Israel

[Lighthouse]

15 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I thought the Troubles were entirely rooted in religious intolerance and discrimination.

Yeah but really though? Do you think some skinhead growing up on an estate in Derry in 1970 actually cred about Cardinal Wolsey, Anne Boleyn and Thomas Cromwell? Catholics and Protestant were just the team names.

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Israel’s existence is the reason for Hamas’ existence. People want to join them to wipe Jews and/or the Jewish state off the face of the earth, I don’t know how many times it needs to be repeated before people get it. The Israeli retaliation will invariably make things worse but remember; the initial terror attack which killed 1500 innocent people, from a variety of different countries, happened first.

Why do people want to join Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, Boko-Haram or ISIS?

Because religious bigots know how to manipulate the gullible and those who feel disenfranchised. How many virgins are they promised in the Land of Milk and Honey ?

[whelk]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Because religious bigots know how to manipulate the gullible and those who feel disenfranchised. How many virgins are they promised in the Land of Milk and Honey ?

I thought land of milk and honey was the promised land for the Jews?

[egg]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Hold on. If the Israeli authorities had the power to do so, I don't believe they would kill and maim every Palestinian in Palestine. The same cannot be said for Hamas who would relish the opportunity. There isn't a moral equivalence. 

Where does all this equivalence talk come from? 

Where there is equivalence:

There are two sides at fault.

Two sides who don't want the other to exist.

Two sides who want their own state.

Two sides killing the people of the other.

Where there is not equivalence:

One side doing a hell of a lot more killing and causing a hell of a lot more destruction. 

Anyone who believes that Israel do not want to see all Palestinians off of what they see as Israeli land is misguided and naive. The assault on Gaza ain't about getting rid of Hamas. It's about getting rid of the Palestinians.

And Hamas are not Palestinians. 

 

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

I thought land of milk and honey was the promised land for the Jews?

Jannah, the Islamic Paradise, has four rivers; "There are four rivers: one each of water, milk, honey, and wine"

[hypochondriac]

21 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

And bombing Gaza into a "wilderness of rubble" is going to fix things ?

So again, what's your realistic alternative? Israel wants to get rid of as much of Hamas as they can. Hamas cares nothing for human life, uses civilians as human shields and stores weapons and hideouts in hospitals. If you want to get rid of a large amount of Hamas then unfortunately there will be some unavoidable civilian casualties due to how Hamas operate. Beyond the bellicose rhetoric from both sides, Israel simply has to respond to the slaughter and terrorism and it's unrealistic to expect them not to do so. 

[badgerx16]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

So again, what's your realistic alternative? Israel wants to get rid of as much of Hamas as they can. Hamas cares nothing for human life, uses civilians as human shields and stores weapons and hideouts in hospitals. If you want to get rid of a large amount of Hamas then unfortunately there will be some unavoidable civilian casualties due to how Hamas operate. Beyond the bellicose rhetoric from both sides, Israel simply has to respond to the slaughter and terrorism and it's unrealistic to expect them not to do so. 

But they are therefore not 'getting rid of Hamas', and round 547 of the contest will revisit the previous 546 once Hamas' have rebuilt themselves.

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Jannah, the Islamic Paradise, has four rivers; "There are four rivers: one each of water, milk, honey, and wine"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_and_Honey#:~:text="Milk and honey" is a,flowing with milk and honey".
 

Milk and honey" is a phrase from Exodus (Exodus 3:8) referring to the Promised Land of Judaism as "a land flowing with milk and honey".

[egg]

56 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Palestine were offered that opportunity in the 1940s by the UN. They declined. 

How does that help now?

What's the solution now? Several eyes for 1 eye? Destroying Gaza? 

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, whelk said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_and_Honey#:~:text="Milk and honey" is a,flowing with milk and honey".
 

Milk and honey" is a phrase from Exodus (Exodus 3:8) referring to the Promised Land of Judaism as "a land flowing with milk and honey".

Which is evidence of the common heritage of the Abrahamic religions. Adam, Moses, Abraham, John the Baptist, even Jesus, exist in Islam as great prophets.

Edited 18 October, 2023 by badgerx16

[egg]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Amen. That's the precise difference. Hamas have caused this. 

Only if a) you focus on the event since 7/10, and b) have a complete lack of regard for proportionality and international law 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

I thought the Troubles were entirely rooted in religious intolerance and discrimination.

Correct. No where near the religious intolerance of Hamas though.

At least with Ireland they technically all worshipped the same God, just one was salt and vinegar and the other cheese and onion.

With Hamas, they believe their God has given them permission to kill all the Jews.

[hypochondriac]

48 minutes ago, egg said:

How does that help now?

What's the solution now? Several eyes for 1 eye? Destroying Gaza? 

My point is they don't want to share anything with Israel as evidenced by the fact that they have turned down more than one opportunity when offered. A large number want to slaughter them all. 

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Correct. No where near the religious intolerance of Hamas though.

At least with Ireland they technically all worshipped the same God, just one was salt and vinegar and the other cheese and onion.

With Hamas, they believe their God has given them permission to kill all the Jews.

Not just permission, they believe they are commanded to do so. 

[egg]

24 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

My point is they don't want to share anything with Israel as evidenced by the fact that they have turned down more than one opportunity when offered. A large number want to slaughter them all. 

You're not focusing on the whole picture. Hamas as an organisation does not want Israel to exist. The Israeli government, representing the country, does not want a Palestine to exist. 

Your focus on what the Arab people decided in the 1940's, and what Hamas did on 7/10, but completely ignoring the 75 years in between and the events of the last 12 days, is a very strange approach. 

[Weston Super Saint]

Interesting.

Definitely not conclusive but certainly leaning towards the hospital being hit by a Palestinian rocket, rather than an Israeli bomb / missile :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67144061

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Interesting.

Definitely not conclusive but certainly leaning towards the hospital being hit by a Palestinian rocket, rather than an Israeli bomb / missile :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67144061

This line is probably the most pertinent:

"Several experts we spoke to were not willing to put forward a view on what happened".

That tells me that it's inconclusive, and that credible experts aren't willing to stick their head out. 

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, egg said:

This line is probably the most pertinent:

"Several experts we spoke to were not willing to put forward a view on what happened".

That tells me that it's inconclusive, and that credible experts aren't willing to stick their head out. 

 

4 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Interesting.

Definitely not conclusive but certainly leaning towards the hospital being hit by a Palestinian rocket, rather than an Israeli bomb / missile :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67144061

 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

 

but certainly leaning towards

Certainly leaning, or inconclusive ? 

I'm with inconclusive. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

You're not focusing on the whole picture. Hamas as an organisation does not want Israel to exist. The Israeli government, representing the country, does not want a Palestine to exist. 

 

 

Hamas, representing the Gaza population, doesn’t want Jews to exist. That’s the difference.
 

If every Jew in Isreal moved to Egypt, Hamas would still murder them. If every Palestinian moved to Egypt, Israeli’s would get on with their lives. 
 

Palestinians live & work in Isreal, those that do are safe & are treated decently by 99.9% of the population. You can bet your life Jews wouldn’t be in “Palestine”. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

 

That tells me that it's inconclusive, and that credible experts aren't willing to stick their head out. 

Some of you made your minds up last night. I wonder why 🤔 

[revolution saint]

The Bellingcat investigation into the hospital attack:  https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/

Nothing really conclusive although somewhat contradicts the Israeli claim that there were no craters.  Bellingcat is really good for fact checking this kind of stuff so would be worth keeping an eye on whether they come up with anything else.

[egg]

19 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

Hamas, representing the Gaza population, doesn’t want Jews to exist. That’s the difference.
 

If every Jew in Isreal moved to Egypt, Hamas would still murder them. If every Palestinian moved to Egypt, Israeli’s would get on with their lives. 
 

Palestinians live & work in Isreal, those that do are safe & are treated decently by 99.9% of the population. You can bet your life Jews wouldn’t be in “Palestine”. 

What's the relevance to Jews being in Palestine? That's not part of the discussion. 

Do Israel want Palestine to exist?

Have Hamas killed more Jews, than Israel have Arabs?

Hamas and the Israeli regime are both murderous bastard's. 

Any suggestion that Arabs in Israel are treated equally is horribly wide of reality.

Generally speaking, you are very selective in your focus. You completely overlook settlements, and every other legitimate Palestinian complaint.

 

Edited 18 October, 2023 by egg

[egg]

11 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Some of you made your minds up last night. I wonder why 🤔 

I suspect there's more a few on here who lurched to the conclusion that the Palestinians had done it. I'm sure I know why. 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

27 minutes ago, egg said:

Certainly leaning, or inconclusive ? 

I'm with inconclusive. 

Certainly not the level of certainty that major news outlets or nation states had yesterday at any rate. 

[hypochondriac]

35 minutes ago, egg said:

What's the relevance to Jews being in Palestine? That's not part of the discussion. 

Do Israel want Palestine to exist?

Have Hamas killed more Jews, than Israel have Arabs?

Hamas and the Israeli regime are both murderous bastard's. 

Any suggestion that Arabs in Israel are treated equally is horribly wide of reality.

Generally speaking, you are very selective in your focus. You completely overlook settlements, and every other legitimate Palestinian complaint.

 

If Israel had decided not to respond, to allow any goods through to Palestine and allow free travel, do you think the violence against Israel would go up or down? Do you think Hamas would become peaceful and no longer attack? That this course of action would put more or less weapons in the hands of Hamas?

However, if Hamas decided that their goal was to work towards improving the lot of the Palestinian people, stop attacks, recognise Israel's right to exist, use foreign aid to improve infrastructure etc and this stance is maintained for a number of years, then most of the problems would be solved. Hamas has the power to make things better but they refuse. Because they hate Israel and want all Israelis dead. 

[badgerx16]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

 Hamas has the power to make things better but they refuse. Because they hate Israel and want all Israelis dead. 

And because Iran tells them so. This is in reality a bigger picture than just Israel and Palestine, and will need more than those 2 to work out the solution..

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

And because Iran tells them so. This is in reality a bigger picture than just Israel and Palestine, and will need more than those 2 to work out the solution..

Yes they are involved as well but my point is that if Hamas was so inclined, they could work towards solving the problems but they won't because they've sworn to eradicate Jews from Israel and they believe that the qaran gives them that justification. Israelis don't have that option because if they just allowed Hamas to do what it wanted, they would end up with more death and slaughtering. So there's one side who wants to commit genocide given the opportunity and another side who if they stopped their defensive actions-whether you agree with the or not- know that it would result in many or most of them being killed. 

Edited 18 October, 2023 by hypochondriac

[Lord Duckhunter]

42 minutes ago, egg said:

I suspect there's more a few on here who lurched to the conclusion that the Palestinians had done it. I'm sure I know why. 

 

 

I didn’t read anyone who claimed Palestinian’s had done it. Just people like you & Soggy blaming the Jewish state & believing Hamas’ claim. 

Edited 18 October, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[benjii]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

Hamas, representing the Gaza population, doesn’t want Jews to exist. That’s the difference.
 

If every Jew in Isreal moved to Egypt, Hamas would still murder them. If every Palestinian moved to Egypt, Israeli’s would get on with their lives. 
 

Palestinians live & work in Isreal, those that do are safe & are treated decently by 99.9% of the population. You can bet your life Jews wouldn’t be in “Palestine”. 

Jews lived in Palestine before the UN partition plan. There weren't many there, but they were fine. 

21 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

If Israel had decided not to respond, to allow any goods through to Palestine and allow free travel, do you think the violence against Israel would go up or down? Do you think Hamas would become peaceful and no longer attack? That this course of action would put more or less weapons in the hands of Hamas?

However, if Hamas decided that their goal was to work towards improving the lot of the Palestinian people, stop attacks, recognise Israel's right to exist, use foreign aid to improve infrastructure etc and this stance is maintained for a number of years, then most of the problems would be solved. Hamas has the power to make things better but they refuse. Because they hate Israel and want all Israelis dead. 

How's that theory working out for the West Bank Palestinians?

Edited 18 October, 2023 by benjii

[egg]

26 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

If Israel had decided not to respond, to allow any goods through to Palestine and allow free travel, do you think the violence against Israel would go up or down? Do you think Hamas would become peaceful and no longer attack? That this course of action would put more or less weapons in the hands of Hamas?

However, if Hamas decided that their goal was to work towards improving the lot of the Palestinian people, stop attacks, recognise Israel's right to exist, use foreign aid to improve infrastructure etc and this stance is maintained for a number of years, then most of the problems would be solved. Hamas has the power to make things better but they refuse. Because they hate Israel and want all Israelis dead. 

I think you're a tad blinkered Hypo. 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Some of you made your minds up last night. I wonder why 🤔 

Because they have been bombing the shit out of Gaza all week and have previously hit other hospitals and ambulances?

Getting to the truth with these sort of things during wartime is always going to be hard, it’s not hard to see why assumptions were made tho. Hopefully some independent experts can come to some conclusions.

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Some of you made your minds up last night. I wonder why 🤔 

Last night it was reported that the Israelis had hit a hospital in Gaza with the death toll in the many hundreds.

Given that the Israelis have previous for bombing hospitals and that they are currently reducing vast swathes of Gaza to rubble there seemed no reason to disbelieve the reports.

This morning we heard that it was the hospital car park that was hit and that it was possible that the damage could have been caused by a misfiring Hamas rocket.

Clearly not as first reported then but the waters are being muddied from misinformation from both sides (perhaps the Israeli guy who said there is no crater should go to Specsavers). 

So the situation stands that we don’t know what happened with any certainty so we await further details. Seems a logical and mature way to deal with it.

What is neither logical nor mature is to label anyone criticising  the Israeli treatment of Palestinians over the years as anti-Semitic, as you do.

Most people on this thread understand what is going on and what has been going on for decades, unlike you who have your colours firmly nailed to the Zionist mast and doesn’t seem to have a problem with women and children being murdered so long as they are Muslims.
 

 

[Sheaf Saint]

50 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

If Israel had decided not to respond, to allow any goods through to Palestine and allow free travel, do you think the violence against Israel would go up or down? Do you think Hamas would become peaceful and no longer attack? That this course of action would put more or less weapons in the hands of Hamas?

However, if Hamas decided that their goal was to work towards improving the lot of the Palestinian people, stop attacks, recognise Israel's right to exist, use foreign aid to improve infrastructure etc and this stance is maintained for a number of years, then most of the problems would be solved. Hamas has the power to make things better but they refuse. Because they hate Israel and want all Israelis dead. 

So the onus to compromise is all on Hamas is it? None whatsoever on Israel?

[hypochondriac]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

I think you're a tad blinkered Hypo. 

I could say likewise about yourself. We aren't going to agree because you don't recognise the clear and obvious difference between the two. (I note the reaction from the rest of the Muslim world too which has frankly been disgusting but not surprising.)

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

So the onus to compromise is all on Hamas is it? None whatsoever on Israel?

What compromise? Israel should be allowed to exist. They should stop blockades and recognise Palestine and allow the border to be open but they would be unable to do that presently as Palestine wants to murder them all. I have no doubt that if Hamas did what I had outlined that the call for Israel to respond woukd be deafening and imo they would respond positively. They aren't going to end the blockades now or lower their defences for obvious reasons. Why would they? 

Edited 18 October, 2023 by hypochondriac

[Lighthouse]

7 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

So the onus to compromise is all on Hamas is it? None whatsoever on Israel?

Hamas want all the Jews dead. Israel want none of the Jews dead. What would be your opening offer on this compromise, how many Jews should be killed?

[whelk]

16 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

So the onus to compromise is all on Hamas is it? None whatsoever on Israel?

Do you know what Hamas stand for?

[whelk]

20 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

unlike you who have your colours firmly nailed to the Zionist mast and doesn’t seem to have a problem with women and children being murdered so long as they are Muslims.

From Mr Humanity. Anyone disagrees this is the sort of shit he throws at them

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

From Mr Humanity. Anyone disagrees this is the sort of shit he throws at them

And he has the temerity to accuse others of calling him anti semitic for what he perceives to be something minor. It's staggering hypocrisy but pretty much par for the course for soggy. 

Edited 18 October, 2023 by hypochondriac

[whelk]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

And he has the temerity to accuse others of calling him anti semitic for what he perceives to be something minor. It's staggering hypocrisy but pretty much par for the course for soggy. 

I would argue anyone using a term ‘Zionist mast’ clearly had anti semitic views.

 

[Sheaf Saint]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What compromise? Israel should be allowed to exist. They should stop blockades and recognise Palestine and allow the border to be open but they would be unable to do that presently as Palestine wants to murder them all. I have no doubt that if Hamas did what I had outlined that the call for Israel to respond woukd be deafening and imo they would respond positively. They aren't going to end the blockades now or lower their defences for obvious reasons. Why would they? 

That's an absurd generalisation. Hamas does not represent all of Palestine.

The kind of compromise I'm talking about is, say, ending their illegal occupation of the West Bank. As long as they stick rigidly to their current policies, there is no chance of any compromise from Hamas. I'm not saying that's right, but if you want them to back down from their current stance then there has to be some sort of reciprocation. You can't possibly expect them to back down if the other side just continues with the status quo. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Sheaf Saint said:

That's an absurd generalisation. Hamas does not represent all of Palestine.

The kind of compromise I'm talking about is, say, ending their illegal occupation of the West Bank. As long as they stick rigidly to their current policies, there is no chance of any compromise from Hamas. I'm not saying that's right, but if you want them to back down from their current stance then there has to be some sort of reciprocation. You can't possibly expect them to back down if the other side just continues with the status quo. 

So you think if Israel ended their occupation of the West Bank that Hamas would then back down in some way from their current stance of wanting to kill all Jews and remove them? 

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

That's an absurd generalisation. Hamas does not represent all of Palestine.

The kind of compromise I'm talking about is, say, ending their illegal occupation of the West Bank. As long as they stick rigidly to their current policies, there is no chance of any compromise from Hamas. I'm not saying that's right, but if you want them to back down from their current stance then there has to be some sort of reciprocation. You can't possibly expect them to back down if the other side just continues with the status quo. 

Quite clearly not but they are the ones doing the killing, which means they’re the ones you would have to negotiate with, if it were possible. I’m in favour of all of the second paragraph but it’s entirely missing the point; that’s not what Hamas want. It may be what ordinary Palestinians want but literally any agreement between Israel and Palestine will not prevent the rocket attacks and terrorist murders of Hamas, which Israel will respond to with force, so it’s an entirely moot point.

[Sheaf Saint]

 

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So you think if Israel ended their occupation of the West Bank that Hamas would then back down in some way from their current stance of wanting to kill all Jews and remove them? 

I'm not so naive as to believe that would instantly solve all the problems and end the attacks, but in line with what I said previously, it would go some way towards weakening support for Hamas. This isn't going to be solved overnight. If their response to every Hamas attack is to wade in heavy handed, not caring how much collateral damage they cause in the process, the cycle of hatred will never end. 

It's a fucked up mess of a situation and I dont presume to have all the answers. But doing the same thing over and over and expecting things to change is insanity. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Sheaf Saint said:

 

I'm not so naive as to believe that would instantly solve all the problems and end the attacks, but in line with what I said previously, it would go some way towards weakening support for Hamas. This isn't going to be solved overnight. If their response to every Hamas attack is to wade in heavy handed, not caring how much collateral damage they cause in the process, the cycle of hatred will never end. 

It's a fucked up mess of a situation and I dont presume to have all the answers. But doing the same thing over and over and expecting things to change is insanity. 

So what form of compromise did you have from Hamas to try to improve the situation? Because hampering the ability of Hamas to acquire heavier weaponry has seemed like quite a good tactic from Israel thus far to limit the murder rate. 

[Fan The Flames]

2 hours ago, revolution saint said:

The Bellingcat investigation into the hospital attack:  https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/

Nothing really conclusive although somewhat contradicts the Israeli claim that there were no craters.  Bellingcat is really good for fact checking this kind of stuff so would be worth keeping an eye on whether they come up with anything else.

I trust Bellingcat. Question what is the significant of the lack of crater to the Israeli’s.

[egg]

39 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Quite clearly not but they are the ones doing the killing, which means they’re the ones you would have to negotiate with, if it were possible. I’m in favour of all of the second paragraph but it’s entirely missing the point; that’s not what Hamas want. It may be what ordinary Palestinians want but literally any agreement between Israel and Palestine will not prevent the rocket attacks and terrorist murders of Hamas, which Israel will respond to with force, so it’s an entirely moot point.

Both sides in this dispute have to negotiate with an enemy who kill their people. There is no prospect of achieving anything if people essentially shrug their shoulders and say what's the fucking point, or steadfastly maintain that just one side needs to alter their behaviour. 

 

[Fan The Flames]

55 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So you think if Israel ended their occupation of the West Bank that Hamas would then back down in some way from their current stance of wanting to kill all Jews and remove them? 

A lot of this stuff is being said at the moment, what is the evidence for this?

[Sheaf Saint]

38 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So what form of compromise did you have from Hamas to try to improve the situation? Because hampering the ability of Hamas to acquire heavier weaponry has seemed like quite a good tactic from Israel thus far to limit the murder rate. 

I'm not saying they shouldn't do that. But there must be better ways of achieving it that don't result in the near destruction of Gaza city.