Russell Martin

[AlexLaw76]

2 years into a 10 year plan. As we are on course to be the worst premier league side in history, just think of what other records we can acquire in the next 8 years

[Badger]

44 minutes ago, saintant said:

Over on The Ugly Inside they're saying Russ is safe because he's part of a 10 year plan and that comes direct from Dragan. If so it again proves the incompetence of our owners - I mean, who makes a 10 year plan for a football team these days unless it's the owners of a lower league team that have ambitions to reach the Premier League? You can't have a 10 year plan if you're already in the Premier League - maybe start with a survival plan and see where that goes. Still, might as well extend Russ boys contract to ten years and be done with it. Happy days.

If RM is here for 10 years then I'll be gone long before he sees his decade out with us. 

Even if I'm still breathing at the end of that period I won't be travelling to St Mary's to watch our CB passing it between themselves, and falling apart at a moments notice. Might be time to start watching Gloucester play rugby more often. (They've lost the last two matches after being ahead at HT so it might not be such a culture shock after all)

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, SWLondon Saint said:

I always thought that if Ralph had stayed, we would have stayed up. Double his total, say 24 from 28 and we'd have needed 13+ from the last 10. Very doable. Instead we got the Beavis and Butthead show for the rest of the season.

In contrast to this season, it's actually hard to imagine any manager doing much worse than 1 point from 8 games, including several of the supposed easiest games of the season - Forest, Ipswich, Leicester at home.

Agree with the overall post but with Ralph you’ve got to look at the run since the West Ham cup game the previous season, and it was dismal form bar a little rally in early September beating Chelsea and Leicester. He looked fed up and with the lack of investment, and then the right investment by Rasmus/Shields I could understand why. Rumours that he badly fell out with a number of senior players, Jan being one of them, as well. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

If that’s true then SR were morons for agreeing to such a lunatic contract when they hired him. It’s not like they were hiring a hotshot like Emery. He was a Championship nonentity. 

You can criticise SR for a lot, but agreeing promotion would trigger a new deal isn’t one of them. It’s not really a  lunatic contract provided the break clause is the same. If it is, it’s basically just a pay rise to reflect he’s now managing a premier league club (badly). 

[Gloucester Saint]

50 minutes ago, Badger said:

If RM is here for 10 years then I'll be gone long before he sees his decade out with us. 

Even if I'm still breathing at the end of that period I won't be travelling to St Mary's to watch our CB passing it between themselves, and falling apart at a moments notice. Might be time to start watching Gloucester play rugby more often. (They've lost the last two matches after being ahead at HT so it might not be such a culture shock after all)

They even have the equivalent of a 9-0 defeat https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/19081/13133766/gallagher-premiership-northampton-saints-crush-gloucester-rugby-90-0-in-record-breaking-scoreline although there were some specific circumstances!

Kingsholm has a good atmosphere especially when Bristol or Bath are in town and whilst their league form is little better than Saints, they did win silverware last season. I’m keeping tabs on Cheltenham Town this season. Natives slightly happier after their win at Colchester and the Cowleys, only slightly happier though with Michael Flynn.

Edited 21 October, 2024 by Gloucester Saint

[SWLondon Saint]

8 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Agree with the overall post but with Ralph you’ve got to look at the run since the West Ham cup game the previous season, and it was dismal form bar a little rally in early September beating Chelsea and Leicester. He looked fed up and with the lack of investment, and then the right investment by Rasmus/Shields I could understand why. Rumours that he badly fell out with a number of senior players, Jan being one of them, as well. 

Yeah, that's all fair. I remember Ralph looked so worn out after one game I wondered if he'd quit. The team desperately needed a proper forward and reinforcements and wasn't that the summer of all the crap Man City castoffs?

[hypochondriac]

Personally I think if we don't get rid of him over the next three to four games then we might as well let him relegate us and have another go next year. 

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, SWLondon Saint said:

Yeah, that's all fair. I remember Ralph looked so worn out after one game I wondered if he'd quit. The team desperately needed a proper forward and reinforcements and wasn't that the summer of all the crap Man City castoffs?

Yep, Lavia wasn’t crap but was made of glass, Edozie jury is out on, Bazanu definitely 💩and that 11 year old left back who hasn’t been seen for two years. Shields was as much a charlatan as Rasmus, surprised they didn’t get on and compare skinny jeans and vape flavours. The lack of a striker after betting the farm on Ramos/Gapko was astonishing after AA hadn’t worked out the previous summer.

[Turkish]

11 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

They even have the equivalent of a 9-0 defeat https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/19081/13133766/gallagher-premiership-northampton-saints-crush-gloucester-rugby-90-0-in-record-breaking-scoreline although there were some specific circumstances!

Kingsholm has a good atmosphere especially when Bristol or Bath are in town and whilst their league form is little better than Saints, they did win silverware last season. I’m keeping tabs on Cheltenham Town this season. Natives slightly happier after their win at Colchester and the Cowleys, only slightly happier though with Michael Flynn.

you wanna try following Harrogate Town pal. Daddies boy Simon Weaver in his 15th season in charge. The smallest club in the football league, playing conference North 5 years ago midtable finish last season yet still fans moan about him

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 hours ago, SWLondon Saint said:

Yeah, that's all fair. I remember Ralph looked so worn out after one game I wondered if he'd quit. The team desperately needed a proper forward and reinforcements and wasn't that the summer of all the crap Man City castoffs?

SR came across as smug, when they indicated that we'd be getting a forward in, if not two. I believe they were also prepping for getting shot of Adams.

Instead, we got no one up front, brought in kids and moved on Romeu.

Deprived of firepower, Ralph also had to adjust with Selles on board. No guarantee he would have turned it round. But the investment didn't solve the issues, and he's had more PL points than any of his successors.

Edited 21 October, 2024 by Holmes_and_Watson

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Personally I think if we don't get rid of him over the next three to four games then we might as well let him relegate us and have another go next year. 

It’s how you go down though, although we clearly will. 20 point plus from now and a bit of spirit gives you hope. 8 points and Derby’s record - I don’t think the club recovers from that for the foreseeable. Right now, I cannot see us winning a single PL game unless it’s a total fluke.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Is 10 years long enough for the players to learn to play Russball effectively?

 Not if they don’t want to.

[Gloucester Saint]

17 minutes ago, Turkish said:

you wanna try following Harrogate Town pal. Daddies boy Simon Weaver in his 15th season in charge. The smallest club in the football league, playing conference North 5 years ago midtable finish last season yet still fans moan about him

I saw their cup win at Torquay, a club they’ve effectively traded places with albeit Conference North and South. They are doing well though - FGR went down with a massive budget last season, although Duncan Ferguson replaced by Deeney as a manager was never going to work. Cotterill as manager now. Carlisle second bottom with new and wealthy owners, Morecambe might get rooted in last. Up for sale and a whole new squad. 

Edited 21 October, 2024 by Gloucester Saint

[derry]

The team is dysfunctional under Martin. It seems that the whole game is based on ball possession however no thought seems to be given to what we do when our opponents have the ball. We all know how Leicester play but we did nothing to stop  or disrupt them. When Fatawu came on we knew he was going to run down the line and try to get behind us especially as he had pulled us apart last season. Did we do anything? No we just gifted him the room to receive the ball from midfield and run at us. Fraser trying to run alongside and Manning just behind didn't stop him. 

Firstly we should have been ruthlessly slamming the door on him. Firstly Taylor at Left Back, that tidied that up. Then what to do about him. The quickest player was Sulemana, no thanks not for that. I would have put on Adam Armstrong just to forget about playing but get up Fatawu really tight and battle it out with him. Leave Manning in front of Taylor just with the job of blocking him off and supporting. Taylor can be the final block if he tries to come inside. It needed us right up him not standing off. For God's sake Smallbone shouldn't even be a substitute. Put Sulemana up next to Onuachu as high up the pitch as possible as an out ball and to obstruct the centre backs playing out. Stick Ugochuckwu tight on Winks again to mark and disrupt with Aribo and Downes  together. That was the time to change and get stuck in all over the field and disrupt Leicester.

Smallbone in stroll mode doesn't cut it. If we haven't got the ball he won't win it.  We needed physicality and to face up and stamp on Leicester. Martin's possession obsession isn't going to be anything but cosmetic and flatters to deceive. The goals didn't come from that it was Manning and KWP getting good crosses in.

 

Edited 21 October, 2024 by derry

[Whitey Grandad]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Personally I think if we don't get rid of him over the next three to four games then we might as well let him relegate us and have another go next year. 

I don’t think I could stand another year and a half of sleepwalking Russball.

[derry]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I don’t think I could stand another year and a half of sleepwalking Russball.

Agreed. It's all a bloody big con. We need a proper football manager not a one trick pony obsessive.

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I don’t think I could stand another year and a half of sleepwalking Russball.

Yes but if we make a Nathan Jones type appointment and boot him out after a few months it would make getting rid pointless. All about who we get in I suppose, hopefully someone who can have a go in the championship as well as the prem. 

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Yes but if we make a Nathan Jones type appointment and boot him out after a few months it would make getting rid pointless. All about who we get in I suppose, hopefully someone who can have a go in the championship as well as the prem. 

Indeed. Any manager who knows his onions.

[adrian lord]

On 05/10/2024 at 19:27, adrian lord said:

Everton (H) or Wolves (A) will be the guillotine games.

Sticking with this prediction. 

[Turkish]

14 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

I saw their cup win at Torquay, a club they’ve effectively traded places with albeit Conference North and South. They are doing well though - FGR went down with a massive budget last season, although Duncan Ferguson replaced by Deeney as a manager was never going to work. Carlisle second bottom with new and wealthy owners, Morecambe might get rooted in last. Up for sale and a whole new squad. 

Morcambe have always been a disaster waiting to happen giving the same manager to job 3 times in 6 years. That guys is Derek Adams in his third spell as manager after two pretty unremarkable previous stints. My mates son was in a first year pro contract at Bradford when he went there from Morcombe 3 years ago, Bradford had half a dozen decent players around 19-21 years old and he released some, told the rest they weren't part of his plans and brought in a load of old players he'd worked with before. After finishing 12th in league two he said something like he's the best manager around at this level despite all the fans and players thinking he's a massive cock. Given his record of failure and arrogance i'm pretty sure he's on Rasmus's radar.

Edited 21 October, 2024 by Turkish

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Morcambe have always been a disaster waiting to happen giving the same manager to job 3 times in 6 years. That guys is Derek Adams in his third spell as manager after two pretty unremarkable previous stints. My mates son was in a first year pro contract at Bradford when he went there from Morcombe 3 years ago, Bradford had half a dozen decent players around 19-21 years old and he released some, told the rest they weren't part of his plans and brought in a load of old players he'd worked with before. After finishing 12th in league two he said something like he's the best manager around at this level despite all the fans and players thinking he's a massive cock. Given his record of failure and arrogance i'm pretty sure he's on Rasmus's radar.

Mixed views on him at Plymouth and pissed on his chips at Ross County with the comments there about the standard. Bradford are a mystery to me, very big stadium for that level, 14k STHs, should be L1 top 10 minimum. Not sure he likes skinny jeans 👖 or vapes so a Turkish third division manager he’s seen with Goztepe in the Turkish cups who will drink apple tea all day is probably more Rasmus’s bag. 

[Wade Garrett]

7 minutes ago, adrian lord said:

Sticking with this prediction. 

Be too late by then.

[chuz]

4 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

If that’s true then SR were morons for agreeing to such a lunatic contract when they hired him. It’s not like they were hiring a hotshot like Emery. He was a Championship nonentity. All they had to do was include a one time bonus for promotion, similar to the bonus clause to Hughes for keeping us up. 

To be fair (and personally I'm not a fan) to SR, it's a pretty standard clause which - if it happens rewards the manager with a (nearer to) Premier League salary.  If promotion happens it rewards the manager with a new deal. 

Ipswich did the same

https://www.itfc.co.uk/news/2024/may/30/kieran-mckenna-signs-new-four-year-deal/ 

There's a few other myths about sacked manager's contracts: it's very rare for someone to get "paid off" the entire contract in one go when sacked (unless you were a Chelsea manager during the Abramovic era) - instead managers continue to get paid until they get another job - when the payment stops.   

Most clubs are used to paying two (or more) managers at any one time (due to still paying a sacked one). 

[SWLondon Saint]

13 minutes ago, Turkish said:

 After finishing 12th in league two he said something like he's the best manager around at this level despite all the fans and players thinking he's a massive cock. Given his record of failure and arrogance i'm pretty sure he's on Rasmus's radar.

I mean, I get it that a certain level of self belief is necessary in any profession. But holy crap we seem to have got the David Brent style zero self-awareness types lately 😑

[Dark Munster]

6 minutes ago, chuz said:

To be fair (and personally I'm not a fan) to SR, it's a pretty standard clause which - if it happens rewards the manager with a (nearer to) Premier League salary.  If promotion happens it rewards the manager with a new deal. 

Ipswich did the same

https://www.itfc.co.uk/news/2024/may/30/kieran-mckenna-signs-new-four-year-deal/ 

There's a few other myths about sacked manager's contracts: it's very rare for someone to get "paid off" the entire contract in one go when sacked (unless you were a Chelsea manager during the Abramovic era) - instead managers continue to get paid until they get another job - when the payment stops.   

Most clubs are used to paying two (or more) managers at any one time (due to still paying a sacked one). 

Ipswich strolled to promotion with a far weaker squad. And their manager the year before got them promoted from L1. So a completely different situation.

And I'm not talking about the money. If the contract gave him a pay raise upon promotion, no problem. But It extended his contact by a year (or was it two?), which is an extra year payoff when he gets sacked.

As I said, a clause that either gave him a promotion bonus, or a pay raise, is fine. Not an extension after scraping promotion by the lottery, with one of the strongest squads in that division.

Edited 21 October, 2024 by Dark Munster

[Turkish]

25 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Mixed views on him at Plymouth and pissed on his chips at Ross County with the comments there about the standard. Bradford are a mystery to me, very big stadium for that level, 14k STHs, should be L1 top 10 minimum. Not sure he likes skinny jeans 👖 or vapes so a Turkish third division manager he’s seen with Goztepe in the Turkish cups who will drink apple tea all day is probably more Rasmus’s bag. 

Bradford are on paper a bigger club than Bournemouth and Brentford. The City easy big enough to support a Championship club. the Bradford area is over 1/2 million I guess going against it is it’s a massive shit hole of a place, very high immigration, rife with gangs, drugs and crime and doesn’t have the football heritage other cities of a similar size have. An old mill town with very little going for it these days 

[chuz]

2 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

Ipswich strolled to promotion with a far weaker squad. And their manager the year before got them promoted from L1. So a completely different situation.

And I'm not talking about the money. If the contract gave him a pay raise upon promotion, no problem. But It extended his contact by a year (or was it two?), which is an extra year payoff when he gets sacked.

As I said, a clause that either gave him a promotion bonus, or a pay raise, is fine. Not an extension after scraping promotion by the lottery, with one of the strongest squads in that division.

Don't disagree with any of what you are saying, but I'm aware that most if not all Championship Managers will have a similar clause in their contract. It would have been inserted when he first signed and said something along the lines of "In the event of promotion the club has to offer him a contract on a minimum of XX percent more for a minimum of the same length as the first contract"

I'd actually say the fact the second contract was not longer than three years shows doubts at board level about him.  Had we marched to the Championship title with more than 100 points I suspect the second contract might have been longer. 

Not saying the situation is the same as Ipswich at all and clearly McKenna did a brilliant job at Ipswich and thoroughly deserved the new contract - but these clauses are pretty standard...

 

[Gloucester Saint]

8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Bradford are on paper a bigger club than Bournemouth and Brentford. The City easy big enough to support a Championship club. the Bradford area is over 1/2 million I guess going against it is it’s a massive shit hole of a place, very high immigration, rife with gangs, drugs and crime and doesn’t have the football heritage other cities of a similar size have. An old mill town with very little going for it these days 

Agree, and what a contrast between the middle class areas like Saltaire and Bingley, with Bradford itself. Friendly people but as a place rough as a badger’s arse. 

Like to see them doing better in the football, down here to play at Cheltenham tomorrow night.

Edited 21 October, 2024 by Gloucester Saint

[sfc4prem]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Personally I think if we don't get rid of him over the next three to four games then we might as well let him relegate us and have another go next year. 

Agreed. I reckon he eventually might be able to build something decent here.

[stknowle]

1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

It’s how you go down though, although we clearly will. 20 point plus from now and a bit of spirit gives you hope. 8 points and Derby’s record - I don’t think the club recovers from that for the foreseeable. Right now, I cannot see us winning a single PL game unless it’s a total fluke.

Hate to tell you this but Derby got 11.  As pathetic as it is 8 points looks a fucking tough ask but the extra 4 points required to avoid that record feel insurmountable with the current set up.

Edited 21 October, 2024 by stknowle

[Wiggles31]

Disappointed he’s still here. What in fucks name do SR see? He cannot manage a game and the stupid goal kicks ffs. Everything feels so self inflicted. Depressing. 

[Wade Garrett]

 I don’t think we will win a single league game this season whilst Martin is in charge.

Hopefully, there’s stuff going on in the background but I’m not holding my breath.

[Football Special]

3 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

 I don’t think we will win a single league game this season whilst Martin is in charge.

Hopefully, there’s stuff going on in the background but I’m not holding my breath.

A season of no wins where each time fans say "I think they'll give him the next game" and before we know it we're in May.

I'd still take that with a Carabao cup win though. 

[Convict Colony]

The elephant in the room is that SR's aim of the 10yr plan is to make us better.....

[Pamplemousse]

All well and good having a 10 year plan but on the flip side, if we were doing magically well, other teams would come knocking and let's be honest, Martin would leave in a heartbeat, as he did Swansea for us.

We need a succession plan and hopefully there are managers we are talking to (via their agents) who we know are interested.

[FarehamSaintJames]

The fact that there are so many on here lapping up Jim White and Talksport and everything they’re saying is funny in itself, and also a little disappointing.

[Wade Garrett]

Just now, FarehamSaintJames said:

The fact that there are so many on here lapping up Jim White and Talksport and everything they’re saying is funny in itself, and also a little disappointing.

They make it sound like we should be grateful to have Russell Martin.  He must have a lot of mates there.

[Mr X]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Personally I think if we don't get rid of him over the next three to four games then we might as well let him relegate us and have another go next year. 

Are you suggesting have another go next year with Martin as our manager? 

[FarehamSaintJames]

You get rid of Russell Martin and it creates a new problem. Sure it’s not good at the moment but there’s certainly much worse things at the club.

Board direction and ambition is dubious at this stage, staffing and scouting is bizarre.

Gut feeling is Russell Martin will get until the next international break. 
I don’t think many fans we want to see him gone, but games against Wolves, City, Everton and Stoke all in this next band of games - failure to win two of the league games would scream game over to me.

[Wade Garrett]

3 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

You get rid of Russell Martin and it creates a new problem. Sure it’s not good at the moment but there’s certainly much worse things at the club.

Board direction and ambition is dubious at this stage, staffing and scouting is bizarre.

Gut feeling is Russell Martin will get until the next international break. 
I don’t think many fans we want to see him gone, but games against Wolves, City, Everton and Stoke all in this next band of games - failure to win two of the league games would scream game over to me.

You’re having a fucking laugh mush.

[Whitey Grandad]

34 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

The elephant in the room is that SR's aim of the 10yr plan is to make us better.....

But first they’ve got to make us worse.

If it ain’t broke, break it.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Dark Munster said:

And I'm not talking about the money. If the contract gave him a pay raise upon promotion, no problem. But It extended his contact by a year (or was it two?), which is an extra year payoff when he gets sacked.

If the settlement figure is a year when you’re sacked, doesn’t really matter if you’re on a 3 year contract or a 10 year one. In the grand scheme of things I doubt the financial implications of sacking him now under this contract or now had he not been given one, will be much different. 
 

I don’t know why anyone is getting hung up over this. Getting promoted deserves a new contract, I’d be amazed if there’s many managers who don’t have it written into their initial contract. Those that don’t should get a new agent pretty prompto

[Harry_SFC]

8 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If the settlement figure is a year when you’re sacked, doesn’t really matter if you’re on a 3 year contract or a 10 year one. In the grand scheme of things I doubt the financial implications of sacking him now under this contract or now had he not been given one, will be much different. 
 

I don’t know why anyone is getting hung up over this. Getting promoted deserves a new contract, I’d be amazed if there’s many managers who don’t have it written into their initial contract. Those that don’t should get a new agent pretty prompto

Agreed. He signed a new deal but it only added a year on as he still had two left, so not a huge difference. As you say, basically just a pay rise as we got promoted. 

[hypochondriac]

49 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Are you suggesting have another go next year with Martin as our manager? 

I'm saying that if we keep Martin to the point that relegation becomes inevitable, on balance I'd probably prefer to have him for another year in the championship given that these are his players and they all know his style of play. 

I reckon we sack him in the next few anyway and I'd probably get rid now whilst we still have a small chance of survival. 

Edited 21 October, 2024 by hypochondriac

[Gloucester Saint]

2 hours ago, stknowle said:

Hate to tell you this but Derby got 11.  As pathetic as it is 8 points looks a fucking tough ask but the extra 4 points required to avoid that record feel insurmountable with the current set up.

Sorry, I meant that 8 would be less than Derby’s record of 11. As would 7, 9, 10 etc. but yes, 8 feels difficult and 12 or more quite challenging as it stands. 

[NewYorkSaint]

Incredible reading some of these comments. Has everyone forgotten how amazing last season's unbeaten run felt? sure that was championship... but it also felt like we had something no other team had.   I agree Russball can be scary. But it's also exhilarating when it works. So long as he has the support of the playing room, I think we should stick.  You have to remember we've been seriously unlucky so far on this run, including the horrific refereeing of the last game.   When things turn, the exact same playing style is going to feel  v v different.   

Saturday second half was agony.   But our day will come, and maybe sooner than the gloomy gang here imagines.

[whiteleySaint30]

2 minutes ago, NewYorkSaint said:

Incredible reading some of these comments. Has everyone forgotten how amazing last season's unbeaten run felt? sure that was championship... but it also felt like we had something no other team had.   I agree Russball can be scary. But it's also exhilarating when it works. So long as he has the support of the playing room, I think we should stick.  You have to remember we've been seriously unlucky so far on this run, including the horrific refereeing of the last game.   When things turn, the exact same playing style is going to feel  v v different.   

Saturday second half was agony.   But our day will come, and maybe sooner than the gloomy gang here imagines.

What planet are you on? 

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, whiteleySaint30 said:

What planet are you on? 

One where a "playing room" offers support.

[Whitey Grandad]

13 minutes ago, NewYorkSaint said:

Incredible reading some of these comments. Has everyone forgotten how amazing last season's unbeaten run felt? sure that was championship... but it also felt like we had something no other team had.   I agree Russball can be scary. But it's also exhilarating when it works. So long as he has the support of the playing room, I think we should stick.  You have to remember we've been seriously unlucky so far on this run, including the horrific refereeing of the last game.   When things turn, the exact same playing style is going to feel  v v different.   

Saturday second half was agony.   But our day will come, and maybe sooner than the gloomy gang here imagines.

In my case I wasn’t amazed at all. In the football world as a whole it was nothing special.

[Colinjb]

14 minutes ago, NewYorkSaint said:

Incredible reading some of these comments. Has everyone forgotten how amazing last season's unbeaten run felt? sure that was championship... but it also felt like we had something no other team had.   I agree Russball can be scary. But it's also exhilarating when it works. So long as he has the support of the playing room, I think we should stick.  You have to remember we've been seriously unlucky so far on this run, including the horrific refereeing of the last game.   When things turn, the exact same playing style is going to feel  v v different.   

Saturday second half was agony.   But our day will come, and maybe sooner than the gloomy gang here imagines.

The phrase your are looking for is 'f*cking abject.'

Christ, what are they putting in the water over there?