Israel

[sadoldgit]

5 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I am staying on topic the principle is the same. Who are you to brand the protestor as a few people who are hate filled? I saw enough signs and heard enough chants to understand what was going on it was shameful. 

The few people who go to these marches with extreme views are shameful. But they are only a few amongst tens of thousands. You seem to have a great deal of sympathy for the Jewish population of this country who get caught up in the backlash from this conflict but zero sympathy for Muslims in the same position. I recall on another thread when I said that it was unfair that normal, peaceful Muslims were getting flak because of the terrorist activities your response was that they are all complicit because they weren’t going to the police with information about the attacks! Do you think that ISIS, Hamas etc have some huge WhatsApp group with every Muslim informing them of their activities? These are innocent people caught up in a dreadful situation, just like it is for the Jewish population in the UK.

As for your point about the Palestinians voting in Hamas, you really do need to educate yourself. There hasn’t been an election in Gaza since 2006 and given the demographics hundreds of thousands of the inhabitants of Gaza now would have been below voting age then. 
I see that you used a laughing emoji on my post that stated that some people here believe that an innocent Jewish life is worth more than an innocent Muslim life. One of those people would be you. You are becoming this threads version of Ben-Gvir.

 

Edited 31 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Added text

[whelk]

35 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The longest journey begins with a single step.

You realise he isn’t the president?

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

Of course you havn't, that's my point. Israeli's havn't been forced to live in an effective open prison for the last 15 years and had everything that comes in or out controlled by the people that stole their land. 

 

If only there was a border with Egypt. 

[egg]

23 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If only there was a border with Egypt. 

Why should Egypt take Palestinians? Why should the Palestinians have to go to Egypt?

Perhaps it would be a tad better for the Palestinians if they lived under less oppression...even moderate Israeli's seem to acknowledge that Palestinians have been treated like shit. 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

As for your point about the Palestinians voting in Hamas, you really do need to educate yourself. There hasn’t been an election in Gaza since 2006 and given the demographics hundreds of thousands of the inhabitants of Gaza now would have been below voting age then. 
 

 

There hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006 because the party that was voted in by the people promptly b-anned elections!

Reap what you sow springs to mind.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

There hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006 because the party that was voted in by the people promptly b-anned elections!

Reap what you sow springs to mind.

You make SoG's point for him. A huge chunk of Palestinians weren't of voting age in 2006. They did not vote for Hamas, so did not vote for the breakdown of Gaza democracy. They are not vote for what they have. 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, egg said:

You make SoG's point for him. A huge chunk of Palestinians weren't of voting age in 2006. They did not vote for Hamas, so did not vote for the breakdown of Gaza democracy. They are not vote for what they have. 

 

It's a very weak point.  There are no elections in Oman, Kuwait, UAE, Saudi, Afghanistan, North Korea etc etc, but they don't cross into their neighbour's back yard, attack people at a music festival and claim it's because they didn't vote for the ruling party.

If it's such a big deal, perhaps it answers the question "Why should Palestinians have to go to Egypt".

[egg]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

It's a very weak point.  There are no elections in Oman, Kuwait, UAE, Saudi, Afghanistan, North Korea etc etc, but they don't cross into their neighbour's back yard, attack people at a music festival and claim it's because they didn't vote for the ruling party.

If it's such a big deal, perhaps it answers the question "Why should Palestinians have to go to Egypt".

Strange points.

1 - the behaviour of the Hamas loons on 7/10 has nothing to do with the remaining (vast majority of) Palestinians being stuck with a "government" that they didn't vote for! 

2 - the lack of Gaza democracy doesn't mean that Gaza people who would like a democracy should have to go to Egypt and / or Egypt have to take them.

Jeez. 

 

[benjii]

On 24/10/2023 at 13:19, benjii said:

Long post, but hopefully worthwhile.

* * * * *

I was speaking with a couple of people in the intelligence community this morning. Obviously I won't say who!

Anyway, here is their assessment of what happens next. Further background below.

SCENARIOS

- Best case scenario: IDF pursues ground campaign in Gaza with no further intervention from Iranian proxies. Will take months and result in tens of thousands of civilian deaths. See, e.g. Mosul or Falujah. Will radicalise swathes of young Arabs across the region and cause lots of terrorism in the future. That's the best case. Estimated as relatively unlikely.

- Similarly likely next scenario: IDF pursues Gaza campaign. See above.... plus Iranian proxies react but in a fairly restrained way. A few token rockets but no sustained attack on critical infrastructure. Hezbollah is the big worry. It is Hamas multiplied massively in terms of capability. It has precision weapons and more of them. It could target power stations, water plants, population centres etc. IDF ends up embroiled in a second front in Lebanon as well. See above, plus more radicalisation and economic and social unrest spreading directly inside and outside Israel.

- More likely scenario: scenario 2 above but a bigger response from Hezbollah - attacking infrastructure deeper inside Israel, for example -  and from the Iranian-backed Shia militia in Iraq as well as Yemeni Houthis. Risk of further escalation. Potential hotspots in Kuwait and Bahrain. Potential for US plus allies to have to get directly involved. The ongoing current US deployment in the region is the reason why the Gaza invasion is being delayed.

- Extreme scenario: situation escalates beyond Iranian proxy involvement and into direct Iranian military involvement.  Potential direct attacks on US bases in Kuwait and Bahrain. Triggers GCC defence pact, meaning Saudi and UAE (plus others) enter into war with Iran. Who knows how far that goes....  Considered least likely.

Whatever happens, big wave of terrorism very likely in UK, France, Germany, Turkey etc. in short to medium term.

So, pretty bleak, seeing as the best case is horrible.

To the extent there are positives.... they don't consider Russia has any material resources to spare and is quite fucked militarily in Ukraine. They don't consider China has any appetite to get involved in a war in the middle east. It is sending warships over but that is to protect Chinese energy assets but nothing else. 

WHY DID THIS HAPPEN NOW?

Saudi Arabia wants the region to settle down and to focus on economic growth. Economic growth and stability means Saudi will be regional superpower. Iran does not want Saudi to be regional superpower. Of the Sunni Gulf states, Saudi is the only one with a big population and the hugest natural resources.

Iran and Saudi did a deal in Beijing in March. https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/03/what-you-need-know-about-chinas-saudi-iran-deal

One of the main concerns of Saudis is the Syrian captogen empire. Bashir Assad and his family are making TENS OF BILLIONS of dollars manufacturing and distributing captogen and a lot of it ends up in Saudi. The Hamas attackers were apparently off their nut on Captogen. That Syrian regime has been relying on Russia and Iran over recent years in the Syrian civil war. Saudi wanted Iran to help sort this out but it hasn't. 

Saudi obviously also wanted to ensure the Israel / Palestine situation didn't flare up and to have better relations with Israel, following the accords signed by Bahrain and UAE.

It's become clear that the Saudi / Iran deal was, for Iran, just a way for Iran to buy some time whilst deceiving the Saudis and Iran is simply too paranoid/resentful to allow Saudis to pursue harmonious development plans.

Obviously this ties in with a lot of public speculation, so there is nothing massively sensitive here, but thought it would be interesting to share. Of course, this also doesn't address the question of what a "post-Gaza Israel" ends up being, but if, at least, the local power of Hamas is removed then perhaps the Palestinian Authority and Israel can do some sort of deal.

However, it looks like this could all go quite bad.

Reposting the above from a week ago, seeing as the Houthis have now declared war on Israel. Looks like we may be heading rapidly towards "quite likely" scenario, which is worrying.

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, benjii said:

Reposting the above from a week ago, seeing as the Houthis have now declared war on Israel. Looks like we may be heading rapidly towards "quite likely" scenario, which is worrying.

Thankfully, we have conducted checks on the countless number of people we have accepted from that mental part of the world.

 

oh

Edited 31 October, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[whelk]

It is heartbreaking when you see interviews with Palestinians who have lost everything. Haven’t seen any where reporters asks who do you blame, or do you blame Hamas for provoking these attacks? Probably wouldn’t want to criticise Hamas but I do wonder what the poor things are thinking and any considering alternatives to Hamas?

[egg]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

It is heartbreaking when you see interviews with Palestinians who have lost everything. Haven’t seen any where reporters asks who do you blame, or do you blame Hamas for provoking these attacks? Probably wouldn’t want to criticise Hamas but I do wonder what the poor things are thinking and any considering alternatives to Hamas?

Indeed. The sad thing is that I suspect that many want to see Hamas gone, but obviously not at the price they're paying. At the end it this, Gaza and Hamas won't exist in the form that it was before 7/10, but christ knows what happens then. 

[egg]

13 minutes ago, benjii said:

Reposting the above from a week ago, seeing as the Houthis have now declared war on Israel. Looks like we may be heading rapidly towards "quite likely" scenario, which is worrying.

It's only going one way sadly. Israel won't row backwards, and neither will Palestinian supporters. Worrying times. 

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

Indeed. The sad thing is that I suspect that many want to see Hamas gone, but obviously not at the price they're paying. At the end it this, Gaza and Hamas won't exist in the form that it was before 7/10, but christ knows what happens then. 

Would be good to have some polling on the matter. I really hope that the innocent Palestinians have enough resolve and will to realise how bad Hamas is for them and push for something different. That imo would go some way to improve things eventually. 

[egg]

22 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Would be good to have some polling on the matter. I really hope that the innocent Palestinians have enough resolve and will to realise how bad Hamas is for them and push for something different. That imo would go some way to improve things eventually. 

Can't disagree with that Hypo. The issue is, and as Whelk raised, whether they'll blame Israel or Hamas. I can't help but think that events like today's attack on the refugee camp (that, to take out one man) will leave them blaming Israel and seeing Hamas as their hope of salvation. Who knows. 

Clusterfuck doesn't come close. 

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, whelk said:

You realise he isn’t the president?

You do understand what powers the Speaker has ? Also ihis election is an indication of the direction of travel for the GOP - Mike Johnson was one of the prime movers in the Trump election denial, and then there is the irony of his getting elected instead of Jim Jordan, who was seen as too extreme.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Why should Egypt take Palestinians? Why should the Palestinians have to go to Egypt?

 

The ridiculous point Aint clever made was that Gaza is an “open air prison” & for the last 15 years Israelis have controlled everything that came in and out. He doesn’t appear to know that there’s a border with Egypt. The Israelis withdrew years ago, stuff has been coming in and out via Egypt for years, strange that anyone thinks Isreal have controlled everything that’s gone in and out. 

Edited 31 October, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[badgerx16]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

The ridiculous point Aint clever made was that Gaza is an “open air prison” & for the last 15 years Israelis have controlled everything that came in and out. He doesn’t appear to know that there’s a border with Egypt , surely stuff could come in and out via that route. 

Whilst goods can enter from Egypt, telecommunications, power and water are mostly controlled by Israel. Also, regarding the possibility of people leaving Gaza via that route, Egypt are reluctant to permit that as they fear it will escalate the problems they already have with rebels in northern Sinai.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

Whilst goods can enter from Egypt, telecommunications, power and water are mostly controlled by Israel. Also, regarding the possibility of people leaving Gaza via that route, Egypt are reluctant to permit that as they fear it will escalate the problems they already have with rebels in northern Sinai.

That wasn’t the point he made, his exact words were that for 15 years Gaza “had everything that comes in or out controlled by the people that stole their land”. Which is obviously rubbish.
 

I don’t know about you, but personally if I was a citizen of Gaza I’d have spent the past 18 years building infrastructure that moved supply chains towards Egypt and away from Isreali control. 

[hypochondriac]

22 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That wasn’t the point he made, his exact words were that for 15 years Gaza “had everything that comes in or out controlled by the people that stole their land”. Which is obviously rubbish.
 

I don’t know about you, but personally if I was a citizen of Gaza I’d have spent the past 18 years building infrastructure that moved supply chains towards Egypt and away from Isreali control. 

Let's remember also that fuel and money that could have been used to improve things and help the average person to prosper has been used to build and run weapons or other infrastructure to target Israel. 

[Fan The Flames]

We can't build a railway, we pump shit into rivers, lose a third of our water in leaks, have potholed roads, falling down hospitals and we are in the top ten of GDP.

And LD reckons Gaza in the bottom 10% of GDP will be able to build this stuff in less than two decades.

[benjii]

Brilliant thread from Omid Jalili:

https://twitter.com/omid9/status/1719451267997593645?t=uU3GwmxOI5RDUHBAtvJYyQ&s=19

[Fan The Flames]

13 hours ago, egg said:

Why should Egypt take Palestinians? Why should the Palestinians have to go to Egypt?

Perhaps it would be a tad better for the Palestinians if they lived under less oppression...even moderate Israeli's seem to acknowledge that Palestinians have been treated like shit. 

If the Egyptians let the people from Gaza in to Sinai, that clears Gaza but would they ever be allowed back. Probably no.

[egg]

51 minutes ago, benjii said:

Brilliant thread from Omid Jalili:

https://twitter.com/omid9/status/1719451267997593645?t=uU3GwmxOI5RDUHBAtvJYyQ&s=19

Thanks. That's an interesting iece.

Point 3 is very interesting in terms of his take on the religious fundamentalism which he feels underpins this from the Iranian side. Although that addresses the Iranian motivation to fund a Palestinian fight, it overlooks the Palestinian motivation. I don't buy for one moment that the Palestinians are fighting for the reappearance of the Mahdi rather than independence and release from oppression. 

His proposed solution is regime change in Israel, essentially brought about by international ostracisation of Iran, prompting an uprising in Iran. Basically that'll be Syria on a bigger scale. Is that a sensible solution? 

He also says "The IRI have not changed their behaviour one iota in 44 years. Sanctioning them is like being attacked by a group of zombies and politely asking them if they would consider a vegan diet". Is the same not true of the Israel government in terms of UN resolutions re settlements and the treatment of the Palestinians?

As interesting as it is, it's one man's take. 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

Brilliant thread from Omid Jalili:

https://twitter.com/omid9/status/1719451267997593645?t=uU3GwmxOI5RDUHBAtvJYyQ&s=19

Very interesting and a take that I agree with. It would be good if western nations saw the bigger picture and acted accordingly. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Very interesting and a take that I agree with. It would be good if western nations saw the bigger picture and acted accordingly. 

How do you think that an uprising in Iran would end for the Iranian people? He says "The people on the ground will then take care of the rest". If only it were that easy - look at Syria. 

I also think that we have a fusion of two motivations. The Iranian one, and the Palestinian resistance/vengeance one. Addressing the former without focus on the Israeli policies and activities which (in part at least) underpin the latter, ain't gonna get us very far. 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, egg said:

How do you think that an uprising in Iran would end for the Iranian people? He says "The people on the ground will then take care of the rest". If only it were that easy - look at Syria. 

I also think that we have a fusion of two motivations. The Iranian one, and the Palestinian resistance/vengeance one. Addressing the former without focus on the Israeli policies and activities which (in part at least) underpin the latter, ain't gonna get us very far. 

 

 

We are never going to agree. You see Israel as the aggressor and the reason that the Palestinians attack Israel and I simply don't agree. It's a fundamental difference that is never going to be reconciled. Israel aren't going to stop until they've satisfied their objectives which is to largely destroy Hamas and cripple it's operations for a number of years. Might as well accept that fact and work on what to do next. An uprising in Iran whilst clearly unpredictable may end up being a net positive in the end. I'd certainly like their people to be less opressed. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, egg said:

How do you think that an uprising in Iran would end for the Iranian people? He says "The people on the ground will then take care of the rest". If only it were that easy - look at Syria. 

I also think that we have a fusion of two motivations. The Iranian one, and the Palestinian resistance/vengeance one. Addressing the former without focus on the Israeli policies and activities which (in part at least) underpin the latter, ain't gonna get us very far. 

 

 

So are you hoping that the powers remain in place in Iran? Not trying to be smug but do you care for the oppressed Iranians in same vein that you do Palestinians?

 

[hypochondriac]

27 minutes ago, whelk said:

So are you hoping that the powers remain in place in Iran? Not trying to be smug but do you care for the oppressed Iranians in same vein that you do Palestinians?

 

To be fair, I think he's trying to say that an uprising in Iran will lead to instability and may end up with the people being more oppressed. Personally I don't think that's an argument for it not to happen, but these things do tend to lead to unintended and unforseen occurrences. Of course he threw in some whataboutism criticising Israel but that's standard. 

Edited 1 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

Not all by any means but I can certainly see this line of thinking from a couple of posters on here. From David baddiel's book. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

To be fair, I think he's trying to say that an uprising in Iran will lead to instability and may end up with the people being more oppressed. Personally I don't think that's an argument for it not to happen, but these things do tend to lead to unintended and unforseen occurrences. Of course he threw in some whataboutism criticising Israel but that's standard. 

I know but that is a poor argument. Suck up your oppression cos the West wants a stable Iran, we will concentrate on the oppressed in other areas like Israel/Palestine. Quite flawed.

Iranian rulers are evil

 

 

[sadoldgit]

16 hours ago, egg said:

Why should Egypt take Palestinians? Why should the Palestinians have to go to Egypt?

Perhaps it would be a tad better for the Palestinians if they lived under less oppression...even moderate Israeli's seem to acknowledge that Palestinians have been treated like shit. 

Just read elsewhere that Israel is trying to bribe Egypt to take the Gaza Palestinians into the Sinai by paying off a huge international debt? If true you can just imagine the outage if it was suggested that Israelis should leave their homes and start again in the Sinai desert!

A great deal of the seed cause of this conflict comes from the forced displacement of both current Israelis and Palestinians.

Just unbelievable. What next, clear out the remaining Palestinians from the West Bank?

 

 

[egg]

2 hours ago, whelk said:

So are you hoping that the powers remain in place in Iran? Not trying to be smug but do you care for the oppressed Iranians in same vein that you do Palestinians?

 

Is it our role to instill regime change in other countries? It seems that Iran only becomes it supplies cash and weapons to others. 

The plight if the Iranian people is different to the plight of the Palestinians. 

[Turkish]

59 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Just read elsewhere that Israel is trying to bribe Egypt to take the Gaza Palestinians into the Sinai by paying off a huge international debt? If true you can just imagine the outage if it was suggested that Israelis should leave their homes and start again in the Sinai desert!

A great deal of the seed cause of this conflict comes from the forced displacement of both current Israelis and Palestinians.

Just unbelievable. What next, clear out the remaining Palestinians from the West Bank?

 

 

Just an observation. Despite you claiming to be unbiased and favouring neither side I’ve not seen a single post supporting/concerned for Israel since this all started. Lots of the usual “I read somewhere” comments about Jews, denials of  antisemitism and criticism of others for not caring about dead Muslims but little to nothing in the way of the balanced view you purport. Perhaps I’ve missed them, I hope I have but I think the nearest we got to balance was when you had to tell Mrs Sog who the baddies were when it first kicked off. 

Edited 1 November, 2023 by Turkish

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Just an observation. Despite you claiming to be unbiased and favouring neither side I’ve not seen a single post supporting/concerned for Israel since this all started. Lots of the usual “I read somewhere” comments about Jews, denials of  antisemitism and criticism of others for not caring about dead Muslims but little to nothing in the way of the balanced view you purport. Perhaps I’ve missed them, I hope I have. 

I bet there's a sentence in this thread somewhere calling Hamas bad or something like that. Rather pales into comparison with the reams of posts about any old thing he finds from Corbyn fanboys on social media... 

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I bet there's a sentence in this thread somewhere calling Hamas bad or something like that. Rather pales into comparison with the reams of posts about any old thing he finds from Corbyn fanboys on social media... 

if he does back one over the other that’s fair enough, whelk has been pretty open in his view and whilst not everyone agrees with it he’s at least said why he think that way.
 

I haven’t looked properly but the only thing I can find or remember is a few days after the Hamas initially killed the Israelis his missus asked him who the bad guys were and he said they both are, that’s as close as we’ve got to any condemnation of any acts by Hamas, like I say I hope there are more I’ve missed them. 

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Not all by any means but I can certainly see this line of thinking from a couple of posters on here. From David baddiel's book. 

The line 'this racist mythology that's in the air', is doing a lot of work here, because DB can't just come out and say the left is racist against Jews because he knows this isn't true. So is he saying that against a backdrop of racist thinking the left choose to put the Jews into the baddy group. Because that's just not true either.

The political left don't go around agreeing whose good and whose bad, they can't agree on much. There are the nutters to the far left who wrongly claim jews control money and are therefore part of bad capitalism, there are nutters on the right who thought Hitler was right or who believe in conspiracy theories about groups who control the world. 

There is no left and right in this, although I get the impression that there are forces on the Internet pushing this idea. The question 'who's side are you on' and 'you've got to choose a side' is becoming a thing. I'm not on social media, but my right wing brothers-in-law are and they keeping saying this.

None of this is helpful, the two sides are entrenched enough through religion and race, it doesn't politics thrown into the mix as well.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Is it our role to instill regime change in other countries? It seems that Iran only becomes it supplies cash and weapons to others. 

The plight if the Iranian people is different to the plight of the Palestinians. 

No but if we can encourage and it happens the world will be a better place albeit I get the who knows what might rise up argument. 

[whelk]

10 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

The line 'this racist mythology that's in the air', is doing a lot of work here, because DB can't just come out and say the left is racist against Jews because he knows this isn't true. So is he saying that against a backdrop of racist thinking the left choose to put the Jews into the baddy group. Because that's just not true either.

The political left don't go around agreeing whose good and whose bad, they can't agree on much. There are the nutters to the far left who wrongly claim jews control money and are therefore part of bad capitalism, there are nutters on the right who thought Hitler was right or who believe in conspiracy theories about groups who control the world. 

There is no left and right in this, although I get the impression that there are forces on the Internet pushing this idea. The question 'who's side are you on' and 'you've got to choose a side' is becoming a thing. I'm not on social media, but my right wing brothers-in-law are and they keeping saying this.

None of this is helpful, the two sides are entrenched enough through religion and race, it doesn't politics thrown into the mix as well.

There is a reason why antisemitism was more prevalent in the Labour Party than Conservatives. Clearly not all and not any open doctrine. What is interesting is how many are happy to speak on behalf of Jews and tell them that it’s all in their minds when would never do the same on behalf of other ethnic groups.

[whelk]

16 minutes ago, Turkish said:

whelk has been pretty open in his view and whilst not everyone agrees with it

At this rate I will be losing my leftie tag!

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

The line 'this racist mythology that's in the air', is doing a lot of work here, because DB can't just come out and say the left is racist against Jews because he knows this isn't true. So is he saying that against a backdrop of racist thinking the left choose to put the Jews into the baddy group. Because that's just not true either.

The political left don't go around agreeing whose good and whose bad, they can't agree on much. There are the nutters to the far left who wrongly claim jews control money and are therefore part of bad capitalism, there are nutters on the right who thought Hitler was right or who believe in conspiracy theories about groups who control the world. 

There is no left and right in this, although I get the impression that there are forces on the Internet pushing this idea. The question 'who's side are you on' and 'you've got to choose a side' is becoming a thing. I'm not on social media, but my right wing brothers-in-law are and they keeping saying this.

None of this is helpful, the two sides are entrenched enough through religion and race, it doesn't politics thrown into the mix as well.

Loads of people on the left have a history of antisemitism because they view the Jews as powerful and they buy into power dynamics where you can't be opressed if you have power (hence racism is no longer prejudice against someone due to their race and a redefinition of prejudice + power). It's simply incorrect to state that people who view the world through that lens don't consider the Jews to be not part of the oppressed class. That very much is what many think. Not everyone like I said but not an insignificant amount, it's been all over social media for weeks now. 

Edited 1 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

At this rate I will be losing my leftie tag!

It's honourable and brave to go against the grain of your supposed 'side.' if it's something you believe in. 

Edited 1 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

I find it hard to understand how anyone could find the idea of moving over 2 million people or more from their homeland funny but we have a poster that does.

Also how hard is it to understand that if you call out the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli government, call for a ceasefire and the need to work towards a peaceful settlement that will lead to compromises from both sides and a two state solution that provides security for both the Israelis and Palestinians is not taking sides?

Fortunately the majority of posters on this thread understand what is being said and don’t feel the need to try inject opinions of others which don’t actually exist. As for the rest of you, you know who you are.

[hypochondriac]

"Compromise". 

Edited 1 November, 2023 by hypochondriac

[AlexLaw76]

28 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I find it hard to understand how anyone could find the idea of moving over 2 million people or more from their homeland funny but we have a poster that does.

Also how hard is it to understand that if you call out the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli government, call for a ceasefire and the need to work towards a peaceful settlement that will lead to compromises from both sides and a two state solution that provides security for both the Israelis and Palestinians is not taking sides?

Fortunately the majority of posters on this thread understand what is being said and don’t feel the need to try inject opinions of others which don’t actually exist. As for the rest of you, you know who you are.

How long should a ceasefire last, in your opinion?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Hamas Official Ghazi Hamad: “We Will Repeat the October 7 Attack Time and Again Until Israel Is Annihilated”

 

Ceasefire 😂 What planet are people on? 

[Lighthouse]

27 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Also how hard is it to understand that if you call out the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli government, call for a ceasefire and the need to work towards a peaceful settlement that will lead to compromises from both sides and a two state solution that provides security for both the Israelis and Palestinians is not taking sides?

You still don’t get this point, I don’t know how it can be repeated any clearer but I’ll have on last go.

HAMAS DO NOT WANT TO PEACEFULLY EXIST WITH ANY SORT OF JEWISH STATE.

Hamas want the Israelis dead, all of them, clear out Israel completely, wipe out every man woman and child. It’s a holy war. You’re under the exact same misapprehension that you were with ISIS a while back of thinking there should be a peaceful negotiation. Superficially it sounds noble and righteous but it’s complete crap; unless you are willing to state exactly how many Jews you think we should kill as part of this compromise, it’s just a vacuous soundbite.

[rallyboy]

55 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Loads of people on the left have a history of antisemitism 

 

No they don't.

You've either trolling, have made that up for dramatic effect or have been reading too much Facebook, The Daily Mail or listening to what Bob's mad brother-in-law heard down the pub.

A ridiculous claim, that even on a thread of laughable posts stands right up there alongside the maddest.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

You still don’t get this point, I don’t know how it can be repeated any clearer but I’ll have on last go.

HAMAS DO NOT WANT TO PEACEFULLY EXIST WITH ANY SORT OF JEWISH STATE.

Hamas want the Israelis dead, all of them, clear out Israel completely, wipe out every man woman and child. It’s a holy war. You’re under the exact same misapprehension that you were with ISIS a while back of thinking there should be a peaceful negotiation. Superficially it sounds noble and righteous but it’s complete crap; unless you are willing to state exactly how many Jews you think we should kill as part of this compromise, it’s just a vacuous soundbite.

Yes I remember that now! He went on and on about peaceful negotiations with them. He said for ages how bombing them was a bad idea and that it wouldn't work. Turns out it did work and their group has been destroyed. I wonder how his tactic of negotiation and non violent protest would have worked. Thanks for reminding me. 

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

No they don't.

You've either trolling, have made that up for dramatic effect or have been reading too much Facebook, The Daily Mail or listening to what Bob's mad brother-in-law heard down the pub.

A ridiculous claim, that even on a thread of laughable posts stands right up there alongside the maddest.

You don't think that some people on the left have a history of anti semitism? Maybe we should ask some Jews what they think? Or read the EHRC report? Or you know just go on social media and read some of the clearly anti semitic comments from many prominent people on the left. Or read newspaper articles on the topic or Google where it is covered extensively (I won't waste time pasting the articles on here but suffice to say there's dozens.) There's tons of evidence that some on the left have an antisemitism problem. 

Edited 1 November, 2023 by hypochondriac