Russell Martin

[SaintsBarry74]

7 hours ago, Tommy said:

When Ruud Van Nistlerooy gets dumped by Man Utd next week we should look at him as an option if they pull the trigger on Martin. Already got that team playing much better football

 

 

I disagree, this is the worst Man Utd side since Alex Ferguson left. Not that it is his fault, but definitely no improvement either.

The 5 goals they scored against Leicester's reserve team came from indvidual brilliance and random luck. 

[Professor]

Do we think it's true that Russell Martin would have been sacked if we had lost Everton?  With Everton having a shot that hit the bar in the final minutes as well as having a goal ruled out by VAR in that narrow offside decision, the win was largely down to luck.  Ta takes nothing away from Arma's brilliant strike but even with that, we could easily have lost by 2 goals to 1.  For us to get the 3 points with a slice of luck is one thing.  Luck plays a part in many games.  But for Martin to keep his job due to luck is quite different.  If they were going to sack him for a defeat, I can't really see why a lucky win should save his job.  With a run of matches against top half teams coming up we're going to be well off the pace before Christmas unless SR appoint a manager with the relevant experience for the Premier League. Martin's CV isn't for this level f football.

[Sarnia Cherie]

4 minutes ago, Professor said:

Do we think it's true that Russell Martin would have been sacked if we had lost Everton?  With Everton having a shot that hit the bar in the final minutes as well as having a goal ruled out by VAR in that narrow offside decision, the win was largely down to luck.  Ta takes nothing away from Arma's brilliant strike but even with that, we could easily have lost by 2 goals to 1.  For us to get the 3 points with a slice of luck is one thing.  Luck plays a part in many games.  But for Martin to keep his job due to luck is quite different.  If they were going to sack him for a defeat, I can't really see why a lucky win should save his job.  With a run of matches against top half teams coming up we're going to be well off the pace before Christmas unless SR appoint a manager with the relevant experience for the Premier League. Martin's CV isn't for this level f football.

I was thinking they would give him both Everton and Wolves before giving him the push. After Wolves we have a delightful run of Liverpool, Brighton, Chelsea, Villa and Spurs to bring us up to a Happy Christmas. If RM makes a muck of that will the Board be reluctant to sack him because we were playing against, with the exception of Brighton, teams in the top 6? Or will they bottle out because it's the festive season? Personally, I don't think luck or sentiment should come into it. If we lose to Wolves he needs to go. 

[tdmickey3]

2 minutes ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

I was thinking they would give him both Everton and Wolves before giving him the push. After Wolves we have a delightful run of Liverpool, Brighton, Chelsea, Villa and Spurs to bring us up to a Happy Christmas. If RM makes a muck of that will the Board be reluctant to sack him because we were playing against, with the exception of Brighton, teams in the top 6? Or will they bottle out because it's the festive season? Personally, I don't think luck or sentiment should come into it. If we lose to Wolves he needs to go. 

He should have gone weeks ago

[Dusic]

Pretty clear he stays until at least next year now.

Players still seem onside and if were to make a change soon then a horror fixture run means whoever takes over could easily lose their first 4 or 5 and then they would be under pressure.

Before a ball was kicked we were likely to get relegated because we got promoted via playoffs and have without doubt one of the three worst XIs and squads. None of that has changed and yet if we beat Wolves all of a sudden there is perhaps some kind of hope. 

If he was going then it should have been after Bournemouth, makes less sense now IMO.

[HKsaint]

What if we won in the game vs Ipswich, drew vs Leicester City and lost vs Everton? 

[Wade Garrett]

He’ll be here for the season now.

Best to accept it and move on.

Fucking hard for me to say that 😂.

[Jack]

4 minutes ago, HKsaint said:

What if we won in the game vs Ipswich, drew vs Leicester City and lost vs Everton? 

We’d still be in the shit and nailed on for relegation, as we are now

[Dman]

1 minute ago, Wade Garrett said:

He’ll be here for the season now.

Best to accept it and move on.

Fucking hard for me to say that 😂.

I'm not sure - we're about to hit a run of hidous games, so a win against Wolves is really a must. 

Lose against wolves and by christmas it could (still probably will) look really ugly. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

57 minutes ago, Professor said:

Do we think it's true that Russell Martin would have been sacked if we had lost Everton?  With Everton having a shot that hit the bar in the final minutes as well as having a goal ruled out by VAR in that narrow offside decision, the win was largely down to luck.  Ta takes nothing away from Arma's brilliant strike but even with that, we could easily have lost by 2 goals to 1.  For us to get the 3 points with a slice of luck is one thing.  Luck plays a part in many games.  But for Martin to keep his job due to luck is quite different.  If they were going to sack him for a defeat, I can't really see why a lucky win should save his job.  With a run of matches against top half teams coming up we're going to be well off the pace before Christmas unless SR appoint a manager with the relevant experience for the Premier League. Martin's CV isn't for this level f football.

I think they are trying to follow the Brighton/ Brentford decision making by data process, along with the results, dressing room etc.

That evens out some of the Everton win against say an individual error against Ipswich (not that I think RM is doing the right thing there).

If they were going to move on, then I can only imagine that the new coach is already on his way. If not, then RM for the season, unless he loses the dressing room or we get tanked every week and the data shows it falling apart.

 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

13 hours ago, Saint86 said:

Playing devils advocate, if the more attacking subs don't come on, we don't open up the game and get what should have been a blatant penalty putting us 3-1 up... Instead a couple of minutes later we're 2-2 and with 10men... mostly thanks to insanely inconsistent (best case and being nice) Video Assistant refereeing (most would call it openly biased as a minimum). Don't get me wrong, i am one of the ones that bemoaned those subs post match - but i can only moan about it because we didn't get the pen and instead got shafted. Had the pen been given, we probably would be here saying it was a good performance, rather than having people pointing to it as a bad defeat. As others have said, its fine margins. It certainly feels like there are some in the fanbase that can't enjoy the win because they refused to step back from wanting martin gone for even a few minutes.

And tbh on the set piece front (thinking Ipswich), we've looked pretty solid from most corners and set pieces despite immense pressure at times. The two goals that have cost us (Leicester and Ipswich) were both because of player errors where someone didn't do their job and cover/close down out side of the box. The result is we all sit here and lambast Martin for awful defensive set up on corners... but actually having seen us do that setup most games now, we actually look very solid with it generally. Reality is its a championship squad and a championship manager - they need time to step up... whether they can is very much a doubt... but they've got the first win now, they beat stoke as well, there is a bit of momentum there. I watch wolves palace the other night, they are utterly abysmal defensively and wasteful up front - they are there for the taking even if its going to be a low standard nerve biting mess of a game... and win that and things don't look anywhere near as glum.

And get that the above is looking for the positives (such as they are) and hoping we improve and get a bit more luck - but its evident Martin isn't going anywhere... so whilst he (and the players) are trying, you may as well try to find something to support and enjoy in being a saints fan - Its not all going to be back to back promotions, top 10 prem finishes, and flirts with europe. Think some forget perennially being in the relegation zone and pulling off last minute escapes was our typical MO for quite a few seasons.

I think for me, the issue is Martin's in game management. I get the impression, especially in our earlier games, that subs were made for all the wrong reasons. I get that we have a large squad, and every player thinks he should be playing, but it seemed in some games that Martin was determined to get certain players on just to get them on the pitch. That would work if you had like for like players, but the drop off in quality we have on the bench from the pitch is pretty stark. It certainly had a detrimental effect in the latter stages of some games. Also, the amount of changes in one go doesn't help the team either, just creates a bit of confusion for five minutes or so as they all adapt to different shapes etc. Am hoping that as the season goes on, if he is still here, that just because he can make subs, doersn't mean he needs to.

[tdmickey3]

15 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

He’ll be here for the season now.

Best to accept it and move on.

Fucking hard for me to say that 😂.

Yes, as utterly ridiculous as it is, we are stuck with this bore fest

[Whitey Grandad]

Tony Cascarino in The Times today,

 

If you ask me now which teams are going to go down then picking one of them is an easy answer — Southampton look destined for the drop — but the other two are harder to call.

Southampton

We’ve said it before this season and we will say it again — but tactically they are too inflexible. Their centre backs touch the ball far too often, they have no way of lifting a siege and for Cameron Archer up front it is going to get very frustrating. I know from personal experience from playing in teams where possession is scarce; you have to live off scraps, crosses don’t come in, the ball isn’t played in to you quickly and if you don’t take the few chances you get that’s it. Southampton aren’t going to blow teams away at this level. What worked for you in the Championship isn’t going to work up here. Some people think what Russell Martin is doing is admirable. I just think it’s deeply flawed.

Key man Aaron Ramsdale — some of the saves he made on Saturday were spectacular. They are going to need a lot more performances like that this season, and even then I don’t think it’s going to be enough.

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

I'm not sure - we're about to hit a run of hidous games, so a win against Wolves is really a must. 

Lose against wolves and by christmas it could (still probably will) look really ugly. 

Changing manager at Xmas would be too late to avoid relegation.

[saintwbu]

27 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Tony Cascarino in The Times today,

 

If you ask me now which teams are going to go down then picking one of them is an easy answer — Southampton look destined for the drop — but the other two are harder to call.

 

Southampton

We’ve said it before this season and we will say it again — but tactically they are too inflexible. Their centre backs touch the ball far too often, they have no way of lifting a siege and for Cameron Archer up front it is going to get very frustrating. I know from personal experience from playing in teams where possession is scarce; you have to live off scraps, crosses don’t come in, the ball isn’t played in to you quickly and if you don’t take the few chances you get that’s it. Southampton aren’t going to blow teams away at this level. What worked for you in the Championship isn’t going to work up here. Some people think what Russell Martin is doing is admirable. I just think it’s deeply flawed.

Key man Aaron Ramsdale — some of the saves he made on Saturday were spectacular. They are going to need a lot more performances like that this season, and even then I don’t think it’s going to be enough.

Was just wondering what Tony Cascarino thought actually. Anyone got a report of the game from Tim Sherwood, Garth Crooks or Clinton Morrison? 

[tdmickey3]

31 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Tony Cascarino in The Times today,

 

If you ask me now which teams are going to go down then picking one of them is an easy answer — Southampton look destined for the drop — but the other two are harder to call.

 

Southampton

We’ve said it before this season and we will say it again — but tactically they are too inflexible. Their centre backs touch the ball far too often, they have no way of lifting a siege and for Cameron Archer up front it is going to get very frustrating. I know from personal experience from playing in teams where possession is scarce; you have to live off scraps, crosses don’t come in, the ball isn’t played in to you quickly and if you don’t take the few chances you get that’s it. Southampton aren’t going to blow teams away at this level. What worked for you in the Championship isn’t going to work up here. Some people think what Russell Martin is doing is admirable. I just think it’s deeply flawed.

Key man Aaron Ramsdale — some of the saves he made on Saturday were spectacular. They are going to need a lot more performances like that this season, and even then I don’t think it’s going to be enough.

Its what we are all thinking , well, except a few

[Disco Stu]

7 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

Was just wondering what Tony Cascarino thought actually. Anyone got a report of the game from Tim Sherwood, Garth Crooks or Clinton Morrison? 

Every pundit pretty much says the same thing about how we play.

[saintwbu]

32 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Every pundit pretty much says the same thing about how we play.

Some of them will be doing so with an informed view, i’d be pretty confident that Tony Cascarino won’t have watched us play a single 90 minutes this season that wasn’t on Sky (United and Bournemouth). Most decided from watching Burnley last year that no team will ever be able to play a possession based game without getting relegated - ignoring that there have been several mid table teams doing so in recent years. 

[Dark Munster]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Tony Cascarino in The Times today,

 

If you ask me now which teams are going to go down then picking one of them is an easy answer — Southampton look destined for the drop — but the other two are harder to call.

 

Southampton

We’ve said it before this season and we will say it again — but tactically they are too inflexible. Their centre backs touch the ball far too often, they have no way of lifting a siege and for Cameron Archer up front it is going to get very frustrating. I know from personal experience from playing in teams where possession is scarce; you have to live off scraps, crosses don’t come in, the ball isn’t played in to you quickly and if you don’t take the few chances you get that’s it. Southampton aren’t going to blow teams away at this level. What worked for you in the Championship isn’t going to work up here. Some people think what Russell Martin is doing is admirable. I just think it’s deeply flawed.

Key man Aaron Ramsdale — some of the saves he made on Saturday were spectacular. They are going to need a lot more performances like that this season, and even then I don’t think it’s going to be enough.

Dragan needs to read this. 

[verlaine1979]

FWIW, it's total revisionism to paint the Ipswich game as one where they stole a point. We didn't play well and the game was pretty even.

[OldNick]

I so want him to succeed but I do worry his vanity is more important to him than us. Pep saying such lovely things about his game can only make him more certain his way is the correct way. Im happy for him to play his way but pleeeeeeeeeease sometimes let the players express themselves a bit more and get the ball into the box earlier or shoot 

[Roo1976]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Every pundit pretty much says the same thing about how we play.

So if every ex- player/pundit  keeps saying the same thing, why cant our idiots see the playing style for what it is then?

[Wade Garrett]

2 hours ago, OldNick said:

I so want him to succeed but I do worry his vanity is more important to him than us. Pep saying such lovely things about his game can only make him more certain his way is the correct way. Im happy for him to play his way but pleeeeeeeeeease sometimes let the players express themselves a bit more and get the ball into the box earlier or shoot 

Didn’t hear Pep praising the Bournemouth manager after their defeat.

He’s a piss-taking prick.

[danjosaint]

5 hours ago, saintwbu said:

Some of them will be doing so with an informed view, i’d be pretty confident that Tony Cascarino won’t have watched us play a single 90 minutes this season that wasn’t on Sky (United and Bournemouth). Most decided from watching Burnley last year that no team will ever be able to play a possession based game without getting relegated - ignoring that there have been several mid table teams doing so in recent years. 

Jeez another one, it's so blatantly obvious it won't work, doesn't work but I guess theres a couple of posters who know more than some ex pro's, funny how TC got it spot on even if he's only seen glimpses 

Edited November 4 by danjosaint

[Dark Munster]

4 hours ago, Roo1976 said:

So if every ex- player/pundit  keeps saying the same thing, why cant our idiots see the playing style for what it is then?

I think it's because they are idiots.

[SaintsBarry74]

7 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Every pundit pretty much says the same thing about how we play.

Yeah, but it’s definitely picked up lately—probably because they’ve been watching more of us.

"

Southampton

Honestly, I don’t know if Saturday’s win makes a huge difference to my thoughts on Southampton. They had 65 per cent possession and yet Everton had more shots, more shots on target and, generally, more attacking intent. That has been the pattern of Southampton’s season in general.

In effect, the only significant change was that Aaron Ramsdale had his best game since joining the club in the summer and gave Adam Armstrong the chance to score the winner late on. That is notable in itself: his fifth Premier League goal on his 60th appearance.

Also of note was how much Russell Martin talked up togetherness again after the final whistle. A fortnight since Martin was castigating players and questioning their stomach for a survival fight, there he was saying: “I have happiness, pride and gratitude with the players, the staff, owners and the board. The way they work, the way they train, they’re an amazing group, I love being here and I want to drag it out for as long as I can.” That’s an about turn." - Daniel Storey.

[Weston Super Saint]

16 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Every pundit pretty much says the same thing about how we play.

Meh, pundits!  Renowned for not understanding the 'real' metrics of football.  That's why they're pundits and not elite level soccerball head coaches.

[Charlie Wayman]

15 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Dragan needs to read this. 

It's only yet another random person's opinion, why would he take any more notice of this one than any other?

He won't!

Edited November 5 by Charlie Wayman

[Sarnia Cherie]

18 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Tony Cascarino in The Times today,

 

If you ask me now which teams are going to go down then picking one of them is an easy answer — Southampton look destined for the drop — but the other two are harder to call.

 

Southampton

We’ve said it before this season and we will say it again — but tactically they are too inflexible. Their centre backs touch the ball far too often, they have no way of lifting a siege and for Cameron Archer up front it is going to get very frustrating. I know from personal experience from playing in teams where possession is scarce; you have to live off scraps, crosses don’t come in, the ball isn’t played in to you quickly and if you don’t take the few chances you get that’s it. Southampton aren’t going to blow teams away at this level. What worked for you in the Championship isn’t going to work up here. Some people think what Russell Martin is doing is admirable. I just think it’s deeply flawed.

Key man Aaron Ramsdale — some of the saves he made on Saturday were spectacular. They are going to need a lot more performances like that this season, and even then I don’t think it’s going to be enough.

Aaron Ramsdale must rue the day he signed for us. He deserves so much better. 

[Dman]

2 hours ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

Aaron Ramsdale must rue the day he signed for us. He deserves so much better. 

He's here to play football. We were probably the only club willing to guarentee a starting spot and willing to pay the money. 

If we stay up he stays in the PL. If he does exceptionally well he probably moves on. If we go down, he moves on anyway. 

Its a bit of a no brainer for him - We'll make a fairly heafty loss on him no doubt, but he wont be playing in the championship next season. 

[Oldandtired]

3 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

It's only yet another random person's opinion, why would he take any more notice of this one than any other?

He won't!

But surely he has eyes that work reasonably well? If not I can recommend a good optician.

Edited November 5 by Oldandtired

[Cabrone]

2 hours ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

Aaron Ramsdale must rue the day he signed for us. He deserves so much better. 

I don't think so. He gets to play every week and takes home a good pay packet.

If he manages to keep us up he'll be a hero, if he doesn't no-one will blame him.

He'll be able to move on to another club if we go down, no way a GK that good will be ignored.

He'll be OK. Just enjoy him while he is here.

[skintsaint]

31 minutes ago, Dman said:

We'll make a fairly heafty loss on him no doubt, but he wont be playing in the championship next season. 

I thought I read his release clause isn't far off what we paid.

[Toussaint]

3 hours ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

Aaron Ramsdale must rue the day he signed for us. He deserves so much better. 

125,000 "rues" every week.

[East Kent Saint]

He plays every game , all his saves add to his reputation which could get him back in the England squad.

[RTW Saint]

21 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Tony Cascarino in The Times today,

 

If you ask me now which teams are going to go down then picking one of them is an easy answer — Southampton look destined for the drop — but the other two are harder to call.

 

Southampton

We’ve said it before this season and we will say it again — but tactically they are too inflexible. Their centre backs touch the ball far too often, they have no way of lifting a siege and for Cameron Archer up front it is going to get very frustrating. I know from personal experience from playing in teams where possession is scarce; you have to live off scraps, crosses don’t come in, the ball isn’t played in to you quickly and if you don’t take the few chances you get that’s it. Southampton aren’t going to blow teams away at this level. What worked for you in the Championship isn’t going to work up here. Some people think what Russell Martin is doing is admirable. I just think it’s deeply flawed.

Key man Aaron Ramsdale — some of the saves he made on Saturday were spectacular. They are going to need a lot more performances like that this season, and even then I don’t think it’s going to be enough.

What a completely uninformed paragraph. I don't call out other fans views that Martin doesn't know what he is doing and that this way of playing is not possible in the Premier League (a view which I completely disagree with) because at the end of the day we are all just fans and are entitled to say what we want about their football club. However this is just about what they like to see on a football pitch - it has no relevance to what a modern Premier League manager with a job remit of establish the club in the PL over the course of the next 3 years should be doing to achieve the owner's aims. The problem is that the game has changed since those days (which I loved) of Neil Ruddock, Jimmy Case, Iain Dowie and Le Tiss - the football that is played in the Premier League is very sophisticated with truly elite athletes all over the pitch. Just being skilful (e.g. Edozie, Sulemana) is not enough. I constantly hear around me at SMS complete morons screaming 'Get it Forward' - seemingly oblivious to the fact that long forward passing almost invariably results in loss of possession with players out of defensive position in advanced areas of the pitch. There is a reason that virtually no top half teams play long passes - it invites pressure. I understand that short passing close to Saints own goal also invites pressure - but the reason for the tactic was made perfectly clear on at least two occasions against Everton when the passing sequences are completed accurately and it results in Fernandes, Downes or Lallana receiving the ball on the turn in loads of space in the opponents half to launch an attack with the oppositions midfield stranded close to Bednarek, THB etc.   Its pretty clear that most of the people who write on here have not been involved in coaching at any kind of level, which doesn't make their opinion irrelevant but does seem to mean that they fail to understand that the possession statistic is not a vanity points scoring exercise, but actually a measure of defensive solidity in the game. The piece that is missing is that we don't have exactly the right personnel to be clinical once we successfully complete the passing sequences - that is where the likes of City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs excel and Saints just don't have the players right now.

Fernandes is a gem of a player who won't be with us for too long, but I think as we watch him develop through the season he is going to be the catalyst for a lot more attempts at goal - he is the perfect player for the style that the manager wants to play. Martin may ultimately fail because results are, correctly, the ultimate gauge of success. But    personally I like how we play because looking beyond this first few months of the PL season it has the potential to propel Saints to much higher positions in the table over the mid-term. I doubt Martin will last that long but give me technical football played by top quality players (THB, Downes, Lallana etc.) any day over the style played by Everton on Saturday.

[coalman]

4 minutes ago, RTW Saint said:

What a completely uninformed paragraph. I don't call out other fans views that Martin doesn't know what he is doing and that this way of playing is not possible in the Premier League (a view which I completely disagree with) because at the end of the day we are all just fans and are entitled to say what we want about their football club. However this is just about what they like to see on a football pitch - it has no relevance to what a modern Premier League manager with a job remit of establish the club in the PL over the course of the next 3 years should be doing to achieve the owner's aims. The problem is that the game has changed since those days (which I loved) of Neil Ruddock, Jimmy Case, Iain Dowie and Le Tiss - the football that is played in the Premier League is very sophisticated with truly elite athletes all over the pitch. Just being skilful (e.g. Edozie, Sulemana) is not enough. I constantly hear around me at SMS complete morons screaming 'Get it Forward' - seemingly oblivious to the fact that long forward passing almost invariably results in loss of possession with players out of defensive position in advanced areas of the pitch. There is a reason that virtually no top half teams play long passes - it invites pressure. I understand that short passing close to Saints own goal also invites pressure - but the reason for the tactic was made perfectly clear on at least two occasions against Everton when the passing sequences are completed accurately and it results in Fernandes, Downes or Lallana receiving the ball on the turn in loads of space in the opponents half to launch an attack with the oppositions midfield stranded close to Bednarek, THB etc.   Its pretty clear that most of the people who write on here have not been involved in coaching at any kind of level, which doesn't make their opinion irrelevant but does seem to mean that they fail to understand that the possession statistic is not a vanity points scoring exercise, but actually a measure of defensive solidity in the game. The piece that is missing is that we don't have exactly the right personnel to be clinical once we successfully complete the passing sequences - that is where the likes of City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs excel and Saints just don't have the players right now.

Fernandes is a gem of a player who won't be with us for too long, but I think as we watch him develop through the season he is going to be the catalyst for a lot more attempts at goal - he is the perfect player for the style that the manager wants to play. Martin may ultimately fail because results are, correctly, the ultimate gauge of success. But    personally I like how we play because looking beyond this first few months of the PL season it has the potential to propel Saints to much higher positions in the table over the mid-term. I doubt Martin will last that long but give me technical football played by top quality players (THB, Downes, Lallana etc.) any day over the style played by Everton on Saturday.

I'm no coach (at least for football) and I may well be a moron but I do have some questions.

If we don't have the players to play like City should we be trying to? Surely the manager's job is to get the best results with the players they have?

How can possession be a measure of defensive solidity if it regularly leads to clear goal scoring opportunities for the other team and giving them possession in dangerous areas of the pitch?

When was it said that Russell Martin's remit was to establish Saints as a Premier League within 3 seasons?

Top teams also cross the ball into the box a lot - why aren't we doing that?

[St Louis]

23 minutes ago, RTW Saint said:

What a completely uninformed paragraph. I don't call out other fans views that Martin doesn't know what he is doing and that this way of playing is not possible in the Premier League (a view which I completely disagree with) because at the end of the day we are all just fans and are entitled to say what we want about their football club. However this is just about what they like to see on a football pitch - it has no relevance to what a modern Premier League manager with a job remit of establish the club in the PL over the course of the next 3 years should be doing to achieve the owner's aims. The problem is that the game has changed since those days (which I loved) of Neil Ruddock, Jimmy Case, Iain Dowie and Le Tiss - the football that is played in the Premier League is very sophisticated with truly elite athletes all over the pitch. Just being skilful (e.g. Edozie, Sulemana) is not enough. I constantly hear around me at SMS complete morons screaming 'Get it Forward' - seemingly oblivious to the fact that long forward passing almost invariably results in loss of possession with players out of defensive position in advanced areas of the pitch. There is a reason that virtually no top half teams play long passes - it invites pressure. I understand that short passing close to Saints own goal also invites pressure - but the reason for the tactic was made perfectly clear on at least two occasions against Everton when the passing sequences are completed accurately and it results in Fernandes, Downes or Lallana receiving the ball on the turn in loads of space in the opponents half to launch an attack with the oppositions midfield stranded close to Bednarek, THB etc.   Its pretty clear that most of the people who write on here have not been involved in coaching at any kind of level, which doesn't make their opinion irrelevant but does seem to mean that they fail to understand that the possession statistic is not a vanity points scoring exercise, but actually a measure of defensive solidity in the game. The piece that is missing is that we don't have exactly the right personnel to be clinical once we successfully complete the passing sequences - that is where the likes of City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs excel and Saints just don't have the players right now.

Fernandes is a gem of a player who won't be with us for too long, but I think as we watch him develop through the season he is going to be the catalyst for a lot more attempts at goal - he is the perfect player for the style that the manager wants to play. Martin may ultimately fail because results are, correctly, the ultimate gauge of success. But    personally I like how we play because looking beyond this first few months of the PL season it has the potential to propel Saints to much higher positions in the table over the mid-term. I doubt Martin will last that long but give me technical football played by top quality players (THB, Downes, Lallana etc.) any day over the style played by Everton on Saturday.

I completely agree with every word of this, well put.
I know it goes against the tide on here to say you enjoy watching this style, but I agree with you wholeheartedly and am also enjoying the 'way we play' (not the results so far of course) and I've enjoyed watching Saints these last couple of years more than I have for a long time.
The results have been atrocious and need to pick up of course, but I personally hope we dont just pivot away from this team or style, and my hope is that we do turn it around with this management and team and do enough to stay up (looking unlikely I know) and then build further next season and beyond. Its exactly what teams like Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth have done in recent years... stayed up and built further each year, with a clear football philosophy and style. Like you, I would also take our squad and style of play over Everton (or several others) and I also think we've been unlucky to not have more points on the board and things would be 'OK' if we were sat in 17th, fine margins and all that....
*Time to put the tin hat on I think*
P.S I've been watching Saints since the mid/late 80's, so am not just a new 'modern' football fan who likes latte's and watching games from home.
P.P.S I am not Russell Martin, Russel Martin's Mum, Rasmus Ankersen or Lucy Pinder 😂

[Toussaint]

36 minutes ago, St Louis said:

I completely agree with every word of this, well put.
I know it goes against the tide on here to say you enjoy watching this style, but I agree with you wholeheartedly and am also enjoying the 'way we play' (not the results so far of course) and I've enjoyed watching Saints these last couple of years more than I have for a long time.
The results have been atrocious and need to pick up of course, but I personally hope we dont just pivot away from this team or style, and my hope is that we do turn it around with this management and team and do enough to stay up (looking unlikely I know) and then build further next season and beyond. Its exactly what teams like Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth have done in recent years... stayed up and built further each year, with a clear football philosophy and style. Like you, I would also take our squad and style of play over Everton (or several others) and I also think we've been unlucky to not have more points on the board and things would be 'OK' if we were sat in 17th, fine margins and all that....
*Time to put the tin hat on I think*
P.S I've been watching Saints since the mid/late 80's, so am not just a new 'modern' football fan who likes latte's and watching games from home.
P.P.S I am not Russell Martin, Russel Martin's Mum, Rasmus Ankersen or Lucy Pinder 😂

If your not actually Lucy Pinder could you please delete the pictures I just DM'd you?

[Lord Duckhunter]

I’ve watched Boscombe, Fulham, Forest, and other sides pass the fucking  ball & play a possession based game. Nearly every friggin team in the top 2 divisions play like that. Why do Lego’s fan club seem to think he’s an exception, that it either the Lego way or a big Charles Hughes type hoof ball. Despite what he thinks he hasn’t reinvented the wheel or been particularly innovative, he’s just playing a ridiculous unsustainable and boring version of what everyone else is doing better. 
 

Some of our supporters are drinking the Lego Kool-Aid

[RTW Saint]

43 minutes ago, coalman said:

I'm no coach (at least for football) and I may well be a moron but I do have some questions.

If we don't have the players to play like City should we be trying to? Surely the manager's job is to get the best results with the players they have?

How can possession be a measure of defensive solidity if it regularly leads to clear goal scoring opportunities for the other team and giving them possession in dangerous areas of the pitch?

When was it said that Russell Martin's remit was to establish Saints as a Premier League within 3 seasons?

Top teams also cross the ball into the box a lot - why aren't we doing that?

These are excellent questions @coalman and although i sense we probably sit on opposite sides of the argument, you've definitely made me consider a few things from that alternative perspective. I'll have a go at answering some of your points.

I think that the playing style gives the players a constant reference point regarding what they are trying to achieve. As they practice this more in training, and more importantly in PL games, they will start to look less panicky and it will become properly drilled in. At that point the fractions of a second that this opens up will result in more time (again fractions of seconds) to be able to scan, select and execute the forward passing that we all like to see. My point is that we won't be better than City, Liverpool etc at this because they are able to select players that are technically superior but overall there will be improvements through the season and it might just get us to the place where we suffocate the opposition to the extent that they overcommit, leave space and we start to score more goals. 

I always think that the Swansea away game last season is a signpost of what might happen this season (sounds odd, I know, so please bear with me). If you remember we absolutely destroyed them by playing short, quick passes and springing their press to go 2-0 up and it should probably have been 4 or 5. Given they were getting properly violated by Saints, the Swansea manager abandoned his press to limit the damage and just sat off Saints letting us have the ball and dictate the play. As it happened that day Swansea came into the game more and had quite a few chances but by that time Saints had scored 3 and were comfortable. When Swansea came to St Mary's they barely pressed us at all as they knew what that would lead to, and so Saints got to play entirely in their half and just picked them off winning 5-0. Now obviously Swansea are miles off PL standard, but as Saints get more settled I'm hoping we might see that we take a couple of teams apart who come to press us and that will then make for much less goal threat from Saints losing possession close to our goal.

I accept I could be wrong about this, but I think that is what we are working towards - oppo teams come to win the ball and we will play around them or choose to sit off us and they won't have the ball. We won't execute as well as City, Liverpool etc. but it will give us a style that players can rely upon and continue to grow into.

On the subject of crosses - I actually think in the last few games we have seen exactly the type of crosses that are most dangerous and lead to goals. I love the runs into the byline for the pull back which we scored from twice against Leicester and then also from Sugawara to Arma for the winner against Everton. These are the kind of crosses that score goals and I think the trend is looking good there.

[RTW Saint]

59 minutes ago, St Louis said:

I completely agree with every word of this, well put.
I know it goes against the tide on here to say you enjoy watching this style, but I agree with you wholeheartedly and am also enjoying the 'way we play' (not the results so far of course) and I've enjoyed watching Saints these last couple of years more than I have for a long time.
The results have been atrocious and need to pick up of course, but I personally hope we dont just pivot away from this team or style, and my hope is that we do turn it around with this management and team and do enough to stay up (looking unlikely I know) and then build further next season and beyond. Its exactly what teams like Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth have done in recent years... stayed up and built further each year, with a clear football philosophy and style. Like you, I would also take our squad and style of play over Everton (or several others) and I also think we've been unlucky to not have more points on the board and things would be 'OK' if we were sat in 17th, fine margins and all that....
*Time to put the tin hat on I think*
P.S I've been watching Saints since the mid/late 80's, so am not just a new 'modern' football fan who likes latte's and watching games from home.
P.P.S I am not Russell Martin, Russel Martin's Mum, Rasmus Ankersen or Lucy Pinder 😂

Appreciate that St Louis - it is reassuring to know I am not completely alone! I'll keep my tin hat ready as well just in case though!

[Kermitzasaint]

21 hours ago, OldNick said:

I so want him to succeed but I do worry his vanity is more important to him than us. Pep saying such lovely things about his game can only make him more certain his way is the correct way. Im happy for him to play his way but pleeeeeeeeeease sometimes let the players express themselves a bit more and get the ball into the box earlier or shoot 

Bree stated that he would be in trouble for shooting in the cup game. He was quoted as saying that RM would be furious as there we free players in the box who could be passed to. RM wants the perfect goal and has coached the team to avoid shooting at all costs

[Weston Super Saint]

18 minutes ago, Kermitzasaint said:

Bree stated that he would be in trouble for shooting in the cup game. He was quoted as saying that RM would be furious as there we free players in the box who could be passed to. RM wants the perfect goal and has coached the team to avoid shooting at all costs

Our box?

[SWLondon Saint]

1 hour ago, RTW Saint said:

On the subject of crosses - I actually think in the last few games we have seen exactly the type of crosses that are most dangerous and lead to goals. I love the runs into the byline for the pull back which we scored from twice against Leicester and then also from Sugawara to Arma for the winner against Everton. These are the kind of crosses that score goals and I think the trend is looking good there.

The problem here is you've cherry picked the crosses that scored - if you look at those games as a whole, there weren't that many other crosses! We simply don't get the ball in the red zone enough to create enough higher xG chances - it feels a lot like we're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Also, all three of those crosses came in transition situations rather than from our PB 'style' ie drawing players out of position keeping possession at the back then bypassing the press.

I actually am a fan of PB football, I just don't think Martin is doing it well enough, as well as his well known failing to organise the defence. If you want to see a detailed analysis of a similar PB (though better!) team, read this about Ole Werner's Werder Bremen team:

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/head-coach-analysis/ole-werner-werder-bremen-202425-tactical-analysis-tactics

I should add that our possession style is actually the most extreme in the PL - shorter passes and nearly always short goal kicks. So even the top teams and coaches you mention do not play PB like Martin. They mix it up more because if you do that, you create more attacking threat, which creates defensive uncertainty, which creates space and opportunities, etc etc. 

As I've said before, nothing personal against Martin, he's just out of his depth. He's never had experience of playing in or working with the manager of a top PB team - literally, how or when could he have when he started managing while still playing?!

Edited November 5 by SWLondon Saint
Typo + clarity

[saintwbu]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I’ve watched Boscombe, Fulham, Forest, and other sides pass the fucking  ball & play a possession based game. Nearly every friggin team in the top 2 divisions play like that. Why do Lego’s fan club seem to think he’s an exception, that it either the Lego way or a big Charles Hughes type hoof ball. Despite what he thinks he hasn’t reinvented the wheel or been particularly innovative, he’s just playing a ridiculous unsustainable and boring version of what everyone else is doing better. 
 

Some of our supporters are drinking the Lego Kool-Aid

So what you’re saying is that there are 3 other mid sized teams (i’d say 4 as you forgot Brighton) who are successfully playing a possession based game in the Premier League? That seems at odds with all these esteemed pundits like Tony Cascarino, Jamie O’Hara all categorically deciding that possession based football isn’t for minnows like us, because Burnley were shit last year. 

[Zorba]

I think we all want pretty much the same thing. Nobody wants to see Pulis or Alardyce ‘esque style football but it’s not as black & white as that. I think I see it as many others do on here.

RM’s teams over-play the ball at the back.. (obviously!) This leads to mistakes as it would with any team made up of any players in this league. It’s not because our defenders are crap. If you knock the ball around for long enough, then someone’s going to take it off you.

RM also has our midfielders stuck in a loop. They have to play keep ball with the defenders without driving forward and finding our front men. How many times do we see the ball go straight back to the player it’s just come from without the midfielder looking up for the forward pass? This isn’t ‘Brave’ or “Being brave on the ball”, it is, in fact, cowardly football where you’d rather turn away from the challenge ahead than face it head on. It’s like saying your being brave by jumping in the ring with Tyson ..then running around the ropes for 3 minutes to avoid getting lumped. It’s not brave, it’s stupid. While you’re in there, you may aswell try to twat him because you’re either going to run around until you’re out of puff and trip over your own feet, or he’s gonna catch you with a haymaker and knock you out anyway!

So.. when our back 8 have all had a touch or ten each in our own half, we can move forward. Only now, we have 11 men to beat as the opposition are all bored (the same as the rest of us) and back in their own half, fully re-energised and waiting for that inevitable loose pass that leaves 7 of our back 8 on the half way line, with only Rambo to beat on the counter as the ball’s knocked over the top, while our full backs are still holding hands with their full backs.

RM’s football is boring, risky and predictable. I’m struggling to see what we are waiting for that will make any difference this season or any other season in the top flight.

RM has to be more flexible or this shit just aint gonna work.. ever!

 

[verlaine1979]

56 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

So what you’re saying is that there are 3 other mid sized teams (i’d say 4 as you forgot Brighton) who are successfully playing a possession based game in the Premier League? That seems at odds with all these esteemed pundits like Tony Cascarino, Jamie O’Hara all categorically deciding that possession based football isn’t for minnows like us, because Burnley were shit last year. 

I don't think that's what he said at all. Every team in the PL is now tidy on the ball and passes the ball around with zip and accuracy for the most part. There's just nothing clever (and plenty stupid) about our determination to do most of that passing within 20 yards of our own goal mouth. 

[franniesTache]

I'm so glad the club have encouraged some of their people to post on here and telling us we're doing wrongthink, if it wasn't for them we'd all be hoisted to the gulags and the re-education would be incredibly expensive for the club.

Instead we have people on here telling us why our eyes and opinions are wrong, and why we should learn to love Russball as the only form of the game.

Thank you stooges, we have no learned that RUSS' WAY is the only way, that we are wrong, and must come onside.

As we now know we have of course always been at war with direct football and shooting, and passing in infinite slow loops has always been our friend. Until such time of course when The Leaders tell us that we have never passed in slow infinite loops and infact we have always crossed the ball at the first opportunity.

We all of COURSE enjoy this style of football, it is in no way slow, ponderous, predictable and boring. It is in fact edge of the seat stuff, the most exciting form of the game ever played, and the fact that we regularly clock less shots on goals than fingers on one hand is down to the fact that the stats people, and our own brains/eyes, are too exciting to register the hundreds of blistering attacks and shots that we have every game.

By the way Stooges is there a compound you can recommend we live in? And a proper way to address Martin? Maybe even a name to call ourselves so we can identify as group in our love for that which our betters know is good for us?

[verlaine1979]

4 hours ago, RTW Saint said:

 Its pretty clear that most of the people who write on here have not been involved in coaching at any kind of level, which doesn't make their opinion irrelevant but does seem to mean that they fail to understand that the possession statistic is not a vanity points scoring exercise, but actually a measure of defensive solidity in the game.

Please, oh wise one, use this superior coaching knowledge to explain how the team with the fourth highest average possession in the league also has the fourth highest goals against and the second highest expected goals against?