Russell Martin

[Wade Garrett]

11 hours ago, Oldandtired said:

The crap that comes out of this  man's mouth. We're on a journey alright, and with him steering most can see where the destination is.

He’s a snake oil salesman.  What a load of old tosh.

Can the board please sack him.  Giving him the Leicester game is wasting valuable time that someone who knows what they’re doing to get to know his new squad.  It will also be throwing more points away.

Delaying the inevitable.

[Kermitzasaint]

9 hours ago, gio1saints said:

So, if you are right and it’s not or only partly because Russell is “ out of his depth” why the hysteria when our unproven EPL Manager  and “ strong championship level” squad are essentially where every bookie and every other saints fan thought they’d be? It’s a self righteous wankathon of I told you so on here atm…
 

But hey ho. Saints will try to get Potter then told to eff off with a smirk and end up with either an ex premier league superstar fancies being a gaffer, and/or a German Portuguese or Italian coach who is meant to be the next coming of the Lord football-wise that nobody has heard of before or the even less EPL unproven in management Adam Lallana as a caretaker. 

All infinitely better choices of course and all instantly “wrong” for the I told you sos on here. And all, indeed, offering far greater chances of staying up & playing good non boring not defensive but super tight high scoring football than sticking with the Antichrist RM. Guaranteed. That is if they last the 7 match probation. 
 

Just hope that the new Manager can teach our forwards which is the goal and remind them they are there to score or even shoot from, say penalties or three yards out. 
 

Hopefully new manager will get Saints to play better, proper, football( no GK to CB passing allowed) only proper goal kicks for TP to fight for every time - oh and the rule about no shots for forwards to be reversed plus the one about no long balls or crosses also.
New Manager will need to get a few of those motivational posters on the home changing room wall saying “ get it in the mixer “ or the cunts cannot score from Row Z”.
Id imagine a fines system in place - if we hit more than say four passes before we get into last third everyone gets fined£1000 each so we end up playing proper direct attacking football minimal touches ~ not that fancy passing it around shit like last year which obvs don’t work at EPL unless you are a “ good” club, like most of them are.
 

Maybe one day too we would be a “ good “ club though not sure how we are ever going to get there trying to replicate 1980’s Wimbledon FC. 

Congratulations, your post was more tedious than Russball. 

It kills you that Russell Martin has been found out doesn't it. 

[Wade Garrett]

7 hours ago, gio1saints said:

I’d stick.If you want to get good at something best is to learn the hard way.Want to stay up and prosper Dragan well, you  have to be good - not just a EPL survival specialist.  PS which is what we used to be btw. 

Play these EPL teams, learn from them get battered at times by then but still heads up competing and the second half of season return fixtures use what we learned first time out from enough hard lessons to start winning games and those 3 points. 
 

There’s no fast way. First half of season is essentially back to school.
 

The Best managers ( see How close Arteta was to losing his job back then..) somehow get continuity. Despite fan mood changing by the last result. 

 

I say they Just have to keep playing - and yeah getting battered- but have the right attitude to learn learn learn and never give up. 

 

Longer answer ( don’t read if you get bored by such stuff as this) : 

I want Saints to be one of those “good” teams that can play differing styles of football, all at the very highest level. Long ball or  high press or PBF or full press or low block always great set pieces with the best work rate strikers who are deadly, ie they fucking score - defenders who can defend- and attack-  class mf’s. But wishing for that is not going to make them appear next week EPL ready. The squad for this year is largely set give or take. 
 

Can they play better? Can they be more motivated? Ideally I’d like them to be both but I don’t sense a real issue with motivation- just play style and it’s execution plus a certain dark resignation once the first goal goes in has set in. 

The play styles to be unpredictable and to change as many times as is necessary as per opponent and in play/match as often as manager sees fit. So they don’t know what to expect unlike now. 
 

Back to realism though : Far as I can tell two years ago Saints were shit at EVERY style of football versus EVERY type of opponent and our version of mixing it up in-play involved swopping the Lucazade for red bull at half time. And team morale was “ all for one and all for one” it was terrible and what we have now is miles better believe it or not catastrophe theorists aside. 

Last year we got quite good at a certain type of football and towards the end even showed ability to mix it up somewhat tactically. 

This year that certain style and even the mixing it up have all been not working. The certain style of play has not been good enough- largely imo because the fuckers who were meant to score for us are all useless atm - and our defence seems to have a three goals conceded minimum written into contracts for  every time we enter the field of play despite a bloody good goalie (imo). 
 

A new Manager is not going to sign five new quality starting players to join Tyler, Aaron, mateus and err THB make that 7 new oven ready decent EPL players. He’s going to have to coach-out all the bad stuff and coach-in the better stuff - all in a matter of weeks because if we are ditching the boss after seven games after what he gave us last year the new guy has got zero credit in his bank of saints fan goodwill. Sure as eggs is eggs unless we have got, say at least 7 /8 points from seven games ( relegation form still for latter part of season and from where we start from - but better than what we have atm) the fans will turn on him too.
I’d give him a 60/40 against chance which means fair chance we’d need another new manager come January. That one will probably be Adam Lallana until end of season though so rest easy everyone will be happy with that lol.😂 

So, getting rid of RM, aside from being effing expensive will not be the only managerial change for us this season is a fair bet. So why go to all that traumatic drama and we look like clowns charade when we can stick with the Manager and give him this season ( and maybe the next if we go down?) Eh stupid idea is it, terrible notion is it? I don’t think so. 

Seems sensible longer term planning to me especially if by end of year we are down but we sold Tyler for £75m to fund our championship campaign. 

Fucking hell, is this a full-time job for you?

[StrangelyBrown]

I heard something interesting yesterday on a podcast - I think they hit the nail on the head.

Talking about Kieran McKenna the comment was that he's starting to be successful at Ipswich because he always puts the needs of the club first rather than his own philosophy. Whereas other managers such as Kompany and now Russell Martin put their own reputation first and blindly stick to their philosophy hoping that even if they are unsuccessful they will be known for their philosophy and it will enable them to go on to something better.

This certainly fits with RMs comments about the journey he and his disciples have been on.

Sadly, RM isn't about Southampton Football Club he is about Russell Martin.

Edited October 8 by StrangelyBrown

[gio1saints]

10 hours ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

 

Sadly, he's not learning. He can't seem to see that in the premier league everything is played at a faster pace, the players are fitter, the opposition's press is tighter and our players aren't skilled enough to play the type of possession football he seems to desire. He talks a good talk but he's really struggling.

How long does he have? Leicester we draw, Man City we lose, Everton we draw...then it's practically all over. We need someone soon. Saints manager recruitment seems to have been totally crap or inspired. Let's hope they can find a Poch, Koeman or Ralph. Potter/Moyes - would they accept a challenge?

Respect your POV but I do not agree. 

If we only look at the results, individual errors by players and tactical fuck ups by RM in certain matches to date ~ yeah the case is pretty clear. 

- BUT - Not learning and making a bunch of definitively bad tactical decisions or having a brain fart whilst taking a penalty or letting flukey or offside goals are not the same thing as not learning.
 

For example, six months ago we might have gone to Arsenal and got beat 9-0 playing a more open formation. How many times have you seen Saints start a big lone striker up front under RM???? Never under RM actually. 

Our tactics on Saturday actually worked for the most part. He, rightly, understood that we needed to be more solid defensively and adjusted team & formation according. Even TP got on the pitch and played alright! 
 

The possibility of a hit and run away win at the on form second best team in the country was a decent possibility. 
 

If you don’t agree that RM ~ and team - did show learning, did show tactical flexibility, did show ability to amend the supposed tactical dogma by the way he set up the team for that match - fine- but “ incapable of learning” is hopelessly off the mark wrt to RM. 

And there’s been evidence in more of the matches than I care to recollect that certain new things are working - Aaron is working, Tyler is working, Mateus is working, THB is working, jeez even Adam Lallana is working when he’s on pitch. 

Call him a slow learner if you need to but inability to learn is NOT one of his, and our players, weaknesses. The players you see that are bit by bit developing - and showing quality- on the pitch might just turn into a team one of these games and surprise you yet. All ( apart from THB) absent from last years teams. 
 

Extreme reluctance to detour from his Golden Path - yup, but inability to learn, to change it up, try new things, new players ~ and no evidence to show it either ~ that’s simply not true of Russell Martin. 

Edited October 8 by gio1saints

[Weston Super Saint]

17 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Respect your POV but I do not agree. 

If we only look at the results, individual errors by players and tactical fuck ups by RM in certain matches to date ~ yeah the case is pretty clear. 

- BUT - Not learning and making a bunch of definitively bad tactical decisions or having a brain fart whilst taking a penalty or letting flukey or offside goals are not the same thing as not learning.
 

For example, six months ago we might have gone to Arsenal and got beat 9-0 playing a more open formation. How many times have you seen Saints start a big lone striker up front under RM???? Never under RM actually. 

Our tactics on Saturday actually worked for the most part. He, rightly, understood that we needed to be more solid defensively and adjusted team & formation according. Even TP got on the pitch and played alright! 
 

The possibility of a hit and run away win at the on form second best team in the country was a decent possibility. 
 

If you don’t agree that RM ~ and team - did show learning, did show tactical flexibility, did show ability to amend the supposed tactical dogma by the way he set up the team for that match - fine- but “ incapable of learning” is hopelessly off the mark wrt to RM. 

And there’s been evidence in more of the matches than I care to recollect that certain new things are working - Aaron is working, Tyler is working, Mateus is working, THB is working, jeez even Adam Lallana is working when he’s on pitch. 

Call him a slow learner if you need to but inability to learn is NOT one of his, and our players, weaknesses. The players you see that are bit by bit developing - and showing quality- on the pitch might just turn into a team one of these games and surprise you yet. All ( apart from THB) absent from last years teams. 
 

Extreme reluctance to detour from his Golden Path - yup, but inability to learn, to change it up, try new things, new players ~ and no evidence to show it either ~ that’s simply not true of Russell Martin. 

Does this mean they've all got over being traumatised at the beginning of the season?

You don't half spout some bollocks, you and Russell are kindred spirits and welcome to each other.

[Charlie Wayman]

30 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Respect your POV but I do not agree. 

If we only look at the results, individual errors by players and tactical fuck ups by RM in certain matches to date ~ yeah the case is pretty clear. 

- BUT - Not learning and making a bunch of definitively bad tactical decisions or having a brain fart whilst taking a penalty or letting flukey or offside goals are not the same thing as not learning.
 

For example, six months ago we might have gone to Arsenal and got beat 9-0 playing a more open formation. How many times have you seen Saints start a big lone striker up front under RM???? Never under RM actually. 

Our tactics on Saturday actually worked for the most part. He, rightly, understood that we needed to be more solid defensively and adjusted team & formation according. Even TP got on the pitch and played alright! 
 

The possibility of a hit and run away win at the on form second best team in the country was a decent possibility. 
 

If you don’t agree that RM ~ and team - did show learning, did show tactical flexibility, did show ability to amend the supposed tactical dogma by the way he set up the team for that match - fine- but “ incapable of learning” is hopelessly off the mark wrt to RM. 

And there’s been evidence in more of the matches than I care to recollect that certain new things are working - Aaron is working, Tyler is working, Mateus is working, THB is working, jeez even Adam Lallana is working when he’s on pitch. 

Call him a slow learner if you need to but inability to learn is NOT one of his, and our players, weaknesses. The players you see that are bit by bit developing - and showing quality- on the pitch might just turn into a team one of these games and surprise you yet. All ( apart from THB) absent from last years teams. 
 

Extreme reluctance to detour from his Golden Path - yup, but inability to learn, to change it up, try new things, new players ~ and no evidence to show it either ~ that’s simply not true of Russell Martin. 

Gobbledegook! Where is the improvement in terms of results and points on the board if as you exclaim, he is learning? 

[Mr X]

4 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Gobbledegook! Where is the improvement in terms of results and points on the board if as you exclaim, he is learning? 

The only thing Russ is learning is how to lose games and turn a lead into a loss in record breaking time by sticking to a unrealistic philosophy, looks like we are sticking with him till the bitter end as now would be the sensible time to get rid, the goodwill towards him will be gone for next season in the championship and where do the club go from there  

[gio1saints]

17 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Gobbledegook! Where is the improvement in terms of results and points on the board if as you exclaim, he is learning? 

If that is your criteria for proof of inability to learn ~ results and points on the board, you are right Charlie. 
 

My point is that “ Inability to learn” and how many points we have hit after 7 games are not the same thing. 
Many sticks to hit RM with this season- if hit him is what you desire - but, “ inability to learn” is not one of them. 
 

[gio1saints]

7 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Fucking hell, is this a full-time job for you?

I wish it were Wade. I could give up managing this poxy football club then! 😂

[Saint in Paradise]

I seem to remember that the other day I read an article saying that a couple of clubs in addition

to Saints might look at Stephen Holland. I am unable to express a conclusion about how keen I would

be with him but I am sure some on here will give their opinion. 😀

[Winnersaint]

1 hour ago, StrangelyBrown said:

I heard something interesting yesterday on a podcast - I think they hit the nail on the head.

Talking about Kieran McKenna the comment was that he's starting to be successful at Ipswich because he always puts the needs of the club first rather than his own philosophy. Whereas other managers such as Kompany and now Russell Martin put their own reputation first and blindly stick to their philosophy hoping that even if they are unsuccessful they will be known for their philosophy and it will enable them to go on to something better.

This certainly fits with RMs comments about the journey he and his disciples have been on.

Sadly, RM isn't about Southampton Football Club he is about Russell Martin.

Can't help feeling sometimes that if he were made of chocolate he'd eat himself.

[gio1saints]

1 hour ago, Mr X said:

The only thing Russ is learning is how to lose games and turn a lead into a loss in record breaking time by sticking to a unrealistic philosophy, looks like we are sticking with him till the bitter end as now would be the sensible time to get rid, the goodwill towards him will be gone for next season in the championship and where do the club go from there  

I think he is giving clear signs that he is more flexible than many give him credit for. Indeed far more flexible than during our Championship season. And do you know why? Because we were not getting beaten every week. The opposite. So there was little incentive or little need to change. Last season, until the last few matches, your point about his unrealistic philosophy ie extremely rigid focus on one style of play alone - held more water, but this season that is objectively NOT the case. 

If we do go down, and IF he stays, who better than a manager with relevant play off winning experience to get us back up? 

Edited October 8 by gio1saints

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, gio1saints said:

If we do go down, and IF he stays, ...........

Should he stay for the season there would be no 'if' about going down.

[coalman]

For me, I look at the fixture and don't see where our next point comes from. Not just that but we're close to being unwatchable at the moment.

Any team playing us knows they simply need to press because we'll cough up 3-4 gilt edged chances a game and that they're safe to press because we play out so slowly from the back and carry nearly zero threat.

We're in October and the manager not only doesn't know his best team but insists on playing his favourites. Net result is an endless shuffling of attacking and midfield options and no flow or stability.

[Midfield_General]

2 hours ago, StrangelyBrown said:

I heard something interesting yesterday on a podcast - I think they hit the nail on the head.

Talking about Kieran McKenna the comment was that he's starting to be successful at Ipswich because he always puts the needs of the club first rather than his own philosophy. Whereas other managers such as Kompany and now Russell Martin put their own reputation first and blindly stick to their philosophy hoping that even if they are unsuccessful they will be known for their philosophy and it will enable them to go on to something better.

This certainly fits with RMs comments about the journey he and his disciples have been on.

Sadly, RM isn't about Southampton Football Club he is about Russell Martin.

I heard an interesting thing about Hurzeler at Brighton too. He has a way he wants to play and has introduced that to the players this season, but he also regularly invites feedback from the players, asking them how they feel about it, whether there’s anything that they would change about it etc. Basically using the system as the basic idea but then continually evolving it in line with what the actual players on the pitch are comfortable doing, and feel works for them. 

[m4]

6 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

I heard an interesting thing about Hurzeler at Brighton too. He has a way he wants to play and has introduced that to the players this season, but he also regularly invites feedback from the players, asking them how they feel about it, whether there’s anything that they would change about it etc. Basically using the system as the basic idea but then continually evolving it in line with what the actual players on the pitch are comfortable doing, and feel works for them. 

Which is exactly how it should be imo. I'm sure if our players were asked in private about how the feel about russell martins terrorball they'd all say it's shite. Manager should be able to speak to the players and take in feedback and adapt, which lego head clearly doesn't do.

[Billy the Kidd]

2 hours ago, gio1saints said:

Respect your POV but I do not agree. 

If we only look at the results, individual errors by players and tactical fuck ups by RM in certain matches to date ~ yeah the case is pretty clear. 

- BUT - Not learning and making a bunch of definitively bad tactical decisions or having a brain fart whilst taking a penalty or letting flukey or offside goals are not the same thing as not learning.
 

For example, six months ago we might have gone to Arsenal and got beat 9-0 playing a more open formation. How many times have you seen Saints start a big lone striker up front under RM???? Never under RM actually. 

Our tactics on Saturday actually worked for the most part. He, rightly, understood that we needed to be more solid defensively and adjusted team & formation according. Even TP got on the pitch and played alright! 
 

The possibility of a hit and run away win at the on form second best team in the country was a decent possibility. 
 

If you don’t agree that RM ~ and team - did show learning, did show tactical flexibility, did show ability to amend the supposed tactical dogma by the way he set up the team for that match - fine- but “ incapable of learning” is hopelessly off the mark wrt to RM. 

And there’s been evidence in more of the matches than I care to recollect that certain new things are working - Aaron is working, Tyler is working, Mateus is working, THB is working, jeez even Adam Lallana is working when he’s on pitch. 

Call him a slow learner if you need to but inability to learn is NOT one of his, and our players, weaknesses. The players you see that are bit by bit developing - and showing quality- on the pitch might just turn into a team one of these games and surprise you yet. All ( apart from THB) absent from last years teams. 
 

Extreme reluctance to detour from his Golden Path - yup, but inability to learn, to change it up, try new things, new players ~ and no evidence to show it either ~ that’s simply not true of Russell Martin. 

I think I have read sufficient posts of yours without saying much.

Simply, to reference loads on the Arsenal game, where we pretty much played defensively, and got way, way lucky in the first half, is really stretching stuff, even for you.

We have to look at last season, and the start of this season to form opinions. Many have done so and concluded that Martin is all about himself, and that largely he is inflexible and sticking to his ways.

We have the points total we deserve. 

We have this points total due to how he sets us up.

Players will always have brain farts, or miss the occasional penalty, but the way we play has been so predictable and largely easy to beat with half decent managers and half decent squads.

The EPL is just magnifying the issue.

So, for me, there is little point in continuing with Martin, as if we go down, which we most certainly will playing to his tune, he is very likely to fuck off at the first opportunity (which is also not an issue for me), but the worse part is any good players we have (and I dont believe we have enough to stay up), will also fuck off.

Do you agree that by and large, Martin will play the usual way he wants to play?

And if so, do you think we are likely to get many more points playing this way?

Or are you suggesting he has turned a corner, and will mix it up, play more direct etc when he can, and more defensive against the top teams?

I cant see any of this, apart from very occasionally. 

Personally, I'd have sacked him already. The Leicester game for me is irrelevant - if he wins or gets a draw we should have won, he will get more time. 

It doesnt appear we have learned from the last time we were in the EPL. Too slow to react. He should have gone in the summer, harsh as it seems, and no this isnt revisionist, I never wanted him in the first place, still wanted him gone in the summer. It is playing out the way I, and most people on here, thought it would.

 

Vanity manager, comes across as the clubs/fans/players best mate, turns pretty nasty when it starts to go wrong and throws people under the bus. He only has his own interests at heart - a fucking great marketing manager he would make.

[gio1saints]

15 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Should he stay for the season there would be no 'if' about going down.

Was always very likely to be the case whatever Manager.

I try to look for evidence of rational thought, analysis and adjustment in play by RM and our team rather than just  at the current results. 

Our (or his) rigid version of PB football is something of a red herring in that regard. If that’s what you are looking for that’s what you will find. 
 

There was next to no chopping and changing of team formations and players last year. 

This year there has been plenty. None of them have worked- in terms of 3 points- YET. 
 

But are there signs that it might?
 

If you are a pessimist you can say that nope there are no signs of anything good coming out of this team this year under Russ so get rid. 1 point /22 says it all. 
 

If you are an optimist you can say some of our players are a revelation - Mateus and Tyler are already excellent, Aaron is a top goalkeeper. THB scoring at this level (!) and, last match apart, Yuki is a lovely player. Fuck, even Archer scored a proper goals on Saturday and TP can actually play football!!

That’s why I’m not all doom and gloom. There’s hope and signs yet - and this bunch, under RM, might just pull it all together at some point and go in a run. Or Get relegated with record low points - either way, mediocrity is not for us! 😁

[Billy the Kidd]

35 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

I think he is giving clear signs that he is more flexible than many give him credit for. Indeed far more flexible than during our Championship season. And do you know why? Because we were not getting beaten every week. The opposite. So there was little incentive or little need to change. Last season, until the last few matches, your point about his unrealistic philosophy ie extremely rigid focus on one style of play alone - held more water, but this season that is objectively NOT the case. 

If we do go down, and IF he stays, who better than a manager with relevant play off winning experience to get us back up? 

But he is largely playing the same way.

In 7 games this season, he has pretty much done exactly what most of us thought he would do.

v Bournemouth - wtf was he actually thinking.

v Arsenal, yes he did change some aspects, but we still farted around with the ball far too much. No one is saying lump it to the big fucker up top. We could be playing percentage balls into the channels. But no, we have to take so many risks in our own third, that when we lose the ball, which we do lots in the EPL, we get fucked. When we do beat the press, we then recycle the ball backwards. This isnt bravery, it is pandering to the managers desire for purest football. When it is pretty much boring, predicatable, slow, ponderous and pretty ineffective.

So largely, in 5/7 games, he was true to form.

 

[SWLondon Saint]

2 hours ago, gio1saints said:

Extreme reluctance to detour from his Golden Path - yup, but inability to learn, to change it up, try new things, new players ~ and no evidence to show it either ~ that’s simply not true of Russell Martin. 

The biggest problem with your argument is that when you look at how Martin asks his team to play and his teams' strengths and weaknesses, those simply have not changed over his managerial career.

If he was learning and adapting, you'd expect to have seen defensive improvement at some point - he'd figure out how to structure and prepare the team to get most of what he wants at lower risk. But no. Last season he unquestionably had some of the best defensive resources in the Championship but our defensive record was mid-table standard. He never springs a surprise with playing style, for example going direct into the channels or fast on the counter. Pretty much just says 'it is what it is, live with it' and carries on regardless.

The fact is he started as a player-manager, hasn't stopped since then, and while he clearly has some strengths in keeping players happy and team building, he also clearly has never seen a top-class manager at work - when could he have? He's reached the limits of his current ability and he needs to reflect and learn. I don't think that will happen when he's here.

[tdmickey3]

Its absolutely astounding how some are actually defending this idiotic style in the premier league, it was shown up to be what it is in the championship when we shipped 63 goals and only won a lot of games because our squad was far superior to the all the division bar a couple and we nearly messed it up.

How may goals are we going to concede in the EPL is anyone's guess but if we continue with this egotistical manager it will beat the 63 for sure.

He simple has to go and quick before any chance of a sensible manager turning it round has disappeared. 

 

[SaintNewForest]

47 minutes ago, coalman said:

For me, I look at the fixture and don't see where our next point comes from. Not just that but we're close to being unwatchable at the moment.

Any team playing us knows they simply need to press because we'll cough up 3-4 gilt edged chances a game and that they're safe to press because we play out so slowly from the back and carry nearly zero threat.

We're in October and the manager not only doesn't know his best team but insists on playing his favourites. Net result is an endless shuffling of attacking and midfield options and no flow or stability.

I agree with you, but insists on playing his favourites? Really? 

Mannings been out the team all season.

Adam Armstrong's been dropped.

Aribo has been dropped.

KWP has been dropped. 

Downes hasn't done anything deserving to be dropped. 

Nathan Wood doesn't even make the matchday squad.

Who are his favourites that you speak of? Because from where I'm stood, that's clearly not true. 

[gio1saints]

Maybe you are right. @SWLondon Saint. There’s a Good burden of proof on your side. 

But playing a lone central striker and then persisting by putting TP in, just one example of many, suggest our ( and RM’s) playing style may be more flexible these days. 


If I did not think RM could change the team and results in a positive way - and the team keeps losing -  id want him out too. But he is trying everything that I think he ought to get results.
 

He is not a one trick ball possession pony despite the still annoyingly large percentage of goals we concede from faffing around in our is area. Not sure anybody has noticed how many times Aaron chooses to longer pass to players NOT our two CB’s? Yuki tends not to faff around too much either. Just a few left to deprogramme and who knows we may have a winning team does not give teams X goals head start through mindless kamikazi play in our own area! 😁

Edited October 8 by gio1saints

[gio1saints]

42 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

I think I have read sufficient posts of yours without saying much.

Simply, to reference loads on the Arsenal game, where we pretty much played defensively, and got way, way lucky in the first half, is really stretching stuff, even for you.

We have to look at last season, and the start of this season to form opinions. Many have done so and concluded that Martin is all about himself, and that largely he is inflexible and sticking to his ways.

We have the points total we deserve. 

We have this points total due to how he sets us up.

Players will always have brain farts, or miss the occasional penalty, but the way we play has been so predictable and largely easy to beat with half decent managers and half decent squads.

The EPL is just magnifying the issue.

So, for me, there is little point in continuing with Martin, as if we go down, which we most certainly will playing to his tune, he is very likely to fuck off at the first opportunity (which is also not an issue for me), but the worse part is any good players we have (and I dont believe we have enough to stay up), will also fuck off.

Do you agree that by and large, Martin will play the usual way he wants to play?

And if so, do you think we are likely to get many more points playing this way?

Or are you suggesting he has turned a corner, and will mix it up, play more direct etc when he can, and more defensive against the top teams?

I cant see any of this, apart from very occasionally. 

Personally, I'd have sacked him already. The Leicester game for me is irrelevant - if he wins or gets a draw we should have won, he will get more time. 

It doesnt appear we have learned from the last time we were in the EPL. Too slow to react. He should have gone in the summer, harsh as it seems, and no this isnt revisionist, I never wanted him in the first place, still wanted him gone in the summer. It is playing out the way I, and most people on here, thought it would.

 

Vanity manager, comes across as the clubs/fans/players best mate, turns pretty nasty when it starts to go wrong and throws people under the bus. He only has his own interests at heart - a fucking great marketing manager he would make.

Good post and well stated. 

Your points are entirely valid and are more likely right than wrong.

I guess I am offering an alternate explanation and trying to give as much benefit of the doubt as possible to the guy.

Our timescales may also vary. Getting into the EPL to just survive year after year is not what I think SR are after. I think they are trying to create a football legacy even a brand  - and that takes time and maybe even a bit of yo-yoing between EPL and Championship.
 

Maybe, not for certain of course, they are looking at a longer time frame than just this season. 

Edited October 8 by gio1saints

[Oldandtired]

1 hour ago, gio1saints said:

 

If we do go down, and IF he stays, who better than a manager with relevant play off winning experience to get us back up? 

You usually only win the lottery once.

I firmly believe we went up despite Martin not because of him.

[Kermitzasaint]

2 hours ago, gio1saints said:

I think he is giving clear signs that he is more flexible than many give him credit for. Indeed far more flexible than during our Championship season. And do you know why? Because we were not getting beaten every week. The opposite. So there was little incentive or little need to change. Last season, until the last few matches, your point about his unrealistic philosophy ie extremely rigid focus on one style of play alone - held more water, but this season that is objectively NOT the case. 

If we do go down, and IF he stays, who better than a manager with relevant play off winning experience to get us back up? 

If RM is learning, why have we in each game, given up goals and multiple goal chances through fucking about with the ball in our own area? 

Surely that would be the first thing he would have learnt? 

Also, once Paul was subbed on, did we change our style to suit him? No, not in the slightest. I expect Paul was just as stunned to be picked to play. 

Edited October 8 by Kermitzasaint

[Charlie Wayman]

2 hours ago, Mr X said:

The only thing Russ is learning is how to lose games and turn a lead into a loss in record breaking time by sticking to a unrealistic philosophy, looks like we are sticking with him till the bitter end as now would be the sensible time to get rid, the goodwill towards him will be gone for next season in the championship and where do the club go from there  

It's hard to believe that SR will be content with another relegation and even harder for them to see any way back for Saints if they do go down.  If these players cannot avoid relegation and the few good ones then jump ship, the rump will be even less able to challenge for promotion whatever reinforcements can be brought in to shore up the team.

SR might very well have reasoned that swapping managers now and hoping for a dramatic turnaound in fortunes is far more risky than simply selling up while Saints are still a Premier League club, taking the hit associated with the future uncertainty of the club's status and leaving it to somebody else to clear up the mess. 

Lets face it, they will be very well aware that their manager recruitment track record here has been appalling so their appetite for another change could be low, whereas a new buyer (if one can be found) might have their own man lined up or strongly in mind so effectively can do their dirty work for them.

 

[Wade Garrett]

34 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

It's hard to believe that SR will be content with another relegation and even harder for them to see any way back for Saints if they do go down.  If these players cannot avoid relegation and the few good ones then jump ship, the rump will be even less able to challenge for promotion whatever reinforcements can be brought in to shore up the team.

SR might very well have reasoned that swapping managers now and hoping for a dramatic turnaound in fortunes is far more risky than simply selling up while Saints are still a Premier League club, taking the hit associated with the future uncertainty of the club's status and leaving it to somebody else to clear up the mess. 

Lets face it, they will be very well aware that their manager recruitment track record here has been appalling so their appetite for another change could be low, whereas a new buyer (if one can be found) might have their own man lined up or strongly in mind so effectively can do their dirty work for them.

 

It’s a football club not a Ford Escort!

[lambtiss]

3 hours ago, gio1saints said:

If that is your criteria for proof of inability to learn ~ results and points on the board, you are right Charlie. 
 

My point is that “ Inability to learn” and how many points we have hit after 7 games are not the same thing. 
Many sticks to hit RM with this season- if hit him is what you desire - but, “ inability to learn” is not one of them. 
 

The thing for me is many of the examples of Russ "learning" are mostly accidental. For example, the only reason we tightened uo at the back and played less possession at the back was because Bazunu got injured, not because Russ realised that Mccarthy was a better keeper. 

Similarly, Russ didnt put our best CB pairing together last season when we embarked upon our long not losing streak, it was because Stephens got injured. In fact, as soon as Stephens was fit, Russell's desperation to shoehorn him back into the team caused disruption and some confused performances. 

Again, this season Russ didnt spot the potential usefulness of Tall Paul. His hand was forced by the injury to Stewart, who, with his injury record was rushed back too soon and is now injured again. 

At the first opportunity, Russ resorts to his Plan A, demonstrating that he hasnt learned at all. For example, after tightening up the defence to get through the playoffs he reverted to type straightaway in the Premier League, resulting in numerous errors that have lost us 6 matches. 

Rant over 😂

 

 

Edited October 8 by lambtiss

[miserableoldgit]

17 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

They managed at the top leagues elsewhere though. Also as footballers they played at the highest level (not a guarantee of success by itself, but adds to their potential as managers and garners respect from their players).

But we keep being told on here that most top Foreign leagues aren't a patch on the Prem......most equivalent to the Championship and by all accounts (IF TRUE) the players have a great deal of respect for RM......just playing Devils Advocate.....

[Midfield_General]

3 hours ago, m4 said:

Which is exactly how it should be imo. I'm sure if our players were asked in private about how the feel about russell martins terrorball they'd all say it's shite. Manager should be able to speak to the players and take in feedback and adapt, which lego head clearly doesn't do.

There's also a proven psychological aspect where people are much more likely to buy in and take responsibility for something they feel they have been able to have input into. 

Basically, if someone says 'Here's the way we're doing it, get on with it', it's very easy to feel distanced from it, so when it goes wrong you can feel that it's not your fault because it was never your idea in the first place. You don't take responsibility for it. 

Whereas if someone invites you in, says 'I'm thinking we approach this like this, but I'd love to know what you think', and you feel like they're listening to you, you're much more invested in that because you feel like it's something you've contributed to. You want it to work more, and you're less likely to psychologically disown it. 

The principle is called 'teamship' - it was a big part of the ethos of the England rugby team in the early 2000s, including when they won the World Cup under Woodward. (Maybe we should get him back in...)

I'd be amazed if our players feel properly bought into a system that is clearly forced on them whether they want it or not, which means they are made out to be losers every week, and which regularly makes them individually look like idiots. Especially when, like after the Bournemouth game, they get thrown under the bus afterwards by the person enforcing it on them. I'd imagine if you asked most of our players whether they'd want to try a different way of playing, they'd bite your hand off. They all want to win as much as we do, and they're the ones with the cameras on them when the current system fails (again). 

 

Edited October 8 by Midfield_General

[derry]

Nothing has changed until with goal kicks we stop the centre backs passing to the keeper three yards away who then passes it on or vice versa. As for playing less possession against Arsenal, that was because they were outplaying us and we couldn't win or keep the ball. The way we play is Kamikaze. Against Bournemouth we were careless and weren't focussed otherwise a professional approach would have prevented that damaging first goal.

[SaintsBarry74]

We should be able to beat Leicester. Aside from a very good GK, they're quite shit. Cooper's an awful manager at this level.

[tdmickey3]

Just now, SaintsBarry74 said:

We should be able to beat Leicester. Aside from a very good GK, they're quite shit. Cooper's an awful manager at this level.

So is Russell Martin

[Saint Fan CaM]

Russ learning? Give me a break! Him swapping players around is like changing from a tooth brush to a broom to dust the mantelpiece. He doesn’t know how to utilise the players at his disposal because he’s NOT learnt how to adapt his system to a higher level of performance against tougher opposition. The reason we came fourth and scrapped a promotion last year was because of the players he had at his disposal. They did that, possibly for him, but not because he’s learning. 

The Prem has exposed him for what he is - a mediocre mid-Championship level manager who relies on keeping players on-side to achieve HIS goals, rather than properly coaching them to achieve the goals of the club and of course the supporters. If anyone like @gio1saints is in any doubt what that looks like (it’s been a long time coming), it’s scoring goals and winning some games of football!

[Toussaint]

3 hours ago, gio1saints said:

Our timescales may also vary. Getting into the EPL to just survive year after year is not what I think SR are after. I think they are trying to create a football legacy even a brand  - and that takes time and maybe even a bit of yo-yoing between EPL and Championship.
 

Maybe, not for certain of course, they are looking at a longer time frame than just this season. 

I find it impossible to comprehend that Dragan, or any competent business minded person, would accept relegation as worthwhile risk in their long term strategy. I would think that having had the somewhat good fortune to return to the premier league at the first attempt they would be doing everything they can to maintain that status and build from there.  

Edited October 8 by Toussaint
typo

[bangkoksaint]

We'll be all Saintsy...let him take us down and then sack him

[Toussaint]

The issue isn't just Martin, the bigger issue is that no one above him has the slightest clue what to do about him or our situation. No one, I have no faith in them to appoint anyone better. It all feels a bit "Emperors new clothes" from the outside. 

[Farmer Saint]

12 minutes ago, bangkoksaint said:

We'll be all Saintsy...let him take us down and then sack him

That's not Saintsy. Saintsy is keeping him here until Xmas, sacking him with no contingency plan, putting Lallana in charge (he draws the first game and wins the 3rd and 4th round FA Cup match against lower league opposition). This mini-resurgence proves we don't need to improve the squad and we buy no-one in January, before we go on a run where we get 2 points out of a possible 24 and Lallana gets sacked. We then bring in Big Sam for a mini-resurgence before we go down with 19 points. 

[Football Special]

2 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

That's not Saintsy. Saintsy is keeping him here until Xmas, sacking him with no contingency plan, putting Lallana in charge (he draws the first game and wins the 3rd and 4th round FA Cup match against lower league opposition). This mini-resurgence proves we don't need to improve the squad and we buy no-one in January, before we go on a run where we get 2 points out of a possible 24 and Lallana gets sacked. We then bring in Big Sam for a mini-resurgence before we go down with 19 points. 

I'd take 19 points if offered now 

[saintant]

26 minutes ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

We should be able to beat Leicester. Aside from a very good GK, they're quite shit. Cooper's an awful manager at this level.

Unfortunately for us they know exactly how to beat us as they proved last season. They will press us hard and flood men forward knowing that 1) they are likely to win the ball near our goal and 2) if we do beat their press we'll take so long to get the ball forward they'll have ample time to get back into shape.  They hammered us twice last season by doing exactly this and Rm learned nothing from the first game at St Marys.

[Master Bates]

Something special happened last Christmas, I met the future, our lord saviour.

Sadly, nothing yet has come to fruitition, but I believe it will. 

[derry]

5 minutes ago, Football Special said:

I'd take 19 points if offered now 

So would I, we'd be top of the league. 😁

[OneMrsWallace]

4 hours ago, coalman said:

For me, I look at the fixture and don't see where our next point comes from. Not just that but we're close to being unwatchable at the moment.

Any team playing us knows they simply need to press because we'll cough up 3-4 gilt edged chances a game and that they're safe to press because we play out so slowly from the back and carry nearly zero threat.

We're in October and the manager not only doesn't know his best team but insists on playing his favourites. Net result is an endless shuffling of attacking and midfield options and no flow or stability.

I think this is compounded by RM thinking the process is more important than whether we stay up or not. 

Edited October 8 by OneMrsWallace

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

40 minutes ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

We should be able to beat Leicester. Aside from a very good GK, they're quite shit. Cooper's an awful manager at this level.

Unfortunately last season Russel Martin demonstrated his unwillingness to compromise by delivering two replica thumpings.

Edited October 8 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[saintant]

33 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Russ learning? Give me a break! Him swapping players around is like changing from a tooth brush to a broom to dust the mantelpiece. He doesn’t know how to utilise the players at his disposal because he’s NOT learnt how to adapt his system to a higher level of performance against tougher opposition. The reason we came fourth and scrapped a promotion last year was because of the players he had at his disposal. They did that, possibly for him, but not because he’s learning. 

The Prem has exposed him for what he is - a mediocre mid-Championship level manager who relies on keeping players on-side to achieve HIS goals, rather than properly coaching them to achieve the goals of the club and of course the supporters. If anyone like @gio1saints is in any doubt what that looks like (it’s been a long time coming), it’s scoring goals and winning some games of football!

Agree with much of this. Through no fault of his own it is apparent that RM does not possess the tools and ability to manage above the Championship. He is unable to set up a team to be solid defensively and this means scoring lots of goals to compensate which is not going to happen in the Premier League. Credit is due for getting us promoted but we need someone else to take us to the next level and sooner rather than later.

[coalman]

4 hours ago, SaintNewForest said:

I agree with you, but insists on playing his favourites? Really? 

Mannings been out the team all season.

Adam Armstrong's been dropped.

Aribo has been dropped.

KWP has been dropped. 

Downes hasn't done anything deserving to be dropped. 

Nathan Wood doesn't even make the matchday squad.

Who are his favourites that you speak of? Because from where I'm stood, that's clearly not true. 

You're saying Stephens isn't going straight back in the team?

[david in sweden]

On 06/10/2024 at 13:01, Lighthouse said:

64% in the Championship - Not good enough for the Championship

63% in the PL - One of England's top keepers.

I do think Ramsdale is a better keeper overall but however you dress it up, that's a worse save percentage than the man who everyone said, "saves nothing and we got promoted in spite of him." Ramsdale has conceded 13 in 5 games so far, so he's not done anything heroic yet.

 

I think some of you are being a bit tough on Ramsdale. many of the goals conceded were'nt directly his fault. 

I've frequently written (for several decades past) .. that any keeper is only as good as the defence in front of him.   SEE NOTE at end of this post.

We conceded too many goals last season - but despite promotion - and we are still reliant on; THB, Bednarek and Stephens as our first choice CB's.   

Sugawara (though good) is still new to the task, as is Charlie Taylor and KWP has one foot out of the door, and so we have few viable alternatives.

Look at some other Prem. clubs and count the international caps they have in their defence(s).. and the quality of strikers our defenders come up against.

 

There is no automatic increase in quality because we won promotion, quite the reverse, even mid-table sides are seen to be better than we are. 

The quality gap between the top of  the Championship and the bottom three in the Prem. is.....enormous, and the league table shows that both

Ipswich and Leicester have fared little better so far.   RM must come up with a Plan B - even on a temporary basis - but I'm not surprised at our position. 

Our defence, in its present form, is clearly not good enough for survival, and so this manager, or any other will have to live with the curse until January.

 

NOTE ; For those too young to remember, or who don't have a Saints History to peruse. 

After a disappointing mid-table finish in the previous season, Lawrie McMenemy signed (the then) England goalkeeper Peter Shilton in Summer 1982.

Arguably (one of) the best keeper in the World at the time, Shilton must have been shell-shocked by the performances of those in front of him when

after the first 9 games ...his defence  had conceded ..19 goals, whilst our strike force had scored .. just  5 times, and had won only twice.

Yes, it was a long time ago, and I'm not seeking to compare Shilton and Ramsdale, even though AR is on the current short list of England keepers'

but it's an eerie reminder of  a similar occurrence. ( b.t.w. Saints did improve in 82-83, and were in top 10 by Christmas, and around 5th at Easter.)

 

 

 

Edited October 8 by david in sweden

[Kermitzasaint]

1 hour ago, miserableoldgit said:

But we keep being told on here that most top Foreign leagues aren't a patch on the Prem......most equivalent to the Championship and by all accounts (IF TRUE) the players have a great deal of respect for RM......just playing Devils Advocate.....

Players don't tend to go public in criticism of the current manager. RM is seriously precious as it is