Russell Martin

[CB Fry]

5 hours ago, RTW Saint said:

Its pretty clear that most of the people who write on here have not been involved in coaching at any kind of level, which doesn't make their opinion irrelevant but does seem to mean that they fail to understand that the possession statistic is not a vanity points scoring exercise, but actually a measure of defensive solidity in the game.

Russell Martin's teams concede 60+ goals a season every season, Swansea, Saints whoever.

Nothing he has ever done has created "defensive solidity".

Nothing.

Edited November 5 by CB Fry

[coalman]

6 hours ago, RTW Saint said:

These are excellent questions @coalman and although i sense we probably sit on opposite sides of the argument, you've definitely made me consider a few things from that alternative perspective. I'll have a go at answering some of your points.

I think that the playing style gives the players a constant reference point regarding what they are trying to achieve. As they practice this more in training, and more importantly in PL games, they will start to look less panicky and it will become properly drilled in. At that point the fractions of a second that this opens up will result in more time (again fractions of seconds) to be able to scan, select and execute the forward passing that we all like to see. My point is that we won't be better than City, Liverpool etc at this because they are able to select players that are technically superior but overall there will be improvements through the season and it might just get us to the place where we suffocate the opposition to the extent that they overcommit, leave space and we start to score more goals. 

I always think that the Swansea away game last season is a signpost of what might happen this season (sounds odd, I know, so please bear with me). If you remember we absolutely destroyed them by playing short, quick passes and springing their press to go 2-0 up and it should probably have been 4 or 5. Given they were getting properly violated by Saints, the Swansea manager abandoned his press to limit the damage and just sat off Saints letting us have the ball and dictate the play. As it happened that day Swansea came into the game more and had quite a few chances but by that time Saints had scored 3 and were comfortable. When Swansea came to St Mary's they barely pressed us at all as they knew what that would lead to, and so Saints got to play entirely in their half and just picked them off winning 5-0. Now obviously Swansea are miles off PL standard, but as Saints get more settled I'm hoping we might see that we take a couple of teams apart who come to press us and that will then make for much less goal threat from Saints losing possession close to our goal.

I accept I could be wrong about this, but I think that is what we are working towards - oppo teams come to win the ball and we will play around them or choose to sit off us and they won't have the ball. We won't execute as well as City, Liverpool etc. but it will give us a style that players can rely upon and continue to grow into.

On the subject of crosses - I actually think in the last few games we have seen exactly the type of crosses that are most dangerous and lead to goals. I love the runs into the byline for the pull back which we scored from twice against Leicester and then also from Sugawara to Arma for the winner against Everton. These are the kind of crosses that score goals and I think the trend is looking good there.

Thanks for the thoughtful answer @RTW Saint. I don't think we're on opposite sides of the argument at all though it is easy to turn the Russell Martin conversation into polarised opinions. I think that possession football is the basis for any team that wants to survive in the Premier League. Hughes, Ralph (at the end and in patches), Jones and Selles all gave the ball away too cheaply and invited pressure. My first problem with Martin is his approach to possession football.

For me it's the clarifying questions you ask about it - for example

- When should we play short passes? Right now it feels like the answer to that is "almost all the time".
- When should we not play short passes? I'm not sure we have a good answer for this. There are many times during a game where a player has space to turn but plays the ball back to goal into pressure. We wind up wasting some really good passages of play.
- How should we play short passes? To take the weekend's game as an example - our passing was slow. By the time the ball arrived at the player, there was someone there closing them down. The player receiving the ball rarely took it and moved so they weren't creating space. The attackers could easily predict not only where it was going next but also next after that. This lack of zip put our players under unnecessary pressure.
- When should we play longer passes? Our attackers make lots of good runs in behind and in Archer we've got a genuinely pacy forward to take advantage of this but we don't make use of him enough that way. When we play a ball into space for Archer the other team is running backwards towards their own goal and under pressure.
- How can we move the ball forward quickly when we regain possession? If you look at the top teams in the Premier League they break really fast which is how they create a lot of their chances. We don't do this enough in my opinion. When we do we can really stretch teams and create chances. We did it much more last season than we are this season. When we do it we look good.
- How can we stretch teams? Our wide players need to be able to commit their man and beat them. Not necessarily all the time but if we simple top and pass it back every time then we give our opponents time to recover their shape which makes crossing the ball less effective. Right now our passing doesn't stretch our opponents. This leads to them being able to commit more men forward to press us in dangerous areas. It also means teams can set up narrow and stop us playing through them because they know we aren't getting the byline any time soon.
- Where do we want to be making our possession based mistakes? I would suggest near our opponents penalty area (despite the number of corner breakaway goals we concede) If we are playing possession we want it to be in our opponents halves as much as possible. Our possession style winds up with possession in the areas we least want to lose the ball in too much.

A manager's job is to teach the players how to think about this during games so they can make good decisions. Our players are not making good decisions. Passing is about moving the ball without thinking beyond the next pass in our team or being aware when we have space. We've complained for some time our players aren't vocal enough. Right now "bravery" seems to be about moving it to the next person and hoping they do something with it until we run out of road.

The second problem I have with Martin is our defending. Under Poch, Koeman and Ralph we worked hard to get the ball back. Which led to us creating possession at dangerous areas. Under Martin we're too passive so when we lose the ball we're making it too easy for teams to pass through our midfield and get over the halfway line. Throw in our inability to defend against set pieces and corners and we almost need 80% possession because we aren't good without the ball. Again, a manager's job is to coach the team to defend as a unit.

The last, and possibly the scariest, problem I have with Martin is his intransigence. Whenever I hear language like "we just need to keep doing what we're doing" or "we were unlucky" I die a little on the inside. That's the language people use when they aren't learning. And Martin really needs to learn and adapt if he is going to have any chance of success in the Premier League. Pep said some lovely things about us but that shows the difference in mentality - Pep believes he can learn something from every manager he plays no matter what the result. He is never happy with where he is or thinks he's the finished article. Russ seems to just want everyone to tell him how pure his football is and gets defensive when he gets asked the questions I've posed above. I get what you say about the Swansea games last year but the trouble is what happens when it doesn't work? Right now the answer seems to be keep doing more of the same.

I honestly believe we have the players to survive in this league. I think that there are elements to our passing that are really good and are something we could build on and that Martin has coached players who couldn't string 3 passes together into something much more cohesive. However, I don't think we have a manager who is either willing or capable to take what he has and evolve. I don't think he has good answers for the questions I posed above and that is holding him and the team back from fulfilling their potential and will prevent Martin from succeeding at this level.

Edited November 5 by coalman

[derry]

54 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

I don't think that's what he said at all. Every team in the PL is now tidy on the ball and passes the ball around with zip and accuracy for the most part. There's just nothing clever (and plenty stupid) about our determination to do most of that passing within 20 yards of our own goal mouth. 

I absolutely agree. I've got coaching badges which in the main bear little resemblance to managing.  The only thing I can say in my opinion successful management is "keep it simple, stupid" something all the really successful managers do. Look at the players, see what they can do, put them into a shape that complements their abilities, and look for blend and balance. What we are seeing is garbage and doesn't work. We are the worst team in the league that concedes three times as many goals as we score. We have been worked out and are easy to play against. Very few of our goals for were multi passing goals but either set pieces or quick breaks. Thanks to our goalkeeper and a quick break which all the other teams do we scored and clung on to win v Everton. Abysmal defending cost us 5 points against Leicester and Ipswich. Downes gave the ball away v Arsenal and a couple of passes later their equaliser was in our net. 

[Suhari]

Wow. Loads of long and intelligenty-type posts from previously less vocal posters. Saints must be getting trendy.

The two questions/topics my humble brain always circles back to on the RM discussion is:

* What is his primary responsibility at our club? - The answer is surely: to gain the maximum possible points haul.

* Is he doing everything possible to deliver this this?  The answer is surely: no. He's sticking to his principles/process, regardless of outcome.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

6 minutes ago, Suhari said:

* What is his primary responsibility at our club? - The answer is surely: to gain the maximum possible points haul.

Absolutely this. He is a club employee, hired to get the best results possible for the football club. Not the best results possible for Russell Martin. The two should go hand in hand, but they don't. Ergo, the best possible results for the football club, put Martin in a better light. 

[derry]

I've just been watching the U21s, two quick breaks 0-2 up at Woking. Playing the same garbage indiscriminate possession at the back. Mess up numerous times going nowhere, two quick goals against 2-2 at half time. The U21s are worse at it than the first team but not much!

Edited November 5 by derry

[saintwbu]

For all the talk about messing about with it at the back costing us goals, have we conceded one of those since Brentford in game 3? I can’t remember one…

Most of our goals conceded are down to poor defending from set pieces, which isn’t a result of the style of play from what I can see…

[East Kent Saint]

45 minutes ago, derry said:

I've just been watching the U21s, two quick breaks 0-2 up at Woking. Playing the same garbage indiscriminate possession at the back. Mess up numerous times going nowhere, two quick goals against 2-2 at half time. The U21s are worse at it than the first team but not much!

4-2 now oops

[Bob60]

14 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

4-2 now oops

Finished 4-4 😁

[derry]

26 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

For all the talk about messing about with it at the back costing us goals, have we conceded one of those since Brentford in game 3? I can’t remember one…

Most of our goals conceded are down to poor defending from set pieces, which isn’t a result of the style of play from what I can see…

Arsenal. Downes pass to Saka for Arsenal's first goal. Fatawu tore us a new one v Leicester.

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, derry said:

Arsenal. Downes pass to Saka for Arsenal's first goal. Fatawu tore us a new one v Leicester.

I don’t think trying to pass it out wide, ten yards from the halfway line can be counted in any way as ‘messing around at the back’. If anything we were left exposed at the back by everyone running forwards trying to catch Arsenal quickly on the counter, leaving big spaces for them to run into. That goal was pretty much the antithesis of what Russ is usually accused of.

[East Kent Saint]

20 minutes ago, Bob60 said:

Finished 4-4 😁

but Saints lost 3-0 on penalties 😶

[The Left Back]

To those who say Martin doesn't like to get the ball forward quickly should watch our goals from last season and count the number of times we turned defence into attack before the opposition had a chance to regroup.  I vaguely remember some analysis of us during the high point of the unbeaten run (December 23, January 24) where the whole point of his playing philosophy was to use high risking passing out in order to create attacks.  High risk, high reward.

Why I think we haven't delivered this is not because he wants us to fanny around with it a bit more but because (a) we're playing against higher quality opponents and (b) we've lost some confidence, making the safer pass - with a decision made in a split second - more attractive.  I call this JWP syndrome, as much as I loved him as a player, if he or the team were going through a tricky spell, he would revert to very safe passes backwards or sideways.  

So I don't agree with the script and don't even get me started on those who genuinely think that Martin wouldn't have enjoyed our goal against Everton. To suggest he's changed his principle to high risk low reward makes no sense.  Even if you except the accusation that he's more interested in his CV than club success (which I think is nonsense but that's another story) high risk low reward football is hardly career enhancing.  (And anyone who uses the words 'Vincent Kompany' to challenge that needs to do their research properly and not make lazy comparisons).

I'm not giving RM a blank cheque.  In the end it's a results business and he'll surely be sacked if he loses touch with 17th place or loses the dressing room.  I worry about whether he can coach to the standard required - we simply don't know yet.  And I worry that he has tinkered too much with selection, formation and subs (hardly intransigent though) - without real improvement (yet) apart from a few glimpses. 

 

[SaintsBarry74]

14 hours ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

Aaron Ramsdale must rue the day he signed for us. He deserves so much better. 

In his signing interview he said he was looking for action.

Considering how he's getting peppered in goal every game, I'd say he's got what he wanted.

[Sunnyside Saint]

7 hours ago, Suhari said:

* What is his primary responsibility at our club? - The answer is surely: to gain the maximum possible points haul.

Yes, that would be nice, but given what's happening you have to wonder if this is really top of the current priority list for SR's long-term mission to have a sustainable premier league football club.

Perhaps we are not set up well enough for that right now? I'm not resurrecting the 'yo-yo' club theory but maybe SR are "comfortable with the situation" to coin a well-worn SFC phrase and are prepared to play the long game (not in a hoof-ball way)? I guess the length of RM's tenure will shine some light on SR's approach to their 'project'.

[Oldandtired]

8 hours ago, Sunnyside Saint said:

Yes, that would be nice, but given what's happening you have to wonder if this is really top of the current priority list for SR's long-term mission to have a sustainable premier league football club.

 

It could be said that the first requirement for this is to actually stay in the premier league, um, for which you need points….

 

[Miltonaggro]

On 04/11/2024 at 18:51, Wade Garrett said:

Didn’t hear Pep praising the Bournemouth manager after their defeat.

He’s a piss-taking prick.

Indeed, but still baffling that Nathan 'Neymar' Redmond isn't in their first team...

[Convict Colony]

Some nice posts dudes, always appreciate tactical discussion and the shout out to my 2nd favourite bundesliga mgr Ole Werner, reckon he will be a coach that moves in the summer at the latest.

[Whitey Grandad]

On 05/11/2024 at 13:19, St Louis said:

I completely agree with every word of this, well put.
I know it goes against the tide on here to say you enjoy watching this style, but I agree with you wholeheartedly and am also enjoying the 'way we play' (not the results so far of course) and I've enjoyed watching Saints these last couple of years more than I have for a long time.
The results have been atrocious and need to pick up of course, but I personally hope we dont just pivot away from this team or style, and my hope is that we do turn it around with this management and team and do enough to stay up (looking unlikely I know) and then build further next season and beyond. Its exactly what teams like Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth have done in recent years... stayed up and built further each year, with a clear football philosophy and style. Like you, I would also take our squad and style of play over Everton (or several others) and I also think we've been unlucky to not have more points on the board and things would be 'OK' if we were sat in 17th, fine margins and all that....
*Time to put the tin hat on I think*
P.S I've been watching Saints since the mid/late 80's, so am not just a new 'modern' football fan who likes latte's and watching games from home.
P.P.S I am not Russell Martin, Russel Martin's Mum, Rasmus Ankersen or Lucy Pinder 😂

I have been away for a couple of days and suddenly up pop some new posters saying how wonderful and entertaining this alleged ‘style’ of Martin’s is.

Now whatever else I might be and despite what some people might think of me the one thing that I am not is stupid. Please just be honest and tell us why you have registered for this forum and who you represent because I cannot believe the tripe that I am reading here.

Like many others I have played in, refereed and watched several thousand games of football and this pretentious crap that we are being served is as tedious, boring, soporific as anything that I have ever seen. It will never achieve what you think it will for reasons that you won’t want to hear but have been expounded on here many times over.

It’s just not football. It’s a vanity project that nobody wants to look at. Please just go and take it somewhere else. Don’t expect me to continue paying to watch your ego trips.

Oh, and one thing more. In no way have we been unlucky. We have got exactly what we deserved. Maybe more than we deserved.

Who the f**k are you?

[Whitey Grandad]

On 05/11/2024 at 12:42, RTW Saint said:

What a completely uninformed paragraph. I don't call out other fans views that Martin doesn't know what he is doing and that this way of playing is not possible in the Premier League (a view which I completely disagree with) because at the end of the day we are all just fans and are entitled to say what we want about their football club. However this is just about what they like to see on a football pitch - it has no relevance to what a modern Premier League manager with a job remit of establish the club in the PL over the course of the next 3 years should be doing to achieve the owner's aims. The problem is that the game has changed since those days (which I loved) of Neil Ruddock, Jimmy Case, Iain Dowie and Le Tiss - the football that is played in the Premier League is very sophisticated with truly elite athletes all over the pitch. Just being skilful (e.g. Edozie, Sulemana) is not enough. I constantly hear around me at SMS complete morons screaming 'Get it Forward' - seemingly oblivious to the fact that long forward passing almost invariably results in loss of possession with players out of defensive position in advanced areas of the pitch. There is a reason that virtually no top half teams play long passes - it invites pressure. I understand that short passing close to Saints own goal also invites pressure - but the reason for the tactic was made perfectly clear on at least two occasions against Everton when the passing sequences are completed accurately and it results in Fernandes, Downes or Lallana receiving the ball on the turn in loads of space in the opponents half to launch an attack with the oppositions midfield stranded close to Bednarek, THB etc.   Its pretty clear that most of the people who write on here have not been involved in coaching at any kind of level, which doesn't make their opinion irrelevant but does seem to mean that they fail to understand that the possession statistic is not a vanity points scoring exercise, but actually a measure of defensive solidity in the game. The piece that is missing is that we don't have exactly the right personnel to be clinical once we successfully complete the passing sequences - that is where the likes of City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs excel and Saints just don't have the players right now.

Cascarino is by no means a ‘fan’. 

Can you please point out one thing he says that is incorrect?

And there is so much else in what you write that bears no resemblance to what I witnessed last Saturday. “Opposition’s midfield stranded” for instance.
And if you think that high possession means defensive solidity I’ve got a portfolio of bridges that you might be interested in.

[Charlie Wayman]

On 06/11/2024 at 03:28, Sunnyside Saint said:

Yes, that would be nice, but given what's happening you have to wonder if this is really top of the current priority list for SR's long-term mission to have a sustainable premier league football club.

Perhaps we are not set up well enough for that right now? I'm not resurrecting the 'yo-yo' club theory but maybe SR are "comfortable with the situation" to coin a well-worn SFC phrase and are prepared to play the long game (not in a hoof-ball way)? I guess the length of RM's tenure will shine some light on SR's approach to their 'project'.

I am not a great believer in "people taking the long term appoach" especially in football where everything is transient and short term. That is akin to "kicking the can down the road"

It is cited a lot on here but Ockham's Razor should always be at the forefront of one's mind when making assessments.

Yo-yo is not a strategy.

[trousers]

Isn't this how 'Russball' is supposed to work...?

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/TcjtWrhw9kHEvSpP/

 

[notnowcato]

10 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I have been away for a couple of days and suddenly up pop some new posters saying how wonderful and entertaining this alleged ‘style’ of Martin’s is.

Now whatever else I might be and despite what some people might think of me the one thing that I am not is stupid. Please just be honest and tell us why you have registered for this forum and who you represent because I cannot believe the tripe that I am reading here.

Like many others I have played in, refereed and watched several thousand games of football and this pretentious crap that we are being served is as tedious, boring, soporific as anything that I have ever seen. It will never achieve what you think it will for reasons that you won’t want to hear but have been expounded on here many times over.

It’s just not football. It’s a vanity project that nobody wants to look at. Please just go and take it somewhere else. Don’t expect me to continue paying to watch your ego trips.

Oh, and one thing more. In no way have we been unlucky. We have got exactly what we deserved. Maybe more than we deserved.

Who the f**k are you?

Chill, Whitey, it’s just an opinion. 

[Midfield_General]

Someone who registered 18 years ago dares to say they don’t mind the possession-based approach and it makes them a highly suspicious, pro-Martin new poster 🤣

If that’s you Russell, you’ve played the long game there, signing up to SaintsWeb when you were 20 and getting 500 posts in as groundwork over the course of your entire playing and managerial career. 

And to think people say his prep isn’t thorough enough. 

Edited November 7 by Midfield_General

[Whitey Grandad]

17 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Chill, Whitey, it’s just an opinion. 

It’s an agenda (don’t. just don’t).

Why now?

[Whitey Grandad]

51 minutes ago, trousers said:

Isn't this how 'Russball' is supposed to work...?

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/TcjtWrhw9kHEvSpP/

 

All I see is bad defending. Two of them almost collide with each other.

[notnowcato]

58 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It’s an agenda (don’t. just don’t).

Why now?

An agenda on a football forum? Unlikely these days. 
All the poster said was he was enjoying the football, some actually do, surprising / alarming / triggering as that is to you. 

[tdmickey3]

1 hour ago, notnowcato said:

An agenda on a football forum? Unlikely these days. 
All the poster said was he was enjoying the football, some actually do, surprising / alarming / triggering as that is to you. 

Hahahahaha!! enjoying football, with 4 points from 30

[gio1saints]

Enjoying the thoughtful posts on here. That’s more like it. It’s not always black and white, in fact rarely if ever. I guess why footie can * be fun. 
 

* I never like losing it’s not fun. But I go to the footie not just for the result. The feeling at final whistle last week was more than just a “ win” and three points at that stage. Same for the Final. It’s something transcendent. And in order to b this feeling to really matter it’s often the case that it needs be in the most improbable and difficult of circumstances. 
 

I wonder how joyous Man City fans felt when they beat us 1-0 compared to us beating Everton. I’d say ours was probably a 9/10 and there’s was a 3/10. Both3 points but vastly different impact to the supporters. And longer lasting. 

[Ted Bates Statue]

13 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I have been away for a couple of days and suddenly up pop some new posters saying how wonderful and entertaining this alleged ‘style’ of Martin’s is.

Now whatever else I might be and despite what some people might think of me the one thing that I am not is stupid. Please just be honest and tell us why you have registered for this forum and who you represent because I cannot believe the tripe that I am reading here.

Like many others I have played in, refereed and watched several thousand games of football and this pretentious crap that we are being served is as tedious, boring, soporific as anything that I have ever seen. It will never achieve what you think it will for reasons that you won’t want to hear but have been expounded on here many times over.

It’s just not football. It’s a vanity project that nobody wants to look at. Please just go and take it somewhere else. Don’t expect me to continue paying to watch your ego trips.

Oh, and one thing more. In no way have we been unlucky. We have got exactly what we deserved. Maybe more than we deserved.

Who the f**k are you?

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, gio1saints said:

guess why footie can * be fun. 
 

* I never like losing it’s not fun. But I go to the footie not just for the result.

Footie 

Nod alert……

[Oldandtired]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Footie 

Nod alert……

I think he means soccerball.

[saintant]

5 hours ago, trousers said:

Isn't this how 'Russball' is supposed to work...?

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/TcjtWrhw9kHEvSpP/

 

If only! Clearly it's how you coach it because there was nothing there that any half competent pro footballer couldn't do - it was simple pass and movement at its best.

[ErwinK1961]

15 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I have been away for a couple of days and suddenly up pop some new posters saying how wonderful and entertaining this alleged ‘style’ of Martin’s is.

Now whatever else I might be and despite what some people might think of me the one thing that I am not is stupid. Please just be honest and tell us why you have registered for this forum and who you represent because I cannot believe the tripe that I am reading here.

Like many others I have played in, refereed and watched several thousand games of football and this pretentious crap that we are being served is as tedious, boring, soporific as anything that I have ever seen. It will never achieve what you think it will for reasons that you won’t want to hear but have been expounded on here many times over.

It’s just not football. It’s a vanity project that nobody wants to look at. Please just go and take it somewhere else. Don’t expect me to continue paying to watch your ego trips.

Oh, and one thing more. In no way have we been unlucky. We have got exactly what we deserved. Maybe more than we deserved.

Who the f**k are you?

What a weird post.

You do know the person you’re responding to joined the forum in 2006? That’s one hell of an inside job if you’re insinuating Russell Martin planted someone on a football forum 18 years before getting the managers job to fight his corner.

They’re also saying they are enjoying watching us play, its an opinion, which they’re just as entitled to have as you are yours.

Edited November 7 by ErwinK1961

[notnowcato]

1 hour ago, tdmickey3 said:

Hahahahaha!! enjoying football, with 4 points from 30

Yep, and if you insist on being as base with your correlation then I also enjoyed all 87 points from last season too.

Being a proper Saints fan over multiple decades I'm used to a bit of adversity in the top league, the trick is not to shit your pants too often.

[skintsaint]

5 hours ago, trousers said:

Isn't this how 'Russball' is supposed to work...?

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/TcjtWrhw9kHEvSpP/

 

No can't be having that bollox. The left winger took a man on and ran forward at pace.

[tdmickey3]

2 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Yep, and if you insist on being as base with your correlation then I also enjoyed all 87 points from last season too.

Being a proper Saints fan over multiple decades I'm used to a bit of adversity in the top league, the trick is not to shit your pants too often.

Proper fan 🤣 

So because we got 87 points last season means we have to be happy with the pathetic amount we have accumulated this season and just clap like seals 🙄

No one is shitting there pants, but i reckon you wet yours when you see Russell 

[notnowcato]

7 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

Proper fan 🤣 

So because we got 87 points last season means we have to be happy with the pathetic amount we have accumulated this season and just clap like seals 🙄

No one is shitting there pants, but i reckon you wet yours when you see Russell 

No, you're creating an argument that doesn't exist.

I'm enjoying the football we try to play.  I don't like losing.  One does not necessarily equal the other.

[Oldandtired]

11 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

 

the football we try to play.  I don't like losing.  One does not necessarily equal the other.

This season it mostly does.

Edited November 7 by Oldandtired

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

32 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Yep, and if you insist on being as base with your correlation then I also enjoyed all 87 points from last season too.

Being a proper Saints fan over multiple decades I'm used to a bit of adversity in the top league, the trick is not to shit your pants too often.

what's your definition of a "proper" saints fan exactly?

Nobody is shitting their pants, just pointing out the football is turgid, the tactics are boring and easily worked out by the opposition and the team has made one of the worst starts to the PL ever

[tdmickey3]

21 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

No, you're creating an argument that doesn't exist.

I'm enjoying the football we try to play.  I don't like losing.  One does not necessarily equal the other.

You are the one creating the argument, accusing people of shitting their pants because they don't agree with you about the football being marvellous.

You seem easily pleased and most of us are not

[Wade Garrett]

On 05/11/2024 at 12:42, RTW Saint said:

What a completely uninformed paragraph. I don't call out other fans views that Martin doesn't know what he is doing and that this way of playing is not possible in the Premier League (a view which I completely disagree with) because at the end of the day we are all just fans and are entitled to say what we want about their football club. However this is just about what they like to see on a football pitch - it has no relevance to what a modern Premier League manager with a job remit of establish the club in the PL over the course of the next 3 years should be doing to achieve the owner's aims. The problem is that the game has changed since those days (which I loved) of Neil Ruddock, Jimmy Case, Iain Dowie and Le Tiss - the football that is played in the Premier League is very sophisticated with truly elite athletes all over the pitch. Just being skilful (e.g. Edozie, Sulemana) is not enough. I constantly hear around me at SMS complete morons screaming 'Get it Forward' - seemingly oblivious to the fact that long forward passing almost invariably results in loss of possession with players out of defensive position in advanced areas of the pitch. There is a reason that virtually no top half teams play long passes - it invites pressure. I understand that short passing close to Saints own goal also invites pressure - but the reason for the tactic was made perfectly clear on at least two occasions against Everton when the passing sequences are completed accurately and it results in Fernandes, Downes or Lallana receiving the ball on the turn in loads of space in the opponents half to launch an attack with the oppositions midfield stranded close to Bednarek, THB etc.   Its pretty clear that most of the people who write on here have not been involved in coaching at any kind of level, which doesn't make their opinion irrelevant but does seem to mean that they fail to understand that the possession statistic is not a vanity points scoring exercise, but actually a measure of defensive solidity in the game. The piece that is missing is that we don't have exactly the right personnel to be clinical once we successfully complete the passing sequences - that is where the likes of City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs excel and Saints just don't have the players right now.

Fernandes is a gem of a player who won't be with us for too long, but I think as we watch him develop through the season he is going to be the catalyst for a lot more attempts at goal - he is the perfect player for the style that the manager wants to play. Martin may ultimately fail because results are, correctly, the ultimate gauge of success. But    personally I like how we play because looking beyond this first few months of the PL season it has the potential to propel Saints to much higher positions in the table over the mid-term. I doubt Martin will last that long but give me technical football played by top quality players (THB, Downes, Lallana etc.) any day over the style played by Everton on Saturday.

If you’re not a club plant, then my cock’s a bloater.

[notnowcato]

42 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

You are the one creating the argument, accusing people of shitting their pants because they don't agree with you about the football being marvellous.

You seem easily pleased and most of us are not

There you go again... I didn't accuse anyone of shitting their pants about anything.  I'm not expecting everyone to agree on anything be that style of play - you're just making this up.

You clearly have an issue with my opinion, of which I couldn't give a shiny shit.

[notnowcato]

1 hour ago, Oldandtired said:

This season it mostly does.

Not really, many styles could also equal the same outcome.

[Oldandtired]

9 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Not really, many styles could also equal the same outcome.

They could, but they're not the styles that are giving us the abysmal season we are having so far.

[notnowcato]

6 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

They could, but they're not the styles that are giving us the abysmal season we are having so far.

Pleased you recognise that many styles could give us an abysmal season too.

[Oldandtired]

7 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Pleased you recognise that many styles could give us an abysmal season too.

Whoopydo.

[Fabrice29]

Club plants ffs  Someone dares to suggest they'd rather see us pass the ball to each other than the other team pass the ball to each other and they are suddenly holed up in Staplewood on a short term contract to defend something that could potentially be over in 3 days. You melts  

[St Louis]

17 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I have been away for a couple of days and suddenly up pop some new posters saying how wonderful and entertaining this alleged ‘style’ of Martin’s is.

Now whatever else I might be and despite what some people might think of me the one thing that I am not is stupid. Please just be honest and tell us why you have registered for this forum and who you represent because I cannot believe the tripe that I am reading here.

Like many others I have played in, refereed and watched several thousand games of football and this pretentious crap that we are being served is as tedious, boring, soporific as anything that I have ever seen. It will never achieve what you think it will for reasons that you won’t want to hear but have been expounded on here many times over.

It’s just not football. It’s a vanity project that nobody wants to look at. Please just go and take it somewhere else. Don’t expect me to continue paying to watch your ego trips.

Oh, and one thing more. In no way have we been unlucky. We have got exactly what we deserved. Maybe more than we deserved.

Who the f**k are you?

Haha, calm down. Clearly stupid enough to not click on my profile and see I'm not that 'new' as I've been posting on here for nearly 19 years, and The Saints Forum for many years before that. It doesnt bother me one bit that you have a different opinion and dont like this style, good on you. And you shouldnt care that some of us do, why would that bother you?

I'll assume you're just joking and that you aren't just a complete d*ck who cant accept that different people might enjoy different things. Ive been a ST holder and watched most home games and many away games for near on 40 years, so wind it in a bit and let people have their own opinions. You make yourself come across as very bitter, and maybe you could try a different sport or different team that you can enjoy watching? Or just try enjoying supporting Saints, like most of us who go to the games do, whether we win, draw (or usually) lose!

It's a real shame you can't go to games anymore because you have such disdain for the young manager and "wont continue paying to watch his ego trips", as you'll be sadly missed by those who sit near you I'm sure. In contrast, you are aware that the "vanity project that nobody wants to look at" which you talk of, sells out every week home and away arent you? So please dont speak for all of us!

If you read my original post you'd see I expect we will we go down, and I'm as disappointed as you with the results (obviously), but I'm enjoying watching my team play with a style and I'm enjoying the ride, last season and this. And whats the worst that could happen, we go down and I will still love watching us in The Championship (whoever the manager is). And who are you to tell me I can't? 

Like tastes in football, music, movies, women or anything else in life.... we will all enjoy different variations. Maybe try and understand that before you tell us all you arent stupid 😂

[St Louis]

7 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

Someone who registered 18 years ago dares to say they don’t mind the possession-based approach and it makes them a highly suspicious, pro-Martin new poster 🤣

If that’s you Russell, you’ve played the long game there, signing up to SaintsWeb when you were 20 and getting 500 posts in as groundwork over the course of your entire playing and managerial career. 

And to think people say his prep isn’t thorough enough. 

🤣 Sorry must dash, I've got a Friday morning press conference at work to prep for, and my spiced latte is getting cold.