Israel

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

A lot of this stuff is being said at the moment, what is the evidence for this?

I'm glad you highlighted this. There is a perception of the Hamas ideology being slung around by people who refuse to acknowledge that Israel are at fault in any way. It seems to be nonsense created to justify a position. 

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

A lot of this stuff is being said at the moment, what is the evidence for this?

Well there's the Holy book which commands death to not followers, for a start. Then there's the big Iranian missile with 'death to Israel' written in Hebrew on the side. Then there was the massive terrorist attack which killed over 1,000 innocent civilians, including children and the appaling videos of them being butchered as subhuman scum. Then there's the worldwide rise in anti-Semitic incidents, including threats to the safety of British children who attend Jewish schools but may well have absolutely zero links to Israel. Then there's the long standing denial by a large number of Gulf states that a Jewish state exists at all, with maps marked simply as 'occupied land' or left blank.

Enough to be getting on with?

11 minutes ago, egg said:

Both sides in this dispute have to negotiate with an enemy who kill their people. There is no prospect of achieving anything if people essentially shrug their shoulders and say what's the fucking point, or steadfastly maintain that just one side needs to alter their behaviour. 

No they don't. Why do Hamas have to negotiate, just because you want them to? Even if they did, I'll say the same as I did about Russia; what makes you think they'll pay any noticed what so ever to anything they pay lip service to in negotiation?

I'll pose the same question that I posed to Sheaf. Hamas want all the Jews dead, Israel want none. How many Jews do you kill in your opening bid?

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

Well there's the Holy book which commands death to not followers, for a start. Then there's the big Iranian missile with 'death to Israel' written in Hebrew on the side. Then there was the massive terrorist attack which killed over 1,000 innocent civilians, including children and the appaling videos of them being butchered as subhuman scum. Then there's the worldwide rise in anti-Semitic incidents, including threats to the safety of British children who attend Jewish schools but may well have absolutely zero links to Israel. Then there's the long standing denial by a large number of Gulf states that a Jewish state exists at all, with maps marked simply as 'occupied land' or left blank.

Enough to be getting on with?

No they don't. Why do Hamas have to negotiate, just because you want them to? Even if they did, I'll say the same as I did about Russia; what makes you think they'll pay any noticed what so ever to anything they pay lip service to in negotiation?

I'll pose the same question that I posed to Sheaf. Hamas want all the Jews dead, Israel want none. How many Jews do you kill in your opening bid?

Jeez. Where to start.

You have said above that Hamas want all Jews to die. You then support that by referencing a holy book. You then reference one missile in Iran that couldn't take out all the Jews. Your statement is just daft. 

You also said above that no Jews want Palestinians to die. Have you overlooked the many killings of Palestinians by the IDF and settler's? 

You also overlook that Israel don't want a Palestinian state. You overlook that they grab land and settle. 

I'm not sure why you feel that Hamas don't need to negotiate. Both sides do - you can't reach a bilateral agreement unilaterally.

Your question is based on your flawed perception, and conflate Jews and Israelis. Israel's government kills Palestinians daily that it does not have to. That's a fact. It's killing people in Gaza in the thousands that it doesn't have to. You can't overlook that and naively sat that nobody on the Israeli side wants Palestinians dead. 

 

[Sheaf Saint]

17 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Well there's the Holy book which commands death to not followers, for a start. Then there's the big Iranian missile with 'death to Israel' written in Hebrew on the side. Then there was the massive terrorist attack which killed over 1,000 innocent civilians, including children and the appaling videos of them being butchered as subhuman scum. Then there's the worldwide rise in anti-Semitic incidents, including threats to the safety of British children who attend Jewish schools but may well have absolutely zero links to Israel. Then there's the long standing denial by a large number of Gulf states that a Jewish state exists at all, with maps marked simply as 'occupied land' or left blank.

Enough to be getting on with?

No they don't. Why do Hamas have to negotiate, just because you want them to? Even if they did, I'll say the same as I did about Russia; what makes you think they'll pay any noticed what so ever to anything they pay lip service to in negotiation?

I'll pose the same question that I posed to Sheaf. Hamas want all the Jews dead, Israel want none. How many Jews do you kill in your opening bid?

And I'm still not going to answer that because it's a stupid question. You know full well that's not what I meant when I used the word compromise.

Hamas may desire the eradication of Israel, but Netenyahu has openly said he wants to turn Gaza into a deserted pile of rubble. How is that any less sinister than what Hamas want?

Edited 18 October, 2023 by Sheaf Saint

[hypochondriac]

27 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

A lot of this stuff is being said at the moment, what is the evidence for this?

Are you suggesting there is no evidence that Hamas don't want to wipe out Israel? 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

Jeez. Where to start.

You have said above that Hamas want all Jews to die. You then support that by referencing a holy book. You then reference one missile in Iran that couldn't take out all the Jews. Your statement is just daft. 

You also said above that no Jews want Palestinians to die. Have you overlooked the many killings of Palestinians by the IDF and settler's? 

You also overlook that Israel don't want a Palestinian state. You overlook that they grab land and settle. 

I'm not sure why you feel that Hamas don't need to negotiate. Both sides do - you can't reach a bilateral agreement unilaterally.

Your question is based on your flawed perception, and conflate Jews and Israelis. Israel's government kills Palestinians daily that it does not have to. That's a fact. It's killing people in Gaza in the thousands that it doesn't have to. You can't overlook that and naively sat that nobody on the Israeli side wants Palestinians dead. 

 

The only person who is naive is the one continually using the term about people who disagree with you. 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The only person who is naive is the one continually using the term about people who disagree with you. 

Anyone suggesting that there's no desire for Israeli's to kill Palestinians is living in some kind of fantasy world. I know it distorts your bizarre perception Hypo, but it's been happening for years, and is happening today. 

[Fan The Flames]

This is quite something,

Israel has said it used 6,000 bombs in the first six days of the conflict, more than the US used in a year during its operations in Afghanistan and double what the US-led coalition used against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria in a month.

From https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/18/al-ahli-arab-hospital-piecing-together-what-happened-as-israel-insists-militant-rocket-to-blame?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

This is quite something,

Israel has said it used 6,000 bombs in the first six days of the conflict, more than the US used in a year during its operations in Afghanistan and double what the US-led coalition used against Islamic State in Iraq and Syria in a month.

From https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/18/al-ahli-arab-hospital-piecing-together-what-happened-as-israel-insists-militant-rocket-to-blame?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Wow. And all that from an Israeli state trying not to kill civilians, or damage civilian infrastructure. 

As the UN said, the rules of war have to be followed whatever the provocation. 

[Lighthouse]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

You have said above that Hamas want all Jews to die. You then support that by referencing a holy book. You then reference one missile in Iran that couldn't take out all the Jews. Your statement is just daft.

I never said one missile could take out all the Jews, you've completely made that up. It's an Iranian missile with 'death to Israel' written on the side. Not 'only a couple of them', or 'only the Politicians' or 'only military targets. No - 'death to Israel'. And if you want to tell Hamas militants that them believing their own holy book is 'just daft', then I'd rather you tell them that than me.

8 minutes ago, egg said:

You also said above that no Jews want Palestinians to die. Have you overlooked the many killings of Palestinians by the IDF and settler's? 

I never said anything of the sort, again completely made up. Look back up the thread if you interested, I've said from the start Israeli revenge will be ruthless, indiscriminate and innocent Palestinians will suffer.

10 minutes ago, egg said:

You also overlook that Israel don't want a Palestinian state. You overlook that they grab land and settle. 

I have never defended any of that, what they do in the West Bank is human rights abuse. Whether Israel could live next to a peaceful Palestinian state, if Hamas theoretically didn't exist, I've genuinely no idea. We'll likely never know sadly.

12 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm not sure why you feel that Hamas don't need to negotiate. Both sides do - you can't reach a bilateral agreement unilaterally.

Because they don't want to, you want them to. What part of parasailing into a music festival, gunning down innocent teenagers and parading their bodies through the streets says, "hey, lets sit down and have a civilised chat." This argument has been done before with ISIS years ago.

15 minutes ago, egg said:

Your question is based on your flawed perception, and conflate Jews and Israelis. Israel's government kills Palestinians daily that it does not have to. That's a fact. It's killing people in Gaza in the thousands that it doesn't have to. You can't overlook that and naively sat that nobody on the Israeli side wants Palestinians dead. 

I don't conflate Jews and Israelis, those that want them dead do, that is literally my point. There are people out there who genuinely wish to kill British school children, who happen to share the same religion as the Israelis and nothing else. That's the conflation, it's not mine, it's that of the Hamas sympathisers. I haven't overlooked anything; the point being debated is the need for negotiation. If you want me to clarify that Israel's Bomber Harris like blitz of civilian areas in Gaza is wrong, I scarcely think that needs pointing out and as such I didn't.

15 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

And I'm still not going to answer that because it's a stupid question.

Hamas may desire the eradication of Israel, but Netenyahu has openly said he wants to turn Gaza into a deserted pile of rubble. How is that any less sinister than what Hamas want?

It's not a stupid question, they quite litterally want death, they are murderous terrorists. If you want to negotiate, you have to offer them something they want. You are offering them (I assume) zero dead Israelis and are therefore 100% on Israels side in this so called negotiation.

The last bit is just whataboutery. I'm not even going to argue that it's wrong, all you're really proving there is that there is double the reason that peaceful negotiation is pretty much impossible. 

[whelk]

I am starting to think egg has been radicalised 

[Fan The Flames]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Are you suggesting there is no evidence that Hamas don't want to wipe out Israel? 

I'm talking about where is Hamas's mission statement, policy, charter, terms of  reference that states this. I would be interested in seeing it.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I'm talking about where is Hamas's mission statement, policy, charter, terms of  reference that states this. I would be interested in seeing it.

So if you don't think that's the aim of Hamas, what do you think are their aims? 

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, egg said:

Anyone suggesting that there's no desire for Israeli's to kill Palestinians is living in some kind of fantasy world. I know it distorts your bizarre perception Hypo, but it's been happening for years, and is happening today. 

The motivations are entirely different. The only one with a bizarre perception or wilful ignorance is yourself with your odd assertion that they are in some way the same. 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I never said one missile could take out all the Jews, you've completely made that up. It's an Iranian missile with 'death to Israel' written on the side. Not 'only a couple of them', or 'only the Politicians' or 'only military targets. No - 'death to Israel'. And if you want to tell Hamas militants that them believing their own holy book is 'just daft', then I'd rather you tell them that than me.

I never said anything of the sort, again completely made up. Look back up the thread if you interested, I've said from the start Israeli revenge will be ruthless, indiscriminate and innocent Palestinians will suffer.

I have never defended any of that, what they do in the West Bank is human rights abuse. Whether Israel could live next to a peaceful Palestinian state, if Hamas theoretically didn't exist, I've genuinely no idea. We'll likely never know sadly.

Because they don't want to, you want them to. What part of parasailing into a music festival, gunning down innocent teenagers and parading their bodies through the streets says, "hey, lets sit down and have a civilised chat." This argument has been done before with ISIS years ago.

I don't conflate Jews and Israelis, those that want them dead do, that is literally my point. There are people out there who genuinely wish to kill British school children, who happen to share the same religion as the Israelis and nothing else. That's the conflation, it's not mine, it's that of the Hamas sympathisers. I haven't overlooked anything; the point being debated is the need for negotiation. If you want me to clarify that Israel's Bomber Harris like blitz of civilian areas in Gaza is wrong, I scarcely think that needs pointing out and as such I didn't.

It's not a stupid question, they quite litterally want death, they are murderous terrorists. If you want to negotiate, you have to offer them something they want. You are offering them (I assume) zero dead Israelis and are therefore 100% on Israels side in this so called negotiation.

The last bit is just whataboutery. I'm not even going to argue that it's wrong, all you're really proving there is that there is double the reason that peaceful negotiation is pretty much impossible. 

Apologies, I misread Israel want no Jews dead as Israel want no Palestinians dead. 

I CBA to go through the rest as we're plainly poles apart. However you cut it, there needs to be collective effort, discussion and change to have even a modicum of hope for that. However, the Israeli response is only going to make things worse. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

I am starting to think egg has been radicalised 

Bless. I just don't support murderous regimes, whether Israeli or Arab Whelk. Give it a try. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Apologies, I misread Israel want no Jews dead as Israel want no Palestinians dead. 

I CBA to go through the rest as we're plainly poles apart. However you cut it, there needs to be collective effort, discussion and change to have even a modicum of hope for that. However, the Israeli response is only going to make things worse. 

What part of the Hamas response has made anything better? What collective effort or discussion is going to remove Hamas from their present stance of wanting to kill the Jews and remove them from Israel? Like Lighthouse said, the same argument was put forward about ISIS (in fact I believe it was soggy who advanced it on here) and it was proven to be absolute nonsense. What destroyed them was significant amounts of force. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

The motivations are entirely different. The only one with a bizarre perception or wilful ignorance is yourself with your odd assertion that they are in some way the same. 

What was the motivation of the IDF in these situations? If not death of Palestinians, what was it? Shooting kids with live bullets in response to throwing stones is wilfully murderous on any assessment. 

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-as-protesters-throwing-stones-are-shot-by-israeli-snipers-this-is-part-of-normal-life-for-the-west-bank-12987221

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Bless. I just don't support murderous regimes, whether Israeli or Arab Whelk. Give it a try. 

Still trying to conflate the two. You're the blinkered one and what's sad is you don't even realise it and think it's everyone else. 

[egg]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

What part of the Hamas response has made anything better? What collective effort or discussion is going to remove Hamas from their present stance of wanting to kill the Jews and remove them from Israel? Like Lighthouse said, the same argument was put forward about ISIS (in fact I believe it was soggy who advanced it on here) and it was proven to be absolute nonsense. What destroyed them was significant amounts of force. 

How does any ideology based on hate get eliminated by mass killing and destruction? 

And yes, I maintain that it's naive to believe that you can smash an ideology, and a movement, in this way. 

I don't have the solution, but it isn't what we're seeing. 

[badgerx16]

51 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Well there's the Holy book which commands death to not followers, for a start.

https://www.alislam.org/articles/why-does-quran-say-that-infidels-should-be-killed/

[egg]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Still trying to conflate the two. You're the blinkered one and what's sad is you don't even realise it and think it's everyone else. 

Not agreeing with a couple of people on a forum doesn't make me wrong Hypo. It makes us disagree. 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

What was the motivation of the IDF in these situations? If not death of Palestinians, what was it? Shooting kids with live bullets in response to throwing stones is wilfully murderous on any assessment. 

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-as-protesters-throwing-stones-are-shot-by-israeli-snipers-this-is-part-of-normal-life-for-the-west-bank-12987221

Again, if Hamas had not threatened and then carried out multiple deadly attacks against Israel and it's citizens then there would not be any response- deadly or otherwise. It's only because of ongoing killings and murdering (some of which are mentioned in that very article) that the response from Israel exists - whether you agree with it or not. If Hamas suddenly decided to preach peace and called for open borders etc, you wouldn't have Israeli's parachuting into Gaza and torturing innocents jn the name of their imaginary God. That isn't the case the other way round and that's the stark difference you refuse to accept. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

How does any ideology based on hate get eliminated by mass killing and destruction? 

And yes, I maintain that it's naive to believe that you can smash an ideology, and a movement, in this way. 

I don't have the solution, but it isn't what we're seeing. 

The truth is you will never be able to eliminate the ideology because it is so ingrained in these people. It's like ISIS you will never be able to fully eliminate it but you will be able to cripple it to an extent that it loses its capacity to harm you in such a manner in the short to medium term. Ideally I'd like peace but that would have to mean that Hamas completely sheds its desire to murder Jews and recognises Israeli's right to exist and that isn't going to happen. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Again, if Hamas had not threatened and then carried out multiple deadly attacks against Israel and it's citizens then there would not be any response- deadly or otherwise. It's only because of ongoing killings and murdering (some of which are mentioned in that very article) that the response from Israel exists - whether you agree with it or not. If Hamas suddenly decided to preach peace and called for open borders etc, you wouldn't have Israeli's parachuting into Gaza and torturing innocents jn the name of their imaginary God. That isn't the case the other way round and that's the stark difference you refuse to accept. 

Explain how the Hamas actions of 7/10 justify the IDF, in an area not controlled by Hamas, killing or maiming kids days later (and before) with live ammunition for throwing stones? Where's the defence of Israel? It's wanton killing. 

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

Not agreeing with a couple of people on a forum doesn't make me wrong Hypo. It makes us disagree. 

If that's the case then it would help if you avoided unnecessary inflammatory language like blinkered and naive then. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Explain how the Hamas actions of 7/10 justify the IDF, in an area not controlled by Hamas, killing or maiming kids days later (and before) with live ammunition for throwing stones? Where's the defence of Israel? It's wanton killing. 

I don't necessarily agree with this particular incident- I don't know the context and the article only presents one side- but my point is why any response (disproportionate or not) exists. You could say that the IDF have acted aggressively or with disproportionate forcebwhich I am sure they have at times, yet this atmosphere and reaction would not exist if they weren't surrounded on all sides by countries who want to kill them and by Hamas in particular on their doorstep. Like I said, if the attitude of Hamas was one of peace then the response woukd be entirely different. Not so if the situation was reversed. You know that's true. 

[egg]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

If that's the case then it would help if you avoided unnecessary inflammatory language like blinkered and naive then. 

Calling out naive comments isn't  inflammatory. It's a forum. Don't shoot it down. Suggesting that someone has been radicalised, and calling people cunts, pricks, anti semitic, and the other nonsense we've seen on this thread is inflammatory though. 

I'll leave it here hypo. I'm of the firm view that you are blinkered to the reality, depth and nuances of this situation, and seem unable to look at anything pre 7/10. It's clear what you think about my position. 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

Calling out naive comments isn't  inflammatory. It's a forum. Don't shoot it down. Suggesting that someone has been radicalised, and calling people cunts, pricks, anti semitic, and the other nonsense we've seen on this thread is inflammatory though. 

I'll leave it here hypo. I'm of the firm view that you are blinkered to the reality, depth and nuances of this situation, and seem unable to look at anything pre 7/10. It's clear what you think about my position. 

 

 

I am of the firm view that you are utterly blind to the realities of the situation and are weirdly trying to conflate the two sides when they are entirely separate with differing motivations. It doesn't make Israel perfect or even particularly good but it is absolutely clear who is the antagonist in this scenario and who has more people on their side of the divide who would gleefully take the opportunity to torture and remove the other side from existence if given the opportunity and use their holy book as some sort of justification. 

I'm on the side of Israel having a right to exist and having the right to prevent those who would torture old women and kidnap children from doing so. I'm perfectly aware there was a history prior to this month, it doesn't change what has happened and that Hamas knew what the response was going to be. 

Like you said, best you leave it there. 

Edited 18 October, 2023 by hypochondriac

[Fan The Flames]

Some Israeli and Jewish groups among the protestors at the Israeli Embassy in Washington yesterday.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/18/1206893627/from-amman-to-d-c-protests-erupt-for-palestinians-following-the-gaza-hospital-bl

[Fan The Flames]

The section with Sir Alex Younger, former chief of MI6 is worth a listen. He articulates a position at the end of his interview, that many on here agree with.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001r9mn?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

[sadoldgit]

I can’t be bothered to read all of the flood of posts from hypochondriac since he woke up but he seems to have outdone himself this time, even compared with his obsessive posts in the transfer thread. His hatred of all Muslims whether peace loving or extremists is well documented on this forum (I will never forget the “thank God I’m not married to a Muslim” post).

If you listen to any intelligent, well balanced individual talking about these issues you will here nothing but an understanding that there are no good guys in this conflict. There is bloody minded intransigence    on both sides driven by ultra nationalism,  religious intolerance and historic conflict and those paying the price are totally innocent women and children on both sides, in their thousands.

How you can condemn the murder of innocent people by Hamas terrorists but not condemn state murder carried out by the Israelis shows the same blinkered thinking that also labels people anti-Semitic when they are nothing of the sort.

If things aren’t depressing enough, the world is in a mess, the Middle East is a tinder box and we send out our top diplomats,  Rishi Sunak and James Cleverly. If there was a perfect example of how far the UK has sunk on the world stage, this is it.

Edited 19 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Sp

[AlexLaw76]

Ah, the US have finally decided to allow aid through....

Jolly nice of them after a good week of this.

[Raging Bull]

15 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

A lot of this stuff is being said at the moment, what is the evidence for this?

One of the Hamas leaders was interviewed on al jazeera recently and when pushed by the interviewer, actually admitted that they want all Jews killed and Isreal eradicated. 
 

He started off by saying it’s only the “settlers” he wanted removed, but by the end of the interview admitted that anyone in Israel that wasn’t a muslim was a settler 

15 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Well there's the Holy book which commands death to not followers, for a start. Then there's the big Iranian missile with 'death to Israel' written in Hebrew on the side. Then there was the massive terrorist attack which killed over 1,000 innocent civilians, including children and the appaling videos of them being butchered as subhuman scum. Then there's the worldwide rise in anti-Semitic incidents, including threats to the safety of British children who attend Jewish schools but may well have absolutely zero links to Israel. Then there's the long standing denial by a large number of Gulf states that a Jewish state exists at all, with maps marked simply as 'occupied land' or left blank.

Enough to be getting on with?

No they don't. Why do Hamas have to negotiate, just because you want them to? Even if they did, I'll say the same as I did about Russia; what makes you think they'll pay any noticed what so ever to anything they pay lip service to in negotiation?

I'll pose the same question that I posed to Sheaf. Hamas want all the Jews dead, Israel want none. How many Jews do you kill in your opening bid?

Possibly for the first time ever, I agree with @Lighthouse

 

Edited 19 October, 2023 by Raging Bull

[Lord Duckhunter]

16 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

 

 

What is neither logical nor mature is to label anyone criticising  the Israeli treatment of Palestinians over the years as anti-Semitic, as you do.
 

 

No I don’t.

I call people who criticise Jews  anti semitic. Posts like your first one on this thread (even before the present escalation) are anti semitic. That’s not illogical or immature, it’s a fact. 

 

 

 

 

[badgerx16]

I see that those "really smart people", Hezbollah ( © Donald J Trump October 2023 ), are ramping things up at the northern Israeli border with Lebanon.

Edited 19 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[Fan The Flames]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

No I don’t.

I call people who criticise Jews  anti semitic. Posts like your first one on this thread (even before the present escalation) are anti semitic. That’s not illogical or immature, it’s a fact. 

 

 

 

 

You disagree with the above, so do I. Do you agree that, whilst some small factions of religious nutters on both sides might, the majority of the Israelis and the Palestinians do not want to remove each other from the land between the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean.

Edited 19 October, 2023 by Fan The Flames

[whelk]

7 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

we send out our top diplomats,  Rishi Sunak and James Cleverly. If there was a perfect example of how far the UK has sunk on the world stage,

Have you considered they are significantly more informed and less bigoted than you?

[AlexLaw76]

8 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

we send out our top diplomats,  Rishi Sunak and James Cleverly. If there was a perfect example of how far the UK has sunk on the world stage, this is it.

Thank god. It could have been Jeremy Corbyn and Emily Thornbury

[badgerx16]

18 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Thank god. It could have been Jeremy Corbyn and Emily Thornbury

Do you think the Israelis would have let them in ?

[sadoldgit]

9 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

No I don’t.

I call people who criticise Jews  anti semitic. Posts like your first one on this thread (even before the present escalation) are anti semitic. That’s not illogical or immature, it’s a fact. 

 

 

 

 

I’ll come to your bizarre notion that somehow Jewish people are above criticism just by dint of being Jews in a moment.

I am surprised that I have to defend my post as I thought that the basic principle was self evident, that being that the mass murder and mass displacement of innocent men, women and children is indefensible, inexcusable and contravenes not just international law but any level of basic human decency. This is the same no matter who the victims are - Jews, Muslims, Arabs or any other religions, races, creeds.

No one has the moral, divine or legal right to treat others like that, not even Jews. Genocide is genocide, no matter who the perpetrators are.

Your assertion that anybody that criticises Jews is an anti-Semite is bizarre, even for you. On what level does being Jewish mean that you are not accountable for your actions without the person holding you to account being labelled an anti-Semite? Do you really not understand how ridiculous that is?

By your logic anyone calling out Harvey Weinstein for being a rapist is an anti-Semite.

If your view is that the Israeli government is entitled to do whatever it wants, where ever it wants to whoever it wants, fine. But don’t label people anti-Semites if they don’t agree with you.

I don’t see any anti-Semites on this thread, but there might be a few Islamophobes. Stop conflating sympathy for innocent Palestinians with support for Hamas.

What is a “fact” is that you are still stuck in the 1970’s and you often make Alf Garnett look “woke”.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-arrested-at-jewish-us-capitol-rally-demanding-israeli-ceasefire-in-gaza/amp/

Anti-semites?

Edited 19 October, 2023 by sadoldgit
Added text

[badgerx16]

SOG, a piece of friendly advice.

When posting, try to understand the semantic difference between referring to 'Jews' or 'Jewish', and Israel or Israeli. Critcising 'Jews' over the actions of the Israeli Government Is, I hope, a slip on your part - but one that is guaranteed to lead to misconception and feed those perpetuating the image of your being anti-semitic, ( which I sincerely hope you are not ).

Whilst the members of the Israeli Government are Jewish, their actions and decisions should not be couched as being solely due to or guided by their faith - plenty of Israelis, whether Jewish or not, do not support what their Government is doing. Netanyahu has a particular political stance, which people might agree or disagree with, but they should not be criticisng him because of his religion.

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

SOG, a piece of friendly advice.

When posting, try to understand the semantic difference between referring to 'Jews' or 'Jewish', and Israel or Israeli. Critcising 'Jews' over the actions of the Israeli Government Is, I hope, a slip on your part - but one that is guaranteed to lead to misconception and feed those perpetuating the image of your being anti-semitic, ( which I sincerely hope you are not ).

Once is a slip.  Over and over and over again.....

[Lord Duckhunter]

51 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Once is a slip.  Over and over and over again.....

According to the IHRA, which is  an international body whose definition of anti semitism is accepted by 34 members countries & 7 other countries, Soggy has been posting anti semitic thoughts. Despite it being pointed out to him on countless occasions, he continues to do so. Is he either an idiot who can’t comprehend or understand, or is an anti semite. To clarify, the accepted definition of it includes the following;

 

“Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel”

 

It’s not a one off, it happens over and over. It’s been pointed out to him countless times. 😩

Edited 20 October, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[Lord Duckhunter]

10 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I’ll come to your bizarre notion that somehow Jewish people are above criticism just by dint of being Jews in a moment.

I am surprised that I have to defend my post as I thought that the basic principle was self evident, that being that the mass murder and mass displacement of innocent men, women and children is indefensible, inexcusable and contravenes not just international law but any level of basic human decency. This is the same no matter who the victims are - Jews, Muslims, Arabs or any other religions, races, creeds.

No one has the moral, divine or legal right to treat others like that, not even Jews. Genocide is genocide, no matter who the perpetrators are.

Your assertion that anybody that criticises Jews is an anti-Semite is bizarre, even for you. On what level does being Jewish mean that you are not accountable for your actions without the person holding you to account being labelled an anti-Semite? Do you really not understand how ridiculous that is?

By your logic anyone calling out Harvey Weinstein for being a rapist is an anti-Semite.

If your view is that the Israeli government is entitled to do whatever it wants, where ever it wants to whoever it wants, fine. But don’t label people anti-Semites if they don’t agree with you.

I don’t see any anti-Semites on this thread, but there might be a few Islamophobes. Stop conflating sympathy for innocent Palestinians with support for Hamas.

What is a “fact” is that you are still stuck in the 1970’s and you often make Alf Garnett look “woke”.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-arrested-at-jewish-us-capitol-rally-demanding-israeli-ceasefire-in-gaza/amp/

Anti-semites?

Educate yourself man.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

10 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

No one has the moral, divine or legal right to treat others like that, not even Jews. 

Your assertion that anybody that criticises Jews is an anti-Semite is bizarre.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-arrested-at-jewish-us-capitol-rally-demanding-israeli-ceasefire-in-gaza/amp/

Anti-semites?

To clarify for you as you are still struggling 

No, they are not anti-semites because they are calling out 'Israel' (i.e. the state of) for their actions.  Unlike you they aren't blaming the 'jews' for the actions of 'Israel'.

It's a subtle difference which one day you might get to grips with.

[egg]

29 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

According to the IHRA, which is  an international body whose definition of anti semitism is accepted by 34 members countries & 7 other countries, Soggy has been posting anti semitic thoughts. Despite it being pointed out to him on countless occasions, he continues to do so. Is he either an idiot who can’t comprehend or understand, or is an anti semite. To clarify, the accepted definition of it includes the following;

 

“Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel”

 

It’s not a one off, it happens over and over. It’s been pointed out to him countless times. 😩

I think it's clear from the tone and content of all of sog's posts on the subject that his issue is with Israel. I can't fathom why the penny hasn't dropped now that the semantics make a big difference, but hopefully after Badger's post it'll sink in. 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

To clarify for you as you are still struggling 

No, they are not anti-semites because they are calling out 'Israel' (i.e. the state of) for their actions.  Unlike you they aren't blaming the 'jews' for the actions of 'Israel'.

It's a subtle difference which one day you might get to grips with.

Same could be said of those who scream anti-semitism when one criticises Israel. They are making the same association between the country and the race.

[Weston Super Saint]

22 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Same could be said of those who scream anti-semitism when one criticises Israel. They are making the same association between the country and the race.

Who's doing that?

[rallyboy]

19 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Who's doing that?

Any of the many MPs who have been 'lobbied' by Israeli donations for the past decade.

It's been a very common theme for years, criticise the actions of the Israel military, await the predictable and lazy accusation.