Israel

[badgerx16]

  On 03/11/2023 at 21:54, aintforever said:

Just don’t see the problem in a march calling for a ceasefire, on a day that commemorates a ceasefire.

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Rememberence Day is not commemorating a ceasefire, it is commemorating the fallen soldiers, sailors, and airmen of the British and Commonwealth forces in all conflicts of the 20th and 21st centuries. The date is symbolic and was selected for poignancy.

Edited 3 November, 2023 by badgerx16

[harvey]

  On 03/11/2023 at 22:33, Weston Super Saint said:

Really?

Several hundred heavily armed soldiers who are sworn to protect the King come face to face with a protest march at the Cenotaph where the King just happens to be.

What could possibly go wrong?

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That's just common sense.... something that seems quite alien to some posters on here.

[harvey]

  On 03/11/2023 at 23:06, hypochondriac said:

What's the big deal. I say let the BNP have a peaceful March on Eid or Windrush day. I don't see the problem. 

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Exactly, it would never be allowed to happen by any government, nor should this march be permitted.

[Toadhall Saint]

The reasons for the march are justifiable. The day is not and should never be no matter what the reason. It’s a day for looking back and remembering those that have given their lives without question for this country.

[whelk]

  On 04/11/2023 at 06:24, Toadhall Saint said:

The reasons for the march are justifiable. The day is not and should never be no matter what the reason. It’s a day for looking back and remembering those that have given their lives without question for this country.

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It will definitely polarise views further if they disrupt any Remembrance commemorations.  Rightly this is a poignant day for many although seemingly not to others. You know, the peace guys

[whelk]

  On 03/11/2023 at 22:06, egg said:

You seem to be struggling to separate Hamas and the Palestinian people. 

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Different’ ‘they’ . They, the Palestinians could’ve had peace if they, Hamas didn’t attack. 

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 06:24, Toadhall Saint said:

The reasons for the march are justifiable. The day is not and should never be no matter what the reason. It’s a day for looking back and remembering those that have given their lives without question for this country.

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I'll remember in the Romsey memorial park as always. Plenty of others won't venture out, but will remember. Others won't remember at all. Some will be protesting. Some will be shopping, going to the gym, etc. That's their choice - they don't have to remember. 

Plenty of people choose not to remember. Going on a protest is no more disrespectful than choosing to do something else other than remember. 

My remembering is not diminished by anyone else not remembering. Nor is anyone else's. 

If the protests directly impact on remembrance that's an entirely different issue. If they don't, there is no issue. 

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 07:08, whelk said:

Different’ ‘they’ . They, the Palestinians could’ve had peace if they, Hamas didn’t attack. 

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Thanks - my misunderstanding. Apologies. 

[whelk]

  On 04/11/2023 at 07:16, egg said:

Thanks - my misunderstanding. Apologies. 

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Tbf was fair challenge as i had not written it clearly 

[aintforever]

  On 04/11/2023 at 07:15, egg said:

 

If the protests directly impact on remembrance that's an entirely different issue. If they don't, there is no issue. 

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This.

[hypochondriac]

  On 04/11/2023 at 07:15, egg said:

I'll remember in the Romsey memorial park as always. Plenty of others won't venture out, but will remember. Others won't remember at all. Some will be protesting. Some will be shopping, going to the gym, etc. That's their choice - they don't have to remember. 

Plenty of people choose not to remember. Going on a protest is no more disrespectful than choosing to do something else other than remember. 

My remembering is not diminished by anyone else not remembering. Nor is anyone else's. 

If the protests directly impact on remembrance that's an entirely different issue. If they don't, there is no issue. 

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Clearly they've chosen the date and location in order to impact on rememberance. Come on you're not silly. 

[Toadhall Saint]

  On 04/11/2023 at 08:04, hypochondriac said:

Clearly they've chosen the date and location in order to impact on rememberance. Come on you're not silly. 

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In all of this I have no support other than to stop the needless loss of life on both sides which, in my honest opinion is disgusting. If people want to protest then that is their decision but on rememberance Sunday I think shows a lack of respect and gives plenty of political ammunition to their detractors.

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 08:04, hypochondriac said:

Clearly they've chosen the date and location in order to impact on rememberance. Come on you're not silly. 

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Once again we'll agree to differ. You remember how you choose to, I'll do what I choose to, and these people will do what they choose to. You'll be as impacted by it as I will. The police will have the job of preventing direct impact in London. 

[Fan The Flames]

Do the National Front still march to the Cenotaph and lay wreaths?

I remember a NF lad from where we lived going up there in the 80's to distrupt the ceremony much to the shame of his parents.

[hypochondriac]

  On 04/11/2023 at 09:35, egg said:

Once again we'll agree to differ. You remember how you choose to, I'll do what I choose to, and these people will do what they choose to. You'll be as impacted by it as I will. The police will have the job of preventing direct impact in London. 

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You're just being deliberately obtuse. If that's what you really think that they haven't chosen that specific date for very specific reasons then all I can say is that the overwhelming majority of public opinion will disagree with you. 

[Turkish]

  On 04/11/2023 at 08:04, hypochondriac said:

Clearly they've chosen the date and location in order to impact on rememberance. Come on you're not silly. 

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Exactly, it’s an obvious tactic. Now there are rumours of a counter demonstration from what Sog would call the far right. I’m of the view that protests/marches should be allowed but this is simply and attempt to cause mass disruption and of course any counter demonstration from those opposed to it will play right into the hands of the likes of Sog who will be falling over each other to be the first to criticise it. 

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 14:10, Turkish said:

Exactly, it’s an obvious tactic. Now there are rumours of a counter demonstration from what Sog would call the far right. I’m of the view that protests/marches should be allowed but this is simply and attempt to cause mass disruption and of course any counter demonstration from those opposed to it will play right into the hands of the likes of Sog who will be falling over each other to be the first to criticise it. 

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Why is it obvious that people protesting for Palestine want to disrupt remembrance? They're gathering to call for peace. Sure, there'll be some nonsense and disruption from some idiots, but what makes you believe that's the intention/tactic? 

Edited 4 November, 2023 by egg

[Turkish]

  On 04/11/2023 at 14:20, egg said:

Why is it obvious that people protesting for Palestine want to disrupt remembrance? They're gathering to call for peace. Sure, there'll be some nonsense and disruption from some idiots, but what makes you believe that's the intention/tactic? 

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They could have chosen any other day, that’s why. 
 

and if it wanted to provoke a reaction they’ve done just that as looks like they’ll be a counter protest as well

Edited 4 November, 2023 by Turkish

[Lord Duckhunter]

Let’s hope it’s as peaceful as the one protesting Chinese genocide against the Uyghur Muslims. 

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 14:28, Turkish said:

They could have chosen any other day, that’s why. 
 

and if it wanted to provoke a reaction they’ve done just that as looks like they’ll be a counter protest as well

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That doesn't suggest that anyone wants to disrupt remembrance events. The organisers have said that they're liaising with the met over routes, and will stay away from the cenotaph area. People are jumping on the Sunak and Douglas Murray bandwagon.

Indeed, people like Murray ain't helping by calling the protesters "Hamas supporters". It won't be long before the government follow suit. 

[harvey]

  On 04/11/2023 at 14:20, egg said:

Why is it obvious that people protesting for Palestine want to disrupt remembrance? They're gathering to call for peace. Sure, there'll be some nonsense and disruption from some idiots, but what makes you believe that's the intention/tactic? 

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That's great!, so if they're gathering to call for peace that surely means I can rock up with an Israeli flag and be welcomed with open arms?......I mean they want peace don't they, so what better way to show it than walking side by side for peace?

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 15:56, harvey said:

That's great!, so if they're gathering to call for peace that surely means I can rock up with an Israeli flag and be welcomed with open arms?......I mean they want peace don't they, so what better way to show it than walking side by side for peace?

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What's that gotta do with remembrance day? 

[harvey]

  On 04/11/2023 at 16:02, egg said:

What's that gotta do with remembrance day? 

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I should have been clearer, my point was your inference that it is a march for peace.

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 16:44, harvey said:

I should have been clearer, my point was your inference that it is a march for peace.

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If some idiots want to make it something else, then the police have a job to do. But idiots being idiots doesn't make the organisers/protesters want to disrupt the remembrance stuff, which is the suggestion that people including Sunak are making. 

[Turkish]

  On 04/11/2023 at 14:57, egg said:

That doesn't suggest that anyone wants to disrupt remembrance events. The organisers have said that they're liaising with the met over routes, and will stay away from the cenotaph area. People are jumping on the Sunak and Douglas Murray bandwagon.

Indeed, people like Murray ain't helping by calling the protesters "Hamas supporters". It won't be long before the government follow suit. 

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Oh come on egg you’re not naive. You know as well as I do that in amongst the peaceful protesters there will be a significant element with another agenda. Likewise the counter protest will contain the same. 
 

They could chose any day but they’re choosing a day which is significant for a lot of people in this country 

I’m amazed the met police are allowing on that day. Probably because if they don’t they’ll be accused of islamaphonia. It’s a recipe for disaster even if the organisers are well intentioned

Edited 4 November, 2023 by Turkish

[Weston Super Saint]

....

Edited 4 November, 2023 by Weston Super Saint

[trousers]

  On 04/11/2023 at 17:26, Weston Super Saint said:

....

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Probably wise to delete given Armistice Day is next week...

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 17:11, Turkish said:

Oh come on egg you’re not naive. You know as well as I do that in amongst the peaceful protesters there will be a significant element with another agenda. Likewise the counter protest will contain the same. 
 

They could chose any day but they’re choosing a day which is significant for a lot of people in this country 

I’m amazed the met police are allowing on that day. Probably because if they don’t they’ll be accused of islamaphonia. It’s a recipe for disaster even if the organisers are well intentioned

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I'm not naive, but the suggestions that the purpose of the protest is to disrupt remembrance is nonsense. Yes, an element will be idiots, but that doesn't make the intention of the protest to disrupt remembrance or desecrate the cenotaph. The subject is completely unrelated. 

The counter protest will be interesting, and the government have thrown fuel on that by calling the protests "hate marches", and a few right wing commentators haven't helped by labelling supporters as "hamas supporters". 

All of that will make people more determined to protest. 

[Turkish]

  On 04/11/2023 at 17:39, egg said:

I'm not naive, but the suggestions that the purpose of the protest is to disrupt remembrance is nonsense. Yes, an element will be idiots, but that doesn't make the intention of the protest to disrupt remembrance or desecrate the cenotaph. The subject is completely unrelated. 

The counter protest will be interesting, and the government have thrown fuel on that by calling the protests "hate marches", and a few right wing commentators haven't helped by labelling supporters as "hamas supporters". 

All of that will make people more determined to protest. 

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Do you think the organisers are completely unaware that there will be those there on “their side” intent on causing an issue?

if they answer is no then they are incredibly naive, if the answer of yes then do they think it’s wise to organise a March on the one day of the year that is more than any other is likely to raise tensions.

The intention may not be to disrupt Remembrance Day but if they really believe there won’t be those in their ranks that will be wanting to do so they they are not fit to organise a March in the first place. They have every other day of the year to do it, why chose that day?

Edited 4 November, 2023 by Turkish

[trousers]

  On 04/11/2023 at 17:39, egg said:

that doesn't make the intention of the protest to disrupt remembrance or desecrate the cenotaph

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Why do it on the same day then? Wouldn't it be more logical to do it on another day if the aim isn't to interfere with the remembrance ceremony? #callmeoldfashioned #logic

Edited 4 November, 2023 by trousers

[aintforever]

  On 04/11/2023 at 17:48, trousers said:

Why do it on the same day then? Wouldn't it be more logical to do it on another day if the aim isn't to interfere with the remembrance ceremony? #callmeoldfashioned #logic

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Probably to get more publicity.

Edit: they have done it every Saturday since the war started.

Edited 4 November, 2023 by aintforever

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 17:48, trousers said:

Why do it on the same day then? Wouldn't it be more logical to do it on another day if the aim isn't to interfere with the remembrance ceremony? #callmeoldfashioned #logic

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So it's an assumption that they want to disrupt. If it's in another area (which they want) , starting later (which they want) and properly policed (which it should be) the 2 events will not interfere with each other. 

What we cannot do as a democratic society is clamp down on protests on a gut feeling it'll go wrong. 

#slippery slope

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 17:45, Turkish said:

Do you think the organisers are completely unaware that there will be those there on “their side” intent on causing an issue?

if they answer is no then they are incredibly naive, if the answer of yes then do they think it’s wise to organise a March on the one day of the year that is more than any other is likely to raise tensions.

The intention may not be to disrupt Remembrance Day but if they really believe there won’t be those in their ranks that will be wanting to do so they they are not fit to organise a March in the first place. They have every other day of the year to do it, why chose that day?

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They're doing them lots of days. Today included. Ditto tomorrow. What's essentially being suggested is that they shouldn't do it that day. In an ideal world they would have a day off, but they don't have to, and shouldn't be made to. 

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 04/11/2023 at 17:35, trousers said:

Probably wise to delete given Armistice Day is next week...

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Just goes to show, some people are always ahead of others

[Weston Super Saint]

There should be no need for a protest as Hamas will surely return all of the hostages, thus ensuring there is a pause in hostilities.

Right?

[Turkish]

  On 04/11/2023 at 18:24, egg said:

They're doing them lots of days. Today included. Ditto tomorrow. What's essentially being suggested is that they shouldn't do it that day. In an ideal world they would have a day off, but they don't have to, and shouldn't be made to. 

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You didnt respond to any of the questions, some more for you. 

why do you think to this particular March there has been a reaction from the so called far right?

do you think it’s the organisers responsibility as well as the police to avoid any potential for clashes and violence? 
 

of there is a potential risk to safety then absolutely they should be made not to protest, this doesn’t mean protests shouldn’t be allowed but there has to be some responsibility to ensure it can be done safely

[Turkish]

  On 04/11/2023 at 18:21, aintforever said:

Probably to get more publicity.

Edit: they have done it every Saturday since the war started.

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Yeah because the one thing this war is short of is publicity. Jesus wept 🤦

[Turkish]

  On 04/11/2023 at 18:22, egg said:

So it's an assumption that they want to disrupt. If it's in another area (which they want) , starting later (which they want) and properly policed (which it should be) the 2 events will not interfere with each other. 

What we cannot do as a democratic society is clamp down on protests on a gut feeling it'll go wrong. 

#slippery slope

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It’s more than a gut feeling. There are plenty of talks of a counter protest which is only going to result in things going one way. Just because we’re a democracy doesn’t mean we can be completely blasie in letting people just get on with it knowing full well there is a risk to public safety 

[AlexLaw76]

Unsure of the need to constantly bring central London to a halt. 
 

 

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 18:40, Turkish said:

You didnt respond to any of the questions, some more for you. 

why do you think to this particular March there has been a reaction from the so called far right?

Not for me to say, but Sunak has given them plenty of encouragement. 

do you think it’s the organisers responsibility as well as the police to avoid any potential for clashes and violence? 

Organisers can't manage the behaviour of individuals. 
 

of there is a potential risk to safety then absolutely they should be made not to protest, this doesn’t mean protests shouldn’t be allowed but there has to be some responsibility to ensure it can be done safely

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Answers above Del. I'm not sure if your questions suggest that you've moved away from your initial point that the protest has been organised to cause disruption, but that there is scope for disruption. If that's now your position, we are agreed. 

[Turkish]

  On 04/11/2023 at 14:57, egg said:

That doesn't suggest that anyone wants to disrupt remembrance events. The organisers have said that they're liaising with the met over routes, and will stay away from the cenotaph area. People are jumping on the Sunak and Douglas Murray bandwagon.

Indeed, people like Murray ain't helping by calling the protesters "Hamas supporters". It won't be long before the government follow suit. 

Expand  

 

  On 04/11/2023 at 19:33, egg said:

Answers above Del. I'm not sure if your questions suggest that you've moved away from your initial point that the protest has been organised to cause disruption, but that there is scope for disruption. If that's now your position, we are agreed. 

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Original point was in response to you saying no one wants to disrupt the Remembrance Sunday events, there will be, the organisers will know this and have a responsibility as well. 
 

I see it’s now kicking off in Trafalgar square at todays march, still think it’s just “a gut feel”?

[harvey]

  On 04/11/2023 at 17:00, egg said:

If some idiots want to make it something else, then the police have a job to do. But idiots being idiots doesn't make the organisers/protesters want to disrupt the remembrance stuff, which is the suggestion that people including Sunak are making. 

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We're not going to agree on this as I think you're taking a very simplistic and naive stance on this subject, and no doubt you feel the same about me.

Nevertheless, I hope everything goes peacefully next weekend....but I doubt it very much.

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 19:40, Turkish said:

 

Original point was in response to you saying no one wants to disrupt the Remembrance Sunday events, there will be, the organisers will know this and have a responsibility as well. 
 

I see it’s now kicking off in Trafalgar square at todays march, still think it’s just “a gut feel”?

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Nope, that's not how it went. My original point was that there's nothing disrespectful about protesting. Your point was "this is simply and attempt to cause mass disruption" on remembrance day. 

I've never said that there may not be issues. I've said that there'll likely be idiots. What I've also said is that the purpose of the protest is not an "attempt to cause mass disruption" as you claimed.

This rhetoric that the protestors are setting out primarily to disrupt remembrance day is nonsense. Sure, there may some disruption from those in attendance, but there's a world of difference between that and the actual objective of the event. 

[Turkish]

  On 04/11/2023 at 20:45, egg said:

Nope, that's not how it went. My original point was that there's nothing disrespectful about protesting. Your point was "this is simply and attempt to cause mass disruption" on remembrance day. 

I've never said that there may not be issues. I've said that there'll likely be idiots. What I've also said is that the purpose of the protest is not an "attempt to cause mass disruption" as you claimed.

This rhetoric that the protestors are setting out primarily to disrupt remembrance day is nonsense. Sure, there may some disruption from those in attendance, but there's a world of difference between that and the actual objective of the event. 

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Okay so let me get this straight 

im a protest organiser I choose any time or place to protest but I choose a time and place to protest where I know there is chance I might disrupt a traditional service 

I know the police force will be stretched that day dealing with the said service and protecting the attendees 
 

I know in my group there will be some people who are actively looking to cause issues 

I also am aware of a possible counter protest from another group which may be looking to confront my group

am I acting like responsible protest organiser? Is this really worlds apart from deliberate attempt to cause disruption?

 

[trousers]

  On 04/11/2023 at 18:22, egg said:

So it's an assumption that they want to disrupt. If it's in another area (which they want) , starting later (which they want) and properly policed (which it should be) the 2 events will not interfere with each other. 

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If that's the case, then I have no issue with it (I'm not really up to speed with the ins and outs of this situation, I just assumed, from what I'd heard/read, that they were aiming to coincide with the Armistice ceremony, rather than avoid it, but if what you say is correct, i.e. that the two events won't coincide, then fair enough, live and let live...)

Edited 4 November, 2023 by trousers

[egg]

  On 04/11/2023 at 20:58, Turkish said:

Okay so let me get this straight 

im a protest organiser I choose any time or place to protest but I choose a time and place to protest where I know there is chance I might disrupt a traditional service 

I know the police force will be stretched that day dealing with the said service and protecting the attendees 
 

I know in my group there will be some people who are actively looking to cause issues 

I also am aware of a possible counter protest from another group which may be looking to confront my group

am I acting like responsible protest organiser? Is this really worlds apart from deliberate attempt to cause disruption?

 

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You've shifted your position Del. If you're saying that the organisers knew that the protests may cause disruption, of course they did. That much is obvious. That's a world away from your original point that the purpose of the protests "is simply an attempt to cause mass disruption". 

The possible counter protest has been mentioned after the protest was announced. I'd hazard a guess that the motivation for that is almost entirely to cause disruption. 

 

[aintforever]

  On 04/11/2023 at 18:40, Turkish said:

Yeah because the one thing this war is short of is publicity. Jesus wept 🤦

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Publicity for the march not the war you bellend. People doing these things obviously want as many people to see and hear them as possible.

[trousers]

  On 04/11/2023 at 21:18, aintforever said:

Publicity for the march not the war you bellend. People doing these things obviously want as many people to see and hear them as possible.

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Do they want to piss people off or get people on their side? 

[aintforever]

  On 04/11/2023 at 21:19, trousers said:

Do they want to piss people off or get people on their side? 

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Think they just want to stop innocent people getting killed.

[trousers]

  On 04/11/2023 at 21:21, aintforever said:

Think they just want to stop innocent people getting killed.

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Fair enough. Probably best to get people on their side rather than piss people off then...

Edited 4 November, 2023 by trousers