Russell Martin

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

You can’t keep stirring the pot hoping that it’s eventually going to set.

I know, and if he's sacked today I would probably be glad but the criticism i've always had of Martin is that he refuses to adapt, but that's not the case right now. There are changes being made although not at the rate they need to be. 

[Lighthouse]

8 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

63% of shots from Premier League strikers vs 64% of shots from Championship strikers. 

Yes, and you have been endlessly stating that the latter was an absolute liability in the Championship (not the PL, the Championship) and that 64% was an appalling save percentage.

People keep saying the the goals we conceded yesterday were from Russ being arrogant and trying to play it around the back all the time but they really weren’t. For the first goal, I would expect a midfielder like Downes to be trying to play the ball in that position. He made an absolute brain fart and played the wrong pass, which is on him not Russ, but he absolutely should be trying to play in a teammate, not just hoofing that up the pitch. Likewise Sugawara, there was no way he was trying to play a pass for Saka’s third, he either took a heavy touch trying to control it or it was a miss-kick trying to clear it out of danger. There is no way on earth he has been coached to play a slow, trickling ball right across goal, ten yards out.

Monday was on Russ, yesterday wasn’t.

[derry]

The critical change is dispense  with the possession obsession and the straitjacket imposed on the players. I feel Martin is obsessed with possession so whatever tinkering around the edges he does isn't the solution. A high tempo, high pressing fast transition into fast breaks together with take no chances at the back. Play the fast pass and run in the opponents half. 

[Badger]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Ramsdale has conceded 13 in 5 games so far, so he's not done anything heroic yet.

An irrefutable stat perhaps, but it doesn’t show how it might have been 25 in 5 games without him.

I’m sure some nerd has a “metric” for the ‘unexpected fuck up factor’ , or the ‘he’ll be disappointed with that’ / or X(beaten low to the bottom left/easily at his near post) phenomenon.  

[aintforever]

7 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Yes, and you have been endlessly stating that the latter was an absolute liability in the Championship (not the PL, the Championship) and that 64% was an appalling save percentage.

People keep saying the the goals we conceded yesterday were from Russ being arrogant and trying to play it around the back all the time but they really weren’t. For the first goal, I would expect a midfielder like Downes to be trying to play the ball in that position. He made an absolute brain fart and played the wrong pass, which is on him not Russ, but he absolutely should be trying to play in a teammate, not just hoofing that up the pitch. Likewise Sugawara, there was no way he was trying to play a pass for Saka’s third, he either took a heavy touch trying to control it or it was a miss-kick trying to clear it out of danger. There is no way on earth he has been coached to play a slow, trickling ball right across goal, ten yards out.

Monday was on Russ, yesterday wasn’t.

I disagree, Downes had a forward pass he could have made, I think it was Archer made a good run down the left but his first instinct was to try a square/backward pass and fucked it up. It's a trait we have seen a lot with Martin's side and it's really frustrating. Sugawara was probably trying the right thing at that stage of the game to be fair but it was still a typical Martin goal against - taking risks at the back keeping possession but being scared of taking risks going forward through fear of losing possession. 

[bangkoksaint]

I see the Brentford mantra is ‘how fast can we get the ball forward’. No wonder they are doing well and scoring goals. I just can’t fathom how RM thinks dilly dallying around with no tempo can be remotely successful with the players at his disposal. Pull the trigger now and put in place a manager that will play pragmatic football with the squad he has and I’m convinced we have a fighting chance of staying up.

[Saint_clark]

41 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Yes, and you have been endlessly stating that the latter was an absolute liability in the Championship (not the PL, the Championship) and that 64% was an appalling save percentage.

People keep saying the the goals we conceded yesterday were from Russ being arrogant and trying to play it around the back all the time but they really weren’t. For the first goal, I would expect a midfielder like Downes to be trying to play the ball in that position. He made an absolute brain fart and played the wrong pass, which is on him not Russ, but he absolutely should be trying to play in a teammate, not just hoofing that up the pitch. Likewise Sugawara, there was no way he was trying to play a pass for Saka’s third, he either took a heavy touch trying to control it or it was a miss-kick trying to clear it out of danger. There is no way on earth he has been coached to play a slow, trickling ball right across goal, ten yards out.

Monday was on Russ, yesterday wasn’t.

The first goal was absolutely on the style of play. We gave it away twice in quick succession just before the goal went in, both times from overplaying it out of defence. 

[derry]

17 minutes ago, bangkoksaint said:

I see the Brentford mantra is ‘how fast can we get the ball forward’. No wonder they are doing well and scoring goals. I just can’t fathom how RM thinks dilly dallying around with no tempo can be remotely successful with the players at his disposal. Pull the trigger now and put in place a manager that will play pragmatic football with the squad he has and I’m convinced we have a fighting chance of staying up.

That's the way to go for middling team.

[Toussaint]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

It's not a wishlist, it's what is happening at the moment. It's one of the two.

From this quote and your previous one referring to “what you are hearing” sic. I am unsure what the inference is. Put this together with the purported leaks from within this week and it sounds very divided at the senior levels? 

[saintant]

6 minutes ago, derry said:

That's the way to go for middling team.

It's a no brainer but our Russ is convinced he can buck the trend but continues to prove himself wrong.

[Lighthouse]

52 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I disagree, Downes had a forward pass he could have made, I think it was Archer made a good run down the left but his first instinct was to try a square/backward pass and fucked it up. It's a trait we have seen a lot with Martin's side and it's really frustrating. Sugawara was probably trying the right thing at that stage of the game to be fair but it was still a typical Martin goal against - taking risks at the back keeping possession but being scared of taking risks going forward through fear of losing possession. 

This was the situation when he tried to make a pass. There was no obvious and easy pass on, so he tried to play it to the man wide of him (Manning) but he misjudged it and Partey was in. The two players in front of him were well marked (Archer had two men on him), as was Fernandes to his right. It was an error of judgement by Downes, nothing more, nothing less.

[Lord Duckhunter]

8 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

This was the situation when he tried to make a pass. There was no obvious and easy pass on, so he tried to play it to the man wide of him (Manning) but he misjudged it and Partey was in. The two players in front of him were well marked (Archer had two men on him), as was Fernandes to his right. It was an error of judgement by Downes, nothing more, nothing less.

You knock it in the channels then. Lego claps when we fancying around with it, I’ve absolutely no doubt the culture he’s encouraging is causing our defensive issues. It’s not like his previous teams were defensively sound. 

[Harry_SFC]

35 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

This was the situation when he tried to make a pass. There was no obvious and easy pass on, so he tried to play it to the man wide of him (Manning) but he misjudged it and Partey was in. The two players in front of him were well marked (Archer had two men on him), as was Fernandes to his right. It was an error of judgement by Downes, nothing more, nothing less.

Looks to me that a little through ball over the top into the channel for Archer to run onto is on. Downes is very accustomed to the Martin style of play.

I do like how Fernandes has come in and looked to play the ball forwards as much as possible. That ball into Archer for the goal is what we should be doing more of. Slightly more direct. 

Edited October 6 by Harry_SFC

[AlexLaw76]

34 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

This was the situation when he tried to make a pass. There was no obvious and easy pass on, so he tried to play it to the man wide of him (Manning) but he misjudged it and Partey was in. The two players in front of him were well marked (Archer had two men on him), as was Fernandes to his right. It was an error of judgement by Downes, nothing more, nothing less.

Of course, lets discount a pass where the ball travels more than 10 yards above head height

[Saint_clark]

5 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Looks to me that a little through ball over the top into the channel for Archer to run onto is on. Downes is very accustomed to the Martin style of play.

I do like how Fernandes has come in and looked to play the ball forwards as much as possible. That ball into Archer for the goal is what we should be doing more of. Slightly more direct. 

The forward players make those runs a lot, which means it must be something coached into them, which begs the question why we don't play the f*cking pass when those runs are made...

[OttawaSaint]

Still here is he? FFS!

So we gift Vardy and co a nice cosy 3pts and then what, throw him to the Lions vs City? He needs to b go now!

[hypochondriac]

In sort of a morbid curiosity sort of way I'm kind of interested to see how man city will mangle us in a few weeks. 

[tdmickey3]

17 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

In sort of a morbid curiosity sort of way I'm kind of interested to see how man city will mangle us in a few weeks. 

We wont be as lucky as we were against Arsenal that`s for sure

6 nil is my guess, UNLESS Martin changes the "style"

But i am hoping we have sacked him before Leicester 

 

 

Edited October 7 by tdmickey3

[musesaint]

We have 1 point. Martin needs to be out the door now. Leave it much longer and we have no chance of staying up. 

[SaintNewForest]

4 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

 

Smallbone is nowhere near the side, not even on the bench, after last season Martin claimed he would be "a top, top player" for us. He's obviously realised that isn't going to happen. 

 

Smallbones injured, but yeah ... 

[Charlie Wayman]

8 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

I don’t buy that the team isn’t good enough.

We have a class keeper, a German international CB, a Polish international CB, an England U21 CB, 2 quality right backs who have both represented their countries.  In midfield we have Downes who is proper box to box, Fernandes, who is already showing us how good he is, Lallana - getting on but still quality, Big Les, inexperienced and needs coaching but has all the tools to be a decent player.  Up front we have Archer who is a decent finisher and needs a run of games and a manager to make him feel 10 feet tall.  Diaz scored 7 in 14 for the worst team in the league last season and is not a winger.  On the wings we have Dibling, who is already showing premier league quality at a young age, Cornet looked really good at Burnley, has the ability, needs a manager to make him feel 10 feet tall.  Fraser was a quality winger until Eddie Howe made him train with the kids but has undoubted quality.

We have a manager that imposes a system on his players totally at odds with their strengths.  He chops and changes the side game to game.  The players look beaten before they start.

A good manager would find a system that works to the strengths of his players.  A good manager would make his players feel 10 feet tall.  A good manager would play a settled side.

It is imperative we recruit a good manager.  Timing is everything.  Martin has had his chance and blown it.  A new manager in now would have a couple of weeks to size his squad up before the Leicester game.  Leave it any longer and you’re throwing points away and making it unnecessarily more difficult for a new boss to get us out of the bottom 3.
 

 

 

Are you sure?

[Saint_clark]

51 minutes ago, SaintNewForest said:

Smallbones injured, but yeah ... 

Well then I was giving him more credit than he deserves. 

[harvey]

4 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

This was the situation when he tried to make a pass. There was no obvious and easy pass on, so he tried to play it to the man wide of him (Manning) but he misjudged it and Partey was in. The two players in front of him were well marked (Archer had two men on him), as was Fernandes to his right. It was an error of judgement by Downes, nothing more, nothing less.

How about playing it over the top for Archer to run on to?

[a1ex2001]

25 minutes ago, harvey said:

How about playing it over the top for Archer to run on to?

Over the top ….. run onto ….. what is this weird language you speak?  We might loose possession if we do that and Jan won’t win the most touches in the league competition if we go forwards!

Still hoping they sack Rus in the morning.

Edited October 6 by a1ex2001

[Sheaf Saint]

46 minutes ago, harvey said:

How about playing it over the top for Archer to run on to?

[SouSaint]

5 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

This was the situation when he tried to make a pass. There was no obvious and easy pass on, so he tried to play it to the man wide of him (Manning) but he misjudged it and Partey was in. The two players in front of him were well marked (Archer had two men on him), as was Fernandes to his right. It was an error of judgement by Downes, nothing more, nothing less.

KWP is in, he's got the run on the defence. All Downes has to do is knock it into the space for him but instead he tries to retain possession. There's an Arsenal player out of shot playing him comfortably onside as well before anyone says he's offside. 

[Dellyears]

1 hour ago, harvey said:

How about playing it over the top for Archer to run on to?

 

1 hour ago, harvey said:

How about playing it over the top for Archer to run on to?

Over the top? That's out of date, that's Sunday stuff. You can play six or eight short passes to each other, that's what we pay to see. 
Goals? Well we've got three in the first seven matches but we're winning on passes made. so that's alright.

[Wade Garrett]

4 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Are you sure?

What isn’t right there then?

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, harvey said:

How about playing it over the top for Archer to run on to?

Archer had two men on him, there’s another just right of that shot. His best bet in that scenario would have been playing it over the top to the left for KWP. The most likely outcome would have been either an Arsenal throw in, or one of their three defenders on that side comes across to cut him off. Either outcome is clearly better than passing it straight to Partey and conceding a goal.

All of which is besides the original point. Trying to keep possession for a bit when you’ve just taken the lead at Arsenal is really not a stupid idea BUT no manager in the world would want a player to play the ball that Downes did. Downes made an error of judgement, that goal is on him.

[aintforever]

7 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

This was the situation when he tried to make a pass. There was no obvious and easy pass on, so he tried to play it to the man wide of him (Manning) but he misjudged it and Partey was in. The two players in front of him were well marked (Archer had two men on him), as was Fernandes to his right. It was an error of judgement by Downes, nothing more, nothing less.

All the Arsenal players are moving forward, KWP (I thought it was was Archer) on the left wing has checked his run and is onside. Over the top into the space and he could be through on goal, as long as it clears the defender at worse it goes out for a throw or ends up with the Arsenal keeper. But no, they are hard-wired to try and keep possession at all costs.

Edited October 6 by aintforever

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

I don't know what it is, but the last time we were relegated I couldn't give a toss about a lot of the players. This time, I genuinely believe they're a good bunch of players, eager to work as a unit and do well in this league but they're being hampered by their manager. Players are regularly being asked to play out of their natural positions and I'm concerned that any creativity they may have is being coached out of them with this indirect football.

If Russ is still here for the Leicester game (which seems like a certainty), he's got 2 weeks to come up with a Plan B that shows he's more attacking minded than we're currently giving him credit for. We have to win that game which setting the team up to have numerous shots on goal.

[washsaint]

Have you whining babies not figured out yet?......this squad is not (a couple of players apart, and I don;t count KWP in that couple of players) a Premiership quality squad.

This season was always going to be a mighty struggle - you can't legislate for stupid errors like Downes made yesterday (there's a reason he was not a starter at WHU).  Most of our squad is a strong Championship squad but it is not (Ramsdale, Fernandes, Dibling aside) a Premiership squad.

[Dark Munster]

2 hours ago, washsaint said:

Have you whining babies not figured out yet?......this squad is not (a couple of players apart, and I don;t count KWP in that couple of players) a Premiership quality squad.

This season was always going to be a mighty struggle - you can't legislate for stupid errors like Downes made yesterday (there's a reason he was not a starter at WHU).  Most of our squad is a strong Championship squad but it is not (Ramsdale, Fernandes, Dibling aside) a Premiership squad.

Hi Russ. Most of us aren't buying that crap. Nice try though!

[Tommy Mulgrew]

At present and with the way that we play, we are by far the weakest team in the league.  Wolves, although below us on goal difference, have scored three away from home at Brentford.  Everton, Ipswich, Leicester and Palace are picking up draws and Everton and Leicester have even won a game.  We have not even looked like winning; we could not score against 10-man Newcastle and although we came close to beating Ipswich we were second-best in most aspects of that game; they more than deserved to draw. Other relegation-threatened teams have shown commendable levels of grit and determination to grind out results whereas Russball completely drains our side of fighting spirit and magnifies mistakes that even our better players make in our half (Sugawarra and Downes most recently).  We just have to adjust the style of our play away from faffing around in and near our penalty area and get the ball up the pitch a lot more quickly, avoiding having to face 10 men defending in front of us and us recycling the ball back to Rambo from promising attacking positions/free kicks in their half.  Russ has had long enough to learn those and other lessons - lots of other posts have talked about the ways in which we can get more competitive - and, if he cannot get a grip and get us firing in a high-tempo, high pressing way, he has to be sacked.  He could do far worse than to watch and learn from some of the Ralph, Koeman and Poch games against Arsenal and Man City to see how to get points from the most unlikely sources.  IMO, we need at least nine more points before the end of November to have any chance of avoiding relegation.  I wish I were confident that RM could deliver them.  From what I have seen so far, I think he cannot.  We need to get someone who can.  Sadly, I don’t trust SR to do it.

😩😡😥🥺

[AlexLaw76]

Amazing Martin is still here.

he had no idea how to go about this season, and no idea how to get the best from this squad in this league

completely and utterly out of his depth 

[Farmer Saint]

8 hours ago, washsaint said:

Have you whining babies not figured out yet?......this squad is not (a couple of players apart, and I don;t count KWP in that couple of players) a Premiership quality squad.

This season was always going to be a mighty struggle - you can't legislate for stupid errors like Downes made yesterday (there's a reason he was not a starter at WHU).  Most of our squad is a strong Championship squad but it is not (Ramsdale, Fernandes, Dibling aside) a Premiership squad.

Mate, been banging this drum for ages - people won't have it. 

[Wade Garrett]

3 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Amazing Martin is still here.

he had no idea how to go about this season, and no idea how to get the best from this squad in this league

completely and utterly out of his depth 

Dragan is going to take a massive haircut on his investment at this rate.

 

 

[saintant]

Russball has us playing mainly horizontally which would be perfect if the goals were on the sides of the pitch. Obviously they are not which is why the better teams play mainly vertically as Bmuff did against us and Brighton and Spurs showed yesterday. Until he changes from horizontal to vertical we will continue to hamper our ability to make fast and effective progress upfield towards the opponents goal and we will continue to play meaningless football from side to side and back.

[Wade Garrett]

28 minutes ago, saintant said:

Russball has us playing mainly horizontally which would be perfect if the goals were on the sides of the pitch. Obviously they are not which is why the better teams play mainly vertically as Bmuff did against us and Brighton and Spurs showed yesterday. Until he changes from horizontal to vertical we will continue to hamper our ability to make fast and effective progress upfield towards the opponents goal and we will continue to play meaningless football from side to side and back.

Football really is over-complicating itself.  Too many clever-clogs out there (not talking about you saintant).

[CB Fry]

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Mate, been banging this drum for ages - people won't have it. 

You’re, like, the most insightful person this forum has ever known.

Everyone knows our squad is not full Premier League standard. 

[Football Special]

17 hours ago, musesaint said:

We have 1 point. Martin needs to be out the door now. Leave it much longer and we have no chance of staying up. 

We are not staying up I'm afraid. 

[Farmer Saint]

20 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

You’re, like, the most insightful person this forum has ever known.

Everyone knows our squad is not full Premier League standard. 

Well, I think that's the issue - they don't. There have been various people on this forum, even in the last week, saying that we have a team easily capable of midtable, a superior team to Bournemouth and that we easily have a PL squad. So no, not everyone does. 

It's not about insight, it's about realism. We were favourites before the season to finish bottom. It wasn't because of the Manager, it was because of the squad. 

[trousers]

11 hours ago, washsaint said:

Most of our squad is a strong Championship squad

 

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Mate, been banging this drum for ages - people won't have it. 

Name 5 forum members who don't think our squad is anything other than "strong championship" level....  

(Clue: you won't be able to)

[badgerx16]

53 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

 

Everyone knows our squad is not full Premier League standard. 

Nor is our manager.

[derry]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

You’re, like, the most insightful person this forum has ever known.

Everyone knows our squad is not full Premier League standard. 

That doesn't mean we can't put out a team that dispenses with the high risk ball rotation in our own half and actually plays high tempo and stands a better chance of conceding less and maybe winning a few matches.

[Osvaldorama]

This is a stupid argument, because if you have a shite team that’s even more reason to bring in a manager that isn’t trying to reinvent football. 
 

Why the fuck are we asking a low quality squad to play high quality football?

 

Worse squads than ours have stayed up, just by applying a modicum of common sense. Something which sadly Southampton FC has lacked for a long fucking time 

Edited October 7 by Osvaldorama

[disconnect]

Amazed he's still here. The tactics, which he's stated he won't change, has cost us in every single match this season. 

[saintant]

37 minutes ago, disconnect said:

Amazed he's still here. The tactics, which he's stated he won't change, has cost us in every single match this season. 

He will go at some stage and the only question is, how long will SR leave it? The more games they allow him to continue with his vanity project which will not work the less games a new man will have to extract us from trouble. 

Edited October 7 by saintant

[SWLondon Saint]

On 06/10/2024 at 10:02, Farmer Saint said:

Exactly this - our fans seem to massively overrate our team and I don't understand why - perhaps it is as a justification for how shit they think Martin is. 

Martin is a Championship Manager, but our team is also a Championship team. 

Come on, this team is clearly better than anything in the Championship right now. You can argue it's one of the worst PL teams, sure, but it would piss all over the Championship. Even our relegation team from 2 years ago was a level above the best Championship teams.

[Gloucester Saint]

2 hours ago, CB Fry said:

You’re, like, the most insightful person this forum has ever known.

Everyone knows our squad is not full Premier League standard. 

Nor, clearly, was Luton’s but they at least competed last year and took it deep into the season to give themselves a shot at surviving and giving the club and supporters some hope.

We have the Blades frontline granted but we are clearly better in midfield and at the back bar Gus Hamer. 

As it stands, Sheffield Utd’s points total and our own from 22/23 looks pie in the sky at this rate. Archer showed on Saturday he can be dangerous with quicker balls in/through, and we have the players - Fernandes, Lallana, Downes (ok, error on first goal Sat), Smallbone, KWP, Taylor, Lesley, Sugawara - who would look better moving the ball quicker. Our forward line whatever their limitations bar Onachu trade on movement before a defence and screening DM get set. And it’s moving so slowly they aren’t the type of players to create a trick to break a defence down in front of them. 

Unlikely we’d have stayed up, but very unlikely now after chucking away 4-5 obvious points for the taking largely through an obsession with method on a slower possession-based style of play, when a more blended approach would help.