Israel

[aintforever]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The point is that the aim for Israel is to prevent Hamas from doing it again. Doing something small and relatively inconsequential is just going to lead to Hamas doing the same thing again in a few years. I totally understand why Israel are getting to a point where they want to prevent this from happening again. 

Except killing thousands of innocent people and flattening a whole city is just going to create more future jihadis, and more support for the jihadis cause from surrounding countries. Making a future attack much more likely.

[Sheaf Saint]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The point is that the aim for Israel is to prevent Hamas from doing it again. Doing something small and relatively inconsequential is just going to lead to Hamas doing the same thing again in a few years. I totally understand why Israel are getting to a point where they want to prevent this from happening again. 

But they're not preventing it from happening again though. Their current actions are just perpetuating the cycle of hatred and violence, and breeding a whole new generation of Hamas supporters who will want to take revenge at some point in the future.

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

But they're not preventing it from happening again though. Their current actions are just perpetuating the cycle of hatred and violence, and breeding a whole new generation of Hamas supporters who will want to take revenge at some point in the future.

So what's your suggestion then? Because they can't just sit back and do nothing or do very little in the face of such a catastrophic attack. If it were my family so brutally tortured and murdered I'd be wanting action taken as well. 

[rallyboy]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

 If it were my family so brutally tortured and murdered I'd be wanting action taken as well. 

So would I, fucking right I would - but I'd want action to be taken against the people who did it.

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

 Pretty much shows what kind of person you are 

Exactly. 

Im the type of person who waits to see what happened, to see who blew up the hospital & whether it was intentional or not. 
 

Now you on the other hand are a different type of person. You’re either extremely knowledgeable about this particular incident, & have more insight & intelligence in the war zone than the BBC, British Government or the US Government added together. Or you’re the type who will automatically blame The Jews & claim they did it deliberately. 

Edited 18 October, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[Sheaf Saint]

24 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So what's your suggestion then? Because they can't just sit back and do nothing or do very little in the face of such a catastrophic attack. If it were my family so brutally tortured and murdered I'd be wanting action taken as well. 

Coming back to the point I made to Whelk in a previous post, it's not a simple binary choice between what they are currently doing or 'nothing'. There are a whole range of options in between those extremes. I'm not going to start suggesting exactly what they should have done, because I'm not a military strategist, but I do believe that the destruction they have rained down on Gaza so far is way too excessive.

[Fan The Flames]

The west were in Afghanistan for 20 years post 9/11 and couldn't get rid of the Taliban. The Taliban rode back into town just as the US planes were taking off. You can't destroy militant groups.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, rallyboy said:

So would I, fucking right I would - but I'd want action to be taken against the people who did it.

By all accounts, many of them are hiding in civilian populations or effectively using civilians as human shields. That makes it incredibly difficult to take action against the correct people without some civilian casualties. Personally I'd hold Hamas responsible for many of them given that they clearly don't give a toss about the average Palestinian. 

[hypochondriac]

50 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Coming back to the point I made to Whelk in a previous post, it's not a simple binary choice between what they are currently doing or 'nothing'. There are a whole range of options in between those extremes. I'm not going to start suggesting exactly what they should have done, because I'm not a military strategist, but I do believe that the destruction they have rained down on Gaza so far is way too excessive.

OK then so their current action is too excessive as a response to the worst terror attack against Jews since the Holocaust. I think we accept that their aim is to get rid of as much of Hamas as they can to reduce the chances of this happening again in the near future. You aren't willing to suggest what they might do as you're not a military strategist but it would be good to know what someone like yourself would view as a proportional response that would not keep the status quo of this just happening again. 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

The west were in Afghanistan for 20 years post 9/11 and couldn't get rid of the Taliban. The Taliban rode back into town just as the US planes were taking off. You can't destroy militant groups.

So don't bother trying then? Just accept terrorists hangliding into your country and indiscriminately murdering your fellow citizens? 

[The Kraken]

4 hours ago, aintforever said:

Israel claiming it was a miss-fired rocket from Islamic Jihad.

Hmmm I'm not sure. Do Islamic Jihad even have rockets with that sort of capability? The rockets they shoot off look like the ones that can be launched from the back of a 4x4, I've seen videos of them landing and they don't look like the type that could do that sort of damage. When was the last time one landed in Israel and killed anywhere near 500?

I don’t know what this is, but it’s not rocket science.

[Fan The Flames]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So don't bother trying then? Just accept terrorists hangliding into your country and indiscriminately murdering your fellow citizens? 

No, go after the terrorists, put them on trial, execute them, whatever. But you won't destroy the group or their ideology by smashing the place up.

There has to be a route map for peace in the region. 

[egg]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

The point is that the aim for Israel is to prevent Hamas from doing it again. Doing something small and relatively inconsequential is just going to lead to Hamas doing the same thing again in a few years. I totally understand why Israel are getting to a point where they want to prevent this from happening again. 

This won't stop Hamas. It's an organisation underpinninned by an ideology. Every death of the parent or sibling of a Palestinian child cements hate of Israel into that child. In time, that leads to a wish for vengeance from that child, and a perpetual cycle of hate/death/instability. Israel are doing the opposite of their stated ambition. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Coming back to the point I made to Whelk in a previous post, it's not a simple binary choice between what they are currently doing or 'nothing'. There are a whole range of options in between those extremes. I'm not going to start suggesting exactly what they should have done, because I'm not a military strategist, but I do believe that the destruction they have rained down on Gaza so far is way too excessive.

I spoke with an Jewish Brit yesterday. He has family in Israel who he describes as "caught up" in what has happened, but did not elaborate. His view is that the popular view in Israel is that they feel that the IDF actions have gone way too far, as has the settlement policy and other stuff. His view was that the Israeli populous would support a 3 state solution, with Israel having some of the west bank and that becoming an independent Palestinian state, Gaza (if there's anything left) a separate Palestine state, and Israel having it's own state. I'd never considered that an option, but I can see the wisdom. 

[Weston Super Saint]

43 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

 

There has to be a route map for peace in the region. 

Do terrorists like / abide by / follow "route maps" for peace?

I always assumed they were happy using terror to try and achieve their goals.

[aintforever]

21 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Do terrorists like / abide by / follow "route maps" for peace?

I always assumed they were happy using terror to try and achieve their goals.

Like The IRA?

[Fan The Flames]

16 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Do terrorists like / abide by / follow "route maps" for peace?

I always assumed they were happy using terror to try and achieve their goals.

Yes, no one wants a forever war. Talking generally, terror doesn't get terrorists what they want, what it can do is get them a place at the discussion table.

[badgerx16]

21 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Do terrorists like / abide by / follow "route maps" for peace?

I always assumed they were happy using terror to try and achieve their goals.

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, Nelson Mandela, Menachim Begin, Yasser Arafat...........

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

No, go after the terrorists, put them on trial, execute them, whatever. But you won't destroy the group or their ideology by smashing the place up.

There has to be a route map for peace in the region. 

"go after the terrorists." How? 

[hypochondriac]

58 minutes ago, egg said:

I spoke with an Jewish Brit yesterday. He has family in Israel who he describes as "caught up" in what has happened, but did not elaborate. His view is that the popular view in Israel is that they feel that the IDF actions have gone way too far, as has the settlement policy and other stuff. His view was that the Israeli populous would support a 3 state solution, with Israel having some of the west bank and that becoming an independent Palestinian state, Gaza (if there's anything left) a separate Palestine state, and Israel having it's own state. I'd never considered that an option, but I can see the wisdom. 

In what world would Hamas accept that? They want to wipe Israel off the map. They don't want any oslution that you involves the state of Israel continuing to exist in any form.

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In what world would Hamas accept that? They want to wipe Israel off the map. They don't want any oslution that you involves the state of Israel continuing to exist in any form.

There is no easy solution, but in similar vein Israel is not going to eliminate Palestinian militancy by force. All states and people's with "skin in the game" have to be addressed, and possibly the way to limit Hamas is to deal more effectively with Iran - the people pulling Hamas' strings.

[egg]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In what world would Hamas accept that? They want to wipe Israel off the map. They don't want any oslution that you involves the state of Israel continuing to exist in any form.

Do Hamas want an Israel any more than the Israeli government want a separate Palestine? The answer is that neither want the other, but Israel smashing the shit out of Gaza and knicking chunks of the West Bank ain't going to stop the Palestinians wanting what that they should have.

The need for acceptance of the reality doesn't rest with just the Palestinians. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Do Hamas want an Israel any more than the Israeli government want a separate Palestine? The answer is that neither want the other, but Israel smashing the shit out of Gaza and knicking chunks of the West Bank ain't going to stop the Palestinians wanting what that they should have.

The need for acceptance of the reality doesn't rest with just the Palestinians. 

Hold on. If the Israeli authorities had the power to do so, I don't believe they would kill and maim every Palestinian in Palestine. The same cannot be said for Hamas who would relish the opportunity. There isn't a moral equivalence. 

[aintforever]

15 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In what world would Hamas accept that? They want to wipe Israel off the map. They don't want any oslution that you involves the state of Israel continuing to exist in any form.

I expect there's plenty in Israel who feel the same way about the Palestinians.

Edited 18 October, 2023 by aintforever

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

There is no easy solution, but in similar vein Israel is not going to eliminate Palestinian militancy by force. All states and people's with "skin in the game" have to be addressed, and possibly the way to limit Hamas is to deal more effectively with Iran - the people pulling Hamas' strings.

With enough military force they can certainly reduce it's capacity to do what they did last week any time soon. Which is surely their aim. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, aintforever said:

I expect ere's plenty in Israel who feel the same way about the Palestinians.

When Israel fly into Palestine, torture and murder babies and young children, shoot families hiding in safe rooms, live stream the murder of grandmothers on their own social media then use their religious texts to justify it, I'll consider them the same. 

[Lighthouse]

40 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, Nelson Mandela, Menachim Begin, Yasser Arafat...........

They all had, rational goals which could be negotiated, which gives some ground for a compromise to be met. Hamas and Iran want the entire Jewish state wiped off the face of the Earth. They don’t want a free Palestine, they want a gone Israel.

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

When Israel fly into Palestine, torture and murder babies and young children, shoot families hiding in safe rooms, live stream the murder of grandmothers on their own social media then use their religious texts to justify it, I'll consider them the same. 

They don't need to do that, they can just turns whole neighbourhoods into rubble with their bombs. 

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

With enough military force they can certainly reduce it's capacity to do what they did last week any time soon. Which is surely their aim. 

Which is not solving the problem.

Would Hamas have such support as they have if Gaza and the West Bank were truly part of a self governing, independent state, where Israel had removed the illegal settlements, military checkpoints, the security barrier, and relinquished their stranglehold on essential utilities and transport ?

[Sheaf Saint]

15 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

In what world would Hamas accept that? They want to wipe Israel off the map. They don't want any oslution that you involves the state of Israel continuing to exist in any form.

Extremist organisations like Hamas need continuing injustice in order to recruit new members. If the vast majority of Palestinians were living freely in an independent state, free from Israeli occupation and oppression, then Hamas will find their recruitment much more difficult and over time their power and influence will become a lot more limited. It would take time to achieve, but ultimately would be worthwhile.

Taking the quicker and easier option of just carpet bombing Gaza and continuing to occupy the West Bank will only have the opposite effect.

 

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

They all had, rational goals which could be negotiated, which gives some ground for a compromise to be met. Hamas and Iran want the entire Jewish state wiped off the face of the Earth. They don’t want a free Palestine, they want a gone Israel.

So find a rational way to undermine their powerbase and make them irrelevant.

[andypen]

I just wonder how many of those poor people trying to flee northern Gaza blame HAMAS for their fate. HAMAS must have known what the Isreali response would be to what was an unprecedented, savage, and pretty pointless attack on civillians. I suppose it makes little difference to a child to have its throat slit or to be buried under rubble, but there is a moral difference. HAMAS care little for "their" people, the more that die the better for their propaganda.

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

So find a rational way to undermine their powerbase and make them irrelevant.

That bit’s easy, you just get the entire world to immediately give up religion and aggressive, tribal instinct.

[Weston Super Saint]

54 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Like The IRA?

Not in this case, no.

The IRA didn't hold radical religious views.

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So find a rational way to undermine their powerbase and make them irrelevant.

That's just idealistic nonsense. It's completely and utterly unrealistic. 

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, andypen said:

I just wonder how many of those poor people trying to flee northern Gaza blame HAMAS for their fate. HAMAS must have known what the Isreali response would be to what was an unprecedented, savage, and pretty pointless attack on civillians. I suppose it makes little difference to a child to have its throat slit or to be buried under rubble, but there is a moral difference. HAMAS care little for "their" people, the more that die the better for their propaganda.

Amen. That's the precise difference. Hamas have caused this. 

[Weston Super Saint]

9 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Which is not solving the problem.

Would Hamas have such support as they have if Gaza and the West Bank were truly part of a self governing, independent state, where Israel had removed the illegal settlements, military checkpoints, the security barrier, and relinquished their stranglehold on essential utilities and transport ?

I imagine that world is one where Israelis would be terrified if Hamas has the ability to roam free around the region.

Would make Hitler look like a boy scout.

[sadoldgit]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

With enough military force they can certainly reduce it's capacity to do what they did last week any time soon. Which is surely their aim. 

Not if they are being supported by Iran and others.

As Gandhi was supposed to have said, “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”.

As horrendous as last weekends attack was, there is a much bigger game at stake here. Hamas and their enablers quite clearly want to destabilise the area and are looking to goad the Israeli’s into military action that will then escalate and potentially draw others into the conflict.

I would assume the point of Biden’s meeting with the Israeli government is to try and hold them back from taking any action that will only result in more bloodshed and destruction. Most reasonable people understand that flattening Gaza is not the answer and will only cause more conflict.

The Israeli’s are meant to have the best intelligence agencies in the world. Is it really beyond their capability to take out key Hamas targets without killing hundreds of innocent people in the process?

It can’t be emphasised enough. The more women and children they murder, the more they are stoking up the hatred against them and the less chance their is for an eventual platform for working towards a peaceful settlement.

If retaliation and retribution is all you can focus on, this will never end and could also end up with a far greater conflict than what we have already.

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Which is not solving the problem.

Would Hamas have such support as they have if Gaza and the West Bank were truly part of a self governing, independent state, where Israel had removed the illegal settlements, military checkpoints, the security barrier, and relinquished their stranglehold on essential utilities and transport ?

Palestine were offered that opportunity in the 1940s by the UN. They declined. 

[whelk]

27 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

They all had, rational goals which could be negotiated, which gives some ground for a compromise to be met. Hamas and Iran want the entire Jewish state wiped off the face of the Earth. They don’t want a free Palestine, they want a gone Israel.

What did ISIS get at the negotiation table? 

[aintforever]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Palestine were offered that opportunity in the 1940s by the UN. They declined. 

I think you would expect opinions to have changed somewhat since then.

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Palestine were offered that opportunity in the 1940s by the UN. They declined. 

What opportunity ? In 1948 the Palestinians saw most of their land confiscated and occupied as they were displaced by a huge number of immigrants. At that point they saw no point in simply caving in and accepting the situation, reacting as most people would. Over 70 years later nobody has succeeded in sorting out the resultant mess.

[badgerx16]

30 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

That bit’s easy, you just get the entire world to immediately give up religion and aggressive, tribal instinct.

What, learn to love the Skates ? Never going to happen.

[badgerx16]

29 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not in this case, no.

The IRA didn't hold radical religious views.

I thought the Troubles were entirely rooted in religious intolerance and discrimination.

[badgerx16]

26 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's just idealistic nonsense. It's completely and utterly unrealistic. 

And bombing Gaza into a "wilderness of rubble" is going to fix things ?

[badgerx16]

27 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I imagine that world is one where Israelis would be terrified if Hamas has the ability to roam free around the region.

Would make Hitler look like a boy scout.

No, you work to eliminate the justification for Hamas' existence. Why do you think young Palestinians want to join them ?

[Fan The Flames]

Biden has been convinced that the hospital bombing was not by Israel.

[whelk]

9 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Why do you think young Palestinians want to join them ?

To go hand gliding? 
 

await earnest condemnation of my levity

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

No, you work to eliminate the justification for Hamas' existence. Why do you think young Palestinians want to join them ?

Israel’s existence is the reason for Hamas’ existence. People want to join them to wipe Jews and/or the Jewish state off the face of the earth, I don’t know how many times it needs to be repeated before people get it. The Israeli retaliation will invariably make things worse but remember; the initial terror attack which killed 1500 innocent people, from a variety of different countries, happened first.

Why do people want to join Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, Boko-Haram or ISIS?

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

To go hand gliding? 
 

await earnest condemnation of my levity

Not aware of anybody on here called Earnest.