Russell Martin

[Dman]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If they had a trendy algorithm, why would it pick diametrically opposed managers like Jones & Martin. Did this algorithm throw up a front footed aggressive Brentford like outcome, followed by a possession based RussBall.
 

 If so, it’s a bit of a coincidence that we’ve ended up with a bloke who thinks he’s Pep. If Martin was a success I think I know who you’d be putting it down to, Wilcox. We’re a pound shop Man C, yet the bloke we’ve hired from Man C didn’t really want the pound shop Pep. He actually wanted the bloke that’s doing well at another relegated club, amazing isn’t it. Spin worthy of Alister Campbell.  
 

This is what the club said was his role when first appointed “responsibility for all football departments, including the men’s first team”. If Wilcox had said, “fuck me don’t employ that Lego headed chump, he’s a blagger that can’t set a team up defensively “,  do you think he’d be here? 

Because relying on the algorithm (algorithm being a hipster word for spreadsheet), is fundamentally flawed - as shown by the appointments of Jones - Because he had decent stats for defending balls into the box, which was highlighted as an issue (this was confirmed at the time of his appointment or sacking. I can't remember which)

And the appointment of Martin - Because he had good stats for possession. 

I'm not a Wilcox apologiser, I think proof will be in the pudding and I will judge him after a year. I like what he's done in the window to date, but I fully believe that Martin was appointed off the back of 'stats' rather than because Wilcox wanted him - Wilcox man was Enzo, i've no doubt about that. Once Enzo rejected us, we obviously needed to look at alternative targets. 

Wilcox isn't solely void of responsibility, much like you've said, he probably could have highlighted his flaws and opted against it - you'd hope anyway. 

FWIW - I think its Wilcox decision that we've gone down the possession based approach transitioning away from the red bull style.

[Convict Colony]

I know I know usual caveats apply etc etc but Burnley only had 9 PTS after 6 games last season so we are 1 ahead.

Martin did end last season with a 9 game win streak so when he gets it right we he can go on streaks the question is when will he get it right.

Obviously none of us can expect or hope if/when that happens but at some time it will change.

 

 

[notnowcato]

20 minutes ago, Dman said:

Because relying on the algorithm (algorithm being a hipster word for spreadsheet), is fundamentally flawed - as shown by the appointments of Jones - Because he had decent stats for defending balls into the box, which was highlighted as an issue (this was confirmed at the time of his appointment or sacking. I can't remember which)

And the appointment of Martin - Because he had good stats for possession. 

I'm not a Wilcox apologiser, I think proof will be in the pudding and I will judge him after a year. I like what he's done in the window to date, but I fully believe that Martin was appointed off the back of 'stats' rather than because Wilcox wanted him - Wilcox man was Enzo, i've no doubt about that. Once Enzo rejected us, we obviously needed to look at alternative targets. 

Wilcox isn't solely void of responsibility, much like you've said, he probably could have highlighted his flaws and opted against it - you'd hope anyway. 

FWIW - I think its Wilcox decision that we've gone down the possession based approach transitioning away from the red bull style.

You don't need a fucking unkempt beard and a pint of vegan beer in your hand to know what an algorithm is.  Clue: it's not a jeffin' spreadsheet.

And for the love of Christ, the proof isn't in the pudding!!  For all the shit you do write (not all that you write is shit) if you're going to use a bullshit phrase at least use it correctly.

[Saints-1994]

4 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

I know I know usual caveats apply etc etc but Burnley only had 9 PTS after 6 games last season so we are 1 ahead.

Martin did end last season with a 9 game win streak so when he gets it right we he can go on streaks the question is when will he get it right.

Obviously none of us can expect or hope if/when that happens but at some time it will change.

 

 

He also went on a run of 20 games, with 3 wins, before that. He alluded when he first came here he knows that won't be accepted. I care about results, but when you're fighting for autos you need performances alongside it, and other teams to come away from games saying 'not much we can do against that quality'. The mood would be a lot different if we had played like that Wednesday 2nd half in some of our games. So far we've had Plymouth, Norwich and QPR managers saying they should have got 3 points and Ipswich/Sunderland players coming out and saying we're predictable - I can't say I disagree with any of them as they all had better chances than us. We should be seeing signs, like Leicester and Leeds are, that his style is starting to take hold and be understood. We're not getting worse, just being punished now against better teams. Performances point towards midtable.

If by some miracle we really outscore our way back into the Premier League, can you imagine what teams like Brentford, West Ham and Brighton would do to us? Not even the 'top 6'. 

[Turkish]

On 19/09/2023 at 22:21, Monk said:

Similar to NJ, he has this arrogance about him that suggests his playing philosophy is already 'mastered' in his eyes and the players are the ones who need to learn it. There is no evidence of any progress or evolving of his philosophy, given he has 'better players' than he did at Swansea and MK Dons. His philosophy is already 'flawed' with the passing patterns, player starting positions for said patterns (and set pieces) and his pressing set up all incredibly naive. 

Two key patterns you can see teams are using to exploit us is; playing through our unstructured set up in DF/Midfield through our press (teams that play with a '10' will be licking their lips). The second pattern is almost an extension of those teams playing with a 10 or have numerical advantage of CM's, playing reverse passes when attacking the width of our penalty area. We don't operate with a typical DM/4 who sweeps and protects the back four, so when the winger has the ball we defend the 6 yard line a priority for any balls across the goal but completely ignore the checked or delayed runs on the edge of our box. 

 

I'm not a fan and I'm already on the notion that I don't want him here at all. 

Plus I can't stand that he's constantly dressed like a mannequin from Zara or ARNE. 

Oi, most of my work clothes come from Arne!

[Badger]

7 hours ago, Dman said:

 

I really (not really) hate to say it... but I told you so! 

I can't believe how obviously bad this appointment was going to be for us and we still done it anyway. 

You weren't alone in expressing reservations on this one DMan. 

 

On 19/05/2023 at 18:41, Badger said:

Spoke to a Swansea supporter today who said exactly this about Martin. [ ie couldn't organise a defence ] 

General observation was that he was not fussed whether RM stays with them or not, apart from it might give them some stability going into next season. Apart from that , acknowledged 'he plays some pretty football from time to time... but falls apart conceding stupid goals. Said he'd lost count of the number of times the GK playing it out from the back has put them under pressure or they conceded.

I find it incredible that a bloke with a ST at Swansea can see this glaring problem with RM's games, but the football intelligentsia who make up  our 'experts'  can't. 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

You weren't alone in expressing reservations on this one DMan. 

 

I find it incredible that a bloke with a ST at Swansea can see this glaring problem with RM's games, but the football intelligentsia who make up  our 'experts'  can't. 

It's not that they can't see it, it's that Martin accepts it and think it's worth conceding goals in this way if it helps us to play the way he wants us to. He's a slave to his system. 

[Badger]

On 07/09/2023 at 09:29, ErwinK1961 said:

Quite easy to spot the posters who never wanted Martin in the first place.

Perhaps he's just lived up to their expectations.

I had doubts about this appointment, he had less track record than Jones among other things. But I'm not calling for his head (yet), Saints appointed him and are stuck with him. Sacking him we're becoming like Watford. Can't see those responsible admitting another failure either. 

Ridiculous thing is, we might even sack him before the compensation is agreed with Swansea. (How much do we say they owe us?)

[Badger]

On 08/09/2023 at 13:46, once_bitterne said:

Russell Martin would have been great for a Viz character.  The bloke who cannot avoid massively over-complicating everything.

Ep 1.  How he has to run around the house 15 times and juggle 3 apples for 5 minutes before he can turn the kettle on.

I like your thinking, it has potential.

Would have to be a wind powered kettle though. 

[Weston Super Saint]

19 minutes ago, Badger said:

Perhaps he's just lived up to their expectations.

I had doubts about this appointment, he had less track record than Jones among other things. But I'm not calling for his head (yet), Saints appointed him and are stuck with him. Sacking him we're becoming like Watford. Can't see those responsible admitting another failure either. 

Ridiculous thing is, we might even sack him before the compensation is agreed with Swansea. (How much do we say they owe us?)

To be fair, now I can see why we wanted to haggle so badly!

Some on here were crying out for us to just pay the damn money and get him in!!

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, Saints-1994 said:

If by some miracle we really outscore our way back into the Premier League, can you imagine what teams like Brentford, West Ham and Brighton would do to us? Not even the 'top 6'. 

The thing is, we’re now not scoring any goals either. After the Norwich game it felt like ‘OK, this might be a rollercoaster and we’ll concede a lot but we’ll also score for fun, it might at least be a laugh’.

Now - we’ve scored 1 goal in 3 games, and we look absolutely lost going forward. We’re not out scoring anyone playing like we are at the moment. We’re barely creating anything. 

[pimpin4rizeal]

3 hours ago, Micky said:

Because of the manner of the defeats, style of play and tactics that this manager insists on.   We were absolutely hammered in two of the games and then failed to get back into a 1 nil at home!  That would suggest that not only are we woeful at the back, but we are similarly so up top as well. We are heading one way, and one way only...!

All I’m saying is it’s a bit laughable that people are talking like automatic promotion is dead like it’s a fact .. anything could happen at this stage, win our next three games we are right back in it.. we might even sack Rm, also. 

I’m not defending martin or his tactics or performances but it’s super early days 

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

2 hours ago, Convict Colony said:

I know I know usual caveats apply etc etc but Burnley only had 9 PTS after 6 games last season so we are 1 ahead.

Martin did end last season with a 9 game win streak so when he gets it right we he can go on streaks the question is when will he get it right.

Obviously none of us can expect or hope if/when that happens but at some time it will change.

 

 

Of course Burnley only lost 3 all season whereas we've matched that in the last three...our non-stop unbeaten run for the rest of the season needs to start this weekend if we're not going to trump that!

[CB Fry]

3 hours ago, Convict Colony said:

I know I know usual caveats apply etc etc but Burnley only had 9 PTS after 6 games last season so we are 1 ahead.

Martin did end last season with a 9 game win streak so when he gets it right we he can go on streaks the question is when will he get it right.

Obviously none of us can expect or hope if/when that happens but at some time it will change.

 

 

After 7 games Burnley were 3 wins, three draws and 1 defeat. And they were third.

Sheffield United were top.

 

Edited 21 September, 2023 by CB Fry

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

After 7 games Burnley were 3 wins, three draws and 1 defeat. And they were third.

they must have went through so seriously quick "pain" to achieve that

[Convict Colony]

26 minutes ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

Of course Burnley only lost 3 all season whereas we've matched that in the last three...our non-stop unbeaten run for the rest of the season needs to start this weekend if we're not going to trump that!

Half full or half empty

I say half full - weve got our 3 losses out of the way early and can now start our run 🤣

[Convict Colony]

6 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

After 7 games Burnley were 3 wins, three draws and 1 defeat. And they were third.

damn i only thought we'd played 6 games, your right my mistake but as Alfie at the echo said Sheff utd got promoted and lost 11 games.

If I cant be optimistic about my own team whats the point, its not like weve been good and this has come as a shock, we've been crap for ages, infact crap is our average with the occasional outlier seasons when we were good.

Edited 21 September, 2023 by Convict Colony

[woodsaint1]

Average two points a game and we'll probably get automatic. Long way to go, but the longer this shit form persists then it becomes an impossible task

[CB Fry]

39 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

damn i only thought we'd played 6 games, your right my mistake but as Alfie at the echo said Sheff utd got promoted and lost 11 games.

If I cant be optimistic about my own team whats the point, its not like weve been good and this has come as a shock, we've been crap for ages, infact crap is our average with the occasional outlier seasons when we were good.

Yes and I think Fulham was 10 the season before, but if you take the last twenty auto promoted teams it's going to be a single digit average of losses in the season.

To be honest I'd say the goals against tally more telling and more of a concern. We're miles off it.

Everyone can be optimistic, no problem. We win on Saturday and loads will suddenly believe again.

 

 

[Monk]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

Oi, most of my work clothes come from Arne!

Do you know what my friend, I'm not surprised one bit you fashionable devil you. 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Monk said:

Do you know what my friend, I'm not surprised one bit you fashionable devil you. 

Yes I am one of those wankers you see on the train with a shirt/polo, chinos, trainers and lap top in a ruck sack

Edited 21 September, 2023 by Turkish

[Convict Colony]

16 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Yes and I think Fulham was 10 the season before, but if you take the last twenty auto promoted teams it's going to be a single digit average of losses in the season.

To be honest I'd say the goals against tally more telling and more of a concern. We're miles off it.

Everyone can be optimistic, no problem. We win on Saturday and loads will suddenly believe again.

 

 

[Mystic Force]

So in modern football the hipster things is for attackers who specialize in not having the ball and defenders whose prioritize playing the ball.........

[CB Fry]

Personally I have to say I am disappointed that this forum hasn't had at least one brand new contributor who within days of arrival is posting passionate defences of Russell Martin before disappearing never to post again once he's sacked.

Come on Russell's extended family, get on board someone.

[Charlie Wayman]

5 hours ago, Convict Colony said:

I know I know usual caveats apply etc etc but Burnley only had 9 PTS after 6 games last season so we are 1 ahead.

Martin did end last season with a 9 game win streak so when he gets it right we he can go on streaks the question is when will he get it right.

Obviously none of us can expect or hope if/when that happens but at some time it will change.

 

 

I am not sure I want to be there when Martin goes on a streak.

[sledger]

Anyone who thinks this side is getting automatic promotion is seriously deluded.There is just no spine in the team,certain players are just passengers but there selection appears ring fenced and a manager who will not change and accept that he doesnt have the players to play like man city,we are just a rinse and repeat swansea.I pray and hope ross stewart is a goal machine cos we gonna need him.

[Chez]

12 hours ago, Convict Colony said:

damn i only thought we'd played 6 games, your right my mistake but as Alfie at the echo said Sheff utd got promoted and lost 11 games.

If I cant be optimistic about my own team whats the point, its not like weve been good and this has come as a shock, we've been crap for ages, infact crap is our average with the occasional outlier seasons when we were good.

If you want inspiration, Forest lost six and drew one of their first seven games in their 21/22 promotion season. Only a winner take all defeat away at Bournemouth prevented automatic promotion in the end. However, they did sack Houghton after the 7th game!

[Miltonaggro]

13 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Personally I have to say I am disappointed that this forum hasn't had at least one brand new contributor who within days of arrival is posting passionate defences of Russell Martin before disappearing never to post again once he's sacked.

Come on Russell's extended family, get on board someone.

They are not taking a chance in paying the £5 just yet. 

[StrangelyBrown]

Interesting time for Wilcox. It's clear that RM can't set us up to defend so does Wilcox continue to let RM dig his own grave or does he act and bring in someone to support RM with the defensive side?

In Wilcox's shoes I'd do the latter, but I suspect Wilcox will demonstrate his own weakness by letting RM fail.

[rallyboy]

We seem to have spent the last few seasons tapping the ball around in our own half like we're defending a two-goal lead, when it reality we've usually been in desperate need of a goal but have lacked the urgency and quality to create one.

Do we know if there are any plans in the pipeline to do some actual attacking anytime soon, or are we still at the pointless little passing triangles stage, and rejoicing at the possession stats?

On the television I've seen other teams scoring from corners, and some even run from their own half with the ball on what they call a break.

Is it worth looking into either of these ideas?

[Wade Garrett]

3 hours ago, StrangelyBrown said:

Interesting time for Wilcox. It's clear that RM can't set us up to defend so does Wilcox continue to let RM dig his own grave or does he act and bring in someone to support RM with the defensive side?

In Wilcox's shoes I'd do the latter, but I suspect Wilcox will demonstrate his own weakness by letting RM fail.

I think Martin would rather walk (on full pay), than accept a defensive coach.  
You never know, we might play like Holland in the 70s tomorrow and wipe the floor with Boro.  Would go some way to repairing all that fucking scar-tissue.

[Wade Garrett]

1 minute ago, rallyboy said:

We seem to have spent the last few seasons tapping the ball around in our own half like we're defending a two-goal lead, when it reality we've usually been in desperate need of a goal but have lacked the urgency and quality to create one.

Do we know if there are any plans in the pipeline to do some actual attacking anytime soon, or are we still at the pointless little passing triangles stage, and rejoicing at the possession stats?

On the television I've seen other teams scoring from corners, and some even run from their own half with the ball on what they call a break.

Is it worth looking into either of these ideas?

Reading the Echo and Martin’s interview, I think he’s pretty pissed off with how slowly we move the ball.

[verlaine1979]

36 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

We seem to have spent the last few seasons tapping the ball around in our own half like we're defending a two-goal lead, when it reality we've usually been in desperate need of a goal but have lacked the urgency and quality to create one.

Do we know if there are any plans in the pipeline to do some actual attacking anytime soon, or are we still at the pointless little passing triangles stage, and rejoicing at the possession stats?

On the television I've seen other teams scoring from corners, and some even run from their own half with the ball on what they call a break.

Is it worth looking into either of these ideas?

Annoying this is, they're not even passing triangles most of the time. At least with a triangle at some point someone has to pass the ball forward. Most of the time we just seem to pass it back and forth along the same flat plane.

[rallyboy]

35 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Reading the Echo and Martin’s interview, I think he’s pretty pissed off with how slowly we move the ball.

If he's that pissed off perhaps he should have a word with the manager - that's the guy who spends all week with them and sends them out to do that.

[malcolm waldron]

1 hour ago, rallyboy said:

We seem to have spent the last few seasons tapping the ball around in our own half like we're defending a two-goal lead, when it reality we've usually been in desperate need of a goal but have lacked the urgency and quality to create one.

Do we know if there are any plans in the pipeline to do some actual attacking anytime soon, or are we still at the pointless little passing triangles stage, and rejoicing at the possession stats?

On the television I've seen other teams scoring from corners, and some even run from their own half with the ball on what they call a break.

Is it worth looking into either of these ideas?

We had one of those in the first half - I think on Tuesday.  Fairly sure it was what you're calling 'a break' - when Edozie had the ball in our half with wide open space ahead.  I for one was delighted when he promptly stopped, waited and then slowly passed the ball backwards.  Why is this?  Well there was a high percentage chance he'd have lost the ball in the red zone and thus left us disadvantaged in our against the ball transition phase.  The double pivot vs single pivot inverted full backs would then be out of the game leaving the opposition with a clear sight of goal.  Hopefully Edozie won't try the 'break' tactic again in matchday 8....... 

[Crab Lungs]

I think @CB Fry won Russell Martin bingo after that press conference. 
 

yes, scar tissue was mentioned.

[StrangelyBrown]

2 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

I think Martin would rather walk (on full pay), than accept a defensive coach.  
You never know, we might play like Holland in the 70s tomorrow and wipe the floor with Boro.  Would go some way to repairing all that fucking scar-tissue.

The idea of our players trying to play total football as per 70s Holland is utterly hilarious 😂 they can't play in their own positions properly let alone anyone elses 😂😂

[richardc]

23 hours ago, sledger said:

Anyone who thinks this side is getting automatic promotion is seriously deluded.There is just no spine in the team,certain players are just passengers but there selection appears ring fenced and a manager who will not change and accept that he doesnt have the players to play like man city,we are just a rinse and repeat swansea.I pray and hope ross stewart is a goal machine cos we gonna need him.

On current form we need around 112 goals from him this season - no pressure

[OttawaSaint]

We will be bottom half/flirting with relegation if we keep him. 

I didn't want him, preseason worried me, and nothing he has done has changed my opinion.

It's utter folly to play the way he does with the players we have. 

Like a boxer with a glass jaw with his guard down inviting punches....

[Farmer Saint]

On 21/09/2023 at 21:23, CB Fry said:

Personally I have to say I am disappointed that this forum hasn't had at least one brand new contributor who within days of arrival is posting passionate defences of Russell Martin before disappearing never to post again once he's sacked.

Come on Russell's extended family, get on board someone.

The issue is they don't believe he can turn it around either. 

[stknowle]

Despite my misgivings about this bloke when we appointed him this is the first season in years that I was looking forward to, felt we would be competitive in, were likely to win a lot, had a feeling of optimism about, and anticipated might actually be, you know, enjoyable. Obviously this is all principally down to the fact we are playing at a weaker level but whatever the reason that's how I felt as I'm sure did many others. All of that has been expertly dismantled by this muppet inside 7 games.

Edited 23 September, 2023 by stknowle

[Charlie Wayman]

The bloke has lost it! What's that cap all about at the PC? Trying to disguise himself in the hope we don't notice he's still here?

It's become a complete switch off for me, he has nothing remotely interesting to say anymore. 

[The Kraken]

🤣

Angry Chaz is my favourite one of the Wayman posting troup 👍

[Turkish]

6 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

The issue is they don't believe he can turn it around either. 

When they turn up can we send them to the lounge so they’re distracted by this thread and leave the football talk to us lot

 

[AlexLaw76]

Rusty

Last 4 games, 12-2 score line against.

Worst defence in English professional football

Cretin of a manager

[trousers]

He has to go. But the clueless SR will dither as usual...

[Lighthouse]

I quite like him.

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Just fuck off. Starting to hate this prick as much as I hate Nathan Jones. 

[Block41 Saint]

Another abysmal appointment from these fucking shite owners. We're going down to League One under these cunts. 

[Mboto Gorge]

I don’t care if this gets bundled in with the other Martin thread but it needs its own title every time we persist with this utter chump. Wtf was that today?? Thing is, most of us saw a defeat today coming, just totally saints. This clown needs firing asap before we get relegated again! Currently I’d say we are in the worst 3 sides in the league. Incredible achievement