Russell Martin

[Jack]

3 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I dont think using the ball as a hot potato in defence and getting it up to the two smallest strikers in the league (probably) as quickly and as often as possible will stand us in a good stead personally that’s all. I do think any success we have will involve feeding Fernandes and Dibling in areas where they can turn their man and attack space and think we should get better at that. 

Having small and quick strikers is exactly the reason TO get the ball forward quickly, into space. Not 30 passes on the halfway line, allowing opposition to regroup and then maybe a cross into the box won’t cut it, but giving them something to run onto might 

[Toussaint]

2 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I think my point is this would just create a different problem. 

I'd prefer the different problem, i.e. if we are going to gift the ball to the opposition do it much higher up the pitch. 

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Fabrice29 said:

Right, just want to address how I feel on this because a few people have mentioned it in my replies.

Regarding the idea the team is set up to fail and should be asked to play more pragmatically. I think that sounds wonderful on paper but I really don’t think asking defenders who can’t defend to defend more is the answer. I think asking them to pass the ball to each other instead is a better idea in practice although I will happily subscribe to the idea that the manager who keeps picking players who can’t do either probably needs to stop doing that. 

Where in this equation would you place a manager who clearly can't set up us or any of his previous other teams to defend? RM's record in this area is notoriously bad so he is obviously a large part of the problem.

[SaintsBarry74]

Anyone else saw the scolding Lumley got for playing long?

I'm not sure what more can be said about this abomination that is Russball, surely if something isn't working for this long you'd try to change things up? 

[saintant]

53 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I would like to remind people that quite a lot of our squad have relegations on their CV’s and none of them have been under Martin yet. There’s not this wonderful unexplored way of playing out there for this squad. There are clear bits of quality in it, especially in midfield and maybe the GK when fit but the idea that there’s some magic way of playing that means a defence consisting of Stephens, Bednarek, KWP and some lads playing their first full season in the league would suddenly stop making mistakes, especially with its 3rd and 4th choice keepers in goal is one for the birds. Even more so without nullifying the attacking talents of our midfield. 

But I’m sure we’ll find out soon enough.

It's not the mistakes per se it's actually the sheer volume and regularity of them. Maybe you never watch televised football but every commentator and pundit who covers us is pointing out at every one of our games what you seem to be missing or not able to understand. Maybe you're right and the rest of us plus those 'experts' are wrong 🙂

[Fabrice29]

8 minutes ago, Jack said:

Having small and quick strikers is exactly the reason TO get the ball forward quickly, into space. Not 30 passes on the halfway line, allowing opposition to regroup and then maybe a cross into the box won’t cut it, but giving them something to run onto might 

‘Hi Joe, yeh I know you struggled a bit with 5 yard passes on Wednesday but the good news is we’ve got a new tactic. All it involves is you pinging it the length of the pitch into space for our 2 strikers to run on to against their 3 or 4 defenders and don’t mess it up because it’ll just come straight back otherwise’ 

[Fabrice29]

3 minutes ago, saintant said:

It's not the mistakes per se it's actually the sheer volume and regularity of them. Maybe you never watch televised football but every commentator and pundit who covers us is pointing out at every one of our games what you seem to be missing or not able to understand. Maybe you're right and the rest of us plus those 'experts' are wrong 🙂

At no point have I denied that there are mistakes being made ffs 😂

[Fabrice29]

10 minutes ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

Anyone else saw the scolding Lumley got for playing long?

I'm not sure what more can be said about this abomination that is Russball, surely if something isn't working for this long you'd try to change things up? 

Yeah he was playing to the crowd and launching it long when it wasn’t needed, and guess what..it involved giving the ball away and if Felix could shoot it would have led to a goal. 

Edited 5 December, 2024 by Fabrice29

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

At no point have I denied that there are mistakes being made ffs 😂

At no point have I suggested that you have denied there are mistakes being made - unless you can quote where I said it.

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Yeah he was playing to the crowd and launching it long when it wasn’t needed, and guess what..it involved giving the ball away and if Felix could shoot it would have led to a goal. 

Whereas playing out from the back never involves giving the ball away or conceding chances/goals. Maybe Russell should be happy to let the players mix it up a bit more and make their own on-field judgements - I'm sure that would take some of the pressure off them and lead to better decision making.

[miserableoldgit]

Teams around us changing or considering changing their managers (West Ham the latest)........I wonder if any of them would consider poaching RM? After all, Pep and Co think that he is such a brillant manager. A relegation rival stealing our manager would certainly finish us off.................wouldn't it??

[Toussaint]

3 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Yeah he was playing to the crowd and launching it long when it wasn’t needed, and guess what..it involved giving the ball away and if Felix could shoot it would have led to a goal. 

Which is still preferable to the "actual" open goal he gave away by farting around on the edge of his area. 

[Fabrice29]

4 minutes ago, saintant said:

At no point have I suggested that you have denied there are mistakes being made - unless you can quote where I said it.

Okay, at no point have I denied the sheer number of mistakes being made. 

[Fabrice29]

2 minutes ago, saintant said:

Whereas playing out from the back never involves giving the ball away or conceding chances/goals. Maybe Russell should be happy to let the players mix it up a bit more and make their own on-field judgements - I'm sure that would take some of the pressure off them and lead to better decision making.

This is actually a sensible point, well done but there doesn’t really appear to be revolt against the manager from the players which suggests they are on board with things and just think they need to do it better. Anyway, I’m done now. This is all pointless, like Saints. 

[Toussaint]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

Whereas playing out from the back never involves giving the ball away or conceding chances/goals. Maybe Russell should be happy to let the players mix it up a bit more and make their own on-field judgements - I'm sure that would take some of the pressure off them and lead to better decision making.

I believe that is it in a nutshell, football, like many other businesses is reactive, its not a process. I would suggest that the players have little or no latitude to make on field reactive decisions that would contradict Martin's dogma.   

[East Kent Saint]

3 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I believe that is it in a nutshell, football, like many other businesses is reactive, its not a process. I would suggest that the players have little or no latitude to make on field reactive decisions that would contradict Martin's dogma.   

And if they did they would get subbed off for BBD 😄

[tdmickey3]

25 minutes ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

Anyone else saw the scolding Lumley got for playing long?

I'm not sure what more can be said about this abomination that is Russball, surely if something isn't working for this long you'd try to change things up? 

Yep saw it

[SambaMaverick]

Where has the idea that giving the ball away high up the pitch is somehow a bad thing come from?

Russell doesn't like it because it would require him to have the intelligence to co-ordinate a decent press or actually set some decent pressing traps. It would mean that his teams have to actually be fit, and be hyper-aware of their positioning at all times - who wants that?

At the moment he just wants us to have the ball until the opponent submits to our superiority, and our 11 goals scored (worst in the division) is proof that is going swimmingly.

[Whitey Grandad]

6 hours ago, beatlesaint said:

Biggest issue for me is that he is so arrogant he treats everyone else like they are stupid. Every pundit I have heard this season points out the issues but no, they are wrong, RM is right. 

Then there are the supporters, the fans who travel home and away to watch this Rusbball shite. Its an insult to the intelligence, some of the crap he comes out with are so far removed from what every paying customer can see that its beyond a joke. Take last night with his refusal to call out Stephens, instead preferring to get all misty eyed and have an erection over the bloke while telling us "Jack's been amazing for us" !!! Now if you were to ask 30,000 Saints fans who turn up at St Mary's week in week out - yes or no, has Jack Stephens been amazing for us - what percentage would say yes? 

How the hell local journos like Alfie House and Adam Blackmore can stand there and listen to his repeated drivel whilst keeping a straight face is quite frankly full credit to them !     

The sad thing about it all is that I think he really believes in his philosophy. I don't know of any commentator or pundit who thinks that it will ever work with the tools that we have available to us.

[Whitey Grandad]

4 hours ago, OldNick said:

I read once George Best at first was right footed but practiced so hard with his left that became his dominant foot. I agree players should have to use bth feet. The Aribo chance actually was flagged but the ref let the game on without stopping. 

George Best once had a bet that he could go through an entire game using only his left foot. He succeeded and even scored a goal with it.

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

I’ve no idea what you’re trying to say here tbh. Do you want them to give the ball to the midfield or not? I actually think giving the ball to our midfield is our best option because it’s by far our most impressive part of the team. 

We don't have a midfield presence.  Watching any of our fames you will see that the opposition have more players there than we do. This is not helped by playing five at the back. They have nobody available to play the ball upfield yo.

[coalman]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

We don't have a midfield presence.  Watching any of our fames you will see that the opposition have more players there than we do. This is not helped by playing five at the back. They have nobody available to play the ball upfield yo.

Martin doesn't seem to see the point of defensive central midfielders. All he appears to focus on is ball retention so he'll happily pick Lallana in central midfield and then wonder why we get steamrollered.

[Zorba]

11 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

The sad thing about it all is that I think he really believes in his philosophy. I don't know of any commentator or pundit who thinks that it will ever work with the tools that we have available to us.

But why do those same commentators and pundits still paise him for being brave, sticking to his mantra etc etc. Why do we have much better managers than RM saying how wonderful it is that he insists on playing his way and that we are tough to play against.. just before they do exactly what every manager has done this season and play a high press and wait for us to drop a bollock.

I’m bamboozled by it all and I’ve never seen such predictable shite from any team, in any league, ever!

[Osvaldorama]

1 hour ago, Fabrice29 said:

I dont think using the ball as a hot potato in defence and getting it up to the two smallest strikers in the league (probably) as quickly and as often as possible will stand us in a good stead personally that’s all. I do think any success we have will involve feeding Fernandes and Dibling in areas where they can turn their man and attack space and think we should get better at that. 

So what you’re saying is, you agree? We need a new manager with a better football philosophy?

One that instructs the midfield to get on the ball and the team to counter rather than to faff about passing backwards and sideways?

Im glad you’ve finally seen the light 

 

[CB Fry]

8 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

Yes maybe the new man will be better and we’ll make a go of staying up this season, successful or not. Which was my point. None of this ‘prepare for next season’ crap. 

And I’m not making out anyone will be pining for RM or that he’ll go to Bayern, I’m just of the belief he isn’t the problem but if he gets sacked and we improve on all the metrics you’re all holding him to then happy days and I’ll admit I was wrong 👍

The new man will not keep us up, we are down. Russell Martin has ensured that before December even started. Quite the feat.

If you think that preparing for next season is "crap" then thats yet another reason to get rid of Martin. Useless this season, him preparing for next season is "crap" so get rid. Next season we worry about another time.

Glad we agree.

Edited 5 December, 2024 by CB Fry

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

Anyone else saw the scolding Lumley got for playing long?

I'm not sure what more can be said about this abomination that is Russball, surely if something isn't working for this long you'd try to change things up? 

The way that he stands on the touchline continually shouting out instructions is fundamentally wrong. Players have to be able to concentrate on playing the game without having to listen to what he's shouting at them. 

Train them well and then once you've sent them over the line let them do the job that they've been trained to do.

[HarvSFC]

15 minutes ago, SambaMaverick said:

Where has the idea that giving the ball away high up the pitch is somehow a bad thing come from?

Russell doesn't like it because it would require him to have the intelligence to co-ordinate a decent press or actually set some decent pressing traps. It would mean that his teams have to actually be fit, and be hyper-aware of their positioning at all times - who wants that?

At the moment he just wants us to have the ball until the opponent submits to our superiority, and our 11 goals scored (worst in the division) is proof that is going swimmingly.

I agree. Our work off the ball is also horrendous, it isn't just on the ball where we're making mistakes. For whatever reason we don't put pressure on players on the ball, giving them a lot of time and space, which you can't do at Premier League level as they can all pick out a pass. Alongside this, when opposition players run forward, we either go for a tactical shirt pull, resulting in a yellow, hence the disciplinary issues, or our defence will just back off and back off until the opposition finds themself in our box and with a shooting opportunity.

Examples of this from last night (purely off the highlights) were when Palmer hit the post. Joao Felix had all the time in the world to pick Palmer out. Madueke's goal. Manning just kept back off him, scared to go near him, give him distance, he shoots, he scores. Felix's big miss in the second half, Palmer received the ball in our box, goes wide, has two Saints shirts marking space around him, but not threatening to go near him and he's then able to pick out an unmarked Felix in a good position. Sancho's last goal, slightly harsh, but again Wood doesn't make any movement towards the player, or the ball, giving Sancho time and space in our own box.

Has to be tactical instructions also, as Martin's never had a good goals against record in his managerial career. Can't believe he was a defender during his playing days.

 

[Dellyears]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

The way that he stands on the touchline continually shouting out instructions is fundamentally wrong. Players have to be able to concentrate on playing the game without having to listen to what he's shouting at them. 

Train them well and then once you've sent them over the line let them do the job that they've been trained to do.

Agreed! When the game begins, its over to the captain and team. Alf Ramsey/Bobby Moore is the model

[Miltonaggro]

2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Defending isn't just about the ability of individual players though. You only need to have the most basic grasp of football to understand that.

It's a TEAM game, and good defending means defending as a TEAM. And it's the manager's job to coach and set up the TEAM to do that.

How do you not get this?

Last night's back five was Lumley, Wood, Stephens, Walker-Peters, Manning.  Three of those were signed by Martin (two are his former players - if not good enough why sign / play them?), the lynchpin is Stephens his shoehorned captain and adopted son, Bree is a neat player, a tryer, but limited, and KWP, an England full back two years ago who he continually plays out of position.

Arguably his best defence when all fit are Ramsdale, Sugawara, Bednarek, THB, ABK, and KWP - so three full England internationals, a Poland international with 65 full caps and full Germany and Japan internationals. 

Martin himself is a former international defender.

If he can't organise a defence with those players and that basis, then he is a fucking idiot. 

 

[Toussaint]

12 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

And if they did they would get subbed off for BBD 😄

Or disappear like Taylor 

[64saint]

24 minutes ago, Zorba said:

Why do we have much better managers than RM saying how wonderful it is that he insists on playing his way and that we are tough to play against.. !

That's easy to answer. They want him to play that way as it's the easiest 3 points they're ever going to get all season.  Opposition manager sure as hell ain't going to say ....it's suicidal football playing that way against us.....Of course they're going to admire him !!!!!!

Problem is, he actually believes them.

Edited 5 December, 2024 by 64saint

[Mr X]

Martin is like a turd the club can't flush away, every morning you hope he's gone but there he is floating away! 

[SaintsBarry74]

50 minutes ago, Zorba said:

But why do those same commentators and pundits still paise him for being brave, sticking to his mantra etc etc. Why do we have much better managers than RM saying how wonderful it is that he insists on playing his way and that we are tough to play against.. just before they do exactly what every manager has done this season and play a high press and wait for us to drop a bollock.

I’m bamboozled by it all and I’ve never seen such predictable shite from any team, in any league, ever!

Madueke also came out post match and being very complimentary of Saints. That’s like the 3rd or 4th person associated with a “big team” being complimentary to us. 

Was it Sir Alex who said to Pulis that if the big teams come to you and compliment you, you’re doing it wrong.

[Harry_SFC]

2 hours ago, Jack said:

Having small and quick strikers is exactly the reason TO get the ball forward quickly, into space. Not 30 passes on the halfway line, allowing opposition to regroup and then maybe a cross into the box won’t cut it, but giving them something to run onto might 

Yep. Brentford are the best example. No big players up top but they've scored lots of goals this season playing direct into the space. 

[trousers]

3 hours ago, CheshireSaint said:

Fabrice, you seem to be using the same logic as everybody else but coming up with a polar opposite conclusion. Everything you say is sound. Therefore, the ball needs to spend the minimum of time in our defensive third. Why does that currently not happen? Because RM decrees it so. Yet you seem to defend RM. He is absolutely the reason we are making so many mistakes. Yes these players in defence, are error prone, so recognise it and stop encouraging them to keep the bloody ball. Top step in Hierarchy of controls - Eliminate.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Miltonaggro said:

Last night's back five was Lumley, Wood, Stephens, Walker-Peters, Manning.  Three of those were signed by Martin (two are his former players - if not good enough why sign / play them?), the lynchpin is Stephens his shoehorned captain and adopted son, Bree is a neat player, a tryer, but limited, and KWP, an England full back two years ago who he continually plays out of position.

Arguably his best defence when all fit are Ramsdale, Sugawara, Bednarek, THB, ABK, and KWP - so three full England internationals, a Poland international with 65 full caps and full Germany and Japan internationals. 

Martin himself is a former international defender.

If he can't organise a defence with those players and that basis, then he is a fucking idiot. 

 

Absolutely spot on. 
 

As well as his 2 former players and HIS choice of club captain, there’s also his former room mate Fraser. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that’s a Lego signing as well. 
 

It’s too easy for the few still supporting him to claim he’s been given a poor squad, and whilst signings aren’t solely down to the manager nowadays , he has some input. Mind you some of his supporters are losing so much credibility, it wouldn’t be a  surprise if they claim the ex players and his buddy signing were a coincidence. 

What he does have sole responsibility for is, picking the captain, deciding the tactics, picking the side, making substitutions, coaching players to be better, cutting out errors. In every one, he’s failed miserably.
 

What has he actually done ok in, which aspects of his job role has he performed to an acceptable level? Unfortunately, waving at the crowd, cuddling players, pulling a fit bird , grooming a beard, and looking handsome on the touchline aren’t exactly high up premier league manager’s list of KPI’s. If they were Davie Moyes would be fucked. 

 

Edited 5 December, 2024 by Lord Duckhunter

[Miltonaggro]

13 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Absolutely spot on. 
 

As well as his 2 former players and HIS choice of club captain, there’s also his former room mate Fraser. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that’s a Lego signing as well. 
 

It’s too easy for the few still supporting him to claim he’s been given a poor squad, and whilst signings aren’t solely down to the manager nowadays , he has some input. Mind you some of his supporters are losing so much credibility, it wouldn’t be a  surprise if they claim the ex players and his buddy signing were a coincidence. 

What he does have sole responsibility for is, picking the captain, deciding the tactics, picking the side, making substitutions, coaching players to be better, cutting out errors. In every one, he’s failed miserably.
 

What has he actually done ok in, which aspects of his job role has he performed to an acceptable level? Unfortunately, waving at the crowd, cuddling players, pulling a fit bird , grooming a beard, and looking handsome on the touchline aren’t exactly high up premier league manager’s list of KPI’s. If they were Davie Moyes would be fucked. 

 

Last sentence was below belt. Moyes was a catch in his salad days! 

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

Just got in from a long day at work. Assume he's been sacked. Any rumours who's most likely to replace him yet?

[Mr X]

3 minutes ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

Just got in from a long day at work. Assume he's been sacked. Any rumours who's most likely to replace him yet?

Have you not learnt anything about SR, Why would you assume he's been sacked? 

[trousers]

19 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

Last sentence was below belt. Moyes was a catch in his salad days! 

Below the belt maybe... Not so sure about the bits above the belt though...

[Sheaf Saint]

25 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

Last sentence was below belt. Moyes was a catch in his salad days! 

I knew I recognised him from somewhere...

[Wade Garrett]

19 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

I love how people genuinely believe managers records will translate seamlessly to a new club without any regards for the people they’ll have to work with on a daily basis. 

Anyway, I think I said after the Wolves game that I’m sure we’ll find out soon enough whether it’s all one man’s fault and I’ll happily admit I was wrong when things miraculously improve under new management. 

You obviously didn’t experience Alan Ball taking over from Ian Branfoot.

[Oldandtired]

Looks like the Brighton manager has been learning from RM...

[Wade Garrett]

9 hours ago, beatlesaint said:

Biggest issue for me is that he is so arrogant he treats everyone else like they are stupid. Every pundit I have heard this season points out the issues but no, they are wrong, RM is right. 

Then there are the supporters, the fans who travel home and away to watch this Rusbball shite. Its an insult to the intelligence, some of the crap he comes out with are so far removed from what every paying customer can see that its beyond a joke. Take last night with his refusal to call out Stephens, instead preferring to get all misty eyed and have an erection over the bloke while telling us "Jack's been amazing for us" !!! Now if you were to ask 30,000 Saints fans who turn up at St Mary's week in week out - yes or no, has Jack Stephens been amazing for us - what percentage would say yes? 

How the hell local journos like Alfie House and Adam Blackmore can stand there and listen to his repeated drivel whilst keeping a straight face is quite frankly full credit to them !     

They’ve got cherry-blossom poisoning from all the boot-licking they do.

[coalman]

3 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

This is actually a sensible point, well done but there doesn’t really appear to be revolt against the manager from the players which suggests they are on board with things and just think they need to do it better. Anyway, I’m done now. This is all pointless, like Saints. 

I've been in a few positions where a team was really happy with their manager who I then had to fire. The manager just tells them they're great and it's all going to work out. Not having lost the dressing room is not a sign that Martin is doing a good job.

Conversely, my most successful teams all had a manager who was willing to be direct and give (and receive) feedback that was uncomfortable. Another thing they had in common was the ability to adapt and learn.

Edited 5 December, 2024 by coalman

[saintant]

2 hours ago, coalman said:

Martin doesn't seem to see the point of defensive central midfielders. All he appears to focus on is ball retention so he'll happily pick Lallana in central midfield and then wonder why we get steamrollered.

Needs to play a double pivot like all the best sides do but of course he's smarter than the rest.

[coalman]

Just now, saintant said:

Needs to play a double pivot like all the best sides do but of course he's smarter than the rest.

I agree. The worse your side is relative to every other team the more important it is to protect your defence. Our best times in the Premier League were based on solidity in front of the back four.

[Oldandtired]

10 minutes ago, coalman said:

I've been in a few positions where a team was really happy with their manager who I then had to fire. The manager just tells them they're great and it's all going to work out. Not having lost the dressing room is not a sign that Martin is doing a good job.

Conversely, my most successful teams all had a manager who was willing to be direct and give (and receive) feedback that was uncomfortable. Another thing they had in common was the ability to adapt and learn.

Witness the Chelsea manager having a go at Madueke despite him having scored and made one last night.

[Turkish]

Look at how Brighton are copying us. The revolution has begun!! 

[Challenger]

3 hours ago, Mr X said:

Martin is like a turd the club can't flush away, every morning you hope he's gone but there he is floating away! 

Problem is SR appear happy to keep their   " floater" around, either that or they haven't got the balls to pull the chain.