Russell Martin

[Harry_SFC]

14 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

We've got 4 points from 12 games. Last season we got promoted off the back of 3 points from our final 12 PL games. If we keep a reasonable chunk of the massive Championship squad we've assembled and the manager who took us up last time, there's no reason we can't get promoted again.

What 'it'll be like' in August is a new season against far weaker opposition. If we've still got Martin, BBD, Archer, Armstrong, Bednarek, Fraser and co. we should hit the ground running.

Including Martin, Fraser and BBD in that list isn't exactly filling me with confidence. 

[Sheaf Saint]

17 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

We've got 4 points from 12 games. Last season we got promoted off the back of 3 points from our final 12 PL games. If we keep a reasonable chunk of the massive Championship squad we've assembled and the manager who took us up last time, there's no reason we can't get promoted again.

What 'it'll be like' in August is a new season against far weaker opposition. If we've still got Martin, BBD, Archer, Armstrong, Bednarek, Fraser and co. we should hit the ground running.

OK so let's say Martin stays and gets us promoted again at the end of next season. Then what?

Do you want him going into another PL season with yet another very limited group of players and trying to get them playing in a way that is beyond them? 

RM will never change. If he stays and gets us back up again then in two years time we will simply be right back in the same position we are now: bottom of the league with a ridiculous number of largely avoidable goals conceded.

Would you be happy with that?

[tdmickey3]

If we keep Martin after this pathetic showing that we are on course for is madness, most sane supporters will want him gone.

Jones and Selles were an absolute disaster , should we have kept one of them?

Thought not, so why should we keep Martin, he’s is giving us another disaster ?

Edited 23 hours ago by tdmickey3

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

OK so let's say Martin stays and gets us promoted again at the end of next season. Then what?

Do you want him going into another PL season with yet another very limited group of players and trying to get them playing in a way that is beyond them? 

RM will never change. If he stays and gets us back up again then in two years time we will simply be right back in the same position we are now: bottom of the league with a ridiculous number of largely avoidable goals conceded.

Would you be happy with that?

I guess if they persist with him it’s because they think he will learn with the experience and be a better manager next season.

[Dellyears]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

I guess if they persist with him it’s because they think he will learn with the experience and be a better manager next season.

There's no way out, please let us have a fresh start

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

3 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I guess if they persist with him it’s because they think he will learn with the experience and be a better manager next season.

It's plainly obvious that is not going to happen. He doesn't learn as we all know. He is the genius who sees no need to change his approach

[tdmickey3]

Will Martin reference the scar tissue on repeat like he did last season?

Guess we won’t have any because the players are learning, being brave and sticking to the process or some other bulshit he comes out with

[Lighthouse]

19 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Including Martin, Fraser and BBD in that list isn't exactly filling me with confidence. 

Martin got us promoted last time, Fraser was a solid Championship option and BBD has averaged 15 goals across his last three Championship seasons, roughly watch Che managed last time.

11 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

OK so let's say Martin stays and gets us promoted again at the end of next season. Then what?

Do you want him going into another PL season with yet another very limited group of players and trying to get them playing in a way that is beyond them? 

RM will never change. If he stays and gets us back up again then in two years time we will simply be right back in the same position we are now: bottom of the league with a ridiculous number of largely avoidable goals conceded.

Would you be happy with that?

We’re jumping about ten steps ahead here. Let’s actually see if we do get promoted again first, then try and sign some decent PL players for a change, then see how Martin gets on with them.

[coalman]

1 minute ago, tdmickey3 said:

Will Martin reference the scar tissue on repeat like he did last season?

Guess we won’t have any because the players are learning, being brave and sticking to the process or some other bulshit he comes out with

You mean priceless Premier League experience. It's only scar tissue if it came from the previous manager. 

[SWLondon Saint]

25 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

, then try and sign some decent PL players for a change, then see how Martin gets on with them.

Well, we signed Taylor with tons of PL experience on a free and he's seemingly been exiled to the land of ABK. Tall Paul definitely looks like he has some quality and he got his first start 11 games in after barely being in the squad most of the season. Fernandes is clearly a PL standard player. Downes is certainly at least a fringe PL player as is THB.

You really think if we get promoted next year we'll sign 4-6 players better than that lot?

Edited 22 hours ago by SWLondon Saint
Wrong acronym defender the 2nd time round

[CanadaSaint]

Warning: Lengthy vent inbound.

I can’t believe I’m typing this when I’ve long felt little sympathy for spoilt, ludicrously-overpaid athletes who live cosseted lives and don’t face the day to day challenges most of us face.

But I really sympathize with our guys because they’re like the crew of the Costa Concordia, as our version of Francesco Schettino takes them on his ego-triggered journey onto the rocks.

Or, to use another metaphor, they are the cannon-fodder that “General Lead-From-Behind” sends out to meet their inevitable fate. The last words they hear from him are “Be brave, men, be brave”.

Russell Martin says “brave” constantly but only focuses on the first word of the definition: courage in the face of danger. He arrogantly refuses to focus on the last word (the word that pretty much the entire football world keeps using), and is dismissive of what that last word means for the players.

So what does it mean for the players?

I have little doubt that, if the real truth were told, the vast majority hate playing for him. You can see the fear in their eyes, the panic as they try to find the “Russball” pass when all their football instincts are telling them to do something else. They know they are being transformed into football robots. They know that being robotic and sycophantic with the manager will get you in the team ahead of far more talented players. They know that not being sufficiently robotic will get them a one-way trip to the sidelines. They know that when they make the inevitable mistake, all eyes will be focused on them. And then their mistake will be replayed and replayed again, before making its way to YouTube for even more people to see. They know that their career trajectories are heading ever-lower with each game under Russ.

Having played the position myself, I see Martin as a “keeper killer” because he forces his keepers to play in a way that compromises their positioning, and try to make Russball ‘contributions’ that A) are well out of their comfort zone and often beyond their capability, and B) damage their ability to actually be keepers. We can criticize Bazunu and McCarthy until we go blue in the face, but when we spend 25 million on a high-quality, ultra-confident keeper and can see the fear in his eyes two games into his stint with us, something is very, very wrong.

Despite their huge pay checks it's very sad to watch, and I’m really starting to feel for them.

Here’s another thing I can’t believe I’m typing, given our disastrous results so far. There are numerous very solid elements of Russball, and I’d be sorry to lose them. It can be great to watch until it hits the point at which it turns from great to suicidal.

The problem is back to that definition of “brave”. Martin’s self-besotted arrogance only allows him to see the courage part, not the danger part. The bit where everything falls apart.

Just as there’s a “trigger” for pressing tactics to kick in, there needs to be a trigger for Russball to end. But he just won’t accept it – won’t even pick fast, wide players who are targets for quick transition from Russball to penetrating offence. He says he wants fast transition but does nothing to make it happen, and sometimes even shows exasperation if someone tries it. I doubt that he took anything from Tall Paul’s excellent play on Sunday, other than the fear that it might derail Russball and make other talented but non-robotic players think that there’s a route from the doghouse to the starting lineup. I’d love to know what was said in his little chat with Dibling on Sunday – it didn’t look like they were on the same page but young Dibling seemed to be holding his ground.

It’s becoming increasingly clear that Russ isn’t leaving, so we can only hope that he is somehow forced to face some realities. It won’t come from SR – that’s like being up shit creek with Rasmus for a paddle. The fan opinions don’t work with Russ or Rasmus because they’re the smartest guys in every room they enter.

It needs a new dressing room leader (i.e. not Jack Stephens or Ross Manning – good guys but …) to have enough gonads to step forward, on behalf of what I suspect is a large majority of the squad, and have a frank conversation with the manager. It wouldn’t be a player “revolt” but a very pointed discussion.

So who’s going to have a chat with our Francesco Schettino?
 

[obelisk]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

We've got 4 points from 12 games. Last season we got promoted off the back of 3 points from our final 12 PL games.

That's an argument for ditching the current regime isn't it?

[Lighthouse]

7 minutes ago, SWLondon Saint said:

Well, we signed Taylor with tons of PL experience on a free and he's seemingly been exiled to the land of ABK. Tall Paul definitely looks like he has some quality and he got his first start 11 games in after barely being in the squad most of the season. Fernandes is clearly a PL standard player. Downes is certainly at least a fringe PL player as is THB.

You really think if we get promoted next year we'll sign 4-6 players better than that lot?

Taylor is a LB we signed on a free from relegated Burnley. He may well have tons of PL experience but so does Jack Stephens. TP has never scored a goal in England, he held the ball up well on Sunday but if we’re holding him up as an avatar of our squads ability we are in trouble. Fernandes looks decent, THB is steadily improving, Downes looks generally alright but has had two absolute clangers leading to goals so far.

Ramsdale, Fernandes and KWP are solid PL players. Not world beaters and when we go down they’ll probably be looking at West Ham and Fulham, rather than City and Liverpool, but they’re decent for a club like us. THB and Dibling will probably go to bigger clubs because of their age and potential. In short, you’re going to need more than five players (one of whom is an 18 year old and needs to be carefully managed) who are good enough to play in the PL in order to stay in it. If we can’t recruit better than that in two years time, hypothetically, then we’ll go straight back down again regardless of who’s at the helm.

[Gloucester Saint]

43 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I guess if they persist with him it’s because they think he will learn with the experience and be a better manager next season.

SR had better have deep pockets because 14k gates financially killed the club in 08/09. And make no mistake, there will be a boycott if Martin is anywhere near the club at that stage. 

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, obelisk said:

That's an argument for ditching the current regime isn't it?

It’s an argument for a very poor PL season having little bearing on next year in the championship. Last year Sheff Utd were abysmal, well adrift on 16 points, right now they’re top of the Championship. The best of the three promoted sides was Luton, who are now 17th.

[Oldandtired]

55 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

We’re jumping about ten steps ahead here. Let’s actually see if we do get promoted again first, then try and sign some decent PL players for a change, then see how Martin gets on with them.

What’s the point? Rm will coach any flair, imagination, talent, indeed anything decent out of them whilst indoctrinating them into his turgid and ponderous Russball.

 

 

[Mr X]

Surely it is ridiculous to think that there will be any good will towards Martin for another season in the championship???

Will fans just lamely accept someone with the lowest points total in premier league history managing our once half decent club? Repeating the same anti football style spouting the same ridiculous egotistical lines.

The club needs something positive now and that is Russ's dismissal we all know it's not going to save us but let's not go down so lamely with his name attached to the club. 

The club have lost the plot top to bottom and are treating the fanbase with contempt with a complete lack of communication...

Something's got to give but what? 

[trousers]

25 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Last year Sheff Utd were abysmal, well adrift on 16 points, right now they’re top of the Championship

If we want to use Sheff Utd as a role model, perhaps we should do what they did with their manager this time last year...?

Edited 22 hours ago by trousers

[Lighthouse]

6 minutes ago, trousers said:

If we want to use Sheff Utd as a role model, perhaps we should also do what they did with their manager this time last year...?

Chris Wilder is just coming up on his first anniversary there, these are his results from the second half of last season.

 

[LGTL]

Great, so becoming a fucking yo-yo club it is then. Quite why some on here want us to become Norwich/Sheff Utd/West Brom god only knows. Eventually, the luck runs out and we're a Championship club. As long as King Russ remains though. 

[CB Fry]

32 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

It’s an argument for a very poor PL season having little bearing on next year in the championship. Last year Sheff Utd were abysmal, well adrift on 16 points, right now they’re top of the Championship. The best of the three promoted sides was Luton, who are now 17th.

Sheffield United sacked Heckingbottom early December last year.

Luton have not sacked their manager because as all the geniuses know, Chopping and Changing never works.

Edited 22 hours ago by CB Fry

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Chris Wilder is just coming up on his first anniversary there, these are his results from the second half of last season.

 

As one of my favourite mods, perhaps you could urge the owner(s) of this splendid forum to introduce a tongue-in-cheek emoji to avoid people taking my posts too seriously...?

[CB Fry]

Of course this yo yo stuff is all horseshit on this forum. 

The exact same people now making out that this pitiful season is all for the greater good because we'll storm the Championship next season will conveniently forget all of that come August 1st.

Immediately those exact people will flip Immediately into making out how hard the Championship is, really we're underdogs when you think about it and Russell Martin will have done a brilliant job if we manage scrape sixth if you consider the scar tissue and remember we finished bottom you people need to be realistic etc etc etc.

Just like we had all last season when anyone saying "hang on, we should be challenging for the title with our resources" was shouted down by the Martinettes.

 

Don't believe the bullshitters.

Edited 21 hours ago by CB Fry

[SWLondon Saint]

42 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Taylor is a LB we signed on a free from relegated Burnley. He may well have tons of PL experience but so does Jack Stephens. TP has never scored a goal in England, he held the ball up well on Sunday but if we’re holding him up as an avatar of our squads ability we are in trouble. Fernandes looks decent, THB is steadily improving, Downes looks generally alright but has had two absolute clangers leading to goals so far.

Ramsdale, Fernandes and KWP are solid PL players. Not world beaters and when we go down they’ll probably be looking at West Ham and Fulham, rather than City and Liverpool, but they’re decent for a club like us. THB and Dibling will probably go to bigger clubs because of their age and potential. In short, you’re going to need more than five players (one of whom is an 18 year old and needs to be carefully managed) who are good enough to play in the PL in order to stay in it. If we can’t recruit better than that in two years time, hypothetically, then we’ll go straight back down again regardless of who’s at the helm.

Well you've kind of made my point for me - with Martin at the helm we have absolutely no chance of ever making it back into the PL and being a stable PL team again. So why not get rid and see if we can find someone who can get more out of slightly lesser players than a manager who needs probably a champions league team to even stay in the PL?

[Lighthouse]

9 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Sheffield United sacked Heckingbottom early December last year.

Luton have not sacked their manager because as all the geniuses know, Chopping and Changing never works.

Sheafs original point was that if we continue to be as poor as we’ve been, get relegated and keep Martin that we’re going to struggle next season because of a hangover. That’s not necessarily the case as The Blades are currently showing. Nothing is guaranteed but I’d say Russ is as likely to take us up as anyone else.

Wilder was the manager for the latter 2/3 of last season, they were absolutely dreadful and went down with the awful form that I posted above. The kept Wilder, now they’re top of the Championship. What happened under Heckingbottom prior to that isn’t relevant.

[CB Fry]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

Sheafs original point was that if we continue to be as poor as we’ve been, get relegated and keep Martin that we’re going to struggle next season because of a hangover. That’s not necessarily the case as The Blades are currently showing. Nothing is guaranteed but I’d say Russ is as likely to take us up as anyone else.

Wilder was the manager for the latter 2/3 of last season, they were absolutely dreadful and went down with the awful form that I posted above. The kept Wilder, now they’re top of the Championship. What happened under Heckingbottom prior to that isn’t relevant.

😂😂😂

Of course changing the manager doesn't fit your narrative. Of course not.

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

😂😂😂

Of course changing the manager doesn't fit your narrative. Of course not.

A wonderfully constructed argument, I know when I’m beaten. Goodnight.

[aintforever]

54 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

SR had better have deep pockets because 14k gates financially killed the club in 08/09. And make no mistake, there will be a boycott if Martin is anywhere near the club at that stage. 

If the team get results the attendances will be fine. Big if though.

[Wade Garrett]

Lighthouse, do you think Martin is getting the best out of his squad?

Edited 21 hours ago by Wade Garrett

[CB Fry]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

A wonderfully constructed argument, I know when I’m beaten. Goodnight.

I've made my argument already, which is when we go down with Martin, and if he is still our manager you will immediately flip to caveats and expectation management and downplaying everything that no actually we are not favourites to go up etc etc etc

So what's the point in keeping Russell Martin because he ain't going to win the Championship with us and you won't ever say that he will.

You don't like it but the fact is Sheffield United sacked their guy. Luton didn't and they're fucked.

[obelisk]

11 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Wilder was the manager for the latter 2/3 of last season, they were absolutely dreadful and went down with the awful form that I posted above. The kept Wilder, now they’re top of the Championship. What happened under Heckingbottom prior to that isn’t relevant.

Best argument I've seen yet for sacking Martin now.

[CB Fry]

10 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Best argument I've seen yet for sacking Martin now.

What happened under Russell Martin prior to that isn't relevant.

It's the complete lack of self awareness that I find quite sweet really.

Edited 21 hours ago by CB Fry

[disconnect]

I bet the board browse the forums and think "wow, 272 pages in a year on our amazing manager, that's ten times more than any player has got".

Board - that's about 250 pages worth of "why is he making them piss about with it at the back all the time" and "why is player X randomly dropped" and "Why does he keep saying we're brave when he's instructing them to pass to opposition players and we're constantly losing"?

We're not singing his praises alright 🤣 Please, we can do much better with this group of players just playing without his idiotic, stubborn approach, and the only way we'll do that (and coincidentally, save Sport Republic millions of pounds by not getting relegated), is by having a new management team in place. 

I guess the only way they'll hear it is if the players are cheered and the manager is booed sadly.

[saintant]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

We've got 4 points from 12 games. Last season we got promoted off the back of 3 points from our final 12 PL games. If we keep a reasonable chunk of the massive Championship squad we've assembled and the manager who took us up last time, there's no reason we can't get promoted again.

What 'it'll be like' in August is a new season against far weaker opposition. If we've still got Martin, BBD, Archer, Armstrong, Bednarek, Fraser and co. we should hit the ground running.

So, assuming your figures are correct, he's amassed a grand total of 7 points from his last 24 league games and you want to keep him on 🙂

[Farmer Saint]

6 hours ago, trousers said:

@Farmer Saint incoming in 3.....2.....1......

 

Thanks for thinking of me ❤️

[karlb79]

7 hours ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

The year is 2028, and Southampton, with Russell Martin's principles firmly intact, nestle into League One - whilst dominating possession at a rather impressive 85%.

And Jack Stephens will still be golden boy and captain, despite 170 individual errors leading to goals.

[HarvSFC]

Chris Wilder has two league titles, a runners-up finish in the Championship (beating Bielsa Leeds and Aston Villa) and took Sheffield United to 9th in the Premier League in their first season back. He had them 5th after 12 games following 12 years out of the top flight. As opposed to our 1.

He probably earned another go this season after the mess that Heckingbottom left.

Martin, on the other hand hadn't finished any higher than 10th in League One, or the Championship before he arrived here. Nathan Jones has a better CV and currently Ruben Selles is outperforming his League One record with a Reading side that doesn't have any funds. Martin had a 37.5% win rate at MK Dons across 80 games. Selles has 42.11% across 76.

Martin has very little to show for his five years in management so far other than getting a good Championship squad to 4th place and a play-off finish without really threatening the automatic places. You'd think conceding just two goals fewer than relegated Birmingham, who had Wayne Rooney for much of the season would also ring alarm bells. But, here we are with the worst goal difference in the Premier League by 5 goals. 8 worse than 19th Crystal Palace.

There were plenty of question marks regarding last season and this season has been dreadful. Yet, some still support him. Where's the want to see us actually compete in the league again. All well and good playing alright for spells against Liverpool, Arsenal and City, but we still finished with 0 points and the points lost from winning positions was the stat used to beat Hasenhuttl with.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

So, assuming your figures are correct, he's amassed a grand total of 7 points from his last 24 league games and you want to keep him on 🙂

Not sure you can blame Martin for the last 12 games of the 2022/23 PL season, to be fair...

[Farmer Saint]

I would add my two pennies worth, but you've heard it all before as I've been telling you all this for 18 months. However, in bullets:

- Getting promoted first season in the Championship was not good for the long term of the club becoming a sustainable PL club. We needed to build a strong core, but the basis of that core was loan players.

- We needed to spend £200m to stay up in the PL, but PSR innit?

- Once we got promoted, strategy had to change due to lack of real money to spend, especially on wages, leading us to become a player trading club with low cost, low wage, high upside players to add to top of Championship players to ensure "bouncebackability".

Very easy to criticise, as the usual suspects no doubt will, but I called all of this before Summer 2023, and it seems to have all come true so far. Quite a coincidence how lucky all my guesses are isn't it?

[Farmer Saint]

7 minutes ago, trousers said:

Not sure you can blame Martin for the last 12 games of the 2022/23 PL season, to be fair...

They'll try...

[Dark Munster]

8 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

We've got 4 points from 12 games. Last season we got promoted off the back of 3 points from our final 12 PL games. If we keep a reasonable chunk of the massive Championship squad we've assembled and the manager who took us up last time, there's no reason we can't get promoted again.

What 'it'll be like' in August is a new season against far weaker opposition. If we've still got Martin, BBD, Archer, Armstrong, Bednarek, Fraser and co. we should hit the ground running.

With him still here <shudder> we'll hit the ground walking sideways and backwards.

[Convict Colony]

Bottom by four points — and five from safety — after 12 of the 38 games is a worrying enough statistic, but the glaring mistakes that occur with regularity and with consequences during their play should be of more concern to manager Russell Martin and his squad.

Southampton have conceded 20 shots due to errors this season, higher than their fellow strugglers Crystal Palace and Ipswich Town combined (18). Eight of those have resulted in goals, three more than next-worst offenders Ipswich and Brighton & Hove Albion. Add in two penalties, and that accounts for more than 40 per cent of the 24 goals they’ve conceded.

Fans and analysts alike have attributed these errors to Martin’s insistence on a possession-based system that requires his players to build out from the back whatever the opposition. It worked in the Championship last season as they earned promotion via the play-offs in his first year in charge but is now failing in the top tier.

Martin is unlikely to change.

Southampton and Manchester City share the dubious record of allowing the largest percentage of shots via errors this season, at a little over nine per cent. This has contributed to Martin’s team averaging 17.8 shots conceded per game (second highest in the league, behind Brentford’s 19.2).

On the surface, Southampton’s attempting to play out from the back has been a factor, they have averaged 7.2 possessions lost in their defensive third per game, with 1.7 of those ending in shots. 

Exploring these further suggests that the larger issues are in the players’ on-the-pitch structure, game management and individual errors. 

Four of the errors leading to goals that Southampton have recorded this season have come against Liverpool and Arsenal, two teams known for their ability to press high. They were entirely avoidable mistakes, too.

The first goal against Liverpool on Sunday is a standout example. A few seconds after collecting Conor Bradley’s deflected shot, goalkeeper Alex McCarthy tried to set Southampton off in transition by passing to Mateus Fernandes. However, with five Liverpool players in the vicinity, this spelt danger.

Fernandes did well to get past two players to pass back to Flynn Downes, but the midfielder’s hacked clearance went straight to Dominik Szoboszlai on the edge of the area and he powered a shot home.

This commitment to a quick transition — which could partly be due to McCarthy, filling in for the injured Aaron Ramsdale, and his discomfort with the ball at his feet — flies in the face of Martin’s quest for control. Southampton made similar mistakes with first-choice Ramsdale in goal against Brentford in August to concede twice.

In the 42nd minute that day, Ramsdale pounced on a deflected cross from Mikkel Damsgaard and quickly passed out to his defence, which was still getting into an ideal shape. Taylor Harwood-Bellis was pressured by Damsgaard, who poked it forward to Kevin Schade. Schade’s effort hit the post, but with Southampton all over the place, Bryan Mbeumo was unmarked to score.

Then in the 65th minute, Ramsdale passed to Downes, who found Jack Stephens with four Brentford players in close quarters. Southampton’s structure was confused at best as Stephens then passed to Kyle Walker-Peters. A lack of communication saw Stephens and Jan Bednarek both then attempt to meet Walker-Peters’ risky infield pass, and Brentford won it back to set up Mbeumo again.

The way to avoid these issues is simply for the goalkeeper to either hold onto the ball a little longer before release, to allow his team-mates to reorganise, or opt to go long. 

While the goals above speak to issues with game management, those conceded against Arsenal in October suggest Martin has work to do with Southampton’s defensive shape when not dealing with transitions.

Cameron Archer had given them a 55th-minute lead, but their hard work was undone three minutes later.

Southampton built from the back with Ramsdale passing to Bednarek, who in turn found Fernandes. He played a short pass to Downes before charging forward but Downes, rather than progressing the play upfield, went for a sideways pass towards the left wing. Bukayo Saka instinctively stuck out a leg and won the ball before feeding Kai Havertz to equalise.

There are two individual mistakes to note here: Bednarek’s choice to pass first time into a crowded midfield rather than taking a touch or going wide and Downes’ positioning left Southampton with limited options, making it simple for Arsenal to win the ball back.

The third and final Arsenal goal that day emerged from more errors. As Bednarek jumped forward to win an aerial duel, Harwood-Bellis was in a good position to win the second ball but failed to decelerate, resulting in a heavy touch. Yukinari Sugawara stayed wide and deep rather than covering for him, which gave Leandro Trossard acres of space to run into.

Trossard lost the ball but, in recovering it, Sugawara erred by attempting to dribble out of his box. Even before he could take a second touch, Saka was on to him to make it 3-1. 

These positional errors are not limited to the goals alone.

Far too often, the spacing between Southampton’s defenders and midfielders presents issues. The sequence from last month’s 1-0 defeat to Manchester City, whose pressing levels have dropped considerably this season, is a telling example of how easy it is to hem Southampton into their defensive third to force a turnover.

Having received a pass from Ramsdale, Bednarek passed wide to Ryan Manning, but a lack of movement by Downes forced he and Bednarek to play a one-two. Backed into a corner, Manning then rushed a clearance (similar to Downes’ effort against Liverpool for Szoboszlai’s goal) and gave it straight to Matheus Nunes, who shot over.

They faced a similar issue during their 3-0 defeat to Bournemouth in August. When Bednarek received the ball, Lesley Ugochukwu was required to drop back to open a passing lane. He was too slow, but Bednarek did not consider the option anyway, passing to Charlie Taylor and sprinting forward instead.

Under pressure from Antoine Semenyo, Taylor was forced to go back to his goalkeeper but Southampton’s passing options were reduced by one due to Bednarek’s movement. Ramsdale tried to find Taylor again and Semenyo tackled him to set up a shot for Ryan Christie that Taylor blocked.

Southampton have made an alarming number of errors with the ball at their feet. Their outfield players have been culpable, but the more serious mistakes have come from ’keepers Ramsdale and McCarthy.

In the 44th minute against Liverpool, McCarthy gave the ball away to Cody Gakpo inside his own box, with the Dutchman seeing his shot blocked.

The goalkeeper’s indecision from a long ball forward then led to Salah scoring the equaliser that set up Liverpool’s 3-2 comeback victory.

McCarthy was also at fault in the 1-0 defeat away to Newcastle United in August. Newcastle were down to 10 men after Fabian Schar’s 28th-minute red card, but took the lead through Joelinton after McCarthy passed straight to Alexander Isak inside the box. Southampton’s defensive positioning is notably an issue here, with Bednarek and Downes offering little support, but McCarthy’s eagerness to get rid of the ball is the bigger one.

Ramsdale, brought in from Arsenal just before the summer transfer deadline to take over the starting spot, has been culpable too. Against Wolverhampton Wanderers this month, he came out of his area but passed straight to Jean-Ricner Bellegarde, whose effort from beyond the halfway line sailed wide.

He also gave the ball away against his previous team at the Emirates Stadium in October, and was lucky to go unpunished.

Southampton’s build-up shape is questionable here too, as it is far too narrow.

There have also been cases of underhit back passes from outfield players, like this Joe Aribo effort against Everton in September that was latched onto and subsequently fired over the crossbar by Orel Mangala…

… or this from Bednarek in the August game against Nottingham Forest that resulted in an Anthony Elanga interception and cutback for Chris Wood, who scuffed his shot.

Southampton’s fate this season is already sealed according to many following and analysing the Premier League, many of whom feel it is due to a lack of pragmatism from manager Martin.

His lack of pragmatism may be an issue, but a total change of approach is not the solution. 

Minor tweaks to in-game positioning and player decision-making while staying true to his principles could be one way to go.

Speaking to UK newspaper The Daily Telegraph this year on sticking to his football philosophy, Martin said “you need to have a way” as a young British coach with aspirations to stay at the top level.

He is right, but his journey, and Southampton’s fate, may hinge on the realisation that the “way” rarely emerges without refinements.

[Convict Colony]

This just gave me flashbacks

[CB Fry]

6 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

I would add my two pennies worth, but you've heard it all before as I've been telling you all this for 18 months. However, in bullets:

- Getting promoted first season in the Championship was not good for the long term of the club becoming a sustainable PL club. We needed to build a strong core, but the basis of that core was loan players.

- We needed to spend £200m to stay up in the PL, but PSR innit?

- Once we got promoted, strategy had to change due to lack of real money to spend, especially on wages, leading us to become a player trading club with low cost, low wage, high upside players to add to top of Championship players to ensure "bouncebackability".

Very easy to criticise, as the usual suspects no doubt will, but I called all of this before Summer 2023, and it seems to have all come true so far. Quite a coincidence how lucky all my guesses are isn't it?

You spent quite a lot of time saying we needed at least four £30m players on 4 year 100k a week contracts. Until it was pointed out that clubs like Brighton and Brentford don't have anything like that and then you eventually backed down.

You're on an open top bus parade thinking you've been proved right about staying down two seasons being better but us being shit this year is not proof of that concept. An SFC in the Championship this season is a completely different beast to this SFC today - for example Flynn or THB never sign for us, Bednarek, KWP leave etc etc. The very best time to get promoted is the season you're in. No ifs, no buts. Season 2 in the Championship doesn't get you closer to spending "£200m" in a promotion season, it gets you further away, and more baked in excuses as to why we are shit coming back up (we've been away two years what do people expect etc etc)

 

So in your little mind you are some soothsayer with genius foresight but sorry I have absolutely no idea what you think you have been proven correct about. All I see you is you being wrong about stuff.

Edited 12 hours ago by CB Fry

[Chewy]

6 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

I would add my two pennies worth, but you've heard it all before as I've been telling you all this for 18 months. However, in bullets:

- Getting promoted first season in the Championship was not good for the long term of the club becoming a sustainable PL club. We needed to build a strong core, but the basis of that core was loan players.

- We needed to spend £200m to stay up in the PL, but PSR innit?

- Once we got promoted, strategy had to change due to lack of real money to spend, especially on wages, leading us to become a player trading club with low cost, low wage, high upside players to add to top of Championship players to ensure "bouncebackability".

Very easy to criticise, as the usual suspects no doubt will, but I called all of this before Summer 2023, and it seems to have all come true so far. Quite a coincidence how lucky all my guesses are isn't it?

In simple terms, with PSR being an ongoing issue, where in the world does getting millions and millions of extra income from being in the premier league this season equate to being worse for the long-term of the club than not having that money. 
Even under this bunch of cretins I can hardly see them thinking “well that’s our plans f***ed, we’ve got millions more to play with than we planned for.”

Although, maybe that’s why they spaffed a few million on BBD, Wood, Edwards, Archer and Cornet. Just trying desperately to get rid of all the horrible unwanted extra cash.

Or maybe you’re talking rubbish 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Gloucester Saint]

9 hours ago, aintforever said:

If the team get results the attendances will be fine. Big if though.

We won’t with Martin there - remember how streaky we were last time and the crowd won’t have the comparative patience from last season. Would be huge losses for Dragan to underwrite but it’s his problem and liability not mine if he continues to listen to the Danish bullshitter. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Gloucester Saint

[Farmer Saint]

34 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

You spent quite a lot of time saying we needed at least four £30m players on 4 year 100k a week contracts. Until it was pointed out that clubs like Brighton and Brentford don't have anything like that and then you eventually backed down.

You're on an open top bus parade thinking you've been proved right about staying down two seasons being better but us being shit this year is not proof of that concept. An SFC in the Championship this season is a completely different beast to this SFC today - for example Flynn or THB never sign for us, Bednarek, KWP leave etc etc. The very best time to get promoted is the season you're in. No ifs, no buts. Season 2 in the Championship doesn't get you closer to spending "£200m" in a promotion season, it gets you further away, and more baked in excuses as to why we are shit coming back up (we've been away two years what do people expect etc etc)

 

So in your little mind you are some soothsayer with genius foresight but sorry I have absolutely no idea what you think you have been proven correct about. All I see you is you being wrong about stuff.

Considering you're persisting with the £100k thing when I literally said in my next post it was over-egged, I won't bother reading the rest of your diatribe as it's bound to be made-up, gaslighting, bullshit.

[Osvaldorama]

How anyone can defend a manager with a worse record than Jones, Selles and fucking Steve Wigley is absolutely beyond me. 
 

He’s really managed to cast a spell on the owners and some of the fans. 
 

[Farmer Saint]

26 minutes ago, Chewy said:

In simple terms, with PSR being an ongoing issue, where in the world does getting millions and millions of extra income from being in the premier league this season equate to being worse for the long-term of the club than not having that money. 
Even under this bunch of cretins I can hardly see them thinking “well that’s our plans f***ed, we’ve got millions more to play with than we planned for.”

Although, maybe that’s why they spaffed a few million on BBD, Wood, Edwards, Archer and Cornet. Just trying desperately to get rid of all the horrible unwanted extra cash.

Or maybe you’re talking rubbish 🤷🏻‍♂️

Cornet is on loan, so hardly spaffing millions. If we'd have bought him with little resale value, then I agree, but we didn't. The problem we had is we had to spend £50m of so to go backwards versus our team last season. BBD, Wood, Edwards, are all for the Championship for when we get relegated - they were relatively low cost but would do a good job there next season. Archer was a replacement for Che, but think we'd all prefer Che back. That left us with £60m, the need for a good keeper, and then a massively disjointed squad. They knew we had no chance with that so went low cost, high upside, resale value on the rest.

What I find quite strange is that you all get angry and take the piss out of Rasmus for being a visionary and doing things differently, yet as soon as I put together a slightly out there (but at the same time not unreasonable) scenario, there is no chance it could be correct.

I never said any of this was fact, and yes, it may all just be a coincidence, but I'm sticking with it - and nothing that I have seen has made me think we are not planning for several scenarios with no real care for which one happens.

Edited 11 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[CB Fry]

12 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Considering you're persisting with the £100k thing when I literally said in my next post it was over-egged, I won't bother reading the rest of your diatribe as it's bound to be made-up, gaslighting, bullshit.

What are these things that you have been going on about for "18 months" have you been proven correct about? Tell us.

The salaries/wages thing was more than one post from you and you know it.

Edited 11 hours ago by CB Fry