Russell Martin

[Charlie Wayman]

16 hours ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

The Athletic just now reporting it's happening.

I hope this is a wind-up but if not then b*llocks to Semmens and Anderson and anybody else who had a finger in this particular pie. That's me done and dusted with your whole bloody excuse for a football club.

Still that's one thing to strike off my "to do" list. 

Great start to uniting the fanbase. Typical Saints whoever happens to be running the show. 

FFS

 

[Smirking_Saint]

9 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

But it isn’t “playing out from the back”. It’s playing around at the back and getting nowhere.

Well yeah but thats not what you were saying

I don’t mind possession systems, I prefer high pressing systems although they’re harder to coach to a degree.. but yes, possession for possessions sake is a bit wasted you have to have a threat

[Harry_SFC]

56 minutes ago, Turkish said:

The get it fooooooward gang are going to be very upset 

I am surrounded by them at St Mary's. "Just get the bloody thing forward" then we smash it up the pitch and give it straight back to the opposition almost every time. 

Edited 20 May, 2023 by Harry_SFC

[Give it to Ron]

11 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

I hope this is a wind-up but if not then b*llocks to Semmens and Anderson and anybody else who had a finger in this particular pie. That's me done and dusted with your whole bloody excuse for a football club.

Still that's one thing to strike off my "to do" list. 

Great start to uniting the fanbase. Typical Saints whoever happens to be running the show. 

FFS

 

Off to The Emirates? What has England best fast bowler  to do with Saints though?

Edited 20 May, 2023 by Give it to Ron

[Holmes_and_Watson]

I'm in the conservative camp of preferring a manager who has seen it and done it. Not only at the level we're at, but at the level above. Someone who has a working knowledge of success at a level we can aspire to. While we may not be capable quite teaching those heights, we will have a solid groundwork in place to stretch for those standards.

I'm naturally a little down, if the manager hasn't been a consistent success. But that's a passing thing. There are so many different circumstances, that it's simply not going to work out everywhere. Having some success/ progress at a good level is important.

Strachan is a good benchmark. I wasn't gutted when he was hired, but was disappointed. He's just taken Coventry down. But he'd made progress with them the season before, and I quite liked their approach. Strachan had also worked with numerous top managers and had been a successful player at those clubs, in Europe and internationally.

Martin played at an excellent level (if not at the top), and has been an international. He's had a good managerial career so far too. Norwich were abject to watch when he played and capitulated regularly in the Premier League. The soundbites I heard from him during one interview of that were cringe worthy. But it would be incredibly unfair to judge an incoming manager on him as a player, and be was the one to sick his head over the trench for the interview.

What's more important is that I don't think he's had the experience at the level of club we need to get to, both to have the ruthless winning mentality to get up and stay up.

That's not to say we can't be successful under him. Just that there are some extra hurdles.

Handily, Rasmus has given us 2 recent managers I've been more disappointed with. And I've the memory of having my Strachan disappointment turned to delight. I can only hope the standards Martin knows to set show the squad what's required.

 

[Christophenburg]

Whilst I agree it's not the most exciting appointment we simply don't know how it's going to pan out. In 2019 Brighton appointment a championship manager who had finished 10th with Swansea in the previous season and look how that panned out for them. Rather then having a massive wobbly, lets see what Martin can do for us

[Harry_SFC]

30 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Why do you insult our paying supporters and customers by calling them idiots? It’s this style of play that is idiotic. Just shuffling the ball about without purpose or intent.

Do you think Man City, Brighton etc lack purpose or intent? 

Edited 20 May, 2023 by Harry_SFC

[beatlesaint]

I'm not sure what people expect. We are a Championship club now, the net we cast is somewhat narrower.

I would rather give this guy a chance than appoint someone from abroad who has no clue what the Championship is all about. Martin has mananged there, he knows most of the opposition and he knows the players.  Our main task is getting back into the Prem. He may or may not be the man to lead us IF we get back there but he might be just what we need TO get there.

I see only 3 teams scored more than Swansea last season, so the possession game cant be like our current version of side, side, side, back, side, back etc etc. At the same time only 4 teams conceded more, and three of those went down. So, it aint boring thats for sure, and it reminds me of old Saints teams, let a fair few in but always have the chance to score more than we concede.

After the last couple/three years would that really be such a bad thing ?

[malcolm waldron]

I'm cautiously optimistic about this - given where we are at the moment and the rumours coming out in the last week about backroom disharmony and multiple departures.  Odd for people to say 'that's it now, I'm finished' or 'this is an absolute joke' without then providing sensible names (who would join us) who aren't a 'joke' to them.

Three non-negotiables for me though:

1. Does he bite his nails so badly he has to cover them in plasters during a game?
2. Does he refer to the team as 'they' after a loss and 'we' after a (rare) win?
3. Does he say "with the greatest respect' before being completely disrespectful? 

Sorry - and one more - does he wear Stone Island....?

[SNSUN]

Well he wouldn't be my choice but I'll get behind him in blind hope. The only thing I will say about it is that we needed the new manager in quick and we will have done that. That means transfer targets can be sought quickly and the style can be implemented longer. I still think had we appointed Jones last summer he may have been slightly more successful as he'd have brought players in suiting his system and had longer to coach his style. (Probably would have still gone down though and it seems Martin's system is more attractive than Jones'.)

I liked the idea of Viera though so I'm disappointed there but sadly we fans don't get a say in the running of the club. I doubt the Martin appointment is going to unite the fanbase though which is what we need right now.

[Fabrice29]

34 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Why do you insult our paying supporters and customers by calling them idiots? It’s this style of play that is idiotic. Just shuffling the ball about without purpose or intent.

 

35 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

All right, if you must. ‘Attempting to play out from the back’

What happens is the players involved get closed down and end up panicking and passing the ball between themselves. Sometimes they get caught out and it leads to a goal opportunity for the other side. Whatever, they make several passes and end up no further upfield.  Boring to watch and as far away from the other team’s goal as possible.

 

49 minutes ago, egg said:

Is passing around in our own half huffing and puffing for an opening pleasing on the eye? Watch that video of his team goal with the 50 ish passes. The team nearly lost the ball on occasions and had no idea how to break them down until the last pass for goal. If the goal didn't come at the end of it, it would have just been 3 mins of turgid keep ball. 

 

1 hour ago, Dman said:

Opposite in terms of style but as an appointment I’d argue very similar in terms of risk and disappointment from the fan base. 
 

The idiots at St Mary’s are going to hate his “entertaining style”. Passing it around the back with no purpose and taking unneeded risks in our half. 

Just love the idea that the fourth highest scorers in the league had no purpose, were boring and disappointed the fans and was turgid and rarely got out their own half.

[Lighthouse]

Any system, played badly, is going to look sh*t. Ralph had times when he got the press badly wrong, Jones was basically the antithesis of possession football and got nowhere. Puel-style possession football without penetration may be frustrating to watch but it’s no worse than lumping it forward straight to an imposition keeper.

A lot of people seem to be living a level above where we really are. When Ralph got sacked it was, “what about Poch, Tuchel, Potter or Emery,” now people are talking about Rogers, Potter and others. Whoever we appoint, I think there will be a lot of disappointed faces.

[tisspahars]

21 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

I hope this is a wind-up but if not then b*llocks to Semmens and Anderson and anybody else who had a finger in this particular pie. That's me done and dusted with your whole bloody excuse for a football club.

Still that's one thing to strike off my "to do" list. 

Great start to uniting the fanbase. Typical Saints whoever happens to be running the show. 

FFS

NEW MARKET: Will CW still be posting throughout the Summer transfer window, all the pre-season friendlies and every game next season?

1/66 Yes

66/1 No.

 

 

[Fan The Flames]

Football clubs have always looked to appoint up and coming managers, so calling this choice 'trying to be clever and hip' isn't right.

David Jones 41 from Stockport

Ian Branfoot 44 from Reading

Lawrie McMenemy 37 from Grimsby

Criticise it but find better reasons.

[Smirking_Saint]

1 hour ago, Yorkshire Saint said:

Thankyou for sharing.

3 wins in 21 ... kamikaze defending...bat crazy interviews...what could go wrong 🤔 

Thats a very pessimistic view of the interview as a whole

I’m warming to RM actually, if he is backed properly it could be a good fit for us especially in the direction we want to take

[Give it to Ron]

8 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

 

 

 

Just love the idea that the fourth highest scorers in the league had no purpose, were boring and disappointed the fans and was turgid and rarely got out their own half.

I’m confused too how has Piroe scored 41 goals in 2 seasons ?

[StrangelyBrown]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Football clubs have always looked to appoint up and coming managers, so calling this choice 'trying to be clever and hip' isn't right.

David Jones 41 from Stockport

Ian Branfoot 44 from Reading

Lawrie McMenemy 37 from Grimsby

Criticise it but find better reasons.

David Jones - promoted Stockport, Ian branfoot - promoted reading, lawrie - won the fourth division with Grimsby

Russell Martin - achieved the square root of fuck all

Not sure what point you are making?

[Nordic Saint]

15 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

Thats a very pessimistic view of the interview as a whole

I’m warming to RM actually, if he is backed properly it could be a good fit for us especially in the direction we want to take

If that is downwards, yes. The average league position of Russell Martin's teams in his managerial career in League One and the Championship is 14th and no team of his has ever got past the 3rd round of the FA Cup, although his MK Dons team did win a penalty shootout after a 0-0 draw with Eastleigh in the 1st round.  His appointment would signal just how low the club's ambitions are now. 

Edited 20 May, 2023 by Nordic Saint

[egg]

12 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

 

 

 

Just love the idea that the fourth highest scorers in the league had no purpose, were boring and disappointed the fans and was turgid and rarely got out their own half.

And conceded as many as they scored... that's not my way of wanting my team to entertain me. 

[Harry_SFC]

15 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

 

 

 

Just love the idea that the fourth highest scorers in the league had no purpose, were boring and disappointed the fans and was turgid and rarely got out their own half.

Exactly. It's not just as simplistic as this is a style and that's that though. 

You need confidence, ability on and off the ball to make space, tactical awareness, vision. Most importantly you need to be coached correctly.

Looking at that, I'd say last season we struggled in every department.

There was no confidence to move the ball forward, lack of vision to see the right passes, a lack of decent movement off the ball. A lot of that is down to the quality of coaching.

Hopefully with a better manager, some lower quality opposition and some fresh faces, it won't be as bad as some of you think.

Edited 20 May, 2023 by Harry_SFC

[saint1977]

Hard to know what to make of this appointment. Hasn’t really either failed or succeeded as a manager in quite a small sample size so far. Remember him as a senior player at Norwich so perhaps that’s more of a reference point. Less ambitious hire than Adkins was (just got 2 promotions in 3 years and we were a division below Scunny at the time) but not another internal cheapie either (Selles, Gray, Wigley) or an obvious wrong fit (Jones). 

Therefore, I struggle to see how he’s going to attract the standout type of player to finish top two next year even with a better budget than Swansea so I guess SR’s plan next year is to stabilise in mid-table in the first season and look to finish in the play-offs the next year perhaps better the year after with a good wind. It doesn’t scream balls out for promotion next year either. 

Steve Cooper - if available, that would have been ambitious. Martin temperament-wise seems better suited than Jones but Nathan’s record is miles better. 

The parachute money has run out at Swansea but Robins at Coventry and Luton never had any and are miles past this bloke. 

Hard to guess and depends what SR want. Kompany was clearly more ambitious as an appointment for Burnley and more likely to unite the fans and club. I don’t think that’s SR, they just go with their view of the data regardless. 

Edited 20 May, 2023 by saint1977

[beatlesaint]

2 minutes ago, saint1977 said:

The parachute money has run out at Swansea but Robins at Coventry and Luton never had any and are miles past this bloke. 

To be fair Robins has been jobbing around Championship/League 1 football for years. Some places hes done well, others he's been pretty bad. It's fallen right for him this past season or two. As for Luton, well he's taken on the team belonging to the greatest manager in Europe, he couldnt fail 🤣

[Smirking_Saint]

11 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

If that is downwards, yes. The average league position of Russell Martin's teams in his managerial career in League One and the Championship is 14th. His appointment would signal just how low the club's ambitions are now.

Well, he’s made a positive change everywhere he has gone, at some point a side is going to take a gamble on him, back him effectively and it’ll work.. there is no reason that couldn’t be us, we just need to have aligned vision, stability and give him what he needs

Kompany didn’t do anything extraordinary in Belgium, but has done an incredible job at Burnley

From a realistic appointment POV I’m not sure what you would have expected ?

Jaissle ? Good manager with a good pedigree but has zero experience of the english league system or the Championship

Vieira ? A career that has swung 50/50 so far between success and failure always ending with a slump

Potter ? Good manager who I believe is keeping his options open for a prem move so wasn’t available

Carrick/Corberan ? Would actually of been a choice of mine if I was to pick but both are happy at their clubs at the moment

What other options did you have ?

 

Martin wouldn’t of been my first choice, but its not a horrible choice, the bedwetting on here is a bit pathetic tbh

[SotonianWill]

Can’t see how this appointment will get ST renewers in a joyous mood. I’m okay with the appointment but it does stink of rasmus and co not learning their lesson. 

[Whitey Grandad]

45 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

Well yeah but thats not what you were saying

I don’t mind possession systems, I prefer high pressing systems although they’re harder to coach to a degree.. but yes, possession for possessions sake is a bit wasted you have to have a threat

What was I saying? Perhaps I did not make myself clear.

On possession, we agree. The only purpose seems to be to improve some meaningless metric.

[Smirking_Saint]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

What was I saying? Perhaps I did not make myself clear.

On possession, we agree. The only purpose seems to be to improve some meaningless metric.

We sort of agree, Im not sure managers are necessarily looking to increase passing metrics just because they can. A possession based system has enough values, even beyond the old ‘if we have the ball you can’t score’ mantra

It does depend how its utilised of course but you can dissect and pull opposition shape apart and find gaps, like any system, and you’re right, you have to have the right balance of risk but if you get that right the system is perfectly viable and generally successful in a championship campaign

[Smirking_Saint]

6 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

Can’t see how this appointment will get ST renewers in a joyous mood. I’m okay with the appointment but it does stink of rasmus and co not learning their lesson. 

Im not really sure they’re too concerned about ST numbers, they have a plan and backing, a few less bums on seats because they don’t fancy Martin isn’t going to make a huge difference 

[chiknsmack]

4 hours ago, Chewy said:

Hes not a name that will help in the transfer market.

We already have a bloated squad. And there are a handful of Swansea players who are looking to leave and would be great pickups for us. I'm not massively excited by Martin, but if he brings Piroe and one or two others with him I'll be happy.

[hackedoff]

44 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

I am surrounded by them at St Mary's. "Just get the bloody thing forward" then we smash it up the pitch and give it straight back to the opposition almost every time. 

Some teams have been very effective at smashing it up the field to get the results they require. Others good at playing it skilfully forward quickly . Some play the patient ,possession game to be effective.

Southampton FC,this season have been useless at all three.

 

[saint1977]

2 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

Well, he’s made a positive change everywhere he has gone, at some point a side is going to take a gamble on him, back him effectively and it’ll work.. there is no reason that couldn’t be us, we just need to have aligned vision, stability and give him what he needs

Kompany didn’t do anything extraordinary in Belgium, but has done an incredible job at Burnley

From a realistic appointment POV I’m not sure what you would have expected ?

Jaissle ? Good manager with a good pedigree but has zero experience of the english league system or the Championship

Vieira ? A career that has swung 50/50 so far between success and failure always ending with a slump

Potter ? Good manager who I believe is keeping his options open for a prem move so wasn’t available

Carrick/Corberan ? Would actually of been a choice of mine if I was to pick but both are happy at their clubs at the moment

What other options did you have ?

 

Martin wouldn’t of been my first choice, but its not a horrible choice, the bedwetting on here is a bit pathetic tbh

I wouldn’t say it’s bed wetting, it’s just not excitement either, and our fan base has lacked that for 6 poxy years bar RH’s first season and Project Re-start. It’s a neutral appointment, could surprise us but could be the bobbing around mid-table flirting with the play-offs that a lot of us think it will be.

It isn’t Man City and Keegan early 2000s, attack minded, invest in players above that level and blow the league out of the water, Nuno and Wolves or Kompany and Burnley. It seems to be saying that we may be a long-term fixture at that level. Which when 38 out of my 45 years alive the club has been in the top flight doesn’t inspire me.

[SotonianWill]

4 minutes ago, hackedoff said:

Some teams have been very effective at smashing it up the field to get the results they require. Others good at playing it skilfully forward quickly . Some play the patient ,possession game to be effective.

Southampton FC,this season have been useless at all three.

 

Having been to a few championship games this season, i’ve acknowledged possession is good and gives you a clear advantage, however teams that attack with direction and make runs between the channels will exploit most championship defences. 

The only player I see who does this for saints is walcott and he won’t be here.

[Convict Colony]

So this is our 3rd style change for our team in 12 months - ralphball - welshmidget long bll - now 2 first names possession ball

[Saint Billy]

I know very little about this guy so will have to put my trust in Ankersen…………………….oh!!!!!!!!

[Convict Colony]

4 hours ago, Chewy said:

Hes not a name that will help in the transfer market.

Your right but we have another name that helps with that A lot of British Pounds

[Fan The Flames]

35 minutes ago, StrangelyBrown said:

David Jones - promoted Stockport, Ian branfoot - promoted reading, lawrie - won the fourth division with Grimsby

Russell Martin - achieved the square root of fuck all

Not sure what point you are making?

That is exactly my point, call out his record by all means. But calling it clever and hip as though it's some new way of thinking is wrong.

Kieran McKenna and Steven Schumacher have equal records as our three managers I mentioned, but they are also viewed as clever and hip options.

[miserableoldgit]

1 hour ago, Christophenburg said:

Whilst I agree it's not the most exciting appointment we simply don't know how it's going to pan out. In 2019 Brighton appointment a championship manager who had finished 10th with Swansea in the previous season and look how that panned out for them. Rather then having a massive wobbly, lets see what Martin can do for us

Don't be so reasonable! 

[Dman]

1 hour ago, Fabrice29 said:

 

 

 

Just love the idea that the fourth highest scorers in the league had no purpose, were boring and disappointed the fans and was turgid and rarely got out their own half.

Admittedly I’ve seen very little (actually nothing) of Swansea and very limited of Martin, so maybe not in a position to comment, but that goal for MK Dons (50 odd passes), for me was not entertaining at all. A good 40 of them were sidewards and backwards. 
 

Dominating the ball is obviously a good thing, but look at the best teams that do it (City or even Brighton) it’s with a purpose into midfield and driving forward. Time will tell, but from the very limited I’ve seen from YouTube etc. I don’t think Martin plays in this way, time will Tell. 
 

If we do go up, we’ll need to adapt for the PL though, we’ll get picked apart with ease at a higher level. 

Edited 20 May, 2023 by Dman

[CityRanger]

Adkins played possession football in our promotion season, I really don’t understand the hysterics on here.

[Colinjb]

2 minutes ago, CityRanger said:

Adkins played possession football in our promotion season, I really don’t understand the hysterics on here.

Don't remember finding our 30 or so pass goal v Boro in 2011 boring.

[AlexLaw76]

All well and good saying he will get us to play a certain way.  That is only a valid positive point if we get the players to execute it.

So far, from SR, we have seen anything but this

I mean, what if he is lumbered with Big Paul to drop deep and bring others into play....my christ

Edited 20 May, 2023 by AlexLaw76

[64saint]

1 hour ago, Harry_SFC said:

Do you think Man City, Brighton etc lack purpose or intent? 

The difference is Man city and Brighton play the ball around at the back, sideways etc inviting the opposition on to them, then pounce through the gap with defence splitting passes. We knock the ball around sideways and backwards but unfortunately we don't ever seem to manage the final bit that is defence splitting passes 🫤🙄

[suewhistle]

55 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

Im not really sure they’re too concerned about ST numbers, they have a plan and backing, a few less bums on seats because they don’t fancy Martin isn’t going to make a huge difference 

You mean they won't miss Charlie Wayman's "support"?!

[Ex Lion Tamer]

36 minutes ago, CityRanger said:

Adkins played possession football in our promotion season, I really don’t understand the hysterics on here.

Liverpool were playing passing football decades ago so it shouldn't be that alien to people. Yes of course it has to be done well and lead to an end product

[S-Clarke]

The key with possession football is having the substance to go with it, anyone can chalk up stats that show x amount of passes, x amount of touches, x amount of possession etc, but without looking into the detail of those stats it's pretty irrelevant.

If most of those high 'metrics' came from passing the ball between full back and CB then it means zilch, there needs to be substance to it.

Under Adkins we played possession football, but it had a purpose. We moved it quickly and we had a target to build off of up front, allowing Chaplow, Lallana and co to play in and around and make late runs into the box etc. 

This is why stats and stats alone can't be used to make footballing decisions in my opinion, there's more to it - much more.

[Yorkshire Saint]

1 hour ago, Smirking_Saint said:

Thats a very pessimistic view of the interview as a whole

I’m warming to RM actually, if he is backed properly it could be a good fit for us especially in the direction we want to take

Im teasing chief. There were some positives i agree, could be fun.

[BotleySaint]

I'm concerned. He lacks experience which I feel we need in order to rebuild properly. That may work against us during a long season.

He doesn't have the pull factor of Vince Kompany who Burnley managed to attract despite being in Championship. 

Feels like SR trying to be smart and making one of their Nathan Jones style appointments that nobody saw coming and so far all their gambles have made us worse. 

But I actually know very little about him and his style and attributes. Without doubt its another gamble we have to hope it pays off. 

[Hodgey]

Looks like a long term appointment - ie a 3 yr plan to get back up rather than bust a gut to bounce back next year. Martin tends to start slow, and multiply that by the state of our squad / mentality / new style I can see a pretty disasterous start. So after 15 games when we are nowhere near the play offs will the fans / board be patient ?, especially as we’ll probably be leaking more goals than ever.
It must increase our chances of getting Piroe which is a massive bonus given we have to find a striker (he plays a lone striker). And hopefully we’ll see improvement so people will give him a chance. Also needs to be backed with technical ball playing footballers if he wants that style - once KWP/Lavia/JWP leave we have precious few of them left. Ironically I could see Osric liking this style - but that ship has probably sailed. We also need defenders comfortable with the ball - Stephens could fit, maybe even Lyanco. I’ve read his key position is a def mid who can effortlessly fit into centre back - our one of these is off so they absolutely need to nail that.

All in all I’m not feeling the same dread as when Jones or Selles was appointed. There is a clear strategy here that makes sense, it’s definitely more risky short term and I think those expecting us to be a top championship team next year from the off are not going to be happy.

[Saint Gifford]

It will end up being either inspired, or another Ali Dia moment.

What ever the outcome, managers seem to only last a season or two at any club, so we will have to wait and see I guess. 

[BarryVenisonsHair]

I’m quietly confident that he will be a good fit and potentially a long term appointment. I want to see some good football played, not kick and rush and gegenpress etc. be nice to see some good passing movements with possession. 

I’ll probably be proven wrong but thems the breaks. 

[S-Clarke]

19 minutes ago, BotleySaint said:

I'm concerned. He lacks experience which I feel we need in order to rebuild properly. That may work against us during a long season.

He doesn't have the pull factor of Vince Kompany who Burnley managed to attract despite being in Championship. 

Feels like SR trying to be smart and making one of their Nathan Jones style appointments that nobody saw coming and so far all their gambles have made us worse. 

But I actually know very little about him and his style and attributes. Without doubt its another gamble we have to hope it pays off. 

Yeah, this is the element that concerns me the most really. I actually think his teams play ok and he seems to come across really well as a young manager, but he wouldn't have experienced in his career what he is about to experience here. 

It's a totally different kettle of fish managing MK Dons or Swansea with 0 money, to managing a recently relegated football club with lots of players who want out and massive expectation to hit the ground running. This is where I've always felt someone like Viera or Cooper (if they ditch) would have been a much better shout, as they'd have been in similar situations and would have managed similar personalities as well (and in the case of Viera, played at the very top with all sorts of personalities).

We have been losing games every single week for almost 2 years, there is no scenario where this fan base is going to accept a year of inconsistent bollocks/losing games at a lower level. He needs to be a hit from day 1, as harsh as that sounds, as otherwise he'll be onto a loser.