Israel

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Go in to Gaza and get the terrorists, which is what they are planning or take over the region, but without the bombing of Gaza beforehand.,

 

You can’t be serious? 
 

If they went into Gaza without bombing it first, they’d be massacred. “Go in and get the terrorists”, fuck me, do you think it’s that simple. They’d face losses that were unsustainable, losses on a scale that would put the country at risk, and that’s before Israeli public opinion is taken into account. 
 

 

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You can’t be serious? 
 

If they went into Gaza without bombing it first, they’d be massacred. “Go in and get the terrorists”, fuck me, do you think it’s that simple. They’d face losses that were unsustainable, losses on a scale that would put the country at risk, and that’s before Israeli public opinion is taken into account. 
 

 

Exactly. Just kill bad people not innocents. Think everyone would vote for that but alas not so simple 

[badgerx16]

17 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That throughout history innocent people have died because of the actions of those that lived amongst them & perpetrated evil in their name.

Every single one of the thousands that have died since 7/10 would be alive now if it wasn’t for their fellow  Palestinians attacking Jews. 

This becomes a circular argument going back the the Balfour Declaration and the establishment of the state of Israel.

[aintforever]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

Exactly. Just kill bad people not innocents. Think everyone would vote for that but alas not so simple 

There's some middle ground though and from what I have seen Israel put very little value on the lives of innocent Palestinians - as they have done historically. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

Did they explicitly say that? Hamas targets are fair game. Or do you think they targeted convoys of civilians? 

Essentially, yes.

They said “In the following days, the IDF will continue to operate significantly in Gaza City and make extensive efforts to avoid harming civilians,” the IDF warned. “Evacuate south for your own safety and the safety of your families and distance yourself from Hamas terrorists who are using you as human shields.”

 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Essentially, yes.

They said “In the following days, the IDF will continue to operate significantly in Gaza City and make extensive efforts to avoid harming civilians,” the IDF warned. “Evacuate south for your own safety and the safety of your families and distance yourself from Hamas terrorists who are using you as human shields.”

 

Where's the evidence they have explicitly targeted civilians? Unlike Hamas whose stated aim was to target them. 

[badgerx16]

12 minutes ago, whelk said:

Did they explicitly say that? Hamas targets are fair game. Or do you think they targeted convoys of civilians? 

It is a war, both sides hate each other and I would not trust the Israeli military to play strictly by the rules by verifying their targets are 100% legitimate. But then again Hamas don't give a shit about such niceties, so whether by design or accident, such incidents are bound to occur, and in the confines of Gaza collateral casualties are inevitable.

It is a shit show of 75 years making, and shows what a corrupting influence religion can be.

[egg]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Where's the evidence they have explicitly targeted civilians? Unlike Hamas whose stated aim was to target them. 

Where's the evidence that they didn't? They're taking out houses with families across all generations. Mosques. Schools. Businesses. I don't believe for one moment that they're targeting just Hamas. It seems that a Hamas target is anywhere that Israel can say that a Hamas member has attended, could attend, or may attend. It's destruction of Gaza in the name of Hamas destruction. 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

Where's the evidence that they didn't? They're taking out houses with families across all generations. Mosques. Schools. Businesses. I don't believe for one moment that they're targeting just Hamas. It seems that a Hamas target is anywhere that Israel can say that a Hamas member has attended, could attend, or may attend. It's destruction of Gaza in the name of Hamas destruction. 

So Hamas create a base of operation in a hospital and start planning and attacking Israel from it. Israel bombs the hospital. Is that Israel explicitly targeting civilians in your mind or is that Hamas manufacturing a situation where civilians are likely to be injured? 

[egg]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So Hamas create a base of operation in a hospital and start planning and attacking Israel from it. Israel bombs the hospital. Is that Israel explicitly targeting civilians in your mind or is that Hamas manufacturing a situation where civilians are likely to be injured? 

Where's the evidence that is what has happened? 

Let's turn that scenario around.

If Israel bombs a hospital (or a home, or a mosque, or a school) because they say that a Hamas member is there and/or attacks are being planned from there (but not being actioned from there), is that Israel legitimately targeting Hamas, or manufacturing a situation where civilians are likely to be killed or injured? 

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

Where's the evidence that is what has happened? 

Let's turn that scenario around.

If Israel bombs a hospital (or a home, or a mosque, or a school) because they say that a Hamas member is there and/or attacks are being planned from there (but not being actioned from there), is that Israel legitimately targeting Hamas, or manufacturing a situation where civilians are likely to be killed or injured? 

I haven't seen evidence that Israel know there are no Hamas but have attacked it anyway. There are no examples as far as I am aware of Israel stating their aim is to target civilians. I have seen evidence that Hamas have based themselves in civilian populations and effectively use human shields and carry out attacks from civilian areas and examples of Hamas saying they want to target civilians. Why is it that the majority of rockets that Hamas fires is from built up areas rather than from agricultural areas? Why do Hamas members decline to wear uniforms?: 

 

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf 

 

You've said that essentially Israel have said that they are explicitly targeting civilians. I'm asking for your evidence that that is the case. Plenty of examples of it happening the other way round.

Edited 24 October, 2023 by hypochondriac

[egg]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I haven't seen evidence that Israel know there are no Hamas but have attacked it anyway. There are no examples as far as I am aware of Israel stating their aim is to target civilians. I have seen evidence that Hamas have based themselves in civilian populations and effectively use human shields and carry out attacks from civilian areas and examples of Hamas saying they want to target civilians: 

 

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf 

 

You've said that essentially Israel have said that they are explicitly targeting civilians. I'm asking for your evidence that that is the case.

I'll rely on the doctrine of common sense - 704 people have been killed in Gaza in the last 24 hours. That includes whole family's - all generations. It's beyond all logic that all these deaths, and targets, are legitimate Hamas targets. I'm in little doubt that the Hamas 'targets' are tenuous at best. 

Again Hypo, I'll leave it here because I can't be arsed to waste hours discussing something with you, and clogging up the thread in the process. 

[whelk]

Problem is that both sides demonise the other and mistrust anything the other says.

As said before whilst Israel isnt blameless the barbaric sadistic nature of Hamas attacks and the celebrating of it by swathes in Gaza hardly makes an Israeli sympathetic to the innocents caught up. I’d argue any relative of a Hamas member getting taken out fair.

Also don’t think the peace festival goers were given any notice to clear out

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

I'll rely on the doctrine of common sense - 704 people have been killed in Gaza in the last 24 hours. That includes whole family's - all generations. It's beyond all logic that all these deaths, and targets, are legitimate Hamas targets. I'm in little doubt that the Hamas 'targets' are tenuous at best. 

Again Hypo, I'll leave it here because I can't be arsed to waste hours discussing something with you, and clogging up the thread in the process. 

That's a long way of saying you don't have any evidence. Hamas knows that Israel are looking to reduce civilian casualties which is why they make it as difficult as possible for this to happen to garner sympathy for their cause. It's people like you who do the work for the murderous terrorists.

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

 Israel are looking to reduce civilian casualties 

Seriously? Why would you flatten whole neighbourhoods if you want to reduce civilian casualties?

You are living in a dream world. Israel don't give a fuck about Palestinian civilians, they are just getting revenge, pure and simple.

[badgerx16]

35 UN workers killed in Gaza so far.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Problem is that both sides demonise the other and mistrust anything the other says.

As said before whilst Israel isnt blameless the barbaric sadistic nature of Hamas attacks and the celebrating of it by swathes in Gaza hardly makes an Israeli sympathetic to the innocents caught up. I’d argue any relative of a Hamas member getting taken out fair.

Also don’t think the peace festival goers were given any notice to clear out

I'd much rather that no innocent civilians are caught up in this. Ridiculous to think they wouldn't be though. A response from Israel after the barbarism was inevitable and due to the tactics employed by Hamas as outlined above it was always going to happen. No actions from Israel justified the slaughter that happened earlier this month and there is a hint from some on here that Israel sort of brought it on themselves because of their past behaviour. That IMO is shocking.

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Seriously? Why would you flatten whole neighbourhoods if you want to reduce civilian casualties?

You are living in a dream world. Israel don't give a fuck about Palestinian civilians, they are just getting revenge, pure and simple.

“We don’t want to see innocent civilians caught up in the crossfire between us and Hamas,” Mark Regev said in an MSNBC interview Saturday. “And we’re making a maximum effort and we understand that in many ways the civilian population of Gaza is a victim of that terrible Hamas regime that’s been ruling the Gaza Strip for the last 16 years.”

Regev, who is also the former Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom, said Israel’s government is not considering a ceasefire.

“We will continue the operation against Hamas, we will dismantle its military machine, and we will do so in a way that we will try as best as we can to minimize civilian civilians getting caught up in the crossfire,” he said.

A resolution to support a ceasefire in the House, led by Rep. Cori Bush (D-Mo.), garnered support from numerous progressive Democrats. It has also led to divisions in the party, as the Biden administration fully backs the Israeli offensive.

“I am grieving for every Palestinian, Israeli, and American life lost to this violence, and my heart breaks for all those who will be forever traumatized because of it,” Bush said in a statement introducing her resolution on Monday.

“War and retaliatory violence doesn’t achieve accountability or justice; it only leads to more death and human suffering,” she added.

Regev defended the Israeli military strategy, saying its strikes on Gaza are reasonable and retaliatory for the initial attacks by Hamas and its capture of hostages.

“We don’t target the civilian population of Gaza,” he said. “The truth is, Israel is trying to save lives while Hamas is willing to sacrifice an untold number of Palestinian civilians on the altar of it’s crazy hate and hateful, extreme ideology.”

 

 

You can disagree with these statements but where are the similar statements from Hamas? Why do you not have Hamas coming out to say they are looking to minimise civilian casualties? Why do you have individual terrorists on whatsapp bragging to their parents about being a hero because they have killed multiple innocent Jews?

Where is the Hamas equivalent of this website?

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/how-is-the-idf-minimizing-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza/

Edited 24 October, 2023 by hypochondriac

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'd much rather that no innocent civilians are caught up in this. Ridiculous to think they wouldn't be though. A response from Israel after the barbarism was inevitable and due to the tactics employed by Hamas as outlined above it was always going to happen. No actions from Israel justified the slaughter that happened earlier this month and there is a hint from some on here that Israel sort of brought it on themselves because of their past behaviour. That IMO is shocking.

Israel's actions past and present are a causative factor in the attitude and response of Palestinian activists. Hamas feed from this and are prompted to barbarity by the influence of others, such as Iran. Some sort of military action was bound to happen sooner or later - it is the unexpectedly  inhuman barbarity of Hamas' attack that has caught everyone off guard and ramped up the shock level.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Israel's actions past and present are a causative factor in the attitude and response of Palestinian activists. Hamas feed from this and are prompted to barbarity by the influence of others, such as Iran. Some sort of military action was bound to happen sooner or later - it is the unexpectedly  inhuman barbarity of Hamas' attack that has caught everyone off guard and ramped up the shock level.

Don't disagree with any of that. 

[egg]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's a long way of saying you don't have any evidence. Hamas knows that Israel are looking to reduce civilian casualties which is why they make it as difficult as possible for this to happen to garner sympathy for their cause. It's people like you who do the work for the murderous terrorists.

Behave Hypo - you're better than nonsense like that. 

You have as much 'evidence' that Israel aren't targeting (or as a minimum making no effort to avoid them being collateral damage) as I do that they are 

Your comment that "Israel are looking to reduce civilian casualties" is as naive as anything else you've posted on this thread. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

Behave Hypo - you're better than nonsense like that. 

You have as much 'evidence' that Israel aren't targeting (or as a minimum making no effort to avoid them being collateral damage) as I do that they are 

Your comment that "Israel are looking to reduce civilian casualties" is as naive as anything else you've posted on this thread. 

Plenty of statements and detail from Israel themselves about how they are trying to reduce civilian casualties. Where is the Hamas equivalent? Nothing naive about it. There is evidence of actions Hamas is taking to reduce civilian casualties. 

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/how-is-the-idf-minimizing-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza/

Edited 24 October, 2023 by hypochondriac

[aintforever]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

“We don’t want to see innocent civilians caught up in the crossfire between us and Hamas,” Mark Regev said in an MSNBC interview Saturday. “And we’re making a maximum effort and we understand that in many ways the civilian population of Gaza is a victim of that terrible Hamas regime that’s been ruling the Gaza Strip for the last 16 years.”

Regev, who is also the former Israeli ambassador to the United Kingdom, said Israel’s government is not considering a ceasefire.

“We will continue the operation against Hamas, we will dismantle its military machine, and we will do so in a way that we will try as best as we can to minimize civilian civilians getting caught up in the crossfire,” he said.

A resolution to support a ceasefire in the House, led by Rep. Cori Bush (D-Mo.), garnered support from numerous progressive Democrats. It has also led to divisions in the party, as the Biden administration fully backs the Israeli offensive.

“I am grieving for every Palestinian, Israeli, and American life lost to this violence, and my heart breaks for all those who will be forever traumatized because of it,” Bush said in a statement introducing her resolution on Monday.

“War and retaliatory violence doesn’t achieve accountability or justice; it only leads to more death and human suffering,” she added.

Regev defended the Israeli military strategy, saying its strikes on Gaza are reasonable and retaliatory for the initial attacks by Hamas and its capture of hostages.

“We don’t target the civilian population of Gaza,” he said. “The truth is, Israel is trying to save lives while Hamas is willing to sacrifice an untold number of Palestinian civilians on the altar of it’s crazy hate and hateful, extreme ideology.”

 

 

You can disagree with these statements but where are the similar statements from Hamas? Why do you not have Hamas coming out to say they are looking to minimise civilian casualties? Why do you have individual terrorists on whatsapp bragging to their parents about being a hero because they have killed multiple innocent Jews?

Where is the Hamas equivalent of this website?

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/how-is-the-idf-minimizing-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza/

You don't seriously expect the Israelis to say they don't give a shit about civilian casualties do you?

Judge them by what they do not by what they say.

 

Edited 24 October, 2023 by aintforever

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

You don't seriously expect the Israelis to say they don't give a shit about civilian casualties do you?

Judge them by what they do not by what they say.

 

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/how-is-the-idf-minimizing-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza/ 

Fair bit of evidence there for things they are doing. You don't like it but doesn't mean it isn't happening. Why are Hamas not going to similar efforts to highlight what actions they are taking to minimise civilian casualties?

Edited 24 October, 2023 by hypochondriac

[skintsaint]

25 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Why would you flatten whole neighbourhoods if you want to reduce civilian casualties?

It's the prep for the ground teams moving in and why they gave warning to move south.

Edited 24 October, 2023 by skintsaint

[egg]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Plenty of statements and detail from Israel themselves about how they are trying to reduce civilian casualties. Where is the Hamas equivalent? Nothing naive about it. There is evidence of actions Hamas is taking to reduce civilian casualties. 

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/how-is-the-idf-minimizing-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza/

Feck me. Israel have said it so it must be true, eh. They've been killing and maiming people, including kids for throwing stones, for years Hypo. Years ago they introduced bullets designed to disintegrate bone and the surrounding tissue, and used those on children, in the name of peace keeping. That is not the actions of a government trying to avoid harming civilians. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Feck me. Israel have said it so it must be true, eh. They've been killing and maiming people, including kids for throwing stones, for years Hypo. Years ago they introduced bullets designed to disintegrate bone and the surrounding tissue, and used those on children, in the name of peace keeping. That is not the actions of a government trying to avoid harming civilians. 

Feck me. Why have Israel gone to the trouble of detailing actions they have taken to reduce civilian casualties? Why have Hamas not done the same?

[aintforever]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Feck me. Why have Israel gone to the trouble of detailing actions they have taken to reduce civilian casualties? Why have Hamas not done the same?

Israel have to appear to be acting 'reasonably' because their existence relies on support from the USA.

The situation is very difficult but there is always a balance between killing the enemy and civilian casualties - we have seen it for years in Iraq and Afghanistan. IMO the scenes from Gaza show there is little or no regard for innocent civilians, very much more like the Putin playbook than what we seen previously from the coalition.

[egg]

25 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Feck me. Why have Israel gone to the trouble of detailing actions they have taken to reduce civilian casualties? Why have Hamas not done the same?

Jeez. Calling you naive was generous Hypo. 

Israel are not going to tell us anything other than what they want us to here.

Israel have harmed Palestinians for years. Your belief that they're not doing that as part their response to the 7/10 attacks is simply astonishing. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Jeez. Calling you naive was generous Hypo. 

Israel are not going to tell us anything other than what they want us to here.

Israel have harmed Palestinians for years. Your belief that they're not doing that as part their response to the 7/10 attacks is simply astonishing. 

Jeez. I thought you weren't responding any longer? I'm tired of your petty comments. I've never claimed to be a blind supporter of everything Israel does, I just don't believe there is a moral equivalence on this issue. Again, why have Hamas not gone to the effort of creating a detailed fictional account of fictional actions they are taking to avoid civilian casualties? Why do they not have video evidence of actions they are taking to do so? 

Edited 24 October, 2023 by hypochondriac

[egg]

33 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

It's the prep for the ground teams moving in and why they gave warning to move south.

That seems likely, but what happens when they've finished in the north? They'll doubtless turn their attention to the south. If so, the Palestinians who've been pushed south have nowhere in Gaza to go (or be safe) once the north has been flattened. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

That seems likely, but what happens when they've finished in the north? They'll doubtless turn their attention to the south. If so, the Palestinians who've been pushed south have nowhere in Gaza to go (or be safe) once the north has been flattened. 

You don't believe anything the Israelis say anyway so it's irrelevant if they said what they were going to do. 

[egg]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I thought you weren't responding any longer? I'm tired of your petty comments. I've never claimed to be a blind supporter of everything Israel does, I just don't believe there is a moral equivalence on this issue. Again, why have Hamas not gone to the effort of creating a detailed fictional account of fictional actions they are taking to avoid civilian casualties? Why do they not have video evidence of actions they are taking to do so? 

The sheer scale and depravity of the 7/10 attacks does not alter the appalling behaviour of the Israeli government before and since. That behaviour gives no justification for Hamas actions, and imo those actions do not justify the response that we've seen.  

I'm not remotely interested in propaganda, but it seems like it's worked on you.

You are right to judge Hamas by it's actions. We all do. Israel should also be judged in the same way. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You don't believe anything the Israelis say anyway so it's irrelevant if they said what they were going to do. 

What do you think Israel will do with the south once they've finished in the north? If you feel that the Israeli action in the north is justified because Hamas have a presence there, presumably you believe that the same action in the south is ok? 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

The sheer scale and depravity of the 7/10 attacks does not alter the appalling behaviour of the Israeli government before and since. That behaviour gives no justification for Hamas actions, and imo those actions do not justify the response that we've seen.  

I'm not remotely interested in propaganda, but it seems like it's worked on you.

You are right to judge Ha? Amas by it's actions. We all do. Israel should also be ju I bit ze law dged in the same way. 

Behave egg- you're better than nonsense like that. Where is your evidence that Israel have not done the things it has outlined on their web page to reduce civilian casualties? If It's your belief that the claims of the IDF are entirely fabricated and they've mocked up a web page with fake videos then presumably you've got evidence to prove this fakery? 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

What do you think Israel will do with the south once they've finished in the north? If you feel that the Israeli action in the north is justified because Hamas have a presence there, presumably you believe that the same action in the south is ok? 

I'll comment on the Israeli ground offensive in the South when and if it happens. If they clear out the North and then start indiscriminately bombing the South giving civilians nowhere to go then that is not right but it's speculation at present. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Behave egg- you're better than nonsense like that. Where is your evidence that Israel have not done the things it has outlined on their web page to reduce civilian casualties? If It's your belief that the claims of the IDF are entirely fabricated and they've mocked up a web page with fake videos then presumably you've got evidence to prove this fakery? 

Have you seen the destruction in Gaza? The death count? The historic attacks on civilians, including unarmed kids? That is not the actions of a peace loving nation trying desperately hard to avoid harming civilians.

I'm just glad that the UN see it as it is. Not that they'll be able to do anything though. 

Antonio Guterres has called for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza, adding there are “clear violations” of international humanitarian law in the besieged enclave

“Let me be clear: No party to an armed conflict is above international humanitarian law,” Guterres told a session of the UN Security Council.

Guterres also pushed for much more humanitarian relief to be allowed into Gaza.

The UN chief says it was important to recognise the attacks by Hamas “did not happen in a vacuum”.

“The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation,” he told UNSC members.

“They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements, plagued by violence, their economy stifled, their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing.”

However, Guterres said the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the “appalling attacks” by Hamas, and which in turn could not justify the “collective punishment of the Palestinian people”.

“At a crucial moment like this, it is vital to be clear on principles – starting with the fundamental principle of respecting and protecting civilians.”

Do you disagree with Guterres? 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

The UN are a politically captured organisation who can't define what a woman is. I'd have to check myself if they told me that the sky was blue. 

[sadoldgit]

4 hours ago, aintforever said:

One that put a bit more value on the lives of the innocent people living in Gaza. It looks to me like Israel are just dishing out collective punishment as revenge more than trying to destroy specific Hamas targets.

There was a harrowing report on the Gaza situation on BBC, Panorama, last night. They spoke to some  of the loved ones of the victims from the attacks from both sides and it was heartbreaking, especially the last one where you thought the whole family would survive after two night of bombing.

You have to have a heart made of stone to care about the innocent victims of the Hamas attacks but be relatively unconcerned about the disproportionately growing loss of life of innocent women and children from the air attacks by Israel. Why is that? Are the lives of innocent Muslim women and children somehow worth less?

You are right. The policy is hurt us and we will hurt you more. It always has been. It hasn’t worked before and it will not work again.

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Lots and yes. To deliberately target a civilian population, or to fail to minimise the impact of a military action on such a population, is a war crime. However, hindsight and revisionism are wonderful tools.

What exactly was your point ?

The (carpet) bombing of civilians was not illegal under international law back then but it is now. 

I made the mistake of reading a book about the bombing of Dresden a few years ago. It created a huge firestorm killing some 25,000 people and the description of the destruction was beyond horrific. As much as the Blitz and the bombing of Coventry etc. offers some kind of mitigation, reading about the deliberate mass destruction of innocent people and their homes, who ever they are, leaves a sour taste in the mouth, much like the shelling of civilians now.
 

 

Edited 24 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Added text

[badgerx16]

13 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'll comment on the Israeli ground offensive in the South when and if it happens. If they clear out the North and then start indiscriminately bombing the South giving civilians nowhere to go then that is not right but it's speculation at present. 

They are bombing the south of the Gaza Strip.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

They are bombing the south of the Gaza Strip.

Please provide evidence of indiscriminate bombing in the South which is what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth. 

[aintforever]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The UN are a politically captured organisation who can't define what a woman is. I'd have to check myself if they told me that the sky was blue. 

Brilliant! From someone who quotes an IDF website as proof.

 

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

The (carpet) bombing of civilians was not illegal under international law back then but it is now. 

 

The Hague Convention of 1907 states;

"Article 25: The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.

Article 26: The officer in command of an attacking force must, before commencing a bombardment, except in cases of assault, do all in his power to warn the authorities.
Article 27: In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps must be taken to spare, as far as possible, buildings dedicated to religion, art, science, or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not being used at the time for military purposes.

It is the duty of the besieged to indicate the presence of such buildings or places by distinctive and visible signs, which shall be notified to the enemy beforehand"

Edited 24 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Please provide evidence of indiscriminate bombing in the South which is what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth. 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/as-israels-bombing-hits-declared-safe-zones-palestinians-trapped-in-gaza-find-danger-everywhere

[egg]

24 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The UN are a politically captured organisation who can't define what a woman is. I'd have to check myself if they told me that the sky was blue. 

As you expect others to comment on the IDF's public statements, it's fair to ask if you agree with the Gutteres quotes above, or not...

 

[Guan 2.0]

 

[hypochondriac]

44 minutes ago, egg said:

As you expect others to comment on the IDF's public statements, it's fair to ask if you agree with the Gutteres quotes above, or not...

 

I'd like to see evidence for the assertions of Gutteres.

[hypochondriac]

55 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/as-israels-bombing-hits-declared-safe-zones-palestinians-trapped-in-gaza-find-danger-everywhere

That isn't an example of indescriminate bombing in the South. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Brilliant! From someone who quotes an IDF website as proof.

 

I didn't say it was proof. I said it provided evidence of the things they are doing. You may disbelieve or disprove the video and written evidence from the IDF and then maybe I'd take your denials of the evidence seriously. Some assertions from someone at the UN isn't evidence of anything. 

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That isn't an example of indescriminate bombing in the South. 

Declaring a "safe" zone, advising people to move there, then carelessly bombing them is pretty indiscriminate - unless it was deliberate.