Israel

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Declaring a "safe" zone, advising people to move there, then carelessly bombing them is pretty indiscriminate - unless it was deliberate.

Bombing parts of the South (parts which I assume to be something to do with Hamas unless shown evidence to the contrary) is not evidence of indiscriminate bombing. Reducing casualties by instructing civilians to go South does not mean that there will be no casualties, nor does it mean that mistakes would not happen during a war scenario which is what this is. So like I said, I haven't seen evidence of indescriminate bombing in the South. 

[egg]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'd like to see evidence for the assertions of Gutteres.

You're after a lot of evidence Hypo. As you know, there is none, save for the obvious that's in front of us. Gutteres says what I've said throughout. I'm comfortable that I agree with that rather then IDF propaganda. 

If you haven't, I'd recommend watching the video that GM posted. The short video at the end will tell you what the long term impact of the Israeli action will be - kids are being  radicalised by the Israeli attacks and occupation, and the cycle of violence will continue. 

[hypochondriac]

40 minutes ago, Guan 2.0 said:

 

Interesting cheers. So the Hamas fighter says they are happy to sacrifice themselves and civilians and the civilians support them. Obviously not definitive proof of anything but if true, perhaps shows that some in the civilian population is perhaps not as innocent as they claim (I suppose the fact that Hamas were voted in to lead the is also proof of that.)

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

You're after a lot of evidence Hypo. As you know, there is none, save for the obvious that's in front of us. Gutteres says what I've said throughout. I'm comfortable that I agree with that rather then IDF propaganda. 

If you haven't, I'd recommend watching the video that GM posted. The short video at the end will tell you what the long term impact of the Israeli action will be - kids are being  radicalised by the Israeli attacks and occupation, and the cycle of violence will continue. 

OK not a lot of evidence, maybe more or the same amount of evidence than the detailed video and written evidence of the IDF that you dismissed as propaganda and PR with no evidence for that claim. That video was very interesting because it supports what I suspect to be the opinion of many Palestinians - that they support Hamas against the Jews and that Hamas are happy to sacrifice civilians for the greater good. That's what I've said all along. 

[Fan The Flames]

4 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You can’t be serious? 
 

If they went into Gaza without bombing it first, they’d be massacred. “Go in and get the terrorists”, fuck me, do you think it’s that simple. They’d face losses that were unsustainable, losses on a scale that would put the country at risk, and that’s before Israeli public opinion is taken into account. 

So you think the Israeli army, with 160,000 mobilised, with top equipment and short supply lines can't take the Gaza strip. Of course there will be casualties on both sides including civilians, but there will be less civilian casualties.

Improving their odds by bombing, knowing that civilians will die, is a not far of being a war crime in my opinion.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

So you think the Israeli army, with 160,000 mobilised, with top equipment and short supply lines can't take the Gaza strip. Of course there will be casualties on both sides including civilians, but there will be less civilian casualties.

Improving their odds by bombing, knowing that civilians will die, is a not far of being a war crime in my opinion.

Not without taking massive casualties.....Artillery/air strikes is king, not sure any successful (or unsuccessful) campaigns have taken place with it/them

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

So you think the Israeli army, with 160,000 mobilised, with top equipment and short supply lines can't take the Gaza strip. Of course there will be casualties on both sides including civilians, but there will be less civilian casualties.

Improving their odds by bombing, knowing that civilians will die, is a not far of being a war crime in my opinion.

Every bit of information I've read about the subject says that boots on the ground in an urban warfare scenario massively favours the defenders and would undoubtedly lead to much higher Israeli casualties. 

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Every bit of information I've read about the subject says that boots on the ground in an urban warfare scenario massively favours the defenders and would undoubtedly lead to much higher Israeli casualties. 

The might of the US Armed Forces (backed up with 50k UK Forces) did not invade Iraq without some 'shock and awe' beforehand....and lets not pretend we were really worried about civilian casualties at the time.

Edited 24 October, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

OK not a lot of evidence, maybe more or the same amount of evidence than the detailed video and written evidence of the IDF that you dismissed as propaganda and PR with no evidence for that claim. That video was very interesting because it supports what I suspect to be the opinion of many Palestinians - that they support Hamas against the Jews and that Hamas are happy to sacrifice civilians for the greater good. That's what I've said all along. 

Your interpretation of the video is bewildering. 

The video includes Hamas members opposing the Israeli occupation. It did not feature civilian Palestinians. It said absolutely nothing about the civilian population taking issue with Jews.

It also showed a block of flats being blown up killing a woman and her kids. Hamas were not there. It also contained an admission that no warning was given to the occupants. It also gave no explanation for why the flats were blown up. And all that from people who try really hard not to kill civilians, something you swallow cos the idf say so. 

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

The Hague Convention of 1907 states;

"Article 25: The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.

Article 26: The officer in command of an attacking force must, before commencing a bombardment, except in cases of assault, do all in his power to warn the authorities.
Article 27: In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps must be taken to spare, as far as possible, buildings dedicated to religion, art, science, or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not being used at the time for military purposes.

It is the duty of the besieged to indicate the presence of such buildings or places by distinctive and visible signs, which shall be notified to the enemy beforehand"

Of course arial bombing wasn’t an issue in 1907. There were various attempts to bring in specific legislation over the years, especially in 1946, but for various reasons they failed or were not conclusive enough. It was not until Protocol 1 was brought in in December 1978 that it we finally had this legislation in place.

As for hypochondriac he has previous for posting against normal, peaceful Muslims and seems to have no problem with genocide being visited upon the Palestinians.

Edited 24 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Added text

[Fan The Flames]

4 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

And if going in and getting the terrorists leads to lots of civilian casualties as it undoubtedly will? You'll have the same people upset and saying Israel have murdered people. Hamas insist on hiding in civilian populations because they don't give a fuck about the Palestinian civilians. If they wanted to reduce civilian casualties they could do so but choose not to because they believe it to be good for them when average Palestinians die. 

At least you recognise that it's not possible for them to look for a peaceful solution following these atrocities unlike some people who effectively want them to do nothing or very little in response to such barbarism. 

I recognise that they would react to the atrocity, I don't want them to, but I understand that the makeup of the Israeli government and the feeling of many in the country means that they had to react.

It's can't be a coincidence that Hamas did this attack with a hard line Israel government in power.

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, egg said:

Your interpretation of the video is bewildering. 

The video includes Hamas members opposing the Israeli occupation. It did not feature civilian Palestinians. It said absolutely nothing about the civilian population taking issue with Jews.

It also showed a block of flats being blown up killing a woman and her kids. Hamas were not there. It also contained an admission that no warning was given to the occupants. It also gave no explanation for why the flats were blown up. And all that from people who try really hard not to kill civilians, something you swallow cos the idf say so. 

Your interpretation of the video is selective and bizarre. It said that the civilian population support Hamas who have a clear hatred of Jews. Like I already said, that isn't definitive evidence just because someone from Hamas says it - unlike you I don't swallow Hamas propaganda just because they state something - but if true, its clear that a number of civilians support Hamas who hate Jews. The IDF say in the video that they were targeting tunnels near or under the flats and so logically they may have missed the target or they targeted it on purpose. The reason they didn't give a warning was because they didn't intend on hitting the flats according to them. I don't know the truth of that and neither do you. You believe that the IDF are targeting civilians and it's something you swallow because Hamas told you so

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I recognise that they would react to the atrocity, I don't want them to, but I understand that the makeup of the Israeli government and the feeling of many in the country means that they had to react.

It's can't be a coincidence that Hamas did this attack with a hard line Israel government in power.

You don't think a soft touch Israeli government would be attacked? 

[Fan The Flames]

28 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Not without taking massive casualties.....Artillery/air strikes is king, not sure any successful (or unsuccessful) campaigns have taken place with it/them

Even the Russians didn't do it to Ukraine, Putin, the cunts cunt, knew it was a step too far.

[Weston Super Saint]

8 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Even the Russians didn't do it to Ukraine, Putin, the cunts cunt, knew it was a step too far.

Lol. Deluded.

[Toadhall Saint]

I’m staggered that anyone can be ok with what is currently happening in Gaza. How many more lives have to be erased before those that are currently ok with it are not? 5k?, 10k? It’s human lives for fuck sake.

[whelk]

38 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

I’m staggered that anyone can be ok with what is currently happening in Gaza. How many more lives have to be erased before those that are currently ok with it are not? 5k?, 10k? It’s human lives for fuck sake.

Basically there are really good people and they support the Palestinians and there are really horrible nasty warmongers and they support Israel

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Every bit of information I've read about the subject says that boots on the ground in an urban warfare scenario massively favours the defenders and would undoubtedly lead to much higher Israeli casualties. 

I think it’s 10/1.  I heard an expert say you need 10 Israeli soldiers for every Hamas fighter, he went on to add that this was before all the miles of tunnels were taken into account. He also pointed out that the Israeli forces included a massive amount of reservists that will make it even trickier as they’re not as well trained as professional full time soldiers. He said the sheer number of soldiers needed to take Gaza would leave the Israelis vulnerable in the North unless the Americans stepped in and protected that flank from Hezbollah. I’m sure our Isreal critics urging them to get Hamas without bombing it first, will be up in arms if they got involved. 
 

If Isreal wanted to defeat Hamas it had to roll the pitch first. I guess there’s a humanitarian argument to be had that the loss of life will be too great to defeat Hamas (one I don’t subscribe to), so they shouldn’t have tried. But to argue they should do so without bombing it and making it less dangerous for their troops is ridiculous in the extreme. That anyone believes they could go in there and defeat Hamas using a ground invasion only is unbelievable. If you believe they have the right to destroy Hamas, then there’s only one way they can do this. 

[inspectorfrost]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Your interpretation of the video is selective and bizarre. It said that the civilian population support Hamas who have a clear hatred of Jews. Like I already said, that isn't definitive evidence just because someone from Hamas says it - unlike you I don't swallow Hamas propaganda just because they state something - but if true, its clear that a number of civilians support Hamas who hate Jews. The IDF say in the video that they were targeting tunnels near or under the flats and so logically they may have missed the target or they targeted it on purpose. The reason they didn't give a warning was because they didn't intend on hitting the flats according to them. I don't know the truth of that and neither do you. You believe that the IDF are targeting civilians and it's something you swallow because Hamas told you so

Bear in mind you're talking about a military force that tried to claim 3 days ago "there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza".

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, inspectorfrost said:

Bear in mind you're talking about a military force that tried to claim 3 days ago "there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza".

I think there's grains of truth in both interpretations of the facts. Like in most wars there's propaganda on both sides. I'd just like to see evidence of similar persuasiveness to the evidence that the IDF has produced, whichever side you believe. 

[badgerx16]

Israel launch air strikes against the Syrian army, killing 8 Syrian soldiers. They have already bombed Syrian airports trying to put the runways out of commission, reportedly to prevent arms shipments from Iran.

[egg]

18 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Israel launch air strikes against the Syrian army, killing 8 Syrian soldiers. They have already bombed Syrian airports trying to put the runways out of commission, reportedly to prevent arms shipments from Iran.

They've bombed Syrian airports a few times now. Syria have nipped back with a few shells into open land. Israel have responded with air strikes killing and injuring Syrian soldiers. Israel are doing a decent job of causing the expansion that the US apparently don't want. 

[hypochondriac]

Really interesting conversation here with some valid points on both sides:

 

[egg]

14 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That anyone believes they could go in there and defeat Hamas using a ground invasion only is unbelievable. If you believe they have the right to destroy Hamas, then there’s only one way they can do this. 

This for me is important. I get the desire to be rid of Hamas, but think back to the Beirut siege in 1982 (a siege that the Israeli's were criticised for btw) and the aftermath. Israel wanted to eliminate the PLO. Sure, they were pushed out, but not for long and the resistance ideology increased. We then got all sorts of other resistance/militia/terrorist groups, and the wish for retaliation. Indeed, Bin Laden said in 2001 that the 1982 siege was part of the motivation for 9/11. Don't get wrong, he didn't need any motivation, but if nothing else that siege gave him what he felt was a justifiable excuse. 

If Hamas are dealt with, there'll be a replacement along soon enough. It's a futile pursuit by Israel that will only make things worse for them, the region, and the rest of us. 

[sadoldgit]

17 hours ago, Toadhall Saint said:

I’m staggered that anyone can be ok with what is currently happening in Gaza. How many more lives have to be erased before those that are currently ok with it are not? 5k?, 10k? It’s human lives for fuck sake.

This all day long. Muslim lives are no more expendable than Jewish lives. The idea that somehow these thousands of people’s lives are the price worth paying to pay Hamas back for their own murderous actions is beyond inhuman.

And the UN are exactly right to say that this hasn’t happened in a vacuum. The Hamas attack was a result of 7 decades of conflict. They didn’t just wake up two weeks ago and decide to do it on a whim. For an Israeli official to call for the resignation of the UN Secretary General for stating the obvious is just another example of this idea that somehow the actions of the Israeli government are beyond reproach.

I have pinched this brilliant quote from another forum.

”Israel is the the West’s overindulged, badly behaved toddler who has never been told ‘no’ , who has now grown up and the people of Israel and Gaza are paying the price of our negligence”.

Edited 25 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Text added

[whelk]

20 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

This all day long. Muslim lives are no more expendable than Jewish lives. The idea that somehow these thousands of people’s lives are the price worth paying to pay Hamas back for their own murderous actions is beyond inhuman.

And the UN are exactly right to say that this hasn’t happened in a vacuum. The Hamas attack was a result of 7 decades of conflict. They didn’t just wake up two weeks ago and decide to do it on a whim. For an Israeli official to call for the resignation of the UN Secretary General for stating the obvious is just another example of this idea that somehow the actions of the Israeli government are beyond reproach.

You really are a terrorist sympathising prick 

[egg]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

You really are a terrorist sympathising prick 

If we're back to insults rather than constructive discussion, you really are being a prick for the sake of being a prick.

SoG has said nothing that gets remotely close to being a terrorist sympathiser. He's stated facts. If they touch a nerve, then look at yourself, not SoG. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, egg said:

This for me is important. I get the desire to be rid of Hamas, but think back to the Beirut siege in 1982 (a siege that the Israeli's were criticised for btw) and the aftermath. Israel wanted to eliminate the PLO. Sure, they were pushed out, but not for long and the resistance ideology increased. We then got all sorts of other resistance/militia/terrorist groups, and the wish for retaliation. Indeed, Bin Laden said in 2001 that the 1982 siege was part of the motivation for 9/11. Don't get wrong, he didn't need any motivation, but if nothing else that siege gave him what he felt was a justifiable excuse. 

If Hamas are dealt with, there'll be a replacement along soon enough. It's a futile pursuit by Israel that will only make things worse for them, the region, and the rest of us. 

You seem to have this cast iron premise that if you hit someone they come back harder. Not really a Great War tactic as a rule

[whelk]

1 minute ago, egg said:

If we're back to insults rather than constructive discussion, you really are being a prick for the sake of being a prick.

SoG has said nothing that gets remotely close to being a terrorist sympathiser. He's stated facts. If they touch a nerve, then look at yourself, not SoG. 

I have his number mate and couldn’t give a fuck as can see through his verbose drivel posturing as righteous.  Sort of drip aggressors laugh at and take advantage of but they can rest easy as they are pacificists and want peace. I can summarise more succinctly ‘Israel deserved it yeah’

[egg]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

You seem to have this cast iron premise that if you hit someone they come back harder. Not really a Great War tactic as a rule

Not what I've said, but try telling American's that 9/11 was a weak attack. Try telling Israeli's that 7/10 was a weak response.

No sensible person should agree that whatever Israel do in Gaza will end the violence. It'll increase it, and whether anything from the the Arab/Palestinian side is "harder" is academic - the fact is that it'll be deadly, and lead to the circle of violence continuing. 

[swannymere]

I know this is obvious but what Israel is doing will increase terrorism in Europe and the US.

[trousers]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jan/03/how-to-stop-having-the-same-argument-again-and-again-and-again

 

 

 

[badgerx16]

7 minutes ago, swannymere said:

I know this is obvious but what Israel is doing will increase terrorism in Europe and the US.

Not as obvious to some as you might think.

[Lighthouse]

8 minutes ago, swannymere said:

I know this is obvious but what Israel is doing will increase terrorism in Europe and the US.

I’d say that was debatable more than obvious but either way, it should play no part in the decision making which goes on there.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’d say that was debatable more than obvious but either way, it should play no part in the decision making which goes on there.

We're seeing bits already - the fella stabbed at the ATM a couple of weeks ago was mindless, and seemingly in the name of this. Collective punishment leads to collective punishment which leads to collective punishment, etc. 

[CB Fry]

30 minutes ago, swannymere said:

I know this is obvious but what Israel is doing will increase terrorism in Europe and the US.

We're going to London as a family next week and feel more trepidation this time than the last few times we've been.

It only takes one nutcase and there's enough material for them to feed off right now.

[egg]

Just now, CB Fry said:

We're going to London as a family next week and feel more trepidation this time than the last few times we've been.

It only takes one nutcase and there's enough material for them to feed off right now.

That's sad to hear CB, but understandable. I've felt safe anywhere I've been over the last few years, whether it be the tube, a theatre, a plane, whatever. That will change sadly.

[Lighthouse]

21 minutes ago, egg said:

We're seeing bits already - the fella stabbed at the ATM a couple of weeks ago was mindless, and seemingly in the name of this. Collective punishment leads to collective punishment which leads to collective punishment, etc. 

‘Seemingly’ being the key word there. Aggressors will almost invariably act as if their actions are the victims fault, just look at Putin blaming the west and Ukraine for everything which is happening there. If you’re murdering British people over this it’s because you’re a religious fundamentalist and you consider those who aren’t subhuman.

[egg]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

‘Seemingly’ being the key word there. Aggressors will almost invariably act as if their actions are the victims fault, just look at Putin blaming the west and Ukraine for everything which is happening there. If you’re murdering British people over this it’s because you’re a religious fundamentalist and you consider those who aren’t subhuman.

Semantics/details aside, more fundamentalists will inflict harm on people living in Britain as a result of this. That shouldn't happen, but it undoubtedly will. 

[aintforever]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Semantics/details aside, more fundamentalists will inflict harm on people living in Britain as a result of this. That shouldn't happen, but it undoubtedly will. 

Exactly. Events like this will obviously risk tipping some nutcase over the edge. Seeing images of Palestinian babies being blown up then hearing people over here getting angry because Wembley isn't lit up in the colours of the country responsible.

Edited 25 October, 2023 by aintforever

[Lord Duckhunter]

39 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

If you’re murdering British people over this it’s because you’re a religious fundamentalist and you consider those who aren’t subhuman.

This is it. Anyone who thinks these nutters are only going to do it because of Israel’s “disproportionate” reaction to 7/10 is fucking deluded. That’s just the latest excuse. 

 

“If innocent Palestinians hadn’t suffered, I wouldn’t be stabbing  people to death in Covent Garden ” said Mohammad 23 from Tower Hamlets after his arrest. “Those damn Jews made me do it”. 

[whelk]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Really interesting conversation here with some valid points on both sides:

 

Very interesting, thanks for posting although haven’t listened all way through yet.  
May make others think wider if they were to take it in too. 

 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Semantics/details aside, more fundamentalists will inflict harm on people living in Britain as a result of this. That shouldn't happen, but it undoubtedly will. 

Will wait for all your data on this. Suggest you listen to Hypo’s Sam Harris video to gain some insight into Jihad

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

We're seeing bits already - the fella stabbed at the ATM a couple of weeks ago was mindless, and seemingly in the name of this. Collective punishment leads to collective punishment which leads to collective punishment, etc. 

So Israel is responsible for some nutter jihadi blowing up a train in London? 

[aintforever]

27 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

This is it. Anyone who thinks these nutters are only going to do it because of Israel’s “disproportionate” reaction to 7/10 is fucking deluded. That’s just the latest excuse. 

 

“If innocent Palestinians hadn’t suffered, I wouldn’t be stabbing  people to death in Covent Garden ” said Mohammad 23 from Tower Hamlets after his arrest. “Those damn Jews made me do it”. 

Havn't anti-semitic attacks over here already increased since 7/10? 

[whelk]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Havn't anti-semitic attacks over here already increased since 7/10? 

Probably feel more empowered now given all the sympathisers

Edited 25 October, 2023 by whelk

[egg]

24 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

This is it. Anyone who thinks these nutters are only going to do it because of Israel’s “disproportionate” reaction to 7/10 is fucking deluded. That’s just the latest excuse. 

 

“If innocent Palestinians hadn’t suffered, I wouldn’t be stabbing  people to death in Covent Garden ” said Mohammad 23 from Tower Hamlets after his arrest. “Those damn Jews made me do it”. 

An excuse to us, but justification for them. The thing is, there's justification/excuse throughout this dispute, and at every turn. When an idf soldier shoots and maims a kid for throwing a stone, the idf soldier sees himself as justified whereas the Palestinians see the stone throwing as an excuse to cause harm. The Palestinians then fire a rocket knowing it could maim innocents, and see the shooting of the kid as justification, whereas the Israeli's consider it an excuse. The idf respond with reprisals. And it goes on, and will go on in perpetuity by the looks of it. 

That's not a statement in support of anyone. It's an objective view of what's been happening. 

[egg]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

Will wait for all your data on this. Suggest you listen to Hypo’s Sam Harris video to gain some insight into Jihad

There's no stats for what hasn't happened yet Whelk. I hope I'm wrong that this doesn't hit our shores, but I suspect you're in minority if you think (hope) that it won't.

I'll watch the vid later. I suggest watching the vice news vid that was posted on here yesterday if you haven't. 

[whelk]

Just now, egg said:

There's no stats for what hasn't happened yet Whelk. I hope I'm wrong that this doesn't hit our shores, but I suspect you're in minority if you think (hope) that it won't.

I'll watch the vid later. I suggest watching the vice news vid that was posted on here yesterday if you haven't. 

I will cheers

[aintforever]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Probably feel more empowered now given all the sympathisers

Whatever the reason it has had an effect.