Russell Martin

[Dusic]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think that maybe the step up from championship to prem was bigger than many expected and I'd say that applies to both players and manager. Whether they can adapt remains to be seen. 

Seems bigger than many on here expected which is suprising because we were only out of it for a season and were abject in our last two PL seasons.

Has always been extremely obvious that it will be very difficult to stay up this season given the lack of Luton, Sheff Utd level sides and the money spent overall in the league.

Nothing has changed. We were a deflection away from being out of the bottom 3 after 5 games and yet there seems so much agitation to change as if people expected to be comfortably mid table.

Pretty much any side who has 3 managers in a season goes down as an utter shambles. If we get rid of Martin now I think that is far more likely than the scenario whereby we suddenly improve hugely and have a comfortable season.

[hypochondriac]

19 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Seems bigger than many on here expected which is suprising because we were only out of it for a season and were abject in our last two PL seasons.

Has always been extremely obvious that it will be very difficult to stay up this season given the lack of Luton, Sheff Utd level sides and the money spent overall in the league.

Nothing has changed. We were a deflection away from being out of the bottom 3 after 5 games and yet there seems so much agitation to change as if people expected to be comfortably mid table.

Pretty much any side who has 3 managers in a season goes down as an utter shambles. If we get rid of Martin now I think that is far more likely than the scenario whereby we suddenly improve hugely and have a comfortable season.

I knew it would be difficult but I did think we would present slightly more of a threat and look a bit less pathetic against some of the lesser teams. 

[Dellyears]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I knew it would be difficult but I did think we would present slightly more of a threat and look a bit less pathetic against some of the lesser teams. 

We have several very good players. The quality is much higher than the relegated side. The summer signings give real hope--Ramsdale, Sugar, Fernandes and to my surprise Lallana with Downes and the young CH with the long name are a street ahead of the relegation team. When they gell we will be clear of relegation zone and next season mid table. Don't panic!

[ally_uk]

Seriously question how long would you give Martin would you accept relegation? 

[beatlesaint]

5 minutes ago, ally_uk said:

Seriously question how long would you give Martin would you accept relegation? 

I think they'll stick with him even if he takes us back down with a whimper. 

[Football Special]

Leicester fans starting to turn on Cooper, seems a bit early to me. 

[hypochondriac]

27 minutes ago, Dellyears said:

We have several very good players. The quality is much higher than the relegated side. The summer signings give real hope--Ramsdale, Sugar, Fernandes and to my surprise Lallana with Downes and the young CH with the long name are a street ahead of the relegation team. When they gell we will be clear of relegation zone and next season mid table. Don't panic!

I'm not panicking. Are we streets ahead of them? I'm not convinced we are in defence although obviously Ramsdale is a big upgrade. Midfield is arguable as Lavia and Armstrong would walk into this team and probably JWP as well. Remains to be seen if Fernandes and Archer are better than Alcaraz and Adams. I'd say they have the potential to be but not quite yet and Sulemana is a better option that BBD for me if we are basing it just on the games so far which admittedly is just a handful. We also had a lot of dross in backup positions last time we were up here which we no longer have so you could say our squad is stronger with more potential. 

There's certainly an argument to be made that we have a stronger team than the last time we got relegated but I would contest that its quality is much higher than what we had previously. 

Edited September 25 by hypochondriac

[Dman]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

I think that maybe the step up from championship to prem was bigger than many expected and I'd say that applies to both players and manager. Whether they can adapt remains to be seen. 

The only one I've been surprised with not being able to step up is THB. The rest, it was absolutely obvious wouldn't be good enough at this level. 

I actually find it pretty comical that we allowed MArtin to have a say on signing Wood. A bang average championship player was never going to be good enough to step up. 

It might only have been 4m, but that's 4m we could have put towards a number 9 (on top of what we paid for Archer). 

I'll give the board benefit of the doubt over BBD, he had a decent enough go at it last season. 

[CheshireSaint]

5 hours ago, Dellyears said:

We have several very good players. The quality is much higher than the relegated side. The summer signings give real hope--Ramsdale, Sugar, Fernandes and to my surprise Lallana with Downes and the young CH with the long name are a street ahead of the relegation team. When they gell we will be clear of relegation zone and next season mid table. Don't panic!

This. Many people on here are resigned to going down, irrespective of what the Manager does. I don't agree. I believe we have a lower / mid table competitive team. The vast majority of goals conceded, were entirely avoidable. Playing in a more practical way, may have prevented those (we will never know for sure). If that were the case, we could be on 6 points perhaps and looking fairly comfortable. 

As has been pointed out previously, we 'aim' to play a high risk / high reward game. The idea is to bring the opposition on, create space and then exploit that space with fast, passing and moving. We play the high risk bit but don't even attempt to exploit the very thing we are aiming to generate. We plod up field and then go back. It's actually insane. We play high risk, low reward.

It was pointed out last season by all on here and is now being pointed out in the football press. Obvious to all. We wouldn't need a genius Manager to either adapt the current system to include the high reward bit or remove the high risk bit altogether. RM under performed last year (ironically until he scrapped the high risk bit in the play offs) and is doing so this season so far. Worryingly, he seems to be reluctant to admit, the current system doesn't work. Likely because he is defined by it. The system doesn't serve him, he serves the system. It takes some serious self reflection and some balls to accept everything you have invested in, isn't working. Not dissimilar to the Jack Stephens situation. He is too invested in the whole Captain thing, again reluctant to change it, in case of it seeming like an acceptance of failure.  

The more we as fans, claim that we were always going to be relegated, whatever, the more we infer that RM isn't failing. The less likely RM is to see it as failure, less likely to he will be inclined to change. If he changes it around against Bournemouth and we get a positive result, great. If not, with Arsenal next up, we could be 1 point from 7 games. For me, that would be the tipping point.

 

Edited September 25 by CheshireSaint

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Dman said:

The only one I've been surprised with not being able to step up is THB. The rest, it was absolutely obvious wouldn't be good enough at this level. 

I actually find it pretty comical that we allowed MArtin to have a say on signing Wood. A bang average championship player was never going to be good enough to step up. 

It might only have been 4m, but that's 4m we could have put towards a number 9 (on top of what we paid for Archer). 

I'll give the board benefit of the doubt over BBD, he had a decent enough go at it last season. 

The only thing to be grateful about regarding Wood is that Swansea turned down our ten million pound bid the season before!

[S-Clarke]

34 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Leicester fans starting to turn on Cooper, seems a bit early to me. 

He was on the back foot from day 1 due to his Forest connections, he needed to have them Top half/top 6 at this stage to appease them.

He won't last, but he's on a hiding to nothing there. Poor pick by Leicester and a poor call by him to go there. Suddenly they look more attractive due to no points deductions. Be interesting to see if the board have to act as it was toxic last night.

[Turkish]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The only thing to be grateful about regarding Wood is that Swansea turned down our ten million pound bid the season before!

Where is Ronnie Edwards? Wasn't he meant to be the next £50m defender? Not even making the bench most weeks.

[Dman]

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Where is Ronnie Edwards? Wasn't he meant to be the next £50m defender? Not even making the bench most weeks.

In fairness, I think he'll be a decent player. The step up from L1 to Prem (as shown by Bazunu) is just too great - especially for a team who are struggling. 

He'll beneift greatly when we're in the championship next season imo. 

[Gingeletiss]

1 hour ago, ally_uk said:

Seriously question how long would you give Martin would you accept relegation? 

Martin, go now. As for relegation, enjoyed the Championship (not the style of football), so going down would not bother me.

[hypochondriac]

44 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Where is Ronnie Edwards? Wasn't he meant to be the next £50m defender? Not even making the bench most weeks.

My guess is maybe they think he needs more time before being exposed? Though you'd really think he would have had more of a run out during cup games. I thought he'd be challenging THB and Bednarek when we signed him. 

[hypochondriac]

37 minutes ago, Dman said:

In fairness, I think he'll be a decent player. The step up from L1 to Prem (as shown by Bazunu) is just too great - especially for a team who are struggling. 

He'll beneift greatly when we're in the championship next season imo. 

New rb Edwards bednarek Taylor 

Is a cracking championship defence tbf. 

[gio1saints]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

The only thing to be grateful about regarding Wood is that Swansea turned down our ten million pound bid the season before!

Is that Nathan Wood, current England under 21 starting centre back that you are deriding? You’ve seen enough of him at EPL level then to decide he is not worth much? Time to write him off? 😉
 

How long incidentally do you feel you should give Saints young u21 players in the EPL to acclimatise in minutes, or probably seconds as it seems in your case? 
 

I can see a time in the not too distant future when four of the England U21 starting 11 are Saints players. When was last time that ever happened? So let’s not write of any of the kids so fast eh? Some people who know more about football than us obviously see there is quality there. 

 

Edited September 25 by gio1saints

[Dusic]

1 hour ago, ally_uk said:

Seriously question how long would you give Martin would you accept relegation? 

Genuine answer to what I think is a very difficult question:

- You have to give him a little more time because everyone is adjusting to a new level, we are settling in a lot of new players and there has been sign of improvement (Saturday we were a deflection away from a deserved win).

- I think sometime in November would be the best to judge - would have had more games against teams who will be bottom third, enough time to for all signings to have adjusted and for the team to do what RM has said - get better as time passes.

- There are also significant factors that we don't really know enough on from the outside. For example:

> Without Wilcox how invested in the possession based 'game model' are the decision makers?

> Whats the atmosphere like at Staplewood? Has to be said from the outside it seems a united group that are bought in to what the manager is doing - that is a key point.

> Who could they get, and do they think by making a change it would actually make a positive difference? No guarentee of that at all.

So clearly not as simple as many make out and as for accepting relegation or not, I personally accept that we are still more likely to be repegated than not, because there is the factor of other teams as well - in this case we have one of the weakest 3 squads so we are trying to upset the odds. The question is whether holding our nerve and sticking gives us a better chance over a long season to get 35pts?

[Mr X]

Controversial opinion it's not the players that aren't good enough as we do have five or six talented players it's the rigid style and system they are being asked to play!

I'm sure someone else would get more from the same group of players with just a change in style and more attack minded philosophy 

[danjosaint]

4 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Controversial opinion it's not the players that aren't good enough as we do have five or six talented players it's the rigid style and system they are being asked to play!

I'm sure someone else would get more from the same group of players with just a change in style and more attack minded philosophy 

Don't think that's controversial,  that's how I see it , certainly not a mid table squad but one that could squeeze 15th/16th 

[hypochondriac]

42 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Is that Nathan Wood, current England under 21 starting centre back that you are deriding? You’ve seen enough of him at EPL level then to decide he is not worth much? Time to write him off? 😉
 

How long incidentally do you feel you should give Saints young u21 players in the EPL to acclimatise in minutes, or probably seconds as it seems in your case? 
 

I can see a time in the not too distant future when four of the England U21 starting 11 are Saints players. When was last time that ever happened? So let’s not write of any of the kids so fast eh? Some people who know more about football than us obviously see there is quality there. 

 

I haven't written him off. I don't consider him acceptable as a premier league defender this season. I expect he will do an adequate job in the squad should we get relegated. I've seen nothing from him this year and from talking to Swansea fans they saw nothing from him last year to suggest he is remotely ready for the premier league. He was also never worth 10 million so that was a lucky escape. 

[saintant]

3 hours ago, Dusic said:

Seems bigger than many on here expected which is suprising because we were only out of it for a season and were abject in our last two PL seasons.

Has always been extremely obvious that it will be very difficult to stay up this season given the lack of Luton, Sheff Utd level sides and the money spent overall in the league.

Nothing has changed. We were a deflection away from being out of the bottom 3 after 5 games and yet there seems so much agitation to change as if people expected to be comfortably mid table.

Pretty much any side who has 3 managers in a season goes down as an utter shambles. If we get rid of Martin now I think that is far more likely than the scenario whereby we suddenly improve hugely and have a comfortable season.

Thought we might have scored more than 2 goals and looked more like we could win a few games than what I've seen so far.

[gio1saints]

23 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I haven't written him off. I don't consider him acceptable as a premier league defender this season. I expect he will do an adequate job in the squad should we get relegated. I've seen nothing from him this year and from talking to Swansea fans they saw nothing from him last year to suggest he is remotely ready for the premier league. He was also never worth 10 million so that was a lucky escape. 

I think If we continue with a back four he’s only playing cup matches as it is. Jan and THB will start. Thats what I was expecting this season with the odd late subs if we had CB injuries & suspensions.  

In a back five there’s more competition as Charlie Taylor can do it, BK obviously if he’s still here, Jack and of course Edwards. 

I personally doubt we will see much from him in first team action unless we are v unlucky with injuries but I do hope he gets some opportunities. How are they going to learn otherwise?   do expect mistakes and nervous errors from the kids too, especially early doors. They often just need time at that age. 

[Dusic]

13 minutes ago, saintant said:

Thought we might have scored more than 2 goals and looked more like we could win a few games than what I've seen so far.

Absolutely, if you look at it purely from an outcome perspective. But when you consider some of the massive chances we haven't taken then I think its mental we only have two goals - and hopefully over the next 5 game spell a few more of the massive chances get taken and then it doesn't look so bad.

If we hadn't created those chances to miss then it would be a greater cause of concern...and ultimately the manager doesn't miss them and a new manager wouldn't score them!

Edited September 25 by Dusic

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

I think If we continue with a back four he’s only playing cup matches as it is. Jan and THB will start. Thats what I was expecting this season with the odd late subs if we had CB injuries & suspensions.  

In a back five there’s more competition as Charlie Taylor can do it, BK obviously if he’s still here, Jack and of course Edwards. 

I personally doubt we will see much from him in first team action unless we are v unlucky with injuries but I do hope he gets some opportunities. How are they going to learn otherwise?   do expect mistakes and nervous errors from the kids too, especially early doors. They often just need time at that age. 

We don't have the luxury of giving someone like woods time to make mistakes and nervous errors this season if we want any chance of staying up. Bedding in nervous youngsters is for when you're comfortable and clear of the relegation zone. Personally I'd have preferred a more experienced option if one had been available as we already have Edwards to learn and develop as the young centre back and I'm not convinced that another one was required this year. 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Mr X said:

Controversial opinion it's not the players that aren't good enough as we do have five or six talented players it's the rigid style and system they are being asked to play!

I'm sure someone else would get more from the same group of players with just a change in style and more attack minded philosophy 

I like how you've basically said that the squad isn't the problem because 20% of our players are good enough. I disagree, I think that is a problem.

[Oldandtired]

1 hour ago, Mr X said:

Controversial opinion it's not the players that aren't good enough as we do have five or six talented players it's the rigid style and system they are being asked to play!

I'm sure someone else would get more from the same group of players with just a change in style and more attack minded philosophy 

It does seem strange how Che Adams seems to be thriving and scoring goals in Italy playing under a new manager and system.

[Charlie Wayman]

3 hours ago, ally_uk said:

Seriously question how long would you give Martin would you accept relegation? 

That is a serious question? 

 

11 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

It does seem strange how Che Adams seems to be thriving and scoring goals in Italy playing under a new manager and system.

It's the Italian league so roughly equivalent to the Championship here. Why is that strange?

[Oldandtired]

51 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

That is a serious question? 

 

It's the Italian league so roughly equivalent to the Championship here. Why is that strange?

I think different opinions are available on that. I keep hearing this stuff about how the Premier League is the best in the world, probably the top eight clubs in it are, the rest are not.

[Toadhall Saint]

1 hour ago, Oldandtired said:

It does seem strange how Che Adams seems to be thriving and scoring goals in Italy playing under a new manager and system.

You do know Che was here before RM and guess what he still didn’t score a huge amount. 

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

You do know Che was here before RM and guess what he still didn’t score a huge amount. 

under RM Che actually had the second highest goal return in a season of his career. 

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, Oldandtired said:

It does seem strange how Che Adams seems to be thriving and scoring goals in Italy playing under a new manager and system.

Serie A isn’t what it was twenty years ago and in any case, I’d want to see more than two league goals before drawing any conclusions. This time last year Hammers fans were raving about JWP, now he’s on loan at Forrest, likewise Schneiderlin.

[St Louis]

3 hours ago, Oldandtired said:

It does seem strange how Che Adams seems to be thriving and scoring goals in Italy playing under a new manager and system.

He's scored 2 league goals in 5 games.... 1 more than our (fullback) Sugawara has in the Premier League so far.
Good luck to him, but not sure he's thriving just yet! 

[Oldandtired]

2 hours ago, St Louis said:

He's scored 2 league goals in 5 games.... 1 more than our (fullback) Sugawara has in the Premier League so far.
Good luck to him, but not sure he's thriving just yet! 

Compared to our strikers he is.

[CB Fry]

Anyone would think the Che Adams hasn't previously had little flurries of scoring a few goals in a handful of games.

Basically did it for us every bloody season.

[Oldandtired]

39 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Anyone would think the Che Adams hasn't previously had little flurries of scoring a few goals in a handful of games.

Basically did it for us every bloody season.

Oh for a flurry from someone in our next few games

[CB Fry]

5 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

Oh for a flurry from someone in our next few games

Indeed. Apart from Dibling I see no flurry candidates.

[Galway saint]

I think the team looks ok ( not great but ok) with the exception of the forward quartet that aren’t going to score enough goals 

 

 

 

 

 

[Saint NL]

10 hours ago, Oldandtired said:

Oh for a flurry from someone in our next few games

As Che is Scottish, can we call it a McFlurry?

[gio1saints]

10 hours ago, Galway saint said:

I think the team looks ok ( not great but ok) with the exception of the forward quartet that aren’t going to score enough goals 

 

 

 

 

 

Ageee.

Current forwards are not converting anywhere near enough from the chances created.

Bad finishing basically. Bad luck or bad players?
 

I personally think Archer will come good but I’ve not seen anything from Cornet yet and BBD has been simply a waste of space at left wing. AA started the season nervous as fuck and has not got going at all either. 

If the finishing from this above was even below average we’d have had two extra goals maybe three from games played in my opinion. As it is it’s been crap.

We have created sufficient goalscoring chances from our play - ino - and play that’s disparaged by many atm - but just not scored from them. Forwards not delivering basically. Chances go in then the build up play looks clever, chances missed, Martin out. 😳
 

[Osvaldorama]

12 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Ageee.

Current forwards are not converting anywhere near enough from the chances created.

Bad finishing basically. Bad luck or bad players?
 

I personally think Archer will come good but I’ve not seen anything from Cornet yet and BBD has been simply a waste of space at left wing. AA started the season nervous as fuck and has not got going at all either. 

If the finishing from this above was even below average we’d have had two extra goals maybe three from games played in my opinion. As it is it’s been crap.

We have created sufficient goalscoring chances from our play - ino - and play that’s disparaged by many atm - but just not scored from them. Forwards not delivering basically. Chances go in then the build up play looks clever, chances missed, Martin out. 😳
 

Forwards are a huge problem. But so is defending like school boys. 
 

If we don’t have the forward players to outscore teams, we need to bring in a defensively solid coach to stop us leaking as many goals. Can’t be shite at both ends. 
 

[redkeith]

For me there have been definite signs of improvement.

Since Brentford there have been much less passing around at the back, and less hospital passes. I think some of this is down to having a leader at the back in Ramsdale. What a keeeper too! 

The defence looks more balanced with a natural Left back. Taylor also gives us more height when defending set pieces.  KWP has been a great servant, but Taylor and Suga are better defenders. For me KWP should be used further upfield unless one of the above are injured.

The midfield looks good with Downes and Fernandes and either Lallana or Les. They are a lot better at turning and playing forward than Smallbone and Aribo,  so that makes us much quicker in the transition. 

Dibling  is outstanding already. His through ball to Archer was brilliant, and towards the end of the game on Saturday, he was killing Ipswich, even with his legs gone, with the weight of pass to Sugawara. Their combination is giving me Channon/Golac vibes.

Archer looks great on through balls, less so on crosses. Ostenstaad was similar, and his goals dried up after Berkowitz left. I would hope that Archer gets into double figures, with Lallana, Fernandes and Dibling setting him up. 

If Aribo had cleared that corner against Forest, and not shied away from the shot on Saturday, we would be in mid table on 4 points now. 

 

 

[Badger]

8 minutes ago, redkeith said:

 

Dibling  is outstanding already. His through ball to Archer was brilliant, and towards the end of the game on Saturday, he was killing Ipswich, even with his legs gone, with the weight of pass to Sugawara. Their combination is giving me Channon/Golac vibes.

 

High praise indeed. Tremendous prospect if that comes off.

[Whitey Grandad]

45 minutes ago, redkeith said:

For me there have been definite signs of improvement.

Since Brentford there have been much less passing around at the back, and less hospital passes. I think some of this is down to having a leader at the back in Ramsdale. What a keeeper too! 

The defence looks more balanced with a natural Left back. Taylor also gives us more height when defending set pieces.  KWP has been a great servant, but Taylor and Suga are better defenders. For me KWP should be used further upfield unless one of the above are injured.

The midfield looks good with Downes and Fernandes and either Lallana or Les. They are a lot better at turning and playing forward than Smallbone and Aribo,  so that makes us much quicker in the transition. 

Dibling  is outstanding already. His through ball to Archer was brilliant, and towards the end of the game on Saturday, he was killing Ipswich, even with his legs gone, with the weight of pass to Sugawara. Their combination is giving me Channon/Golac vibes.

Archer looks great on through balls, less so on crosses. Ostenstaad was similar, and his goals dried up after Berkowitz left. I would hope that Archer gets into double figures, with Lallana, Fernandes and Dibling setting him up. 

If Aribo had cleared that corner against Forest, and not shied away from the shot on Saturday, we would be in mid table on 4 points now. 

 

 

You have not mentioned the absence of Stephens.

[franniesTache]

Our next few games are

Bournemouth (a) - think they'll beat us comfortably
Arsenal (a) - yeah we lose that
Leicester (h) - a decent chance at a win but probably a draw
City (a) - um....
Everton (h) - the one i think we're most likely to get something from of all of them
Wolves (a) - on a bad run at the moment but their starting 11 is still better than ours, maybe at best a draw.

That puts us mid nov' with most likely 3 points, and best case 5pts. Also I don't think i'd be shocked if we still only had a point at the end of that run of games.

If i'm honest i'd probably say Martin should have until Leicester game, after that it's the international break and if we're still on 1pt after it i don't see any way we can't sack him

Though the fact that I can't see us getting much out of that run shows why Martin isn't the man for the job. Realistically we should expect to beat Everton and Leicester, have a good go at Wolves and fancy getting something out Bournemouth. But i wonder how many here would believe that now? And if you don't then how can you think Martin is the right man for the job?

[Huffton]

On 25/09/2024 at 09:52, Football Special said:

Leicester fans starting to turn on Cooper, seems a bit early to me. 

Don't forget these numpties turned on Ranieri when it was obvious he wouldn't win them a second league title...

[The Kraken]

24 minutes ago, franniesTache said:

If i'm honest i'd probably say Martin should have until Leicester game, after that it's the international break and if we're still on 1pt after it i don't see any way we can't sack him

Tbf that sounds like the likely course, notwithstanding the possibility of a complete bumming at Bournemouth and/or Arsenal hurrying things along somewhat. I’d reckon he needs one win out of the next three to keep going.

[Lighthouse]

18 minutes ago, Huffton said:

Don't forget these numpties turned on Ranieri when it was obvious he wouldn't win them a second league title...

That’s not what happened at all. Most of them agreed reluctantly (but correctly) that he was at serious risk of getting them relegated and had to go.

[Saint NL]

Not quite the easiest set of fixtures, but a poor return.

[Turkish]

14 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Tbf that sounds like the likely course, notwithstanding the possibility of a complete bumming at Bournemouth and/or Arsenal hurrying things along somewhat. I’d reckon he needs one win out of the next three to keep going.

just delaying the inevitable surely? Unless there is a huge improvement we're pretty much gifting teams at least a one goal start most games with our tactics and cant score.