Israel

[whelk]

Just now, aintforever said:

Whatever the reason it has had an effect.

Although I guess you know the ideology of some has Jews as sub-human and any slaying is to be celebrated. Some more may convert but not an ideology you can pacify really.

[aintforever]

13 minutes ago, whelk said:

Although I guess you know the ideology of some has Jews as sub-human and any slaying is to be celebrated. Some more may convert but not an ideology you can pacify really.

Exactly. The ideology of some has all westerners as legitimate targets to be slayed, the last thing we need is anything to trigger these nutters off.

[Weston Super Saint]

32 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Exactly. The ideology of some has all westerners as legitimate targets to be slayed, the last thing we need is anything to trigger these nutters off.

Their book is enough to trigger them if they really want the glory of Allah.  

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Their book is enough to trigger them if they really want the glory of Allah.  

Plenty have died due to interpretations of the Bible.

Are the Israelis not simply following 'an eye for an eye' ?

Edited 25 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[aintforever]

19 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Their book is enough to trigger them if they really want the glory of Allah.  

Not just the book, according to one of the 7/7 bombers:

"I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people, we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation."

You must have rocks in your head if you don't think there is a link.

[buctootim]

30 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Their book is enough to trigger them if they really want the glory of Allah.  

It's not quite that simple though. Christians and Jews are considered to believe in the same one God as Muslims and are therefore not infidels and protected according to moderates. But there are various holy texts like the Hadiths which contradict the Koran. The Hadiths were written by a whole host of different 'witnesses' (according to what I've been told, I've no idea of the details) so you can a;lways find something to justify what you want to do anyway. Combine that with the fact that many Jihadis are functionally illiterate and only know what someone wants them to believe and you've got a hot mess.    

Edited 25 October, 2023 by buctootim

[BARCELONASAINT]

The human race really is fucked up. We deserve to be wiped off the face of this planet. As humans we appear to have learnt nothing as we continue to try and destroy our home and each other. The arguments over who is right and who is wrong is baffling......they (we) are killing one another, it's wrong on all fronts full stop.

[AlexLaw76]

One thing their book isn't....a cartoon sketch book.

Very moderate Muslims will threaten your life and put you into hiding forever.

[badgerx16]

So many people putting their trust into something/someone they can never see.

[hypochondriac]

29 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Plenty have died due to interpretations of the Bible.

Are the Israelis not simply following 'an eye for an eye' ?

If you really look into both religions and particularly their followers there really is no modern day comparison between the two. I'd urge you to watch the video I posted earlier, particularly the bit by Sam Harris about halfway through the video where he defines what a jihadist is and why it's impossible to reason with them in any way they would understand. They love death more than we love life and consider it right and completely just for innocents to be slaughtered for their cause. It made me consider things I hadn't done so before. 

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So many people putting their trust into something/someone they can never see.

f-ing madness isn't it

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, BARCELONASAINT said:

The human race really is fucked up. We deserve to be wiped off the face of this planet. As humans we appear to have learnt nothing as we continue to try and destroy our home and each other. The arguments over who is right and who is wrong is baffling......they (we) are killing one another, it's wrong on all fronts full stop.

No we don't. What a silly thing to say. 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

One thing their book isn't....a cartoon sketch book.

Very moderate Muslims will threaten your life and put you into hiding forever.

I had a very good conversation with an extremely intelligent and moderate Muslim once. The conversation got onto Salmon Rushdie and the right to be offensive and I was shocked at how much his tone changed and the aggression in his words when he told me that there was never any circumstance where mocking Islam is justified and that basically Rushdie deserved what he gets. Like I said, this was such a moderate, generally mild mannered man and I did not imagine he would say something like that. We know that that's the very tip of the iceberg. 

[Weston Super Saint]

30 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Not just the book, according to one of the 7/7 bombers:

"I and thousands like me are forsaking everything for what we believe. Our drive and motivation doesn't come from tangible commodities that this world has to offer. Our religion is Islam, obedience to the one true God and following the footsteps of the final prophet messenger. Your democratically-elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security you will be our targets and until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people, we will not stop this fight. We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation."

You must have rocks in your head if you don't think there is a link.

All of that person's drive and motivation comes from their interpretation (what they've been told to think) of their holy book.

You must have rocks in your head if you don't think there is a link.

[buctootim]

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

All of that person's drive and motivation comes from their interpretation (what they've been told to think) of their holy book.

You must have rocks in your head if you don't think there is a link.

There were some good interviews yesterday with captured jihadis saying basically they were used and lied to and ended up being forced to do things against their beliefs. Obviously it was IDF propaganda and the interviewees were probably trying to save their own skins, but they seemed sincere and broken in some cases. 

Edited 25 October, 2023 by buctootim

[egg]

8 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

All of that person's drive and motivation comes from their interpretation (what they've been told to think) of their holy book.

You must have rocks in your head if you don't think there is a link.

"All of their drive" I'd disagree with. Sure, martyrdom flowing from interpretation of Islam will be a driver for some, but one cannot ignore why they're willing to be a martyr. I've watched the first half if that video that Hypo posted up and the fella Sam spends a long time saying that in his opinion Muslims want martyrdom for ideology reasons alone. That overlooks that martyrdom is something that some are willing to succumb to in pursuit of a cause. That cause must logically include vengeance, opposition to occupation, etc. 

[aintforever]

18 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

All of that person's drive and motivation comes from their interpretation (what they've been told to think) of their holy book.

You must have rocks in your head if you don't think there is a link.

Of course there is, there is clearly a link to both.

[Lighthouse]

Presumably all the people worried about terrorist attacks in the UK are equally worried about Islamic and Jewish extremist attacks, given the strong and conflicting support for both Israel and Palestine in this country?

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

"All of their drive" I'd disagree with. Sure, martyrdom flowing from interpretation of Islam will be a driver for some, but one cannot ignore why they're willing to be a martyr. I've watched the first half if that video that Hypo posted up and the fella Sam spends a long time saying that in his opinion Muslims want martyrdom for ideology reasons alone. That overlooks that martyrdom is something that some are willing to succumb to in pursuit of a cause. That cause must logically include vengeance, opposition to occupation, etc. 

If the book didn't tell them they would be martyrs and live forever surrounded by virgins, then they wouldn't want to blow themselves and everyone else up.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

Presumably all the people worried about terrorist attacks in the UK are equally worried about Islamic and Jewish extremist attacks, given the strong and conflicting support for both Israel and Palestine in this country?

Personally, I think Jews, Arabs, and random people in the wrong place at the wrong time will get caught. I think there's a much bigger risk of pro Arab and anti semitic attacks. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

If the book didn't tell them they would be martyrs and live forever surrounded by virgins, then they wouldn't want to blow themselves and everyone else up.

They don't want to blow themselves up for the fun of it Weston. They're willing to die for a cause. 

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, egg said:

They don't want to blow themselves up for the fun of it Weston. They're willing to die for a cause. 

And the 'cause' is religion.

My God's better than your God etc etc.

[whelk]

22 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Presumably all the people worried about terrorist attacks in the UK are equally worried about Islamic and Jewish extremist attacks, given the strong and conflicting support for both Israel and Palestine in this country?

I’m going to Millwall and not worried. New Den nothing like the old Den

[whelk]

18 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

And the 'cause' is religion.

My God's better than your God etc etc.

Surely the Palestinians recognise god is Jewish? If he wasn’t why woudl he have chosen the Jews?

[badgerx16]

48 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

And the 'cause' is religion.

My God's better than your God etc etc.

 

29 minutes ago, whelk said:

Surely the Palestinians recognise god is Jewish? If he wasn’t why woudl he have chosen the Jews ?

Same Holy sites, same scriptural heritage  same prophets, same God.

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

It's not quite that simple though. Christians and Jews are considered to believe in the same one God as Muslims and are therefore not infidels and protected according to moderates. But there are various holy texts like the Hadiths which contradict the Koran. The Hadiths were written by a whole host of different 'witnesses' (according to what I've been told, I've no idea of the details) so you can a;lways find something to justify what you want to do anyway. Combine that with the fact that many Jihadis are functionally illiterate and only know what someone wants them to believe and you've got a hot mess.    

Apparently the Qur’an says nothing about having 72 virgins if you martyr yourself. There is a vague reference to something like that in some Hadiths but I think it is some b/s that we have been fed. As said before, it has more to do with them being prepared to die for a cause, much like the Japanese in WW2.

3 hours ago, aintforever said:

Havn't anti-semitic attacks over here already increased since 7/10? 

The Met said there was a spike in recorded hate crimes after 7/10.

In 2022 there were 15 recorded antisemitic offences between 1st and 18th October. In 2023 they recorded 218.

For Islamophobic offences for the same period it was 42 in 2022 and 103 in 2023.

This article by Israeli historian Raz Segal will probably ruffle a few feathers, but we really need to allow this stuff to be discussed if we agree with it or not.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/24/israel-gaza-palestinians-holocaust

 

Edited 25 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Added text

[CB Fry]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Presumably all the people worried about terrorist attacks in the UK are equally worried about Islamic and Jewish extremist attacks, given the strong and conflicting support for both Israel and Palestine in this country?

I have every confidence SOG will be able to name one immediately, but have there ever been any Jewish extremist attacks in the UK or mainland Europe?

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

 

Same Holy sites, same scriptural heritage  same prophets, same God.

There's only one 'true' god.

[Weston Super Saint]

23 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

I have every confidence SOG will be able to name one immediately, but have there ever been any Jewish extremist attacks in the UK or mainland Europe?

I saw a video of some Orthodox Jews spitting on the floor as they passed a group of Catholics carrying a cross.  Does that count?

[AlexLaw76]

11 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

There's only one 'true' god.

And the one true god is my talking snake, not yours

[whelk]

52 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

I have every confidence SOG will be able to name one immediately, but have there ever been any Jewish extremist attacks in the UK or mainland Europe?

The great belt buckle massacre? Oh no that was the Christians

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

There's only one 'true' god.

So say the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Baird of the land]

Interesting to hear Biden saying he has no confidence the stated Gaza death toll numbers. I have been wondering about news outlets not caveating them in any way.

[Fan The Flames]

3 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

And the one true god is my talking snake, not yours

You worship your cock?

[hypochondriac]

14 hours ago, whelk said:

The great belt buckle massacre? Oh no that was the Christians

I was drinking something when I read this and most of it is now on the floor. 

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I was drinking something when I read this and most of it is now on the floor. 

Ah, bless. And there was me thinking that you didn’t have a sense of humour. Good to see that you can still laugh at yourself even when you lose the argument.

[hypochondriac]

48 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Ah, bless. And there was me thinking that you didn’t have a sense of humour. Good to see that you can still laugh at yourself even when you lose the argument.

Am I off ignore now then? Good for you buddy, working through your impulse control issues. 

[The Kraken]

The world’s most overused ‘Ignore On/Off’ button. Either that or it’s all made up. But nah, can’t be, doesn’t seem the sort.

[badgerx16]

Israel might say it is minimising civilian casualties, but in such an overcrowded environment they know they are bound to happen.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67225204

 

 

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Am I off ignore now then? Good for you buddy, working through your impulse control issues. 

Perhaps you and Whelk should work through your belt buckle fetishes too? 😉 Still, if you can’t have a good old chuckle on a thread about the daily killing of innocent people, what is the world coming to buddy, eh?

 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

37 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Perhaps you and Whelk should work through your belt buckle fetishes too? 😉 Still, if you can’t have a good old chuckle on a thread about the daily killing of innocent people, what is the world coming to buddy, eh?

 

 

Where's @Tamesaint when you need someone to point out to the Mods a post that is completely irrelevant and basically just a personal attack (from someone who apparently is the perpetual victim)?

For the record this is the 'Israel' thread so could equally be about the beauty and tranquility of the country rather than the daily killing of innocent people.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

Perhaps you and Whelk should work through your belt buckle fetishes too? 😉 Still, if you can’t have a good old chuckle on a thread about the daily killing of innocent people, what is the world coming to buddy, eh?

 

 

I expect you privately revel in what is going on. What an opportunity to display such sanctimony.

[benjii]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5d1PSdCMvAzshgwJlUHvxn?si=VKoF-DzlR3aaE8JJRy5vuQ

 

This is well worth a listen for broader context.

[egg]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5d1PSdCMvAzshgwJlUHvxn?si=VKoF-DzlR3aaE8JJRy5vuQ

 

This is well worth a listen for broader context.

Cheers. I'm 15 mins in. Interesting that one of the fella's is ex Al-Qaeda, and the other a former 9/11 conspiracy theorist! 

[inspectorfrost]

On 25/10/2023 at 11:23, whelk said:

You really are a terrorist sympathising prick 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/sharpened-censure-us-calls-suspected-israeli-settler-attack-terrorism-2023-08-06/

[egg]

12 minutes ago, inspectorfrost said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/sharpened-censure-us-calls-suspected-israeli-settler-attack-terrorism-2023-08-06/

Biden has since downgraded violent settlers as perpetrators of "extremist violence", but did say "It has to stop. They have to be held accountable. It has to stop now". 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-condemns-retaliatory-attacks-by-israeli-settlers-against-palestinians-in-the-west-bank

[sadoldgit]

17 hours ago, whelk said:

I expect you privately revel in what is going on. What an opportunity to display such sanctimony.

You can really be a deeply unpleasant individual at times. Why would anyone revel in what has been going on over the last 3 weeks? What is sanctimonious about calling out the killing of innocent people (whichever side of the divide they are from)? What is sanctimonious about the wanting of a ceasefire and more work to be done to find a long lasting peaceful solution to this interminable conflict?

If it makes you feel better to make silly jokes about massacres, knock yourself out. But I’d rather be sanctimonious than someone who thinks it is appropriate to make light of what is turning into genocide.

Netanyahu has now given his forces permission to use live rounds against Israelis who protest against his policies. Feel free to make jokes about belt buckles when the Israelis start killing their own.

[Fan The Flames]

The US have attacked Iranian militia on the Iraq/Syria border after a US base was attacked. Things are popping up over the region.

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

The US have attacked Iranian militia on the Iraq/Syria border after a US base was attacked. Things are popping up over the region.

Hard to know whether to support Iran or not I guess. And imagine if Iran get angry none of us will be safe?

[whelk]

47 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

You can really be a deeply unpleasant individual at times. Why would anyone revel in what has been going on over the last 3 weeks? What is sanctimonious about calling out the killing of innocent people (whichever side of the divide they are from)? What is sanctimonious about the wanting of a ceasefire and more work to be done to find a long lasting peaceful solution to this interminable conflict?

If it makes you feel better to make silly jokes about massacres, knock yourself out. But I’d rather be sanctimonious than someone who thinks it is appropriate to make light of what is turning into genocide.

Netanyahu has now given his forces permission to use live rounds against Israelis who protest against his policies. Feel free to make jokes about belt buckles when the Israelis start killing their own.

I rest my case. What else are you not doing since 7/10? Have you been chuckling at Mrs Brown’s Boys whilst people are being massacred?

Edited 27 October, 2023 by whelk