Israel

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You don't think that some people on the left have a history of anti semitism? 

Do any on the right ?

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Do any on the right ?

What does that have to do with what I said? Rallyboy is claiming it's ridiculous to say that some on the left have a problem with antisemitism. Antisemitism on the right isn't relevant. 

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What does that have to do with what I said? Rallyboy is claiming it's ridiculous to say that some on the left have a problem with antisemitism. Antisemitism on the right isn't relevant. 

Balance. The last couple of pages have many assertions that "plenty on the left" hold anti-Semitic views, implying it is a problem for that side of the political spectrum. The reality is that both sides have a problem with some parts holding such opinions, and villifying one without the other is taking a partisan stance.

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Loads of people on the left have a history of antisemitism because they view the Jews as powerful and they buy into power dynamics where you can't be opressed if you have power (hence racism is no longer prejudice against someone due to their race and a redefinition of prejudice + power). It's simply incorrect to state that people who view the world through that lens don't consider the Jews to be not part of the oppressed class. That very much is what many think. Not everyone like I said but not an insignificant amount, it's been all over social media for weeks now. 

But there's also a long heritage of Jewish people in the British solcialist movement. Including fighting facists on Cable Street, where the communist leader was Jewish, there's always been a strong jewish movement in the Labour Party and Israel was founded with some socialist ideals in its DNA, illustrated with the secular kibbutz movement which attracted young British socialists over in the 50s - 80s.

So to call the left anti-jewish because some are, is like calling the Labour party a brexit party because of Kate Hoey or calling the Torys facists because of some nasty loons in the party.

Football fans hissing at White Hart Lane and England fans singing 'I'd rather be a paki than a jew', were they all young socialists.

Let's not make this out to only be a problem of the left.

[Fan The Flames]

43 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

"Compromise". 

Change the dress and flip the wording and that would be the Hilltop Youth.

[Fan The Flames]

58 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You don't think that some people on the left have a history of anti semitism? Maybe we should ask some Jews what they think? Or read the EHRC report? Or you know just go on social media and read some of the clearly anti semitic comments from many prominent people on the left. Or read newspaper articles on the topic or Google where it is covered extensively (I won't waste time pasting the articles on here but suffice to say there's dozens.) There's tons of evidence that some on the left have an antisemitism problem. 

You've gone from loads to some in under an hour.

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

You still don’t get this point, I don’t know how it can be repeated any clearer but I’ll have on last go.

HAMAS DO NOT WANT TO PEACEFULLY EXIST WITH ANY SORT OF JEWISH STATE.

Hamas want the Israelis dead, all of them, clear out Israel completely, wipe out every man woman and child. It’s a holy war. You’re under the exact same misapprehension that you were with ISIS a while back of thinking there should be a peaceful negotiation. Superficially it sounds noble and righteous but it’s complete crap; unless you are willing to state exactly how many Jews you think we should kill as part of this compromise, it’s just a vacuous soundbite.

Where's your source for this.

[hypochondriac]

57 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Balance. The last couple of pages have many assertions that "plenty on the left" hold anti-Semitic views, implying it is a problem for that side of the political spectrum. The reality is that both sides have a problem with some parts holding such opinions, and villifying one without the other is taking a partisan stance.

Of course some people on the right have a problem with antisemitism I thought that was obvious and didn't really need saying. I was talking about some on the lefts problem with it and why they believe it. It's something different from the right with different motivations as baddiel seeks to outline. 

[hypochondriac]

46 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

But there's also a long heritage of Jewish people in the British solcialist movement. Including fighting facists on Cable Street, where the communist leader was Jewish, there's always been a strong jewish movement in the Labour Party and Israel was founded with some socialist ideals in its DNA, illustrated with the secular kibbutz movement which attracted young British socialists over in the 50s - 80s.

So to call the left anti-jewish because some are, is like calling the Labour party a brexit party because of Kate Hoey or calling the Torys facists because of some nasty loons in the party.

Football fans hissing at White Hart Lane and England fans singing 'I'd rather be a paki than a jew', were they all young socialists.

Let's not make this out to only be a problem of the left.

I didn't call the left anti Jewish, neither did I say it was only a problem on the left. You're reading what you want to read. 

[egg]

21 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Where's your source for this.

I think it was their 2017 or so accord. They were elected in 2006 based on a softer position, then went loopier in or around 2017.

Without the usuals piping up about equivalence and whataboutery, one can't ignore that the Israeli settlement policies and general behaviour in West Bank seems to suggest that they ain't keen on allowing a Palestinian state to live in peace either. 

Edited 1 November, 2023 by egg

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

You've gone from loads to some in under an hour.

If you want to play semantics with the words some and loads then I'm happy. To concede that it's some. Both terms are subjective anyway and as I pointed out earlier, it's a not insignificant amount. My some may be your loads anyway. Regardless it's too many whatever the number. 

Edited 1 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

I think it was their 2017 or so accord. They were elected in 2006 based on a softer position, then went loopier in or around 2017.

Without the usuals piping up about equivalence and whataboutery, one can't ignore that the Israeli settlement policies and general behaviour in West Bank seems to suggest that they ain't keen on allowing a Palestinian state to live in peace either. 

Are you suggesting that Hamas had not called for the eradication of Jews prior to 2017? 

[Weston Super Saint]

25 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Where's your source for this.

I'm not sure they publish leaflets or take full page ads out in the local press but there's this :

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html

Quote

HAMAS–the acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (Islamic Resistance Movement)—is the largest and most capable militant group in the Palestinian territories and one of the territories’ two major political parties. HAMAS emerged in 1987 during the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada, as an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestinian branch. The group is committed to armed resistance against Israel and the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in Israel’s place. HAMAS has been the de facto governing body in the Gaza Strip since 2007, when it ousted the Palestinian Authority from power.

 

[hypochondriac]

39 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Change the dress and flip the wording and that would be the Hilltop Youth.

False equivalence. 

[Fan The Flames]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

If you want to play semantics with the words some and loads then I'm happy. To concede that it's some. Both terms are subjective anyway and as I pointed out earlier, it's a not insignificant amount. My some may be your loads anyway. Regardless it's too many whatever the number. 

How do you know the number?

[Fan The Flames]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

False equivalence. 

Why?

[egg]

17 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Are you suggesting that Hamas had not called for the eradication of Jews prior to 2017? 

I've answered the question directed at you. Their 2006 manifesto is clear. So is their later accord. Have a read.

If you say that they changed their mind before their 2017 accord, crack on and post a link please. 

 

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

How do you know the number?

I've seen enough of it from the left myself and what has been reported in the media to see that it's not an insignificant amount. I didn't provide a number. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

I've answered the question directed at you. Their 2006 manifesto is clear. So is their later accord. Have a read.

If you say that they changed their mind before their 2017 accord, crack on and post a link please. 

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. They did change things in 2017. That wasn't the first time they called for the eradication of Jews though. You're acting like they were all fine up until a few years ago when they went loopy and hoodwinked Palestinians into voting for them. Just because they have become explicitly more extreme with their accord didn't mean that was the first time. 

[hypochondriac]

22 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Why?

If you don't know why then I can't help you. 

[Weston Super Saint]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

I've answered the question directed at you. Their 2006 manifesto is clear. So is their later accord. Have a read.

If you say that they changed their mind before their 2017 accord, crack on and post a link please. 

 

Their manifesto was watered down to attract the gullible to vote for them and is not consistent with their charter.

This passage is particularly enlightening :

Quote

The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm

When it comes to Israel, they have this to say :

Quote

As to the objectives: discarding the evil, crushing it and defeating it, so that truth may prevail, homelands revert [to their owners], calls for prayer be heard from their mosques, announcing the reinstitution of the Muslim state. Thus, people and things will revert to their true place.

 

Edited 1 November, 2023 by Weston Super Saint

[hypochondriac]

20 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Their manifesto was watered down to attract the gullible to vote for them and is not consistent with their charter.

This passage is particularly enlightening :

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm

When it comes to Israel, they have this to say :

 

Wow. Those Palestinians must not have known what they were voting for. Masters of deception are Hamas! 

[aintforever]

According to the below Israel actually help set up Hamas, backs up what I heard on the radio yesterday - Israeli supported them to undermine the PLO's attempt at a two state solution:

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

 

[AlexLaw76]

May I be so bold and offer a recommendation to aid the understanding of the political tension in the region?

There is a fine film called "You dont mess with the Zohan"....explains a lot.

 

You are welcome!

[benjii]

If you genuinely believe there is a materially significant quantity of people in the Middle East who want to kill all Jews simply because they are Jews then you have to admit, putting a Jewish state there was a fucking stupid thing to do.

If you don't believe that there is a significant population of people who want to kill all Jews come what may, then by extension you believe there could be a solution. I don't see how anyone can sensibly argue that the current Israeli actions will contribute to a long term solution.

I see the director of the UN New York office has resigned, citing the inability of the UN to recognise a "text book case of genocide" against Palestinians.

[AlexLaw76]

He looks like someone who wants a ceasefire and who you can negotiate with...

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6

[hypochondriac]

This is heartening to see. We coukd do with much more of this from moderates and less of the extremists chanting about killing Israelis. When people like this gain prominence is when the chance for peace increases. 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

52 minutes ago, benjii said:

If you genuinely believe there is a materially significant quantity of people in the Middle East who want to kill all Jews simply because they are Jews then you have to admit, putting a Jewish state there was a fucking stupid thing to do.

If you don't believe that there is a significant population of people who want to kill all Jews come what may, then by extension you believe there could be a solution. I don't see how anyone can sensibly argue that the current Israeli actions will contribute to a long term solution.

I see the director of the UN New York office has resigned, citing the inability of the UN to recognise a "text book case of genocide" against Palestinians.

If you read the charter I linked to earlier, it explains that this is a Jihad to rid Palestine of the Jews.

It's not about what I, or anyone else believes, it's written in the charter as to what should happen.

It also clarifies that ALL followers of Islam MUST assist in this holy war, wherever they live in the world. There is no evidence that this can be negotiated upon amongst believers, let alone non believers.

As Hypo has asked, where is the starting point for negotiations with this stance?

[Toadhall Saint]

Any info on how many Hamas have been killed since Hamas carried out the attack on Israel?

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

If you genuinely believe there is a materially significant quantity of people in the Middle East who want to kill all Jews simply because they are Jews then you have to admit, putting a Jewish state there was a fucking stupid thing to do.

If you don't believe that there is a significant population of people who want to kill all Jews come what may, then by extension you believe there could be a solution. I don't see how anyone can sensibly argue that the current Israeli actions will contribute to a long term solution.

I see the director of the UN New York office has resigned, citing the inability of the UN to recognise a "text book case of genocide" against Palestinians.

There quite clearly, undeniably, unequivocally is a very significant population who wants just that. I just can’t get my head around why people who usually take the more liberal and rational side of the argument are so blind to fundamentalist Islam. It’s literally the exact same people who, on the subject of Russia, quite rightly argue that there is no point in attempting to argue with a man man like Putin.

As for putting a Jewish state there being ‘f**king stupid’, it’s their ancestral homeland, the Israelites have live on those lands since the days of the Pharaohs. Where the exact borders of modern day Israel tie in with their neighbours and their history is obviously a hotly debated issue and Christ knows I don’t have any answers but to say that a state shouldn’t exist there because other people in the area hate them is frankly terrible. 

[egg]

21 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

If you read the charter I linked to earlier, it explains that this is a Jihad to rid Palestine of the Jews.

It's not about what I, or anyone else believes, it's written in the charter as to what should happen.

It also clarifies that ALL followers of Islam MUST assist in this holy war, wherever they live in the world. There is no evidence that this can be negotiated upon amongst believers, let alone non believers.

As Hypo has asked, where is the starting point for negotiations with this stance?

The charter is Hamas.

Hamas are not all Palestinians. 

Benji was not referring to Hamas. He said "If you don't believe that there is a significant population of people who want to kill all Jews come what may, then by extension you believe there could be a solution. I don't see how anyone can sensibly argue that the current Israeli actions will contribute to a long term solution".

 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

There quite clearly, undeniably, unequivocally is a very significant population who wants just that. I just can’t get my head around why people who usually take the more liberal and rational side of the argument are so blind to fundamentalist Islam. It’s literally the exact same people who, on the subject of Russia, quite rightly argue that there is no point in attempting to argue with a man man like Putin.

As for putting a Jewish state there being ‘f**king stupid’, it’s their ancestral homeland, the Israelites have live on those lands since the days of the Pharaohs. Where the exact borders of modern day Israel tie in with their neighbours and their history is obviously a hotly debated issue and Christ knows I don’t have any answers but to say that a state shouldn’t exist there because other people in the area hate them is frankly terrible. 

The only answer is the lovely theory that the Palestinians and the Israeli's have a state each and leave the other alone. The problem is that neither of them want that. 

 

[whelk]

4 hours ago, rallyboy said:

No they don't.

You've either trolling, have made that up for dramatic effect or have been reading too much Facebook, The Daily Mail or listening to what Bob's mad brother-in-law heard down the pub.

A ridiculous claim, that even on a thread of laughable posts stands right up there alongside the maddest.

And the BBC 

A guide to Labour Party anti-Semitism claims https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552

 

[whelk]

5 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I find it hard to understand how anyone could find the idea of moving over 2 million people or more from their homeland funny but we have a poster that does.

Also how hard is it to understand that if you call out the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli government, call for a ceasefire and the need to work towards a peaceful settlement that will lead to compromises from both sides and a two state solution that provides security for both the Israelis and Palestinians is not taking sides?

Fortunately the majority of posters on this thread understand what is being said and don’t feel the need to try inject opinions of others which don’t actually exist. As for the rest of you, you know who you are.

You are always so desperate to group people. Clearly some acceptance issues at play.

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

The only answer is the lovely theory that the Palestinians and the Israeli's have a state each and leave the other alone. The problem is that neither of them want that. 

 

I think most sensible and put a piano on the border and only allow people to play Imagine on it.

[whelk]

22 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Any info on how many Hamas have been killed since Hamas carried out the attack on Israel?

Hard to tell as they are such fucking cowards

[egg]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

I think most sensible and put a piano on the border and only allow people to play Imagine on it.

Very good

🤣😂🤣

[Fan The Flames]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

If you don't know why then I can't help you. 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-condemns-retaliatory-attacks-by-israeli-settlers-against-palestinians-in-the-west-bank

[egg]

4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Their manifesto was watered down to attract the gullible to vote for them and is not consistent with their charter.

This passage is particularly enlightening :

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm

When it comes to Israel, they have this to say :

 

Interesting. This calls for jihad against Israel (and it's eradication). That's not the Jewish people. 

 https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/Data/pdf/PDF_06_032_2.pdf

 

 

[badgerx16]

40 minutes ago, egg said:

Interesting. This calls for jihad against Israel (and it's eradication). That's not the Jewish people. 

 https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/Data/pdf/PDF_06_032_2.pdf

 

 

I wonder if to Hamas that is a semantic difference.

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I wonder if to Hamas that is a semantic difference.

I think they made the difference quite clear a few weeks ago with all those rapings, beheadings and kidnappings. 

[Weston Super Saint]

11 hours ago, egg said:

Interesting. This calls for jihad against Israel (and it's eradication). That's not the Jewish people. 

 https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/Data/pdf/PDF_06_032_2.pdf

 

 

Not sure which part of the 71 page document you are referring to, but on page 2 of the link you gave it states :

Quote

The main points of the Hamas charter: The conflict with Israeli is religious and political: The Palestinian problem is a religious-political Muslim problem and the conflict with Israel is between Muslims and the Jewish “infidels.”

That may just be some clumsy terminology but more likely to be anti semitic ala Soggy and conflating Israel and Jews.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

12 hours ago, egg said:

The charter is Hamas.

Hamas are not all Palestinians. 

Benji was not referring to Hamas. He said "If you don't believe that there is a significant population of people who want to kill all Jews come what may, then by extension you believe there could be a solution. I don't see how anyone can sensibly argue that the current Israeli actions will contribute to a long term solution".

 

Indeed, the Charter is Hamas : https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm

Whilst Hamas are not all Palestinians, they certainly claim that their problems should be addressed by all Muslims, not just those living in Palestine

Quote

 

Article Fourteen

The problem of the liberation of Palestine relates to three circles: the Palestinian, the Arab and the Islamic. Each one of these circles has a role to play in the struggle against Zionism and it has duties to fulfill. It would be an enormous mistake and an abysmal act of ignorance to disregard anyone of these circles. For Palestine is an Islamic land where the First Qibla(29) and the third holiest site(30) are located. That is also the place whence the Prophet, be Allah's prayer and peace upon him, ascended to Heavens(31).

"Glorified be He who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of worship(32) to the Far Distant Place of Worship(33), the neighborhood whereof we have blessed, that we might show him of our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer." Sura XVII (al-Isra,)(34), verse 1.

In consequence of this state of affairs, the liberation of that land is an individual duty binding on all Muslims everywhere(35). This is the base on which all Muslims have to regard the problem; this has to be understood by all Muslims. When the problem is dealt with on this basis, where the full potential of the three circles is mobilized, then the current circumstances will change and the day of liberation will come closer.

When it comes to the 'peace process', this is what Hamas' charter has to say :

Quote

 

Article Thirteen

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

From time to time a clamouring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that conditions, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers?

Their stance seems pretty clear.

Reading through the charter is fascinating (especially the role of women in article 17) and has highlighted to me that one of the biggest issues around this debate is that we, as 'Westerners', want to hold up our 'Western' values, especially around the sanctity of life, and in doing so completely disregard Hamas' interpretation of their Holy teachings.  Hamas expects ALL muslims (all around the world, not just in Gaza) to take up the Jihad for what they believe are 'their' lands.  Therefore, for Hamas, there are no 'innocent' lives in this struggle, so why should Israel regard women and children as innocent?

Obviously, according to 'Western' values that is abhorrent.

[egg]

8 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not sure which part of the 71 page document you are referring to, but on page 2 of the link you gave it states :

That may just be some clumsy terminology but more likely to be anti semitic ala Soggy and conflating Israel and Jews.

 

Yep. Conflict with the infidels - not the death of all Jews.  Jihad against the Israeli state - not the death of all Jews.

Nowhere does it call for the death of all Jews. What it actually says is that all Jews are "worthy of only humiliation and lives of misery" - Living a life of misery is not death. You'll find it there if you read it, but you won't find a call to kill all Jews - something which would be an impossible task even if Hamas had Israel's military machine and their will to use it. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Indeed, the Charter is Hamas : https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm

Whilst Hamas are not all Palestinians, they certainly claim that their problems should be addressed by all Muslims, not just those living in Palestine

When it comes to the 'peace process', this is what Hamas' charter has to say :

Their stance seems pretty clear.

Reading through the charter is fascinating (especially the role of women in article 17) and has highlighted to me that one of the biggest issues around this debate is that we, as 'Westerners', want to hold up our 'Western' values, especially around the sanctity of life, and in doing so completely disregard Hamas' interpretation of their Holy teachings.  Hamas expects ALL muslims (all around the world, not just in Gaza) to take up the Jihad for what they believe are 'their' lands.  Therefore, for Hamas, there are no 'innocent' lives in this struggle, so why should Israel regard women and children as innocent?

Obviously, according to 'Western' values that is abhorrent.

Yep, the charter was a bit of an eye opener on the culture and mentality. Not aligned with mine, but that is what it is. Yep, it's clear that it wants all the land back. And yep, it's clear that Hamas expects everyone to join the fight... having voted them in once upon a time, I wander if Hamas would argue that everyone should be cool with being a human shield as a way of joining the fight? Possibly.

Regardless, it doesn't call for the death of all Jews. 

[SotonianWill]

So anti-capitalist action are now organising a march on the 11th for both Palestine and against the supposed far right in the UK (You know, the people who respect our countries fallen soldiers on armistice day). Everything is far right these days. 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

16 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep. Conflict with the infidels - not the death of all Jews.  Jihad against the Israeli state - not the death of all Jews.

Nowhere does it call for the death of all Jews. What it actually says is that all Jews are "worthy of only humiliation and lives of misery" - Living a life of misery is not death. You'll find it there if you read it, but you won't find a call to kill all Jews - something which would be an impossible task even if Hamas had Israel's military machine and their will to use it. 

Article 28 states :

Quote

 

Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.

Pretty clear what they think of Jews (not just the ones next door to them in Israel but all Jews that defy Islam).  There are many other examples within the charter where they refer to the Zionist 'spy' institutions such as the Rotary, Lions, etc etc. that exist across the globe as well as the claim of Global control / influence through money.  You know, the standard anti semitic tropes.

The opening passages of the Charter state this :

Quote

 

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." The Imam and Martyr Hassan al-Banna(5) May Allah Pity his Soul

Elimination presumably means just that, rather than giving them a stern telling off.

Article 7 states :

Quote

The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)(18).

Pretty clear that they are calling for the Jews to be killed.

Article 32 makes it clear that Hamas will not tolerate Zionist (Jewish) expansion anywhere else, not just Palestine / Israel :

Quote

 

Hamas is calling upon the Arab and Islamic peoples to act seriously and tirelessly in order to frustrate that dreadful scheme and to make the masses aware of the danger of coping out of the circle of struggle with Zionism. Today it is Palestine and tomorrow it may be another country or other countries. For Zionist scheming has no end, and after Palestine they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates. Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the the best proof of what is said there.

But I get your point, at no point in the charter does it state that Hamas 'wants to kill all Jews'.  It does make it pretty clear that it WILL kill the Jews who undertake expansionist policies - given that Hamas don't believe the Jews should live anywhere, it's pretty clear they are happy to kill all Jews when you link the articles of the Charter together.

Although there is hope of peace.  Article 31 points out that the three religions can co-exist :

Quote

Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow; they would be fed up with each other, to say nothing of members of other religions. The past and the present are full of evidence to that effect.

Well, they can, just as long as the other two religions bow down to Islam and agree it is the 'superior' religion.  Marvellous.

[hypochondriac]

You're really clutching at straws if you don't believe Hamas would do its best to wipe out all Jews if it had the opportunity and the means to do so: 

After some general explanatory language about Hamas’s religious foundation and noble intentions, the covenant comes to the Islamic Resistance Movement’s raison d’être: the slaughter of Jews. “The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

Article 11 spells out why this annihilation of Jews is required. Palestine is described as an “Islamic War”—an endowment predicated on Muslim religious, education, or charitable principles and therefore inviolate to any other peoples or religions. Accordingly, the territory that now encompasses Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank is consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up … This War remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.

In sum, any compromise over this land, including the moribund two-state solution, much less coexistence among faiths and peoples, is forbidden.

 

 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Article 28 states :

Pretty clear what they think of Jews (not just the ones next door to them in Israel but all Jews that defy Islam).  There are many other examples within the charter where they refer to the Zionist 'spy' institutions such as the Rotary, Lions, etc etc. that exist across the globe as well as the claim of Global control / influence through money.  You know, the standard anti semitic tropes.

The opening passages of the Charter state this :

Elimination presumably means just that, rather than giving them a stern telling off.

Article 7 states :

Pretty clear that they are calling for the Jews to be killed.

Article 32 makes it clear that Hamas will not tolerate Zionist (Jewish) expansion anywhere else, not just Palestine / Israel :

But I get your point, at no point in the charter does it state that Hamas 'wants to kill all Jews'.  It does make it pretty clear that it WILL kill the Jews who undertake expansionist policies - given that Hamas don't believe the Jews should live anywhere, it's pretty clear they are happy to kill all Jews when you link the articles of the Charter together.

Although there is hope of peace.  Article 31 points out that the three religions can co-exist :

Well, they can, just as long as the other two religions bow down to Islam and agree it is the 'superior' religion.  Marvellous.

Where's this bit in the article I posted? 

"The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)(18)".

There is a world of difference between killing those infidels that Hamas are in conflict with, and all Jews. Don't get me wrong, the 7/10 attacks and the subsequent threat suggests that Hamas see any Jew/Israeli as fair game.

Anyways, no point in getting bogged down on this. We both agree that Hamas are evil. What we won't agree on is that the Israeli government are evil in a different way. 

[rallyboy]

18 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

You don't think that some people on the left have a history of anti semitism? 

Of course I do, there have definitely been anti-semitic people on the left, as there are across the whole of UK society, it's a sad fact.

But your sweeping claim was

Loads of people on the left have a history of antisemitism 

Which is clearly bollocks, and you know that, because you downgraded that lazy claim to a more accurate 'some', pretty sharpish and then tried to drag the debate off somewhere else as a distraction, which was nice.

Imagine if Soggy claimed that loads of Tories are sex offenders.

We know that some are, but not a large number, so you and his fan club would be all over him for that.

Language matters, especially when it is a key weapon during conflict.

🙂