Israel

[Fan The Flames]

The Israel government accused the impartial BBC of contemporary blood libel for partially misattributing the perpetrators of the hospital bomb. Whilst the initial coverage was damaging to the Israeli government, it was an honest error and not part of an antisemitic agenda. War is chaotic, for the antagonists as well as those reporting it.

[sadoldgit]

I mentioned “Jews” because Duckhunter’s definition of anti-Semtisism mentioned “Jews”.

His exact words “I call people who criticise Jews anti-Semitic”.

Now let’s look at a grown up definition from the Cambridge dictionary - “Hate or strong dislike of Jews or actions that express hate or dislike of Jews”.

Surely even the most hard of thinking individual can see that there is a massive difference between the two.

When we talk of Russian actions in the Ukraine it is a given that we are talking about Putin’s regime rather than individual Russians (although clearly his wishes are being carried out in the main by a number of his countrymen).

When I talk about what is happening in the Middle East I assumed that most people would understand that I was talking about the Israeli state rather than Jewish people as individuals. Many Jewish people want reconciliation and peace and are not supportive of the current government. If I have not made that clear I will hold up my hands and apologise and hopefully this will make my position clear. I have absolutely no hatred or dislike of the Jewish people just as I have no hatred or dislike of Russian people.

What happens and what has been clearly happening here is that if you level justifiable questions about the actions of the Israeli state, the defenders of their actions have no justifiable defence so their default position is to call out people as “anti-Semitic”.

It was used to attack Corbyn no matter what he was talking about. It is all over social media when people try and discuss what has been going on in the last week in Israel and Gaza.

It is so bad that even the leader of the opposition is absolutely terrified of saying anything that could remotely be misconstrued as being anti-Semitic.

The BBC, who are clearly bending over backwards to try and tiptoe through the impartiality minefield, are being pressured by senior Israeli officials about their coverage with the spectre of claims of being labelled anti-Semitic hanging in the air.

I have heard from ex Guardian colleagues that the Board of Deputies of British Jews is constantly in the ear of editor Kath Viner. Rumour has it that the sacking of cartoonist Steve Bell might be down to pressure from them.

I don’t believe for one minute that anyone here hates Jews so let’s discuss what is actually happening and park the imaginary stuff which is purely a tactic to deflect from the real issues.

Getting back to the issues, our PM, Rishi Sunak (or Doctor Death if you have been following the depressing Covid enquiry) made a speech yesterday with Netanyahu, looked at him and said “We hope you win”. Win? This is not a football match. Even if the campaign to flatten Gaza and kill every Hamas operative there, that will not be a “win”. All it will do is fuel more hatred, recruit more terrorists, justify further murderous attacks on innocent Jewish people. Destroy Hamas and its place will be taken by others. There is no win and a proper statesman would understand that.

A “win” would be a ceasefire and an ending of the bloodshed and destruction, humanitarian aid being supplied to those entrapped in Gaza and moves from the UN and all Arab states to find a mutually acceptable compromise that will lead to peace in the area in the future.

Sadly we still have to wait a year before we have a proper, grown up PM again but on the upside at least Trump is not involved (for now 🥴).

 

 

Edited 20 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Added text

[Lord Duckhunter]

33 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

 

Now let’s look at a grown up definition from the Cambridge dictionary - “Hate or strong dislike of Jews or actions that express hate or dislike of Jews”.

 

 

 

So are you saying that The IHRA definition of anti-Semitism isn’t “grown up”, that the 20+ countries that accept & use this definition shouldn’t do so . They should just use the “Cambridge dictionary “ as that’s the grown up version. 

That’s a pretty ridiculous claim even for you. 
 

To help with your education & help you gain some understanding that your “hate or strong dislike of Jews” definition belongs in a year 6 lesson and not in a serious discussion. 
 

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
• Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
• Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
• Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

 

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

The Israel government accused the impartial BBC of contemporary blood libel for partially misattributing the perpetrators of the hospital bomb. Whilst the initial coverage was damaging to the Israeli government, it was an honest error and not part of an antisemitic agenda. War is chaotic, for the antagonists as well as those reporting it.

Given the stakes involved, I could see why Israel would be particularly sensitive to misreporting. Particularly given that the BBC are supposed to have a reputation for decent journalism and are influential on the world stage for that reason. Such a misattribution can have grave consequences.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

 

When we talk of Russian actions in the Ukraine it is a given that we are talking about Putin’s regime rather than individual Russians (although clearly his wishes are being carried out in the main by a number of his countrymen).

I have absolutely no hatred or dislike of the Jewish people just as I have no hatred or dislike of Russian people.

 

 

 

You’re still struggling aren’t you.

You are comparing Putin & Russians to Netyanau & “Jews”. Not Israelis, but Jews. 

If The Nigerian government started bombing South Africa and I wrote that I didn’t blame The Blacks, but their Government. What would you call me? 

 

 

[Fan The Flames]

25 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Given the stakes involved, I could see why Israel would be particularly sensitive to misreporting. Particularly given that the BBC are supposed to have a reputation for decent journalism and are influential on the world stage for that reason. Such a misattribution can have grave consequences.

I get that they didn't like the initial reporting, but for a spokesman of the government to use that language isn't helpful. Call it out for what it is and don't claim its something that it's not.

[hypochondriac]

22 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I get that they didn't like the initial reporting, but for a spokesman of the government to use that language isn't helpful. Call it out for what it is and don't claim its something that it's not.

I agree I don't like a lot of the rhetoric coming from the Israeli government. All I'm saying is I understand some of their reaction given the pressure they are under and the consequences from misreporting. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So are you saying that The IHRA definition of anti-Semitism isn’t “grown up”, that the 20+ countries that accept & use this definition shouldn’t do so . They should just use the “Cambridge dictionary “ as that’s the grown up version. 

That’s a pretty ridiculous claim even for you. 
 

To help with your education & help you gain some understanding that your “hate or strong dislike of Jews” definition belongs in a year 6 lesson and not in a serious discussion. 
 

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
• Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
• Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
• Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

 

Sog is not a serious person.

[rallyboy]

It's been alleged for years that the Israeli government's communications team makes daily calls to dozens of media outlets complaining about coverage of their actions and trying to pressure journalists.

This aggressive PR campaign is backed up by the amount of money they also invest in Westminster.

It's the equivalent of a struggling football club complaining because they don't like papers publishing the results and the league table.

[buctootim]

4 hours ago, rallyboy said:

It's been alleged for years that the Israeli government's communications team makes daily calls to dozens of media outlets complaining about coverage of their actions and trying to pressure journalists.

This aggressive PR campaign is backed up by the amount of money they also invest in Westminster.

It's the equivalent of a struggling football club complaining because they don't like papers publishing the results and the league table.

Mainstream media outlets are influenced / pressured in all kinds of ways. In an age when they are funded by clickbait their editorial lines are often influenced by what is already trending on SM. If SM is full of fake profiles generated by botfarms are setting the news agenda then the funders have achieved their aim. 

The old spoof #freepalpatine has been picked up by thousands of bot accounts in the past few days and pushing pro Palestinian narratives. That has at least shown what a huge manipulation problem is out there.  

None of this is to take sides, I don't know the answers. After all truth is the first casualty of war etc.. 

 

Edited 20 October, 2023 by buctootim

[whelk]

5 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I mentioned “Jews” because Duckhunter’s definition of anti-Semtisism mentioned “Jews”.

His exact words “I call people who criticise Jews anti-Semitic”.

Now let’s look at a grown up definition from the Cambridge dictionary - “Hate or strong dislike of Jews or actions that express hate or dislike of Jews”.

Surely even the most hard of thinking individual can see that there is a massive difference between the two.

When we talk of Russian actions in the Ukraine it is a given that we are talking about Putin’s regime rather than individual Russians (although clearly his wishes are being carried out in the main by a number of his countrymen).

When I talk about what is happening in the Middle East I assumed that most people would understand that I was talking about the Israeli state rather than Jewish people as individuals. Many Jewish people want reconciliation and peace and are not supportive of the current government. If I have not made that clear I will hold up my hands and apologise and hopefully this will make my position clear. I have absolutely no hatred or dislike of the Jewish people just as I have no hatred or dislike of Russian people.

What happens and what has been clearly happening here is that if you level justifiable questions about the actions of the Israeli state, the defenders of their actions have no justifiable defence so their default position is to call out people as “anti-Semitic”.

It was used to attack Corbyn no matter what he was talking about. It is all over social media when people try and discuss what has been going on in the last week in Israel and Gaza.

It is so bad that even the leader of the opposition is absolutely terrified of saying anything that could remotely be misconstrued as being anti-Semitic.

The BBC, who are clearly bending over backwards to try and tiptoe through the impartiality minefield, are being pressured by senior Israeli officials about their coverage with the spectre of claims of being labelled anti-Semitic hanging in the air.

I have heard from ex Guardian colleagues that the Board of Deputies of British Jews is constantly in the ear of editor Kath Viner. Rumour has it that the sacking of cartoonist Steve Bell might be down to pressure from them.

I don’t believe for one minute that anyone here hates Jews so let’s discuss what is actually happening and park the imaginary stuff which is purely a tactic to deflect from the real issues.

Getting back to the issues, our PM, Rishi Sunak (or Doctor Death if you have been following the depressing Covid enquiry) made a speech yesterday with Netanyahu, looked at him and said “We hope you win”. Win? This is not a football match. Even if the campaign to flatten Gaza and kill every Hamas operative there, that will not be a “win”. All it will do is fuel more hatred, recruit more terrorists, justify further murderous attacks on innocent Jewish people. Destroy Hamas and its place will be taken by others. There is no win and a proper statesman would understand that.

A “win” would be a ceasefire and an ending of the bloodshed and destruction, humanitarian aid being supplied to those entrapped in Gaza and moves from the UN and all Arab states to find a mutually acceptable compromise that will lead to peace in the area in the future.

Sadly we still have to wait a year before we have a proper, grown up PM again but on the upside at least Trump is not involved (for now 🥴).

 

 

The old git doth protest too much

[whelk]

4 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So are you saying that The IHRA definition of anti-Semitism isn’t “grown up”, that the 20+ countries that accept & use this definition shouldn’t do so . They should just use the “Cambridge dictionary “ as that’s the grown up version. 

That’s a pretty ridiculous claim even for you. 
 

To help with your education & help you gain some understanding that your “hate or strong dislike of Jews” definition belongs in a year 6 lesson and not in a serious discussion. 
 

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
• Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
• Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
• Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

 

Surprised nothing referencing wealth and money in that list? Got enough money to influence Westminster 

Edited 20 October, 2023 by whelk

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I mentioned “Jews” because Duckhunter’s definition of anti-Semtisism mentioned “Jews

I missed this gem from earlier 😂

 

What did he expect the definition to mention, Hindus? Mormons? Fucking atheists? 

 

Is he really that dopey? 

 

 

Edited 20 October, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I missed this gem from earlier 😂

 

What did he expect the definition to mention, Hindus? Mormons? Fucking atheists? 

 

Is he really that dopey? 

 

 

I tried.

[Sheaf Saint]

5 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So are you saying that The IHRA definition of anti-Semitism isn’t “grown up”, that the 20+ countries that accept & use this definition shouldn’t do so . They should just use the “Cambridge dictionary “ as that’s the grown up version. 

That’s a pretty ridiculous claim even for you. 
 

To help with your education & help you gain some understanding that your “hate or strong dislike of Jews” definition belongs in a year 6 lesson and not in a serious discussion. 
 

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
• Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
• Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
• Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

My beef with the examples on this list is the penultimate one. It basically gives the Israeli government a free pass to implement really fucking awful policies similar to those passed by the Third Reich in the 1930s (like, say, a law that literally renders Arabic people second class citizens in their own homeland), safe in the knowledge they can just use accusations of antisemitism against anyone who criticises them for it. 

It's a massive deflection tactic, and a load of horseshit as far as I'm concerned. It contradicts the previous example about not applying double standards and requiring of it behaviour not expected of other nations. I expect all nations to not act like Nazis, and Israel are not exempt from this. If they do act like Nazis, then people should be free to call that out without being accused of antisemitism.

[The Kraken]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

I tried.

You weren’t the first and you most likely won’t be the last.

[Jonnyboy]

3 hours ago, whelk said:

The old git doth protest too much

What a surprise, Whelk pops up attacking all Muslims.

In the meantime, this is a good read 

https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/10/20/a-herd-of-independent-minds/

[Jonnyboy]

7 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So are you saying that The IHRA definition of anti-Semitism isn’t “grown up”, that the 20+ countries that accept & use this definition shouldn’t do so . They should just use the “Cambridge dictionary “ as that’s the grown up version. 

That’s a pretty ridiculous claim even for you. 
 

To help with your education & help you gain some understanding that your “hate or strong dislike of Jews” definition belongs in a year 6 lesson and not in a serious discussion. 
 

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
• Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
• Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
• Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

 

The irony is that many people (including Jews) on the right wing fall foul of the those examples themselves but never seem to suffer any sanction over it. Only those who advocate for Palestinian rights. Funny that.

[Jonnyboy]

On 18/10/2023 at 21:32, Lighthouse said:

Well there's the Holy book which commands death to not followers, for a start. Then there's the big Iranian missile with 'death to Israel' written in Hebrew on the side. Then there was the massive terrorist attack which killed over 1,000 innocent civilians, including children and the appaling videos of them being butchered as subhuman scum. Then there's the worldwide rise in anti-Semitic incidents, including threats to the safety of British children who attend Jewish schools but may well have absolutely zero links to Israel. Then there's the long standing denial by a large number of Gulf states that a Jewish state exists at all, with maps marked simply as 'occupied land' or left blank.

Enough to be getting on with?

No they don't. Why do Hamas have to negotiate, just because you want them to? Even if they did, I'll say the same as I did about Russia; what makes you think they'll pay any noticed what so ever to anything they pay lip service to in negotiation?

I'll pose the same question that I posed to Sheaf. Hamas want all the Jews dead, Israel want none. How many Jews do you kill in your opening bid?

Rather irresponsible of Netanyahu to funnel cash into bolstering Hamas then wouldn't you say?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister

[sadoldgit]

8 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You’re still struggling aren’t you.

You are comparing Putin & Russians to Netyanau & “Jews”. Not Israelis, but Jews. 

If The Nigerian government started bombing South Africa and I wrote that I didn’t blame The Blacks, but their Government. What would you call me? 

 

 

No I am not struggling. You know exactly what point I am making.

What would I call you? Maybe a Mossad Propaganda bot?

Odd that you can’t spell Netanyahu’s name correctly.

4 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I missed this gem from earlier 😂

 

What did he expect the definition to mention, Hindus? Mormons? Fucking atheists? 

 

Is he really that dopey? 

 

 

No, I am not that dopey. Once again you have either deliberately ignored my point or you haven’t understood it.

Just for avoidance of doubt, is it now anti-Semitic to refer to Jewish people as Jews now?

On a brighter note, two of the hostages taken by Hamas have been released. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Jonnyboy said:

What a surprise, Whelk pops up attacking all Muslim

That’s some leap even for a halfwit like you Jonny

Edited 20 October, 2023 by whelk

[benjii]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

 

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Just for avoidance of doubt, is it now anti-Semitic to refer to Jewish people as Jews now?

 

Nope.  Still hasn't got it.

For the last time.  Not all Israelis are jews.  Not all jews are Israeli.

It shouldn't be that hard to understand, and yet.....

[Lord Duckhunter]

10 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

 

No, I am not that dopey. 

Just for avoidance of doubt, is it now anti-Semitic to refer to Jewish people as Jews now?

 

You are either that dopey, or you’re anti semitic. Which is it? 
 

 

[egg]

38 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Nope.  Still hasn't got it.

For the last time.  Not all Israelis are jews.  Not all jews are Israeli.

It shouldn't be that hard to understand, and yet.....

Israel is referred to as the Jewish State, but not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are Israeli. It's easy to see how there can be easy, non anti semitic misunderstanding. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Israel is referred to as the Jewish State, but not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are Israeli. It's easy to see how there can be easy, non anti semitic misunderstanding. 

Once maybe, twice perhaps, over a dozen times? 
 

Blaming Jews for the actions of Israel is anti semitic. He’s done this over and over and not just in this thread. Despite people on his side of this debate pointing it out to him, he still does it. So I’m afraid it is a question of dopey or anti semitic. 
 

If I was constantly saying Blacks instead of Haiti, I’m sure you wouldn’t be giving me the benefit of the doubt or making excuses. 

[Weston Super Saint]

38 minutes ago, egg said:

Israel is referred to as the Jewish State, but not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are Israeli. It's easy to see how there can be easy, non anti semitic misunderstanding. 

Indeed.  But surely that misundestaning should disappear having had it pointed out numerous times over several months?

Unless you are really stupid or anti-semitic.

Edit : or, option 3.  The greatest wind up since the innernetz was born that just wants to appear to be a fucking idiot and anti-semitic.

Edited 21 October, 2023 by Weston Super Saint

[badgerx16]

3 hours ago, benjii said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

 

Perhaps the Palestinian air force can bomb some Israeli schools and hospitals in reprisal.

[rallyboy]

25 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Perhaps the Palestinian air force can bomb some Israeli schools and hospitals in reprisal.

No.

Palestine are always in an away game at Old Trafford - different rules apply in their box.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Once maybe, twice perhaps, over a dozen times? 
 

Blaming Jews for the actions of Israel is anti semitic. He’s done this over and over and not just in this thread. Despite people on his side of this debate pointing it out to him, he still does it. So I’m afraid it is a question of dopey or anti semitic. 
 

If I was constantly saying Blacks instead of Haiti, I’m sure you wouldn’t be giving me the benefit of the doubt or making excuses. 

I'm not going there mate. It was only a matter of time before people made this a SoG thread rather than focusing on the actual issues. All I'm saying is that we've had you refer to Israel as the Jewish state, which it is, so there is no criticism there. However, that is a term that in itself is a bit of a contradiction given that all Israeli's aren't Jews and all Jews aren't Israeli. By now SoG ought to have figured out the acceptable terminology, but terming the bloke anti-Semitic cos he hasn't isn't necessary imo - just cos he keeps giving you a stick to beat him with doesn't mean that that you need to beat with him with it. 

[RedArmy]

13 minutes ago, egg said:

By now SoG ought to have figured out the acceptable terminology, but terming the bloke anti-Semitic cos he hasn't isn't necessary imo - just cos he keeps giving you a stick to beat him with doesn't mean that that you need to beat with him with it. 

He would be the first to start throwing around claims of Islamophobia and right wing jibes if someone was saying the same things he’s said about Jews/Israel but about Muslims/Islam/Arab countries. 
 

Can’t have it both ways. 
 

[Turkish]

28 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm not going there mate. It was only a matter of time before people made this a SoG thread rather than focusing on the actual issues. All I'm saying is that we've had you refer to Israel as the Jewish state, which it is, so there is no criticism there. However, that is a term that in itself is a bit of a contradiction given that all Israeli's aren't Jews and all Jews aren't Israeli. By now SoG ought to have figured out the acceptable terminology, but terming the bloke anti-Semitic cos he hasn't isn't necessary imo - just cos he keeps giving you a stick to beat him with doesn't mean that that you need to beat with him with it. 

SoG makes the thread about himself throws the insult around then plays the victim, time after time. It's gone on for years.

[rallyboy]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

SoG makes the thread about himself throws the insult around then plays the victim, time after time. It's gone on for years.

So that'll be two pointless conflicts where neither side will let it go and the rest of us can only look on with dismay...

[sadoldgit]

5 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Nope.  Still hasn't got it.

For the last time.  Not all Israelis are jews.  Not all jews are Israeli.

It shouldn't be that hard to understand, and yet.....

Sorry but I don’t see what your response has to do what I wrote. I’ll try again with an example.

Last week the pro Palestinian March in London was joined by a number of Jewish people (I have no idea of their country of origin but that isn’t important here). They were very critical of Netanyahu’s latest moves which are harshly effecting innocent Palestinians. According to Duckhunter, if you criticise a Jew, that is anti-Semitism. They were critical of Netanyahu, who is Jewish. Does that make them anti-Semites? A simply yes or no will suffice.

The basic issue here is censorship. You should be able to reasonably criticise, question and hold to account anybody or anything, especially governments, without the fear of being shut down as a hater, unless of course you are happy living in an Orwellian world. If you adhere to the internationally agreed rules you should have nothing to fear on the world stage concerning your own conduct. Terrorists do not which leaves them open to condemnation. When States do not either, they are in no position to cry foul if they are also condemned for their actions.

Netanyahu and his government are currently facing a great deal of criticism for their response to the recent Hamas attacks and the handling of the Palestinian issues in general, not just from outside of Israel but also from within.

That does not make the people making these criticisms anti-Semites. This really shouldn’t even be an issue but it does demonstrate perfectly how this particular card has been played given that it is even being discussed at length on a football forum.

[The Kraken]

[Lord Duckhunter]

11 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

According to Duckhunter, if you criticise a Jew, that is anti-Semitism.

Dear god 

 

If you write things like this, then it is. 

 

If you wrote, I don’t like what the Israelis are doing in Gaza, then it is not. 
 

It’s not my definition of anti semitism it’s the international definition accepted by dozens of countries, dopey. 
 

 

 

[AlexLaw76]

24 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

According to SoG, if you criticise a Muslim, that is anti-Islam

You what?

[Weston Super Saint]

7 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

 They were critical of Netanyahu, who is Jewish. Does that make them anti-Semites? A simply yes or no will suffice.

Nope, still not got it.

I think we can put the greatest wind up since this dawn of the innernetz myth to bed.

To answer your question, NO.

To elaborate on the answer, they aren't because they aren't criticising the Jewish race, they're criticising the actions of one man who just happens to be a Jew.

Similarly, when you criticise Sunak you aren't being racist against all Hindus.

We all thought this was quite simple to grasp but now it just seems mean to mock you for not getting it.

[The Kraken]

15 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

We all thought this was quite simple to grasp but now it just seems mean to mock you for not getting it.

I think he gets it, he just for some reason seems to prefer using ‘Jews’ or ‘Jewish’ when talking about Israeli people and/or the Israeli government. As he said earlier on this page: “When I talk about what is happening in the Middle East I assumed that most people would understand that I was talking about the Israeli state rather than Jewish people as individuals.”

I mean, personally I don’t quite understand why anyone would carry on conflating the two terms. Especially when it’s been pointed out on numerous occasions. Maybe he just likes saying the word Jew, I don’t know.

[Tamesaint]

4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Nope, still not got it.

I think we can put the greatest wind up since this dawn of the innernetz myth to bed.

To answer your question, NO.

To elaborate on the answer, they aren't because they aren't criticising the Jewish race, they're criticising the actions of one man who just happens to be a Jew.

Similarly, when you criticise Sunak you aren't being racist against all Hindus.

We all thought this was quite simple to grasp but now it just seems mean to mock you for not getting it.

Haven't you got anything better to do with your life than go on and on about SOG?? It's the Saintsweb version of Godwin's Law. Every thread on here ends up with the saddoes queuing up to attack SOG.

 

Edited 22 October, 2023 by Tamesaint

[harvey]

I believe Hamas are affiliated with the larger Muslim Brotherhood network which believes in the complete destruction of Israel, therefore there is not going to be any easy way out of this either for Israel or the Palestinian people.....and quite frankly i find it sickening regarding the ongoing demonstrations in support of Palestine after the brutality waged on Israeli defenceless women and children on October 7th.

[badgerx16]

29 minutes ago, harvey said:

I believe Hamas are affiliated with the larger Muslim Brotherhood network which believes in the complete destruction of Israel, therefore there is not going to be any easy way out of this either for Israel or the Palestinian people.....and quite frankly i find it sickening regarding the ongoing demonstrations in support of Palestine after the brutality waged on Israeli defenceless women and children on October 7th.

Why can't people show aupport for the Palestinians and the way they are treated, and have been for decades, whilst at the same time comdemning, quite rightly, the Hamas terrorism ? Putting Gaza aside, are you aware of  the conditions on the West Bank ? Of the shootings and beatings perpetrated by Israeli settlers from illegal settlements, and the forcing of farmers off their family land, that the Israeli Police and Army, charged with maintaining security and Law and Order, do nothing to stop - quite often they simply stand by and watch as the violence unfolds.

This is not a black and white picture. Since Oct 7th far more Palestinians have died than Israelis killed in the attacks. Do you think this BBC correspondent supports the terrorism;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67180401

Edited 21 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[harvey]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Why can't people show aupport for the Palestinians and the way they are treated, and have been for decades, whilst at the same time comdemning, quite rightly, the Hamas terrorism ? Putting Gaza aside, are you aware of  the conditions on the West Bank ? Of the shootings and beatings perpetrated by Israeli settlers from illegal settlements, and the forcing of farmers off their family land, that the Israeli Police and Army, charged with maintaining security and Law and Order, do nothing to stop - quite often they simply stand by and watch as the violence unfolds.

This is not a black and white picture. Do you think this BBC correspondent supports the terrorism;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67180401

I completely get that it's not a black and white picture and the whole situation is very complicated, but Hamas butchered (literally) 13000 Israelis and there's price to pay for that.

[badgerx16]

18 minutes ago, harvey said:

I completely get that it's not a black and white picture and the whole situation is very complicated, but Hamas butchered (literally) 13000 Israelis and there's price to pay for that.

( I think you have put in one too many zeros ).

1300 Israelis killed, and current estimates are over 5000 Palestinians - has the price been paid yet ? How many more women and children are Israel jutified in killing before the butcher's bill has been redeemed ?

75 years on and they are still at each other's throats.

[Fan The Flames]

56 minutes ago, harvey said:

I believe Hamas are affiliated with the larger Muslim Brotherhood network which believes in the complete destruction of Israel, therefore there is not going to be any easy way out of this either for Israel or the Palestinian people.....and quite frankly i find it sickening regarding the ongoing demonstrations in support of Palestine after the brutality waged on Israeli defenceless women and children on October 7th.

The brutality wasn't done by the Palestinian people, i hope that helps.

[harvey]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

( I think you have put in one too many zeros ).

1300 Israelis killed, and current estimates are over 5000 Palestinians - has the price been paid yet ? How many more women and children are Israel jutified in killing before the butcher's bill has been redeemed ?

75 years on and they are still at each other's throats.

I stand corrected (1300)......no innocent lives should be lost on either side, but there will never be peace as long as one side seeks the complete annihilation of another.

[harvey]

10 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

The brutality wasn't done by the Palestinian people, i hope that helps.

I may be wrong here so correct me if so, but the Hamas manifesto that they were elected upon by the palestinian  people included that they were dedicated to the destruction of Israel?

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, harvey said:

I stand corrected (1300)......no innocent lives should be lost on either side, but there will never be peace as long as one side seeks the complete annihilation of another.

No, 'one side' does not. Hamas does. Hamas are not the Palestinian people, and only have political control over the Gaza Strip.

[badgerx16]

Just now, harvey said:

I may be wrong here so correct me if so, but the Hamas manifesto that they were elected upon by the palestinian  people included that they were dedicated to the destruction of Israel?

Hamas were not elected by the people of the West Bank. Also, do you really believe that the 'election' that brought them to power was free and fair ?

[harvey]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

No, 'one side' does not. Hamas does. Hamas are not the Palestinian people, and only have political control over the Gaza Strip.

But the Palestinian people voted for Hamas?