Israel

[whelk]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think it's fair to say there's religious loons on both sides. The whole conflict is in some way due to religion. 

Quoting Jon Voight opinion on issues is like quoting David Icke.

[egg]

18 minutes ago, whelk said:

Many have tried. Sounds simple but always breaks down.

Maybe Trump will sort after he has sorted Ukraine conflict within 24 hours

 

Yeah. Clinton got close, but things went downhill quickly thereafter, and have gotten worse since. Trump's last attempts were a shit show, so I think it's Biden or nothing. 

Personally, I think it's as difficult as can be, but I appreciate Biden's intentions if nothing else. 

[egg]

20 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

He’s made one of the best analogies made during this discussion. 
 

Whilst every German wasn’t a Nazi, they were who we had to negotiate any ceasefire with. They had to be crushed &  had to surrender to face the consequences of their action. Only after this could Germany could be rebuilt & peace achieved . During this process lots of innocent Germans lost their lives including the elderly, children & even those opposed to the Nazis. Totally innocent Germans died as a result of what the Nazis started & the fact the Allies wanted to crush them & wipe them off the face of the earth. I doubt there were many calls for a “humanitarian pause” or for a Nazi led Germany to live beside the countries it had attacked in a 6 state solution. 
 

 

It's a terrible analogy.

We seem to be back to your belief that only one side have behaved appallingly and need to change. Hamas are scum, but they are not the Nazis. The Israeli government have behaved appallingly, but they are not the Nazis.

Any discussion that focuses just on a change of ethos, attitude and behaviour from one side is pointless. Obama nailed that his interview the other day. 

[badgerx16]

30 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

He’s made one of the best analogies made during this discussion. 
 

Whilst every German wasn’t a Nazi, they were who we had to negotiate any ceasefire with. They had to be crushed &  had to surrender to face the consequences of their action. Only after this could Germany could be rebuilt & peace achieved . During this process lots of innocent Germans lost their lives including the elderly, children & even those opposed to the Nazis. Totally innocent Germans died as a result of what the Nazis started & the fact the Allies wanted to crush them & wipe them off the face of the earth. I doubt there were many calls for a “humanitarian pause” or for a Nazi led Germany to live beside the countries it had attacked in a 6 state solution. 
 

 

Assuming Hamas are the analogue for the Nazis, how many countries, how much of the continent, have they invaded and occupied ?

[Lighthouse]

13 minutes ago, egg said:

It's a terrible analogy.

We seem to be back to your belief that only one side have behaved appallingly and need to change. Hamas are scum, but they are not the Nazis. The Israeli government have behaved appallingly, but they are not the Nazis.

Any discussion that focuses just on a change of ethos, attitude and behaviour from one side is pointless. Obama nailed that his interview the other day. 

No, you’ve taken the analogy far too literally. In fact the Nazis aren’t even in that analogy, the point was that Chamberlain came back from Munich with a piece of paper, proclaiming that it ensured "peace in our time." The point is about the illusion of peace and the idea that it can be achieved through pacifism and signing agreements.

 

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Assuming Hamas are the analogue for the Nazis, how many countries, how much of the continent, have they invaded and occupied ?

Again you’ve missed the point but to answer your question the only thing standing between them and wiping out Israel is the fact that their military is sh*t and Israel’s isn’t.

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Assuming Hamas are the analogue for the Nazis, how many countries, how much of the continent, have they invaded and occupied ?

A more interesting question is how much would they invade and occupy if they had the capability to do so? 

[Lord Duckhunter]

49 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Assuming Hamas are the analogue for the Nazis, how many countries, how much of the continent, have they invaded and occupied ?

Same number as the Nazis had when Chamberlain visited Hitler in 1938. 

[egg]

41 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

No, you’ve taken the analogy far too literally. In fact the Nazis aren’t even in that analogy, the point was that Chamberlain came back from Munich with a piece of paper, proclaiming that it ensured "peace in our time." The point is about the illusion of peace and the idea that it can be achieved through pacifism and signing agreements.

 

North Korea/South Korea?

It's possible. 

The Israel/Palestine thing will never be resolved by war. History tells us that. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Same number as the Nazis had when Chamberlain visited Hitler in 1938. 

But the Israelis have invaded and occupied more. Which is why it is a stupid analogy.

Edited 8 November, 2023 by badgerx16

[egg]

How on earth have ended up with a comparison of Nazi Germany and Hamas? Seems a desperate way to support what's going on. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, egg said:

How on earth have ended up with a comparison of Nazi Germany and Hamas? Seems a desperate way to support what's going on. 

Classic example of Godwin's Law.

[hypochondriac]

22 minutes ago, egg said:

How on earth have ended up with a comparison of Nazi Germany and Hamas? Seems a desperate way to support what's going on. 

You made that comparison when you misread a picture of neville chamberlain. 

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Quoting Jon Voight opinion on issues is like quoting David Icke.

Yeah point taken, but he's obviously not alone in the sentiments he expressed. Those beliefs lie at the very heart of Israel's expansionist policies in the West Bank.

[whelk]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

We laugh but Trump actually kept a lot of peace. Primarily because he was a loose cannon and that uncertainty made people nervous. Being a headcase can have it's advantages on occasion. 

He is a very cowardly character though. Narcissistic with no moral fibre so will need a litttle more than his empty boasts and tantrums to get peace

[egg]

11 minutes ago, whelk said:

He is a very cowardly character though. Narcissistic with no moral fibre so will need a litttle more than his empty boasts and tantrums to get peace

That's true, but Hypo makes a good point. Trump was such a loon that I don't think anyone dared test his patience.. Being crazier than anyone else can be a decent defence tactic.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

He is a very cowardly character though. Narcissistic with no moral fibre so will need a litttle more than his empty boasts and tantrums to get peace

Maybe but it worked pretty well during his first term. It certainly wasn't anywhere near as bad as most predicted (admittedly not all down to him tbf). 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Maybe but it worked pretty well during his first term. It certainly wasn't anywhere near as bad as most predicted (admittedly not all down to him tbf). 

Trump was directly responsible for the agreement with the Taliban that led to the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, with his officials holding talks with them without Allies or the Afghan Government, and as a consequence of these talks pressuring thje Afghans to relase 5000 Taliban prisoners. He then blamed his successor for all the chaos that ensued;

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/US-Withdrawal-from-Afghanistan.pdf

[AlexLaw76]

22 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Trump was directly responsible for the agreement with the Taliban that led to the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, with his officials holding talks with them without Allies or the Afghan Government, and as a consequence of these talks pressuring thje Afghans to relase 5000 Taliban prisoners. He then blamed his successor for all the chaos that ensued;

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/US-Withdrawal-from-Afghanistan.pdf

maybe we should have colonised the country.

[badgerx16]

44 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

maybe we should have colonised the country.

We tried on several occasions during the reign of Queen Victoria, as part of the 'Great Game' with the intention of thwarting Russian expansion. It didn't go well.

GOOGLE "Retreat from Kabul 1842".

Edited 8 November, 2023 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Trump was directly responsible for the agreement with the Taliban that led to the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, with his officials holding talks with them without Allies or the Afghan Government, and as a consequence of these talks pressuring thje Afghans to relase 5000 Taliban prisoners. He then blamed his successor for all the chaos that ensued;

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/US-Withdrawal-from-Afghanistan.pdf

I'm not going into the details of that but it didn't happen under trump and even if he was responsible for it, it's got little to do with peace which is what I was talking about. 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm not going into the details of that but it didn't happen under trump and even if he was responsible for it, it's got little to do with peace which is what I was talking about. 

Of course it has to do with 'peace', and Trump; it is a peace agreement that Trump saddled us with, an example of his approach to international relations. What sort of 'peace' agreement do you think he would offer Ukraine ? Do you honestly think he could bring a lasting solution to the Israel/Paleastinian conflict ?

[AlexLaw76]

5 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Of course it has to do with 'peace', and Trump; it is a peace agreement that Trump saddled us with, an example of his approach to international relations. What sort of 'peace' agreement do you think he would offer Ukraine ? Do you honestly think he could bring a lasting solution to the Israel/Paleastinian conflict ?

Should we have stayed forever in Afghanistan? 

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Should we have stayed forever in Afghanistan? 

No.

HTH

[hypochondriac]

8 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Of course it has to do with 'peace', and Trump; it is a peace agreement that Trump saddled us with, an example of his approach to international relations. What sort of 'peace' agreement do you think he would offer Ukraine ? Do you honestly think he could bring a lasting solution to the Israel/Paleastinian conflict ?

Afghanistan is not currently at war with the west. They have some terrible people in charge but that's for the to sort out. I don't want to go into some conversation about what trump is or is not responsible for because it's boring and there's arguments on both sides. 

 

It doesn't need saying but Trump has loads of faults but he didn't drag America into loads of wars unlike many other presidents which was my point. Whether he was responsible for leaving Afghanistan in the manner they did doesn't change that. 

Edited 9 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[whelk]

48 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Afghanistan is not currently at war with the west. They have some terrible people in charge but that's for the to sort out. I don't want to go into some conversation about what trump is or is not responsible for because it's boring and there's arguments on both sides. 

 

It doesn't need saying but Trump has loads of faults but he didn't drag America into loads of wars unlike many other presidents which was my point. Whether he was responsible for leaving Afghanistan in the manner they did doesn't change that. 

You could argue Putin was only empowered to invade Ukraine by US showing less of an appetite for overseas intervention 

[Toadhall Saint]

On 08/11/2023 at 14:01, egg said:

How on earth have ended up with a comparison of Nazi Germany and Hamas? Seems a desperate way to support what's going on. 

There is absolutely no justification to what is going on now - none, zero. There was some/a little a few weeks ago but now...........? The ones that do support are no better than those in Germany that turned a blind eye to the concentration camps.

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

There is absolutely no justification to what is going on now - none, zero. There was some/a little a few weeks ago but now...........? The ones that do support are no better than those in Germany that turned a blind eye to the concentration camps.

Reported today that Hamas have little or no presence in north Gaza and Israel have been effective. Your perspective will differ massively from the average Israeli.

And dont  be so daft with your concentration camp comparison. The stupidest post on this thread so far

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Reported today that Hamas have little or no presence in north Gaza ........

Maybe they have moved to the south.

"He that fights then runs away lives to fight another day".

[hypochondriac]

29 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Maybe they have moved to the south.

"He that fights then runs away lives to fight another day".

Quite possibly but that's what Israel wanted so they may have achieved their objective then. 

[egg]

29 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Maybe they have moved to the south.

"He that fights then runs away lives to fight another day".

I think that's very likely. I posed the question before as to what happens in the south (and the people there) once Israel have finished with the north. We don't know whether the tunnels run the length of the strip, but if they do, it's possible that much of Hamas is away from the north. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Quite possibly but that's what Israel wanted so they may have achieved their objective then. 

Have they though if Hamas have relocated? They would then be amongst an even more concentrated population in the South.

[Toadhall Saint]

40 minutes ago, whelk said:

Reported today that Hamas have little or no presence in north Gaza and Israel have been effective. Your perspective will differ massively from the average Israeli.

And dont  be so daft with your concentration camp comparison. The stupidest post on this thread so far

Not daft at all or stupid thanks - sounds like I might have touched a nerve tho?

[whelk]

35 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Not daft at all or stupid thanks - sounds like I might have touched a nerve tho?

Yeah just like Nazis torturing and doing experiments on children because they were Jewish. Beyond comical mate but feel free to carry on your hysterics. 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yeah just like Nazis torturing and doing experiments on children because they were Jewish. Beyond comical mate but feel free to carry on your hysterics. 

People like that know exactly what they're doing when they use that language. Just unfettered jew hate. 

[hypochondriac]

47 minutes ago, egg said:

Have they though if Hamas have relocated? They would then be amongst an even more concentrated population in the South.

The post from here a few weeks ago baiut creating a buffer zone between Gaza and Israel may be accurate. Would probably make their people safer. 

[badgerx16]

11 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yeah just like Nazis torturing and doing experiments on children because they were Jewish. Beyond comical mate but feel free to carry on your hysterics. 

 

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

People like that know exactly what they're doing when they use that language. Just unfettered jew hate. 

Nothing of the sort. The point being made was actually the reverse, people denying the suffering of Palestinians were being compared with people who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

 

Nothing of the sort. The point being made was actually the reverse, people denying the suffering of Palestinians were being compared with people who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust.

If it wasn't the Jews involved in this no one would be grasping to make the same comparisons. Bunch of Africans massacred last week by Islamists and nothing about a new holocaust or bringing up concentration camps. It's transparent why it's being done. 

Edited 9 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

If it wasn't the Jews involved in this no one would be grasping to make the same comparisons. Bunch of Africans massacred last week by Islamists and nothing about a new holocaust or bringing up concentration camps. It's transparent why it's being done. 

So what you are saying is that by virtue of offering support to the Palestinian civilan population you are de facto anti-Semitic? That is over simplistic in the extreme, if not downright insulting.

The only mention of concentration camps was in the context of Holocaust deniers.

Edited 9 November, 2023 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So what you are saying is that by virtue of offering support to the Palestinian civilan population you are de facto anti-Semitic? That is over simplistic in the extreme, if not downright insulting.

The only mention of concentration camps was in the context of Holocaust deniers.

No I didn't say that. Evoking the Holocaust and concentration camps in this context is the anti-semitic bit and it's not the first time on this thread. It's also all over social media and from certain left wing commentators. Like I said, they know why they're doing it and why they don't use it in other circumstances. 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No I didn't say that. Evoking the Holocaust and concentration camps in this context is the anti-semitic bit and it's not the first time on this thread. It's also all over social media and from certain left wing commentators. Like I said, they know why they're doing it and why they don't use it in other circumstances. 

There has been no anti Semitism on this thread. Anti Zionism, yes, ditto islamaphobia and plenty of nonsense. 

Edited 9 November, 2023 by egg

[badgerx16]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67366031

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

There has been no anti Semitism on this thread. Anti Zionism, yes, ditto islamaphobia and plenty of nonsense. 

Sure pal. I haven't seen you personally make holocaust or concentration camp comparisons so I don't consider you antisemitic, just misguided and wrong. 

 

Edited 9 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[Lighthouse]

30 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Nothing of the sort. The point being made was actually the reverse, people denying the suffering of Palestinians were being compared with people who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust.

Nobody is denying the suffering of Palestinians, this is probably the most frequent straw man I’ve seen in the last month. There is nothing but media coverage of the conflict and the suffering in Gaza. There is no valid holocaust comparison here, you might as well say it’s akin to ignoring a letter calling you up for jury duty.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

 

Nothing of the sort. The point being made was actually the reverse, people denying the suffering of Palestinians were being compared with people who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust.

Yeah understood that bs thanks. What are Hamas? the resistance?

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yeah understood that bs thanks. What are Hamas? the resistance?

Brave freedom fighters. 

[egg]

29 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yeah understood that bs thanks. What are Hamas? the resistance?

That was arguably the case pre  7/10, but they're firmly in the terrorist category for me now. 

 

[egg]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Sure pal. I haven't seen you personally make holocaust or concentration camp comparisons so I don't consider you antisemitic, just misguided and wrong. 

 

Ha!! Says the most confused man on the forum. Keep your blue and white flag flying pal. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, egg said:

There has been no anti Semitism on this thread. 

There has. You may have turned a blind eye to it because of the poster concerned, but holding Jews responsible for Israeli Government policy is by international norms, anti semitic. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

 

Nothing of the sort. The point being made was actually the reverse, people denying the suffering of Palestinians were being compared with people who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust.

Who is denying the suffering of Palestinian people? 

[AlexLaw76]

Very odd how London is used as a stomping ground for action in a whole other country, that has no involvement with the UK

we do love political posturing….. probably all we have left

Edited 9 November, 2023 by AlexLaw76