The Ashes 2023

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, wadesmith said:

I’m probably speaking as a veteran (possibly like yourself) who’s watched about 20 Ashes series..& we haven’t won many 😊 I think the last 14 months have seen some of the most incredible cricket I’ve seen for years (the nineties seems a slow motion car crash)  Im sensing you don’t like Bazball...I’m willing to persevere for the time being. Ultimately I don’t see us beating Australia whatever we do this year. It’s hard to beat the world champions with a dodgy wicketkeeper, no spinner & a crocked captain. You trying to ascend Everest wearing Crocs!

My memory goes back to Raymond Illingworth captaining us, someone who was a genuinely innovative captain. There’s no doubt in my mind that the first day declaration was unnecessary, counter productive and ultimately cost us the game. You’re on about the 90’s but Aus then were probably the greatest test team ever. If we tried to play Baz Ball against them, the tests would have been over in two and a half days. You can be positive, innovative and throw caution to the wind. But there’s a time and place. The Aussies dig in when it’s needed, play conventional cricket, even blokes like Botham & KP did that when required. Blokes getting in & then chucking their wickets away is criminal, to then have their team mates & leadership team pat them in the head and not bollock them is unforgivable imo. It’s not the Harlem fucking globetrotters, it’s serious sport. 
 

The proof’s in the pudding and after a handful of days we’ve already pissed the ashes away. 

Edited 1 July, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[whelk]

FFS Bairstow

[badgerx16]

Bairstow's error, not paying attention. The Aussies are perfectly entitled to appeal, can't blame them and 2 umpires gave it - onfield and review. The same people raging about this decision were perfectly happy last night when Starc's catch was over-ruled by the same umpires.

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Bairstow's error, not paying attention. The Aussies are perfectly entitled to appeal, can't blame them and 2 umpires gave it - onfield and review. The same people raging about this decision were perfectly happy last night when Starc's catch was over-ruled by the same umpires.

It is a spirit thing not the technicality

[HedgeEnder]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

It is a spirit thing not the technicality

Exactly

[badgerx16]

12 minutes ago, whelk said:

It is a spirit thing not the technicality

This is The Ashes. Spirit is fine but winning, within the Laws, is the prime purpose. It's not as if Carey was trying to con the umpires like a Premier League centre forward tripping over his own feet in the penalty area. Bairstow should have turned to watch Carey and waited for the umpire to call "dead ball".

[bpsaint]

What a match this is though, everyone back to hating the Aussies, The usually respectful lords crowd on their backs, and Ben Stokes playing every bit the captains role dragging us back into it.

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

46 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

This is The Ashes. Spirit is fine but winning, within the Laws, is the prime purpose. It's not as if Carey was trying to con the umpires like a Premier League centre forward tripping over his own feet in the penalty area. Bairstow should have turned to watch Carey and waited for the umpire to call "dead ball".

Boooo

[whelk]

52 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

This is The Ashes. Spirit is fine but winning, within the Laws, is the prime purpose. It's not as if Carey was trying to con the umpires like a Premier League centre forward tripping over his own feet in the penalty area. Bairstow should have turned to watch Carey and waited for the umpire to call "dead ball".

 

[badgerx16]

If Bairstow had run Steve Smith out in the same way. I assume you would expect Stokes to withdraw the appeal.

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

26 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

If Bairstow had run Steve Smith out in the same way. I assume you would expect Stokes to withdraw the appeal.

Yes absolutely 

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

7 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

This is The Ashes. Spirit is fine but winning, within the Laws, is the prime purpose. It's not as if Carey was trying to con the umpires like a Premier League centre forward tripping over his own feet in the penalty area. Bairstow should have turned to watch Carey and waited for the umpire to call "dead ball".

I disagree. Bairstow understandably assumed that even the Aussies would not stoop that low and as for the umpires one was unpinning the bowlers hat and the other was walking to the other end - they were certainly acting as if it the over was over.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

6 hours ago, Golac's Cunning Stunts said:

Yes absolutely 

I personally would have been embarrassed if we had done that. I would have disowned myself from the team.

[wadesmith]

16 minutes ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

I personally would have been embarrassed if we had done that. I would have disowned myself from the team.

In practice I don’t disagree with you. In reality I was taught at 10 if your at the non striking end watch the bowlers hand & don’t leave your crease until the balls in flight. If your facing, don’t leave you’re crease until the balls back in the bowlers hand. We can argue about the spirit of cricket until the cows come home, but if Bairstow had followed these very simple fundamentals , then we aren’t having this conversation. I’m pretty angry with him & I wouldn’t mind betting England’s management is too. I fully understand why people are upset, but I think Bairstow been sloppy. He’d been leaving his crease all game. I’ll tell you now he won’t do it again.

[badgerx16]

46 minutes ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

I disagree. Bairstow understandably assumed that even the Aussies would not stoop that low and as for the umpires one was unpinning the bowlers hat and the other was walking to the other end - they were certainly acting as if it the over was over.

If the umpires on the field had ruled the over was 'over' they would not have permitted the appeal on the grounds that the ball was dead. They were the people responsible for asking for the third umpire's review.

It might have been against the 'spirit' of the game but it was well within the Laws.

Edited 2 July, 2023 by badgerx16

[Kingsland Codger]

Whilst being disappointed by the latest example of Australian bad sportsmanship, let us remember M S Dhoni, Daniel Vittori, Adam Gilchrist and Gundappa Vishwanath (to name but four) who have behaved as one would hope to behave oneself.

[Saint in Paradise]

The Ashes is a series unlike any other in Cricket, it's total war and a win is the only result that matters.

Sportsmanship (like Putins enemies are) is thrown out the window and J.Bairstow should know this as he

has played with and against Australians for many years and seen their win at all costs attitude. He should,

but didn't, have watched and listened to the umpires. He was out fair and square.

[skintsaint]

7 hours ago, Saint in Paradise said:

have watched and listened to the umpires.

TBF the umpire wasn't even watching and unclipping the hat to give back to the bowler.

[Toadhall Saint]

1 hour ago, skintsaint said:

TBF the umpire wasn't even watching and unclipping the hat to give back to the bowler.

Which would suggest even the umpire “thought” it was end of the over.

[Dman]

18 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

If Bairstow had run Steve Smith out in the same way. I assume you would expect Stokes to withdraw the appeal.

The difference is, he wouldn't have. 

4 players aside, this is the same Aus side who used sandpaper to doctor the ball - the same bowling unit and the same 'senior players'. 

They're a side that will win at all costs, breaking / bending the rules and going against any spirit the game has. 

In football terms, this is the same as scoring a goal rather than kicking it back to the keeper when the opposition kicks the ball out for one of your injured players. 

[Dman]

Just now, Toadhall Saint said:

Which would suggest even the umpire “thought” it was end of the over.

The sensible thing for the umpire to have done would have been to claim he'd called over. It would have removed all controversy. 

[badgerx16]

18 minutes ago, Dman said:

The difference is, he wouldn't have. 

4 players aside, this is the same Aus side who used sandpaper to doctor the ball - the same bowling unit and the same 'senior players'. 

They're a side that will win at all costs, breaking / bending the rules and going against any spirit the game has. 

In football terms, this is the same as scoring a goal rather than kicking it back to the keeper when the opposition kicks the ball out for one of your injured players. 

Using sandpaper to doctor the ball is only one slight step beyond Mike Atherton having sand in his pockets, or English bowlers with vaseline in their eyebrows. All of which is not only against the "spirit" of the game but the Laws.

What happened yesterday may have been unsporting but was entirely legal. The easy way to defuse it would have been for the umpire at the bowler's end to have refused the appeal as the ball was dead. Once he did not Bairstow was out.

Set's Headingly up nicely though.

[Window Cleaner]

19 minutes ago, Dman said:

The sensible thing for the umpire to have done would have been to claim he'd called over. It would have removed all controversy. 

But he didn't and I presume the TV umpire would know that....modern technology and all that. anyway this is the Ashes, win at all costs and by whatever means you can, it's endemic in the history of the series. 

[Dman]

10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Using sandpaper to doctor the ball is only one slight step beyond Mike Atherton having sand in his pockets, or English bowlers with vaseline in their eyebrows. All of which is not only against the "spirit" of the game but the Laws.

What happened yesterday may have been unsporting but was entirely legal. The easy way to defuse it would have been for the umpire at the bowler's end to have refused the appeal as the ball was dead. Once he did not Bairstow was out.

Set's Headingly up nicely though.

Has anyone actually disputed this? Everyone knows he's out and that from the 3rd umpire was the correct decision. I've not seen a single person claim that to not be the case. 

The reaction of the long room say's it all. That doesn't happen. That's how bad it was. 

Fantastic that the next test starts so soon! It gives fans / players little to no time to clam down. I genuinely hope one of the Aussies gets lumped by a fan. Preferably that little rat Warner.  

[Dman]

14 minutes ago, Window Cleaner said:

But he didn't and I presume the TV umpire would know that....modern technology and all that. anyway this is the Ashes, win at all costs and by whatever means you can, it's endemic in the history of the series. 

I'm not too sure what the rules stipulate. But i'm guessing the umpire has the ability to determine when the ball is dead. 

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, Dman said:

I'm not too sure what the rules stipulate. But i'm guessing the umpire has the ability to determine when the ball is dead. 

https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/dead-ball

[Window Cleaner]

4 minutes ago, Dman said:

I'm not too sure what the rules stipulate. But i'm guessing the umpire has the ability to determine when the ball is dead. 

But they called for a review instead, thus not confirming dead ball or end of over.

There is a classic old tale of some ancient umpire talking to some ancient player during and interval about an possible lbw off the last ball before the interval. So at the restart the skipper calls Howzat and the umpire puts up the digit. How true this tale is , I've no idea but it used to do the rounds on TMS and the like.

[whelk]

20 minutes ago, Dman said:

 I genuinely hope one of the Aussies gets lumped by a fan.

To restore your faith in the spirit of the game?

[Dman]

8 minutes ago, whelk said:

To restore your faith in the spirit of the game?

Entertainment purposes only. Seeing the old boys getting stuck into them was fantastic! 

[Hatch]

If Carey had hesitated and waited for Bairstow to move out then I would have been fuming,  but as he didn;t and threw the ball back in one movement after catching it, i think this was fair play and quite smart.

I'm all for Aussie bashing, but in this instance I can't.

[Dman]

8 minutes ago, Hatch said:

If Carey had hesitated and waited for Bairstow to move out then I would have been fuming,  but as he didn;t and threw the ball back in one movement after catching it, i think this was fair play and quite smart.

I'm all for Aussie bashing, but in this instance I can't.

Seen this has been said a lot, but I don't see how it makes any difference. Bairstow was not batting outside of his crease. He was not trying to sneak a run. He marked his guard, which is an unofficial sign of 'the balls dead to me, i'm not running'. At no point was Bairstow trying to gain an advantage. Everyone in the stadium, including the umpires, thought the ball was dead.  

Cummings should have removed the appeal and said next time you won't be so lucky. 

Some of the shite being spouted to try and defend the Aussies (mostly from themselves) is shameful. They had a chance to say, "yeah maybe we got it wrong" and everyone can move on, but they're doubling down. 

I've even seen their coach try and claim its the same as a batsman charging down the wicket at Lyon.

It'll be interesting to see where we go from here though. Do we mankad or something of the ilk if we get the opportunity? I don't think we can after the song and dance we've (rightly imo) made about the spirit of the game. 

Although that being said, I do think a mankad is very very different as the batman is trying to gain an advantage. 

[StDunko]

If the opportunity presents itself, I think we should mankad one of their players in the next game, appeal, then withdraw the appeal, just to demonstrate what the Aussies should have done.  But as discussed above even that is not the same, as JB was not attempting a run, or trying to gain any advantage, unlike a non-striker backing upa little to early...

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

32 minutes ago, Hatch said:

If Carey had hesitated and waited for Bairstow to move out then I would have been fuming,  but as he didn;t and threw the ball back in one movement after catching it, i think this was fair play and quite smart.

I'm all for Aussie bashing, but in this instance I can't.

But what was he trying to achieve by getting a batsman out who thinks it is the over. You would have expected Cummins to just say just a warning!

[Whitey Grandad]

8 minutes ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

But what was he trying to achieve by getting a batsman out who thinks it is the over. You would have expected Cummins to just say just a warning!

When Carey threw the ball at the stumps Bairstow was in his crease and marking it. Carey’s actions were sly and underhand in every sense. He will always be remembered for this action.

I don’t think that either umpire saw what happened but apparently this doesn’t matter under the Laws of the Game. There shouldn’t need to be Laws to govern such situations but sadly there are always cheats.

“For when the One Great Scorer comes
To mark against your name,
He writes - not that you won or lost -
But HOW you played the Game.“

Grantland Rice

[Lord Duckhunter]

17 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

 

“For when the One Great Scorer comes
To mark against your name,
He writes - not that you won or lost -
But HOW you played the Game.“

Grantland Rice

What a load of old pony.

Spirit of cricket, my arse. As for Broad moaning about it, wasn’t he the bloke that clearly hit the ball & then didn’t walk a few years back? 
 

Leave the game for the umpires to police, not the players. 

 

[Dman]

12 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What a load of old pony.

Spirit of cricket, my arse. As for Broad moaning about it, wasn’t he the bloke that clearly hit the ball & then didn’t walk a few years back? 
 

Leave the game for the umpires to police, not the players. 

 

Again, not remotely the same circumstances. 

[wadesmith]

My own view is that Bairstow was incredibly sloppy got what he deserved & actually seemed symptomatic of England’s pretty laid back approach to  this series, which a few commentators have touched on.

My biggest concern is that it’s probably in England’s interest to keep this story running as it masks the fact, we won the toss in cloudy conditions, put them in & bowled like drains. We were them 181-1, probably there biggest day 5 wicket taking threat limped out of the series, & we proceed to bat like morons.

Hopefully this is the kick up the arse they so clearly needed.

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

Everyone in the stadium, including the umpires, thought the ball was dead.  
 

Obviously not. If they did the appeal would have been refused.

[Dman]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

Obviously not. If they did the appeal would have been refused.

watch the video footage - neither umpire we're looking and we're making their way to start the next over.

[badgerx16]

14 minutes ago, Dman said:

watch the video footage - neither umpire we're looking and we're making their way to start the next over.

If it had been called 'over' the appeal would be void as it would be dead ball. The umpires are totally responsible for the situation if they have cocked up.

[badgerx16]

Under Law 41.10.1 the batter must be ready to receive when the bowler is at the start of his run up. Perhaps England's response at Headingly should be for the bowlers not to wait if Smith does his between delivery walkabout routine.

( Maybe after one warning - to keep it in the 'spirit' ).

Edited 3 July, 2023 by badgerx16

[Toadhall Saint]

Our response at Headingly should be Mark Wood full pace at the armpit.

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What a load of old pony.

Spirit of cricket, my arse. As for Broad moaning about it, wasn’t he the bloke that clearly hit the ball & then didn’t walk a few years back? 
 

Leave the game for the umpires to police, not the players. 

 

You never have understood the meaning of the word 'sport'. I bet you even park in disabled spaces. 

[badgerx16]

25 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You never have understood the meaning of the word 'sport'. I bet you even park in disabled spaces. 

Do you think the Australians see The Ashes as sport, in the sense you mean ?

[wadesmith]

The Spirit of Cricket should probably be put to bed. If you Mankad someone it’s seen as against the ‘Spirit Of Cricket’..but what about the batsmen who was trying to steal a few yards by not staying in his crease (which he or she is free to do by the way..but the bowler is also free to whip the bails off)

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you think the Australians see The Ashes as sport, in the sense you mean ?

No, not at all. But they are not gentlemen.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No, not at all. But they are not gentlemen.

I suspect as Players they have a huge win bonuis lined up for the series, which probably motivates them.

Edited 3 July, 2023 by badgerx16

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You never have understood the meaning of the word 'sport'. 

You clearly don’t. You probably think the Harlem Globetrotters are basketballs greatest side & what about those Corinthian Casuals, fine bunch of chaps.
 

If you want to be entertained go to the friggin ballet, cinema, circus, whatever floats your boat.Top class sport is about winning, fuck all else and because there’s too many noddies in this country with your attitude, we’re not very good at it. 
 

There’s only one bloke to blame for JB’s dismissal, himself. The fact the dressing room doesn’t seem to accept that is systematic of our series so far. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You clearly don’t. You probably think the Harlem Globetrotters are basketballs greatest side & what about those Corinthian Casuals, fine bunch of chaps.
 

If you want to be entertained go to the friggin ballet, cinema, circus, whatever floats your boat.Top class sport is about winning, fuck all else and because there’s too many noddies in this country with your attitude, we’re not very good at it. 
 

There’s only one bloke to blame for JB’s dismissal, himself. The fact the dressing room doesn’t seem to accept that is systematic of our series so far. 

Sport has nothing to do with winning. 
 

Time you grew up.

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Sport has nothing to do with winning.

Well, this is a forum for Southampton fans, so....Duh !.

Edited 3 July, 2023 by badgerx16