Israel

[whelk]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:23, aintforever said:

That's not anti-semitic you thick fuck.

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Don’t get out of your depth sunshine. You ahow you have very limited ability to understand all types of subjects. This is Netanyahu distraction tactics eh? 

[whelk]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:20, aintforever said:

The deaths of innocent Palestinians is just as sad as Israelis.

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Wow  sort of wisdom we get from SOG

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:26, whelk said:

Don’t get out of your depth sunshine. You ahow you have very limited ability to understand all types of subjects. This is Netanyahu distraction tactics eh? 

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Brilliant. From someone who thinks criticising the way Israel was created is anti-semitic.  

 

[badgerx16]

  On 13/10/2023 at 06:58, whelk said:

This maybe unfair but I am getting the picture that you are quite the antisemite Badger. 

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  On 13/10/2023 at 07:22, whelk said:

 

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I guess that puts you firmly in the "hard of thinking" category.

To use your own phraseology, stop being such a cunt.

 

[whelk]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:34, aintforever said:

Brilliant. From someone who thinks criticising the way Israel was created is anti-semitic.  

 

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How’s your sadness pie chart coming on?

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:20, aintforever said:

As Israel have already killed more than Hamas in the last few days it's obvious why lighting it up in their colours wouldn't be appropriate.  

The deaths of innocent Palestinians is just as sad as Israelis.

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not to the Jewish community living in the area it isn't. 

 

[egg]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:00, Lord Duckhunter said:

Their motives are clearly to destroy Hamas & most probably their supporters . I don’t know whether they want to “punish” ordinary Palestinians who want to live in peace, but I doubt it. I can’t speak for The Government or millions of Israeli’s but I did speak to dozens & dozens on Sat & Sun morning whilst Hamas tried to blow us up, and to a man & women every single one understood the difference between Hamas & ordinary folk. Every single one was sad about the fate that was going to befall these innocents.  However, they were resolute in their views that Hamas had ultimately cost these people their lives,  as it was a consequence of their actions Sat morning. 

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I mean no disrespect Duck, but there's a naivety to this. Netanyahu has essentially said that he wants to flatten Gaza. He's doing that. He now wants the top half of Gaza to move south. That allows that half of the job to be finished. What do you think he'll do after that, leave the Palestinians to live in peace in the south? Of course he won't, he'll need the Palestinians out of there so he can finish the job there (or clear out Hamas as he'll sell it). Where do those people then go? The north is destroyed so it won't be there. It can only be Sinai. 

I may be wrong, but if the Palestinians move to south Gaza I'd be staggered if we don't see a max exodus of Palestinians to Sinai simply as there is nowhere else for them. They'll have next to nothing left to go back to, and even if they did, it'll be undoubtedly be under Israeli control. 

Let's see how this pans out, but this isn't about crushing Hamas. Sure, Hamas brought a response upon itself and the Palestinians, but what's happening and will happen is beyond the pale. 

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:30, whelk said:

Wow  sort of wisdom we get from SOG

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ainclevers only contribution to this thread has been to basically repeat the line "yeah but Israel have done....." over and over again then call someone a thick fuck. 

The irony. The insight 

Edited 13 October, 2023 by Turkish

[whelk]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:35, badgerx16 said:

 

I guess that puts you firmly in the "hard of thinking" category.

To use your own phraseology, stop being such a cunt.

 

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I apologise that was not called for, I do respect you and egg and some others (not all) although we clearly have differing views on this subject

[egg]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:26, whelk said:

Don’t get out of your depth sunshine. You ahow you have very limited ability to understand all types of subjects. This is Netanyahu distraction tactics eh? 

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Your full on with the petty insults and digs on this thread Whelk. How's about trying to address the actual issues and comments, rather than the posters. Just a thought, sunshine. 

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:36, Turkish said:

not to the Jewish community living in the area it isn't. 

 

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Genius.

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:40, aintforever said:

Genius.

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Another great contribution.

 

THe fact is you stated "it's obvious why it's not" I gave you a direct quote to say to some people it isn't and that's what you come back with? Whelk is right, stay out of this you're clearly out of your depth. 

[whelk]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:39, egg said:

Your full on with the petty insults and digs on this thread Whelk. How's about trying to address the actual issues and comments, rather than the posters. Just a thought, sunshine. 

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Sunshine is so much more pleasant than cunt, thanks.

[egg]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:38, whelk said:

I apologise that was not called for, I do respect you and egg and some others (not all) although we clearly have differing views on this subject

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This post crossed with yours. Hopefully we can all keep on topic, and he civil. I'll do my best. 

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:37, Turkish said:

ainclevers only contribution to this thread has been to basically repeat the line "yeah but Israel have done....." over and over again then call someone a thick fuck. 

The irony. The insight 

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So your genius contribution was that Jews would be more sad about the deaths of Jews than Palestinians.

Well done, great point as always. 

[badgerx16]

This is a 2017 map of the West Bank, nominally Palestinian Territory. Not only is a large part of it under direct Israeli control, there is a security barrier running round parts of it that divides Arab communities, and there are over 500 Israeli military checkpoints controling and checking on people's movements.

All of the Israeli settlements are in breach of UN resolutions, and Israeli occupation is contrary to the Oslo accords, which seek to enforce the pre 6-day war 1967 borders.

Of course Israel has a right to exist, any argument about that went out of the window in 1948, but the Palestinians must also have self-determination on lands they have legislative control over.

 

 

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:49, aintforever said:

So your genius contribution was that Jews would be more sad about the deaths of Jews than Palestinians.

Well done, great point as always. 

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that isn't what i said is it. Congratulations on yet again proving that being out of your depth is the shallow end of the babies pool

Im sure you'll get another laugh from Soggy though, who's floundering around in the same area with his arm bands on.

Edited 13 October, 2023 by Turkish

[Fan The Flames]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:36, Turkish said:

not to the Jewish community living in the area it isn't. 

 

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But you rightly said earlier in the thread, that picking a side isn't helpful. This is a very long, heavily layered, complex issue that makes this type of symbolism difficult.

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:08, Fan The Flames said:

But you rightly said earlier in the thread, that picking a side isn't helpful. This is a very long, heavily layered, complex issue that makes this type of symbolism difficult.

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I agree, again the point was simple though. Aintforver brashly claimed "it was obvious why the arch wasn't being lit up" in his usual everyone but me is thick style - but it isn't obvious to everyone, least of all the large Jewish community in the area. Particularly as the UK government recently came out and said we stand with Israel. MIxed messages is an understatement. 

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:11, Turkish said:

I agree, again the point was simple though. Aintforver brashly claimed "it was obvious why the arch wasn't being lit up" in his usual everyone but me is thick style - but it isn't obvious to everyone, least of all the large Jewish community in the area. Particularly as the UK government recently came out and said we stand with Israel. MIxed messages is an understatement. 

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It's not obvious that Palestine/Arabs with friends or relatives in Gaza might not like Wembley lit up in the colours of the country killing Palestinians?

Is that not obvious?

[Gloucester Saint]

It’s also worth pointing out that Netanyahu unpicked many tenets of the Oslo accord and he’s brought about anything but a ‘safe peace’ which is what he originally campaigned on in the mid-90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu

Hamas has also purged many of its opponents over time in the Palestinian Territories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

The issue is mistrust even though both broadly can see a two-state solution on pre-1967 borders eg one would always eliminate the others right to the Red Sea. Whilst there are extremists at the microphones it doesn’t help. 

[egg]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:11, Turkish said:

I agree, again the point was simple though. Aintforver brashly claimed "it was obvious why the arch wasn't being lit up" in his usual everyone but me is thick style - but it isn't obvious to everyone, least of all the large Jewish community in the area. Particularly as the UK government recently came out and said we stand with Israel. MIxed messages is an understatement. 

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It's different messages, but why should the FA follow the government position. Even the BBC have (to a fashion) have refused to follow orders  and call Hamas terrorists.

The FA position, particularly on the armbands, is respectfully neutral in terms of the impact of what's happened/happening on both sides. The arch decision, I suspect, is based on the same principles. 

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:36, egg said:

 Where do those people then go? The north is destroyed so it won't be there. It can only be Sinai. 

 

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Calais is the most likely destination at the moment, then on to good old blighty.

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:18, aintforever said:

It's not obvious that Palestine/Arabs with friends or relatives in Gaza might not like Wembley lit up in the colours of the country killing Palestinians?

Is that not obvious?

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It's probably more obvious that the FA is running scared that it might make them a target, especially on this 'international day of rage', combined with the anti-semitic protests that have already happened alomg with many more planned.

But I can see how the subtle nuances have passed you by as ever.

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:44, Weston Super Saint said:

It's probably more obvious that the FA is running scared that it might make them a target, especially on this 'international day of rage', combined with the anti-semitic protests that have already happened alomg with many more planned.

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Nope, that's all obvious as well. It's poor old Turkish who's having problems understanding.

[egg]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:30, Weston Super Saint said:

Calais is the most likely destination at the moment, then on to good old blighty.

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There's a certain irony to Britain, Egypt and France ending up with Palestinian refugees. Bloody sad though. 

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:18, aintforever said:

It's not obvious that Palestine/Arabs with friends or relatives in Gaza might not like Wembley lit up in the colours of the country killing Palestinians?

Is that not obvious?

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Yes, of course it is, but you brashly and arrogantly claimed it was obvious why it wasn't in your usual style. Which simply isn't true as i've already proven to you some groups of people aren't happy about it.

[AlexLaw76]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:18, aintforever said:

It's not obvious that Palestine/Arabs with friends or relatives in Gaza might not like Wembley lit up in the colours of the country killing Palestinians?

Is that not obvious?

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People form the Donbas region of Ukraine may not like the Arch lit up........ People who do not agree with BLM may not like players taking the knee.....

I know we really did not like World Cup in Qatar, many of the great and food said so (until they were lured by the £)

 

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:44, Weston Super Saint said:

It's probably more obvious that the FA is running scared that it might make them a target, especially on this 'international day of rage', combined with the anti-semitic protests that have already happened alomg with many more planned.

But I can see how the subtle nuances have passed you by as ever.

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As it always does. 

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 08:48, aintforever said:

Nope, that's all obvious as well. It's poor old Turkish who's having problems understanding.

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What is it exactly I struggling to understand?

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:01, Turkish said:

What is it exactly I struggling to understand?

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Why the FA are choosing not to light Wembley up in the colours of a country currently committing war crimes.

Do keep up.

[AlexLaw76]

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:10, aintforever said:

Why the FA are choosing not to light Wembley up in the colours of a country currently committing war crimes.

Do keep up.

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Happy to light it up for other nations and causes though

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:10, aintforever said:

Why the FA are choosing not to light Wembley up in the colours of a country currently committing war crimes.

Do keep up.

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Except that's not true. You said "it's obvious" why there not, it's you that seems to be struggling to explain who to some people it isn't. I think your reply was simply "genius". Wow, what an explanation!

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:14, AlexLaw76 said:

Happy to light it up for other nations and causes though

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Who are committing war crimes?

[sadoldgit]

  On 12/10/2023 at 19:29, whelk said:

Sanctimonious and clueless. Where would you be without Facebook and LBC phone ins?  Maybe just come out and say you don’t like Jews it might be cathartic..

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Because it isn’t true you very ignorant individual who persists on twisting things to suit his own agenda.

Where would I be without taking information from many different sources and coming to some sort of conclusions? Probably I would be in an ignorant fog.

I don’t have the level of understanding of the situation that someone like Rory Stewart has, that is why I listen to what he and others have to say. I don’t live in the Middle East which is why I listen to what people who live there have to say. I’m sorry that you have a problem with that.

So where were we? Oh yes, tell me, is a murdered Jewish baby more abhorrent than a murdered Arab baby in your opinion?

Last night I watched the BBC news (sorry I wasn’t actually there but it is 3000 miles away so I have to rely on the media for my news) and a dead child was pulled from the rubble. Apparently 447 children have been killed in Gaza so far. I wonder how many of those are Hamas members? I did hear it justified this morning by one person saying it is okay because some are probably children of Hamas members 😳

This morning I saw the picture in the Daily Telegraph of a dead baby murdered by Hamas over the weekend.

My feelings about both are exactly the same and I expect that most people feel the same. I find it very sad that you feel the need to try and twist support for any innocent people into some kind of attempt to prove anti-Semitism or support for a bunch of barbaric extremists.

Anyway, good to see that Egg has put you in your place. Try not falling into the usual trap that if you criticise the actions of the Israeli government that somehow you hate Jews. I thought you were smarter than that but you seem to have descended to the level of the usual suspects in this thread.

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:30, sadoldgit said:

Apparently 447 children have been killed in Gaza so far. I wonder how many of those are Hamas members? I did hear it justified this morning by one person saying it is okay because some are probably children of Hamas members 😳

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The sad thing is that if they were not they probably will be now.

[AlexLaw76]

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:23, aintforever said:

Who are committing war crimes?

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Ukraine have, but that's ok

Edited 13 October, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[whelk]

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:30, sadoldgit said:

Because it isn’t true you very ignorant individual who persists on twisting things to suit his own agenda.

Where would I be without taking information from many different sources and coming to some sort of conclusions? Probably I would be in an ignorant fog.

I don’t have the level of understanding of the situation that someone like Rory Stewart has, that is why I listen to what he and others have to say. I don’t live in the Middle East which is why I listen to what people who live there have to say. I’m sorry that you have a problem with that.

So where were we? Oh yes, tell me, is a murdered Jewish baby more abhorrent than a murdered Arab baby in your opinion?

Last night I watched the BBC news (sorry I wasn’t actually there but it is 3000 miles away so I have to rely on the media for my news) and a dead child was pulled from the rubble. Apparently 447 children have been killed in Gaza so far. I wonder how many of those are Hamas members? I did hear it justified this morning by one person saying it is okay because some are probably children of Hamas members 😳

This morning I saw the picture in the Daily Telegraph of a dead baby murdered by Hamas over the weekend.

My feelings about both are exactly the same and I expect that most people feel the same. I find it very sad that you feel the need to try and twist support for any innocent people into some kind of attempt to prove anti-Semitism or support for a bunch of barbaric extremists.

Anyway, good to see that Egg has put you in your place. Try not falling into the usual trap that if you criticise the actions of the Israeli government that somehow you hate Jews. I thought you were smarter than that but you seem to have descended to the level of the usual suspects in this thread.

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I’m in the usual suspects now hah. Those that think you are a soppy old fool who states the obvious whilst thinking he is the only righteous one? Yeah count me in.  Endless guff and so obvious you dont grasp the complexity of the situation. War bad. Thick cunt

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:42, AlexLaw76 said:

Ukraine have, but that's ok

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Maybe they have. Not sure they had when Wembley was lit up at the start of the invasion.

Anyway it's a call the FA has to make and it's obvious (well for some of us anyway) why they have chosen to be neutral in this case. Lighting up No10 just after the massacre was fair enough, lighting up Wembley whilst Israel are murdering innocent kids in their hundreds would not be a great idea IMO.

[AlexLaw76]

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:58, aintforever said:

Maybe they have. Not sure they had when Wembley was lit up at the start of the invasion.

Anyway it's a call the FA has to make and it's obvious (well for some of us anyway) why they have chosen to be neutral in this case. Lighting up No10 just after the massacre was fair enough, lighting up Wembley whilst Israel are murdering innocent kids in their hundreds would not be a great idea IMO.

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Yeah, Ukraine were shelling civilians way before the start of the invasion. But hey how...whatever, right?

[aintforever]

  On 13/10/2023 at 11:03, AlexLaw76 said:

Yeah, Ukraine were shelling civilians way before the start of the invasion. But hey how...whatever, right?

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Write a letter to the FA if you have issues with it then

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 13/10/2023 at 11:03, AlexLaw76 said:

Yeah, Ukraine were shelling civilians way before the start of the invasion. But hey how...whatever, right?

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Then there's the atrocities in Qatar that the FA willingly supported allowing our teams to play in the World Cup.

It seems the FA is only interested in virtue signalling when there are shillings coming their way....

[skintsaint]

  On 13/10/2023 at 11:29, Weston Super Saint said:

Then there's the atrocities in Qatar that the FA willingly supported allowing our teams to play in the World Cup.

It seems the FA is only interested in virtue signalling when there are shillings coming their way....

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Think it highlights the reason why sports should never get involved in politics.

[Lord Duckhunter]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:36, egg said:

 

Let's see how this pans out, but this isn't about crushing Hamas. Sure, Hamas brought a response upon itself and the Palestinians, but what's happening and will happen is beyond the pale. 

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I did say that I can’t speak for the military or millions of Israeli people. However, in 2 days I probably spoke to more Israelis about his than most people have in their lifetime. There was absolutely no desire for their Government to do anything other than crush Hamas. It was early days and the full horror of what happened hadn’t really become apparent, but I was struck by the lack of real hatred towards the Palestinian people as a whole. It was solely towards Hamas . I heard worse about The Irish when the IRA were blowing up our cities. Young people in particular were not war mongers, and there was a genuine sadness about what is going to happen. There are clearly hardliners that will take a different approach & those people are in positions of power, but there definitely wasn’t a desire for blood thirsty revenge amongst the general population I met. Whilst it won’t stop The Government in the short term, I don’t think there will be the pressure for this to go on and on, and they will get a bit of wiggle room when they eventually have to “normalise” the situation. 

 

[egg]

  On 13/10/2023 at 11:48, Lord Duckhunter said:

I did say that I can’t speak for the military or millions of Israeli people. However, in 2 days I probably spoke to more Israelis about his than most people have in their lifetime. There was absolutely no desire for their Government to do anything other than crush Hamas. It was early days and the full horror of what happened hadn’t really become apparent, but I was struck by the lack of real hatred towards the Palestinian people as a whole. It was solely towards Hamas . I heard worse about The Irish when the IRA were blowing up our cities. Young people in particular were not war mongers, and there was a genuine sadness about what is going to happen. There are clearly hardliners that will take a different approach & those people are in positions of power, but there definitely wasn’t a desire for blood thirsty revenge amongst the general population I met. Whilst it won’t stop The Government in the short term, I don’t think there will be the pressure for this to go on and on, and they will get a bit of wiggle room when they eventually have to “normalise” the situation. 

 

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If the people you spoke with wanted to see Gaza eradicated I can't imagine that they would tell a foreign traveller. Regardless, Netanyahu has said in the past week that he'll turn Gaza to rubble, not that you'll have seen msm report that. The Israeli government have form for doing what they want, not necessarily their people. Indeed, their leaders have previous for doing what they want, regardless of the government or public opinion - look at what Sharon did to the Bedouin people and it's land in Sinai. 

It's also worth remembering what Israel's defence minister said about Lebanon and Hezbollah recently. The quote is below - substitute Hamas for Hezbollah and Gaza for Lebanon and it's chillingly close to what we're seeing, and will doubtless see over coming days and weeks. 

“Do not make a mistake. We do not want a war. But we are prepared to protect our civilians, our soldiers and our sovereignty", "You (Lebanon / Hezbollah) have made mistakes in the past, you have paid very heavy prices. If … an escalation or conflict develops here, we will return Lebanon to the Stone Age.”, Gallant went on to say that Israel would not hesitate to use its power to “erode every inch of Hezbollah and Lebanon if we have to”.

That's the reality of the Israeli governments mind set, right there. 

 

 

Edited 13 October, 2023 by egg

[badgerx16]

  On 13/10/2023 at 07:42, whelk said:

Sunshine is so much more pleasant than cunt, thanks.

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  On 13/10/2023 at 10:52, whelk said:

I’m in the usual suspects now hah. Those that think you are a soppy old fool who states the obvious whilst thinking he is the only righteous one? Yeah count me in.  Endless guff and so obvious you dont grasp the complexity of the situation. War bad. Thick cunt

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What happened to sunshine ?

[egg]

  On 13/10/2023 at 12:28, badgerx16 said:

 

What happened to sunshine ?

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"Thick sunshine" doesn't have a great ring to it to be fair. Saying nothing probably more sensible though. 

On a general point, it's sad to see this thread, on such a difficult and sensitive subject, descend into the usual name calling and childish bollox. Most of the posters seem like intelligent people and you'd like to think they could focus on the issues rather than the people actually trying to discuss the issues. 

[buctootim]

  On 13/10/2023 at 11:03, AlexLaw76 said:

Yeah, Ukraine were shelling civilians way before the start of the invasion. But hey how...whatever, right?

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How do you know that? 

[Turkish]

  On 13/10/2023 at 12:38, egg said:

"Thick sunshine" doesn't have a great ring to it to be fair. Saying nothing probably more sensible though. 

On a general point, it's sad to see this thread, on such a difficult and sensitive subject, descend into the usual name calling and childish bollox. Most of the posters seem like intelligent people and you'd like to think they could focus on the issues rather than the people actually trying to discuss the issues. 

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interesting that Sog "liked" when he threw the first stone, saying Whelk was getting like me, presumably as an insult and then started rambling. It was all going well until a certain few posters waded in with their myopic views on everything and inability to discuss any subject without getting pious.

[Weston Super Saint]

 

  On 13/10/2023 at 12:38, egg said:

On a general point, it's sad to see this thread, on such a difficult and sensitive subject, descend into the usual name calling and childish bollox.

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Indeed.

Where's @Tamesaint when he's needed to point out the needless 'digs' from posters and grass them up to the mods?

  On 13/10/2023 at 10:30, sadoldgit said:

I thought you were smarter than that but you seem to have descended to the level of the usual suspects in this thread.

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