Israel

[aintforever]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

Fair enough. Probably best to get people on their side rather than piss people off then...

I don’t think it’s about taking sides, more letting the government know what they think. 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, trousers said:

Fair enough. Probably best to get people on their side rather than piss people off then...

If a million people are turning up, it seems like they've got a lot of people on their side. They won't get the government on side as those million people aren't going with their flow. 

[trousers]

5 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I don’t think it’s about taking sides, more letting the government know what they think. 

But, surely, the more people they can get onboard with the cause, the more likely the government are to listen to them?

Edited 4 November, 2023 by trousers

[aintforever]

5 minutes ago, trousers said:

But, surely, the more people they can get onboard with the cause, the more likely the government are to listen to them?

Maybe you should write a letter to the organisers to let them know.

[Turkish]

18 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Publicity for the march not the war you bellend. People doing these things obviously want as many people to see and hear them as possible.

What’s the protest about?

Bit rich you calling people bellends when you think the war only started because the Israeli government were trying to save face for not being ready for the Hamas attacks on 7/10.

that’s one of the biggest bellend comments you’ve ever made, which is quite some achievement. 

[whelk]

Look at these cunts

https://x.com/hearnimator/status/1720852850387894665?s=46&t=t-JdmEIKBz0VQY714SRLhQ

[Turkish]

43 minutes ago, egg said:

You've shifted your position Del. If you're saying that the organisers knew that the protests may cause disruption, of course they did. That much is obvious. That's a world away from your original point that the purpose of the protests "is simply an attempt to cause mass disruption". 

The possible counter protest has been mentioned after the protest was announced. I'd hazard a guess that the motivation for that is almost entirely to cause disruption. 

 

 

That’s exactly what the counter protest is for.

My original position wasn’t correct, probably badly worded on my part. My point is that it’s highly likely there will be a lot of people there, now from opposite sides, who will cause problems, by choosing that day and time then it’s gives those a platform to do just that. If youre an organiser you really should think about that rather than just hope it all goes well and if it doesn’t leave it to the police to sort

Edited 4 November, 2023 by Turkish

[aintforever]

11 minutes ago, Turkish said:

What’s the protest about?

Bit rich you calling people bellends when you think the war only started because the Israeli government were trying to save face for not being ready for the Hamas attacks on 7/10.

that’s one of the biggest bellend comments you’ve ever made, which is quite some achievement. 

It’s not the reason it started but I still think the severity and nature of the response has plenty to do with the political situation Netanyahu has found himself in. A main responsibility of any government is to keep its people safe and Israel were caught with their pants down big time. An expert on the Middle East was saying that exact thing the other day on radio 5. The IDF need to be seen to be getting revenge whatever their long-term strategy.

If you don’t know what they are protesting about by now there really is no help for you.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

That’s exactly what the counter protest is for.

My original position wasn’t correct, probably badly worded on my part. My point is that it’s highly likely there will be a lot of people there now from opposite sides who will cause problems, by choosing that day and time then it’s gives those a platform to do just that. If your an organiser you really should think about that rather than just hope it all goes well and if it doesn’t leave it to the police to sort

Seeing the way that those idiots have behaved today, and knowing about the counter, the risk has definitely increased. If I was the organiser, I'd be reflecting on my decision. 

[Weston Super Saint]

55 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Think they just want to stop innocent people getting killed.

Not making much difference on that front.

[Turkish]

35 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It’s not the reason it started but I still think the severity and nature of the response has plenty to do with the political situation Netanyahu has found himself in. A main responsibility of any government is to keep its people safe and Israel were caught with their pants down big time. An expert on the Middle East was saying that exact thing the other day on radio 5. The IDF need to be seen to be getting revenge whatever their long-term strategy.

If you don’t know what they are protesting about by now there really is no help for you.

I feel like it’s not the first time I’ve had to explain this to you. 
 

 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Maybe you should write a letter to the organisers to let them know.

Not so sure that's a great idea given how shite the postal service is here in deepest darkest Devon...

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, aintforever said:

It’s not the reason it started but I still think the severity and nature of the response has plenty to do with the political situation Netanyahu has found himself in. A main responsibility of any government is to keep its people safe and Israel were caught with their pants down big time. An expert on the Middle East was saying that exact thing the other day on radio 5. The IDF need to be seen to be getting revenge whatever their long-term strategy.

If you don’t know what they are protesting about by now there really is no help for you.

So you agree that Israel is justified in its invasion of Gaza to 'wipe out Hamas' and therefore keep its people safe?

[egg]

28 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

So you agree that Israel is justified in its invasion of Gaza to 'wipe out Hamas' and therefore keep its people safe?

This won't keep Israel safe. Safadi hit the nail on the head yesterday in the press conference. 

Obama said something quite interesting yesterday about everyone in the debate (social media mentioned) understanding nuances and listening to all perspectives. It's a shame he couldn't do more to solve the issue when he had a chance. 

https://x.com/YonahLieberman/status/1720816170792562947?s=20

[hypochondriac]

12 hours ago, egg said:

Seeing the way that those idiots have behaved today, and knowing about the counter, the risk has definitely increased. If I was the organiser, I'd be reflecting on my decision. 

Yes but it's not like it wasn't entirely predictable. 

[aintforever]

3 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

So you agree that Israel is justified in its invasion of Gaza to 'wipe out Hamas' and therefore keep its people safe?

I think their blatant disregard for the value of innocent Palestinian lives will make them less safe.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

I think their blatant disregard for the value of innocent Palestinian lives will make them less safe.

I'm sure you do.  Just like you thought taking out ISIS would make the world less safe.

So what's your suggestion for how they could have kept their people safe before 7/10?

[aintforever]

9 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I'm sure you do.  Just like you thought taking out ISIS would make the world less safe.

So what's your suggestion for how they could have kept their people safe before 7/10?

I never said that about ISIS, you are just making shit up.

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I never said that about ISIS, you are just making shit up.

Fair enough - at least we know you are happy for one terrorist group to be eliminated so far as is possible.

So what's your suggestion for how they could have kept their people safe before 7/10?

Edited 5 November, 2023 by Weston Super Saint

[aintforever]

36 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

So what's your suggestion for how they could have kept their people safe before 7/10?

I wouldn’t keep stealing more Palestinian land and building more illegal settlements for a start. Israel obviously have no interest in a two state solution as long as they keep doing that. I get the reasons for the blockade but as long as the Palestinians have no hope they will bound to turn to extremism. 

Edited 5 November, 2023 by aintforever

[Weston Super Saint]

31 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I wouldn’t keep stealing more Palestinian land and building more illegal settlements for a start. Israel obviously have no interest in a two state solution as long as they keep doing that. I get the reasons for the blockade but as long as the Palestinians have no hope they will bound to turn to extremism. 

Bless you for not understanding (although I appreciate it is another complex subject).

From Hamas's Charter, article 13 this is what they say about the 'peace solution' and therefore a two state solution :

Quote

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

.....

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time(27), an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game.....

I've made the relevant bit stand out for you.

Whilst I appreciate that the charter is over 20 years old, I don't believe Hamas have changed their mind on this issue and their past and recent actions have certainly leant towards the fact that they haven't softened their position - unless you have any evidence to the contrary?

It's cute that you lay the blame solely at the feet of the Israelis, but shows your lack of understanding.

Instead of continually deflecting, you've previously stated "A main responsibility of any government is to keep its people safe", so why are you so determined not to answer the question "So what's your suggestion for how they could have kept their people safe before 7/10?"

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

I wouldn’t keep stealing more Palestinian land and building more illegal settlements for a start. Israel obviously have no interest in a two state solution as long as they keep doing that. I get the reasons for the blockade but as long as the Palestinians have no hope they will bound to turn to extremism. 

There was basically a 2 state solution as far as Gaza was concerned.

Hamas actions on 7/10 proved that they aren’t interested in a two state solution, their actions have made it even less likely. They’ve probably pushed a negotiated settlement back a couple of generations. 

Edited 5 November, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[egg]

35 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

There was basically a 2 state solution as far as Gaza was concerned.

Hamas actions on 7/10 proved that they aren’t interested in a two state solution, their actions have made it even less likely. They’ve probably pushed a negotiated settlement back a couple of generations. 

Gaza was a million miles from being an independent/free state. West Bank ditto. 

[harvey]

20 hours ago, whelk said:

Look at these cunts

https://x.com/hearnimator/status/1720852850387894665?s=46&t=t-JdmEIKBz0VQY714SRLhQ

That's disgusting, the police should be dragging those scumbags out of the way, but they don't because they're too scared of their own shadows.

[benjii]

 

 

 

[aintforever]

18 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Bless you for not understanding (although I appreciate it is another complex subject).

From Hamas's Charter, article 13 this is what they say about the 'peace solution' and therefore a two state solution :

I've made the relevant bit stand out for you.

Whilst I appreciate that the charter is over 20 years old, I don't believe Hamas have changed their mind on this issue and their past and recent actions have certainly leant towards the fact that they haven't softened their position - unless you have any evidence to the contrary?

It's cute that you lay the blame solely at the feet of the Israelis, but shows your lack of understanding.

Instead of continually deflecting, you've previously stated "A main responsibility of any government is to keep its people safe", so why are you so determined not to answer the question "So what's your suggestion for how they could have kept their people safe before 7/10?"

Bless you for not understanding but I was talking about Palestinian people not Hamas. Unless the reason WHY groups like Hamas get so much support is deal with there will always be a security threat to Israel and another 7/10.

I did answer your question, the best start Israel can make to keeping their people safe is to stop stealing land and building illegal settlements whilst making Palestinians live in a world of shit under the blockade. If they have no hope of a decent life some are bound to want to take up arms and join groups like Hamas.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Bless you for not understanding but I was talking about Palestinian people not Hamas. Unless the reason WHY groups like Hamas get so much support is deal with there will always be a security threat to Israel and another 7/10.

I did answer your question, the best start Israel can make to keeping their people safe is to stop stealing land and building illegal settlements whilst making Palestinians live in a world of shit under the blockade. If they have no hope of a decent life some are bound to want to take up arms and join groups like Hamas.

It's inconceivable that intelligent people seem to think that this Israeli action and the ongoing treatment of Palestinians in the west bank/east Jerusalem will bring peace to Israel. It'll bring generations of violence. I saw a young lad in a clip the other day distraught by the bombing of his home, and vowing vengeance. He was about 11 or 12. There'll be tens of thousands of survivors of this episode that will vow to do the same, and seek to do so. They'll seek it in accordance with what's available to them. Whilst many won't want to accept it, the Israeli's do the same. The difference is the scale of the damage that each side can inflict on the other. 

Back to the main point, the root cause for Palestinians is oppression and occupation. Addressing that is the starting point for any chance of peace from the Palestinian side. Having destroyed at least half of Gaza, and satisfied themselves that they've eradicated Hamas as a viable threat, you'd hope that the Israeli's would then be willing to talk. 

[Weston Super Saint]

15 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Bless you for not understanding but I was talking about Palestinian people not Hamas. Unless the reason WHY groups like Hamas get so much support is deal with there will always be a security threat to Israel and another 7/10.

I did answer your question, the best start Israel can make to keeping their people safe is to stop stealing land and building illegal settlements whilst making Palestinians live in a world of shit under the blockade. If they have no hope of a decent life some are bound to want to take up arms and join groups like Hamas.

Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout.

Deflection, deflection, deflection.

Although I do love your simplistic view of the peace process. Basically, you want it to happen so it should. Forget hundreds of years of land grabs and tensions, aintclever wants it to happen so nothing should get in the way.

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout.

Deflection, deflection, deflection.

Although I do love your simplistic view of the peace process. Basically, you want it to happen so it should. Forget hundreds of years of land grabs and tensions, aintclever wants it to happen so nothing should get in the way.

It's not deflection. It's the reality. Sure, the peace process ain't straightforward, but it shouldn't be hard to comprehend that destroying Gaza, it's infrastructure, it's people's hope and future, and killing thousands of people might just cause problems down the road for the Israeli people. 

[aintforever]

24 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout.

Deflection, deflection, deflection.

Although I do love your simplistic view of the peace process. Basically, you want it to happen so it should. Forget hundreds of years of land grabs and tensions, aintclever wants it to happen so nothing should get in the way.

I'm not pretending it's simple but the bottom line is if you steal peoples land and force them to live in a world of shit some of them will want to kill you.  Whatever the history and complexities that was the situation prior to 7/10, it was simply not sustainable.

[Weston Super Saint]

17 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I'm not pretending it's simple but the bottom line is if you steal peoples land and force them to live in a world of shit some of them will want to kill you.  Whatever the history and complexities that was the situation prior to 7/10, it was simply not sustainable.

It could also be argued that the Israeli occupation of the West bank has meant the Israeli Government has kept it's people safe - the main responsibility you have stated for their government.

What is your solution for peace with Hamas - whose stated intention is that Israel must be completely destroyed until no Jews live in Palestine any longer?  That's without the 'world of shit' you refer to.

[Lighthouse]

46 minutes ago, egg said:

It's not deflection. It's the reality. Sure, the peace process ain't straightforward, but it shouldn't be hard to comprehend that destroying Gaza, it's infrastructure, it's people's hope and future, and killing thousands of people might just cause problems down the road for the Israeli people. 

How much of that have they done in Iran?

[egg]

9 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

How much of that have they done in Iran?

If you want to play poke the supporters, how much harm have Hamas caused the US? 

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

How much of that have they done in Iran?

Exactly. And if anything Iran is more of a serious threat. The idea that Palestine would just play nice if Israel hadn't take steps to defend itself is a nonsense. 

[hypochondriac]

23 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Yes but it's not like it wasn't entirely predictable. 

And sure as night follows day. Let's cross our fingers for no ugly scenes but anyone saying this so called protest isn't designed to provoke something like this is living on another planet 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, egg said:

If you want to play poke the supporters, how much harm have Hamas caused the US? 

Is the US’s stated aim to obliterate the sub-human Gazans off the face of the earth?

[egg]

20 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Is the US’s stated aim to obliterate the sub-human Gazans off the face of the earth?

No, but Israel are doing it with their weapons.

Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah haven't got the capacity to wipe anyone off the face of the earth, even if they actually wanted to. 

Israel, with US support have. And they are. 

[badgerx16]

23 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I'm sure you do.  Just like you thought taking out ISIS would make the world less safe.

ISIS affiliates were responsible for 4 of the 10 most deadly terrorist acts worldwide in 2022. Terrorist ideologies don't die that easily.

Edited 6 November, 2023 by badgerx16

[whelk]

28 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

ISIS affiliates were responsible for 4 of the 10 most deadly terrorist acts worldwide in 2022. Terrorist ideologies don't die that easily.

So do you think ISIS are stronger or weaker than 5 years ago?

[Weston Super Saint]

32 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

ISIS affiliates were responsible for 4 of the 10 most deadly terrorist acts worldwide in 2022. Terrorist ideologies don't die that easily.

Who carried out the other 6 out of 10 and in the name of what cause?

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

And sure as night follows day. Let's cross our fingers for no ugly scenes but anyone saying this so called protest isn't designed to provoke something like this is living on another planet 

And when there’s a tear up the Soggy’s of this world will be clutching their pearls & blaming  “the far right”. Hopefully, this will be the final straw & the organisers will reconsider. It will be interesting to see how plod police any counter demonstration. 

[harvey]

10 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

And when there’s a tear up the Soggy’s of this world will be clutching their pearls & blaming  “the far right”. Hopefully, this will be the final straw & the organisers will reconsider. It will be interesting to see how plod police any counter demonstration. 

Oh no doubt it'll be a completely different reaction from the police.....there'll be mass arrests and  claiming that they're inciting violence.

Edited 6 November, 2023 by harvey
Edit

[whelk]

4 hours ago, egg said:

I saw a young lad in a clip the other day distraught by the bombing of his home, and vowing vengeance. He was about 11 or 12. There'll be tens of thousands of survivors of this episode that will vow to do the same, and seek to do so.

And how do you think Israelis think when they receive a WhatsApp of their mum being beheaded and celebrating it? Let’s negotiate and ceasefire so they can re-arm and do it again? Israel isn’t dancing when civilians die either - Hamas caused it and Palestinians are getting fucked as everyone knew would happen.

Your long term argument is no doubt correct but think you have no idea of the pain and anger Israel feel. And don’t give a shit about McDonald’s protests in Oxford Street.  They are a nation of ‘no one likes us we don’t care’

 

[harvey]

It's amazing how quickly the 1400 Israelis who were butchered by Hamas have been forgotten by the MSM.

As an American Jew commented recently, they gave those murdered one or maybe two days sympathy, but since then.....

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

So do you think ISIS are stronger or weaker than 5 years ago?

Ask the people in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mali, Niger, and Burkina Faso.

Edited 6 November, 2023 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Who carried out the other 6 out of 10 and in the name of what cause?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/486876/the-20-worst-terrorist-attacks-by-fatalities-and-injuries/

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, egg said:

No, but Israel are doing it with their weapons.

Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah haven't got the capacity to wipe anyone off the face of the earth, even if they actually wanted to. 

Israel, with US support have. And they are. 

No they aren’t. Current estimates are around 10,000 Gazans killed in the month this conflict has been ongoing. Horrific but if they really wanted to kill as many civilians as possible, they could have done that in half an hour.

Hamas, without any heavy armour or an air force, managed to kill 15% of that total in half a day.

 

You’ve got it completely arse about face with regards to who is trying to do what. 

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/486876/the-20-worst-terrorist-attacks-by-fatalities-and-injuries/

Loathe to quote Trump about shit hole countries but they aren’t terrorist threat to western civilians. Yes SOG their lives are worthless and I love Katie Hopkins

[badgerx16]

29 minutes ago, harvey said:

It's amazing how quickly the 1400 Israelis who were butchered by Hamas have been forgotten by the MSM.

As an American Jew commented recently, they gave those murdered one or maybe two days sympathy, but since then.....

Nobody has forgotten them, people are wondering how many innocent people will have to pay the price as a consequence of violence from both sides.

[hypochondriac]

It's interesting how these many, thousands of people were not out on the streets protesting to anywhere near the same extent when many more Muslims were being killed in Yemen or Syria for example. I wonder what it is about this lot of killings in particular that has inspired such protest? Hmm.