Russell Martin

[Fabrice29]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Yep. Managers who are their employees mates are the worst managers. 

We had 3 managers the players supposedly disliked the last time we were in this league and got relegated. 

[Fabrice29]

Just now, egg said:

These are the important stats:

0-1

0-1

1-3

0 points. 

Yeah, cool. I’m just asking a question fella.

[CB Fry]

25 minutes ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

Southampton - Most touches and most possession: 1. Jan Bednarek 2. Jack Stephens 3. Taylor Harwood-Bellis 

These players are also in the top10 players with most possession in the PL so far this season. Well done. Jan is in fact in 2nd place with 313 touches ahead of Kevin de Bruyne's measly 283 touches.

This is nothing short of sporting insanity. 

 

[SaintsBarry74]

10 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

What stat is this last one out of interest please? Stats I’ve seen have us down around mid table for shots, shots on target, XG, etc across the whole league. Are you just referring to goals scored?

GCA per 90 minutes (Goal Creating Actions) gives you an idea of how "dangerous" we are when in possession of the ball. Despite our high possession stats, the reality is that we’re struggling to turn that into real threats - hence, the low GCA numbers.

Edited September 3 by SaintsBarry74

[Fabrice29]

6 minutes ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

 

Yes, so GCA is referring to goal created actions so is directly affected by the goals we’ve scored. Shot creating actions is much higher (in number obviously and in league position) which mainly shows we’ve not been very efficient in front of goal rather than struggling to create anything.

[danjosaint]

I'm really baffled by the likes of fabrice29, I get everyone has there options and that's great but surely people can see what RM is trying to achieve is an absolute shambles, he has no idea how to compete with this squad in the epl. Yes we've issues in the squad and lacking in certain positions but over eager in other positions, He was a shit defender himself, can't set up a defence whatever league he's in and generally hasn't a fu***** clue, but his over inflated ego won't allow him to see what's square in front of him

[woodsaint1]

14 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

A classic example of Outcome Bias.

Similar to “Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc“. The fallacy that because B followed A then B must have been caused by A.

Imagine judging a team by the outcome of a whole season - a fairly big season with 49 games. Mad behaviour 😵‍💫 

[trousers]

50 minutes ago, danjosaint said:

I'm really baffled by the likes of fabrice29

Every manager we've had down the years has had a clutch of unwavering backers on here, regardless of their questionable acumen.

Whilst it's obviously good to have alternative views, I agree that some of those who defend a manager to the hilt regardless, and against a prevailing tide of discontent, can tend to come across as sycophantic, obsessively defensive and having a superiority complex. 

FWIW, I still have a hunch that Martin can turn things around this season, but I also appreciate why a lot of people don't see it that way. 

[6ft8saint]

Time will only tell. I heard a pundit tip man u to finish top 4this season however their current trajectory is similar to ours apart from 1 win. I do worry that we'll be cast aside soon but we do need to score some goals so need to start shooting more who knows it might go in and will help cover the errors if they happen 

[austsaint]

14 minutes ago, trousers said:

Every manager we've had down the years has had a clutch of unwavering backers on here, regardless of their questionable acumen.

Whilst it's obviously good to have alternative views, I agree that some of those who defend a manager to the hilt regardless, and against a prevailing tide of discontent, can tend to come across as sycophantic, obsessively defensive and having a superiority complex. 

FWIW, I still have a hunch that Martin can turn things around this season, but I also appreciate why a lot of people don't see it that way. 

Interesting point you make about the clutch of unwavering backers of Managers, although did Pellegrino have any?  Even in the case of a likeable, successful manager like Ralph, when he did lose the plot to the point where  a change seemed inevitable and urgent, there was still a "clutch of unwavering backers" ready to argue the case for him staying.   I'd add the term "contrarian" as a means of understanding why this is.  An enjoyment of swimming against the tide; arguing a case for the sake of it; a rigid belief in their opinion - a need to have the last word.  A form of sport for some perhaps.

Like you, I give Martin a (tentative) chance of turning things around.   I base that idea on seeing him make those two changes at h/t v Brentford and the withdrawing of a CB for an attacking player shortly after.   They were belated signs that he can get his best side on the pitch and reassess structure and formation.    That still leaves the massive issue of rigidly playing out from the back with the short passes and focus on possession, with all the resulting calamity and risk.      The next 4 or 5 games are crucial.....it's a knife edge really, for Martin and the Club's Prem status.

[Dark Munster]

6 hours ago, Golac's Cunning Stunts said:

This post should be made a sticky and left for everyone to read until Martin is gone

Also sent to RM for him to read.

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

7 hours ago, danjosaint said:

I'm really baffled by the likes of fabrice29, I get everyone has there options and that's great but surely people can see what RM is trying to achieve is an absolute shambles, he has no idea how to compete with this squad in the epl. Yes we've issues in the squad and lacking in certain positions but over eager in other positions, He was a shit defender himself, can't set up a defence whatever league he's in and generally hasn't a fu***** clue, but his over inflated ego won't allow him to see what's square in front of him

It's been glaringly obvious that the club have had one or two log-ins on this site over the years so someone far more superior to us lesser mortals can pop on to put us right when there's rumblings in the ranks. They'll comment on little else.

[Mr X]

7 hours ago, danjosaint said:

I'm really baffled by the likes of fabrice29, I get everyone has there options and that's great but surely people can see what RM is trying to achieve is an absolute shambles, he has no idea how to compete with this squad in the epl. Yes we've issues in the squad and lacking in certain positions but over eager in other positions, He was a shit defender himself, can't set up a defence whatever league he's in and generally hasn't a fu***** clue, but his over inflated ego won't allow him to see what's square in front of him

This 100% unfortunately, I just can't see him having the strength or nous to change things long-term he's far to stubborn and in his head he thinks it's going to click against premier league opposition when in reality we are the easiest team to play against in the league!

he might temporarily change (just enough to give false hope and keep his job) like the few games leading up to the playoffs but not long term and we need him to change long term! 

[notnowcato]

8 hours ago, egg said:

These are the important stats:

0-1

0-1

1-3

0 points. 

Except when “you get away with it” as so many here state whilst pissing on last season’s achievement. 

Edited September 4 by notnowcato

[Fabrice29]

I’m so sorry I baffle some of you. If the simple concept of not wetting the bed after 3 games of a season baffles you then may I suggest you think back to this time last year where I also did not wet the bed after 3 games of the season. 

Maybe you would also like to think back through history, for example the 5 PL seasons Saints have lost their first 3 games of the season and not been relegated. How about the last time we were promoted when we lost our first 4. Or if you want to move away from Saints, Bournemouth last year took 10 games to win a game with their manager who is doing fine.

It’s not the most difficult concept to understand. It’s not part of some club plant to put anyone right. It’s also not part of an unwavering support or desire to swim against the tide (I hate to break it to you all but some people on a message board are hardly representative of the reality). It’s just quite simply looking at the manager and team who have done quite a good job over the last 12 months and thinking 3 bad results in the premier league isn’t the worst thing in the world and probably isn’t enough to judge someone on. 

We’re going to get beat in this league and beat quite a bit. There’s no magic system, manager or way of playing that stops that. We got beat 9-0 last time ffs 😂.

Everyone calling for a change who thinks the above isn’t true really does need a dose of reality. We do however need to stop giving the ball away on the edge of the box and start taking some of our chances. Until we do that all the chat about systems and managers are pretty redundant tbh.

Edited September 4 by Fabrice29

[Whitey Grandad]

7 hours ago, woodsaint1 said:

Imagine judging a team by the outcome of a whole season - a fairly big season with 49 games. Mad behaviour 😵‍💫 

You’re right. A bigger sample gives a better indication. That shows that we finished fourth and conceded 63 goals.
 

The fallacy is in assuming that we got promoted because of the style of football and not despite it.

[Weston Super Saint]

7 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I’m so sorry I baffle some of you. If the simple concept of not wetting the bed after 3 games of a season baffles you then may I suggest you think back to this time last year where I also did not wet the bed after 3 games of the season. 

Maybe you would also like to think back through history, for example the 5 PL seasons Saints have lost their first 3 games of the season and not been relegated. How about the last time we were promoted when we lost our first 4. Or if you want to move away from Saints, Bournemouth last year took 10 games to win a game with their manager who is doing fine.

It’s not the most difficult concept to understand. It’s not part of some club plant to put anyone right. It’s also not part of an unwavering support or desire to swim against the tide (I hate to break it to you all but some people on a message board are hardly representative of the reality). It’s just quite simply looking at the manager and team who have done quite a good job over the last 12 months and thinking 3 bad results in the premier league isn’t the worst thing in the world and probably isn’t enough to judge someone on. 

We’re going to get beat in this league and beat quite a bit. There’s no magic system, manager or way of playing that stops that. We got beat 9-0 last time ffs 😂.

Everyone calling for a change who thinks the above isn’t true really does need a dose of reality. We do however need to stop giving the ball away on the edge of the box and start taking some of our chances. Until we do that all the chat about systems and managers are pretty redundant tbh.

Morning Russ. Hope you slept well.

[Whitey Grandad]

6 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I’m so sorry I baffle some of you. If the simple concept of not wetting the bed after 3 games of a season baffles you then may I suggest you think back to this time last year where I also did not wet the bed after 3 games of the season. 

Maybe you would also like to think back through history, for example the 5 PL seasons Saints have lost their first 3 games of the season and not been relegated. How about the last time we were promoted when we lost our first 4. Or if you want to move away from Saints, Bournemouth last year took 10 games to win a game with their manager who is doing fine.

It’s not the most difficult concept to understand. It’s not part of some club plant to put anyone right. It’s also not part of an unwavering support or desire to swim against the tide (I hate to break it to you all but some people on a message board are hardly representative of the reality). It’s just quite simply looking at the manager and team who have done quite a good job over the last 12 months and thinking 3 bad results in the premier league isn’t the worst thing in the world and probably isn’t enough to judge someone on. 

We’re going to get beat in this league and beat quite a bit. There’s no magic system, manager or way of playing that stops that. We got beat 9-0 last time ffs 😂.

Everyone calling for a change who thinks the above isn’t true really does need a dose of reality. We do however need to stop giving the ball away on the edge of the box and start taking some of our chances. Until we do that all the chat about systems and managers are pretty redundant tbh.

There you go again. You cannot project last season’s performance onto this. We are playing in a drastically different environment.

We keep giving the ball away on the edge of our box and even inside it not because of mistakes but because we invite the opposition to come and take it off us. 

[Football Special]

9 hours ago, egg said:

Yep. Managers who are their employees mates are the worst managers. 

 

[tdmickey3]

11 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I’m so sorry I baffle some of you. If the simple concept of not wetting the bed after 3 games of a season baffles you then may I suggest you think back to this time last year where I also did not wet the bed after 3 games of the season. 

Maybe you would also like to think back through history, for example the 5 PL seasons Saints have lost their first 3 games of the season and not been relegated. How about the last time we were promoted when we lost our first 4. Or if you want to move away from Saints, Bournemouth last year took 10 games to win a game with their manager who is doing fine.

It’s not the most difficult concept to understand. It’s not part of some club plant to put anyone right. It’s also not part of an unwavering support or desire to swim against the tide (I hate to break it to you all but some people on a message board are hardly representative of the reality). It’s just quite simply looking at the manager and team who have done quite a good job over the last 12 months and thinking 3 bad results in the premier league isn’t the worst thing in the world and probably isn’t enough to judge someone on. 

We’re going to get beat in this league and beat quite a bit. There’s no magic system, manager or way of playing that stops that. We got beat 9-0 last time ffs 😂.

Everyone calling for a change who thinks the above isn’t true really does need a dose of reality. We do however need to stop giving the ball away on the edge of the box and start taking some of our chances. Until we do that all the chat about systems and managers are pretty redundant tbh.

 

13 hours ago, qwertyell said:

I've been messing around with this game for 40-odd years. I've seen hundreds of technical, passing sides. Some much better than others. But very few as incompetent as this Saints team. The teams who overpass to their detriment have tended to do so in the opposition's final third, messing up goalscoring chances with their indulgence, but ultimately causing little immediate self harm.

We do all our overpassing 10 yards from our own goal. And when that breaks down, we lose a goal. It's not brave. It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves? If you're going to invite the press, deliberately putting your least press-resistant players under huge pressure is the mother of all hospital passes.

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

Russell isn't reinventing football. He's not a visionary. He's just executing passing football poorly - and he hides his inability to properly set up a defence behind a shrugging "philosophy, innit?".

In his four full seasons as a manager he's conceded 62, 68, 64, and 63 in the league. We're already on course for another 60+ concession orgy this season.

I don't trust the process. It's not built on anything other than bollocks.

These posts deserve to be next to each other, the 2nd one is absolutely spot on the other is....🙄

[trousers]

6 hours ago, austsaint said:

I'd add the term "contrarian" as a means of understanding why this is.  An enjoyment of swimming against the tide; arguing a case for the sake of it; a rigid belief in their opinion - a need to have the last word.  A form of sport for some perhaps.

Aye. That's probably a better way of articulating what I was attempting to convey at 1am this morning!  I also purposely refrained from using the phrase "club plant" as that would obviously be a ridiculous notion and somewhat conspiratorial... That's never happened on here, ever... 

Edited September 4 by trousers

[Fabrice29]

9 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

There you go again. You cannot project last season’s performance onto this. We are playing in a drastically different environment.

We keep giving the ball away on the edge of our box and even inside it not because of mistakes but because we invite the opposition to come and take it off us. 

I’m well aware we’re playing in a different environment but I don’t think 3 games in said environment is reasonable amount to make wild conclusions on. Just like I didn’t think a small amount of games last season was a reasonable amount of games to judge the same person on. 

[Fabrice29]

8 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

 

These posts deserve to be next to each other, the 2nd one is absolutely spot on the other is....🙄

This second post is great and plays to the crowd wonderfully. Like for example the wild conclusion there’s ’no hint of reward’ and the listing of goals conceded are all brilliant things. Of course, it doesn’t take into consideration the literal reward of promotion that it’s delivered or the reward of the goals we’ve scored but those are minor details aren’t they. 

[trousers]

34 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I’m so sorry I baffle some of you. If the simple concept of not wetting the bed after 3 games of a season baffles you then may I suggest you think back to this time last year where I also did not wet the bed after 3 games of the season. 

Maybe you would also like to think back through history, for example the 5 PL seasons Saints have lost their first 3 games of the season and not been relegated. How about the last time we were promoted when we lost our first 4. Or if you want to move away from Saints, Bournemouth last year took 10 games to win a game with their manager who is doing fine.

It’s not the most difficult concept to understand. It’s not part of some club plant to put anyone right. It’s also not part of an unwavering support or desire to swim against the tide (I hate to break it to you all but some people on a message board are hardly representative of the reality). It’s just quite simply looking at the manager and team who have done quite a good job over the last 12 months and thinking 3 bad results in the premier league isn’t the worst thing in the world and probably isn’t enough to judge someone on. 

We’re going to get beat in this league and beat quite a bit. There’s no magic system, manager or way of playing that stops that. We got beat 9-0 last time ffs 😂.

Everyone calling for a change who thinks the above isn’t true really does need a dose of reality. We do however need to stop giving the ball away on the edge of the box and start taking some of our chances. Until we do that all the chat about systems and managers are pretty redundant tbh.

If only there was a way of resisting a call for a managerial change (like myself) without coming across as pompous and self-righteous (hopefully not like myself)...

Edited September 4 by trousers

[Fabrice29]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

If only there was a way of resisting a call for a managerial change (like myself) without coming across as pompous self-righteous (hopefully not like myself)...

That can’t be as fun though. Anyway Lucy Pinder is calling and I’ve got to get to training. Sorry, I mean work. 👋

[Give it to Ron]

3 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I’m well aware we’re playing in a different environment but I don’t think 3 games in said environment is reasonable amount to make wild conclusions on. Just like I didn’t think a small amount of games last season was a reasonable amount of games to judge the same person on. 

Do you believe he has the tools to play this way in the Prem or like a few of us want to tweak it a bit?

He came in and gelled it after Mad Nate and did what was asked get promoted so he deserves and I hope gets the chance to stay here for a while but something needs to change.

We have bought in some good players who I think after a run of games will do well Les, Fernandes, Cornet - if I have one criticism is he is too loyal and that’s being harsh but needs to look at starting side and tactics after this break.

Do our back 5 have enough ability to play this way in prem?

[trousers]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

That can’t be as fun though. Anyway Lucy Pinder is calling and I’ve got to get to training. Sorry, I mean work. 👋

Ha! My money was on you being Lucy but close enough...

[badgerx16]

34 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Except when “you get away with it” as so many here state whilst pissing on last season’s achievement. 

The 3 relegated teams will always have the "best" squads in the Championship and guess what, we finished 4th, probably the absolute minimum pre-season target, and then managed to win through a 3 match knockout tournament, whilst having the 11th worst defence in the division. The fabled 'unbeaten run' saw us lose ground by 1 point to Leicester over that period, and gain nothing on Leeds. If you want to look at form, going back to the end of last season we lost 3 of our last 4 league games, so we are currently 6 losses out of 7.

As a former professional defender, RM has shown throughout his managerial career that he is incapable of organising the defence of his teams.

People get frustrated with Russball because (1) obsession with possession with no end product, (2) inability to defend, (3) pedestrian passing and movement in the final third., (4) persisting with finding starting places for players who are clearly out of their depth.

 

I hope he finds a way turn things round, but feel he is too stubborn and wedded to his 'philosophy'.

[tdmickey3]

5 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

This second post is great and plays to the crowd wonderfully. Like for example the wild conclusion there’s ’no hint of reward’ and the listing of goals conceded are all brilliant things. Of course, it doesn’t take into consideration the literal reward of promotion that it’s delivered or the reward of the goals we’ve scored but those are minor details aren’t they. 

I know its been said many, many, many times but we are in a completely different league where the quality is miles and miles better then the championship, absolutely miles.

We conceded 63 goals, yes 63 in the lower league playing this ridiculous " RM philosophy" football, we won promotion because our squad was one of the top 3 in the division not because of the "philosophy". if was because of it then why did it not happen for RM with Swansea?   Quality of squad that`s why.

Now we are in the premier league our squad is in the bottom 6?? so the outcome is obvious to most people, we will get relegated if he does not adapt, how many goals we will concede is anyone`s guess but it wont make good reading for Saints fans.

He has to change or he has to go at some point before its to late

[Whitey Grandad]

26 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

This second post is great and plays to the crowd wonderfully. Like for example the wild conclusion there’s ’no hint of reward’ and the listing of goals conceded are all brilliant things. Of course, it doesn’t take into consideration the literal reward of promotion that it’s delivered or the reward of the goals we’ve scored but those are minor details aren’t they. 

There you go again.

[notnowcato]

One below expected performance level v Forest, disappointing that was at home to a possible relegation rival. 
 

Some piss poor ball retention in crucial areas where we were punished and some sloppy finishing.

The starting XI is evolving to a point where we could see Ramsdale, ABK, Sugawara, Taylor, Ugochuckwu, Cornet, Lallana, Archer and Diaz (although formation may dictate otherwise 🤔😂).  This number of changes would take some time to bed in to any team, no matter what the philosophy / style of play. Give it a chance. 
 

It’s been 3 games. We’re going to have to stay positive to give this team the opportunity. 
 

Awaits the hilarious riposte of “thanks Russ” or “is that you Lucy?”

Edited September 4 by notnowcato

[Nordic Saint]

10 hours ago, Fabrice29 said:

Yeah, cool. I’m just asking a question fella.

Who speaks like that?

Fabrice29 - SaintsWeb

Edited September 4 by Nordic Saint

[ErwinK1961]

9 hours ago, danjosaint said:

I'm really baffled by the likes of fabrice29, I get everyone has there options and that's great but surely people can see what RM is trying to achieve is an absolute shambles, he has no idea how to compete with this squad in the epl. Yes we've issues in the squad and lacking in certain positions but over eager in other positions, He was a shit defender himself, can't set up a defence whatever league he's in and generally hasn't a fu***** clue, but his over inflated ego won't allow him to see what's square in front of him

Everyone can have their opinion, but people should see my opinion is right. Seems fair.

[ErwinK1961]

8 hours ago, trousers said:

Every manager we've had down the years has had a clutch of unwavering backers on here, regardless of their questionable acumen.

Whilst it's obviously good to have alternative views, I agree that some of those who defend a manager to the hilt regardless, and against a prevailing tide of discontent, can tend to come across as sycophantic, obsessively defensive and having a superiority complex. 

FWIW, I still have a hunch that Martin can turn things around this season, but I also appreciate why a lot of people don't see it that way. 

Bit like you with Ralph?

[trousers]

2 hours ago, notnowcato said:

One below expected performance level v Forest, disappointing that was at home to a possible relegation rival. 
 

Some piss poor ball retention in crucial areas where we were punished and some sloppy finishing.

The starting XI is evolving to a point where we could see Ramsdale, ABK, Sugawara, Taylor, Ugochuckwu, Cornet, Lallana, Archer and Diaz (although formation may dictate otherwise 🤔😂).  This number of changes would take some time to bed in to any team, no matter what the philosophy / style of play. Give it a chance. 
 

It’s been 3 games. We’re going to have to stay positive to give this team the opportunity. 
 

Awaits the hilarious riposte of “thanks Russ” or “is that you Lucy?”

"Give it a chance".... agreed, and I think *most* fans would class themselves in that bracket at the moment. Seemingly, the difference between, say, me and your good self, is that I value opinions on both sides of the debate, even those that are at either extremes. If someone feels that 'Russball' is doomed to failure and thus doesn't feel that it's worth 'giving him a chance' then that's a perfectly valid viewpoint in my book, and not something that I feel the need to insessantly contest. What I don't get is this obsession with attempting to ridicule, dismiss or scoff at other points of view. We all think differently. Hoorah! That's something to embrace rather than endlessly attempt to 'prove' someone wrong. Maybe that's why my marriage has lasted 35 years.... ("Yes dear, that's a very good point. Now, do you mind if I switch over to watch The Chase?")

Edited September 4 by trousers

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

Bit like you with Ralph?

Indeed. My point precisely. I fully admit that my initial sychopancy with Ralph clouded my judgement and, as you'll astutely recall, I admitted as such towards the end of his tenure and joined the call for him to go. So, yep, thanks for underlining my point...

[TheAlehouseBrawlers]

From what I read the vast majority of posters are not calling for the manager’s head after 3 games at all and just reacting to what’s happening on the pitch in the here and now.

Many are saying that they hope it changes/adapts to better suit this league, if little changes the outcome is inevitable. I hope and actually believe it will for the better once the new additions are embedded (and with less fannying around at the back 😉)

Edited September 4 by TheAlehouseBrawlers
Typo

[notnowcato]

18 minutes ago, trousers said:

"Give it a chance".... agreed, and I think *most* fans would class themselves in that bracket at the moment. Seemingly, the difference between, say, me and your good self, is that I value opinions on both sides of the debate, even those that are at either extremes. If someone feels that 'Russball' is doomed to failure and thus doesn't feel that it's worth 'giving him a chance' then that's a perfectly valid viewpoint in my book. What I don't get is this obsession with attempting to ridicule, dismiss or scoff at other points of view. We all think differently. Hoorah! That's something to embrace rather than endlessly attempt to 'prove' someone wrong. Maybe that's why my marriage has lasted 35 years.... ("Yes dear, that's a very good point. Now, do you mind if switch over to watch The Chase?")

Agreed, that’s why I’ve thought for quite some time that your nickname should be Splinters not Trousers. 😉

Opinions are like arseholes… and I’m not saying that in a condescending or scoffing at way, because if you knew me you’d know that’s not my style. I do find the extreme versions of opinions laughable and probably waste more of my time on them than I should. Equally I’ve been called some very unpleasant things on here, that doesn’t bother me in the slightest, I’d rather engage in a way of mutual respect but that’s not always the case. 

Edited September 4 by notnowcato

[notnowcato]

2 hours ago, TheAlehouseBrawlers said:

It's been glaringly obvious that the club have had one or two log-ins on this site over the years so someone far more superior to us lesser mortals can pop on to put us right when there's rumblings in the ranks. They'll comment on little else.

Which users were they?

[gio1saints]

10 hours ago, CB Fry said:

This is nothing short of sporting insanity. 

 

You are probably right. What RM and SR are doing is sporting insanity. I’m delighted at the epithet. 

Whats maybe going to upset you and the anti RM bandwagon that’s rolling rather nicely is that RM will probably find that description inspiring. 
 

Anyone anywhere that’s ever tried to do things differently has been called mad at some point. And usually they get run out of town ( or burnt at the stake!). Does it mean RM and Saints are destined to fail - as you and so many others on here predict? Probably. 
 

We are very very likely to get relegated. And the nub of this issue to me is how do you want to go down? With principles and ideals you are prepared to proudly live and die by - or like last time in a no idea chaotic mess? 

I do t feel Saints fans should get too upset by the defeats as long as there seems to be some progress and development. It’s easy to be blind to that when we lost theee in a row - but certain things already areevident and - Tyler is a star, Yuki is a star, Mateus has quality, Ramsay is seriously better, RM has hooked AA and WS off at Halftime!!! I see these small individual things all clicking at some point. My patience is just longer than most of the responses I will get in here of course. And my acceptance that either way we will prob go down. So I’m going to enjoy seeing how it pans out and not join the booing and nastiness that’s inevitable. 
Dont be frustrated and angry. Be proud Saints. 
 

 

[Challenger]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Morning Russ. Hope you slept well.

Er,no I've been up all night.

[beatlesaint]

When Bednerek and Stephens are no. 1 & 2 for most touches of the ball you know something isn't right. You dont need any other stats to back that up, the two least technical and capable with the ball at their feet (outfield) is frightening.

Edited September 4 by beatlesaint

[SaintsBarry74]

11 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

When Bednerek and Stephens are no. 1 & 2 for most touches of the ball you know something isn't right. You dont need any other stats to back that up, the two least technical and capable with the ball at their feet (outfield) is frightening.

It’s basically this that’s padding RM’s possession stats.
 

I get that it’s only been three games, but these early numbers are already in line with last season’s RM-ball pattern, and that was against weaker opposition. Lots of huffing and puffing with little end product to show for it.
 

If we keep up this up, a 0-9 battering is almost guaranteed to be looming around the corner.

[Midfield_General]

2 hours ago, notnowcato said:

The starting XI is evolving to a point where we could see Ramsdale, ABK, Sugawara, Taylor, Ugochuckwu, Cornet, Lallana, Archer and Diaz (although formation may dictate otherwise 🤔😂).  This number of changes would take some time to bed in to any team, no matter what the philosophy / style of play. Give it a chance. 

I actually think that's what's causing the frustration though. 

On paper that looks like a side that has got a decent chance of being competitive. But no side can be competitive if they're gifting the opposition goals all the time, and it feels like what they're being told to do - rather than their quality as a team or individuals - is what's causing the gifting of the goals.

If you put that team in a straightforward 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 with instructions not to take the risks at the back and play a bit more like Nuno or Frank did, two established PL managers, would they have a better chance of getting something out of these games? We don't know, but I think the frustration comes from not yet being able to find out.

If anything, that's what's not being given a chance - just the more conventional, 'keep it tight', play-to-your-players-strengths and be hard to beat approach that most (not all) promoted clubs tend to apply when they're trying to bed into this league. It feels to many like we're trying to be way too clever to an almost contrarian degree, and that's what's not giving us a chance in games we might otherwise get something from. 

I'm not having a go at you or the people defending Russell btw - I also like him and I want him to succeed, I think the opprobrium from some is way over the top and the petty name-calling is pathetic. I just think that's where the frustration is coming from at the moment, and I can understand that too. 

Edited September 4 by Midfield_General

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

"Give it a chance".... agreed, and I think *most* fans would class themselves in that bracket at the moment. Seemingly, the difference between, say, me and your good self, is that I value opinions on both sides of the debate, even those that are at either extremes. If someone feels that 'Russball' is doomed to failure and thus doesn't feel that it's worth 'giving him a chance' then that's a perfectly valid viewpoint in my book, and not something that I feel the need to insessantly contest. What I don't get is this obsession with attempting to ridicule, dismiss or scoff at other points of view. We all think differently. Hoorah! That's something to embrace rather than endlessly attempt to 'prove' someone wrong. Maybe that's why my marriage has lasted 35 years.... ("Yes dear, that's a very good point. Now, do you mind if switch over to watch The Chase?")

35 years ? You have barely started.

[CB Fry]

1 hour ago, gio1saints said:

You are probably right. What RM and SR are doing is sporting insanity. I’m delighted at the epithet. 

Whats maybe going to upset you and the anti RM bandwagon that’s rolling rather nicely is that RM will probably find that description inspiring. 
 

Anyone anywhere that’s ever tried to do things differently has been called mad at some point. And usually they get run out of town ( or burnt at the stake!). Does it mean RM and Saints are destined to fail - as you and so many others on here predict? Probably. 
 

We are very very likely to get relegated. And the nub of this issue to me is how do you want to go down? With principles and ideals you are prepared to proudly live and die by - or like last time in a no idea chaotic mess? 

I do t feel Saints fans should get too upset by the defeats as long as there seems to be some progress and development. It’s easy to be blind to that when we lost theee in a row - but certain things already areevident and - Tyler is a star, Yuki is a star, Mateus has quality, Ramsay is seriously better, RM has hooked AA and WS off at Halftime!!! I see these small individual things all clicking at some point. My patience is just longer than most of the responses I will get in here of course. And my acceptance that either way we will prob go down. So I’m going to enjoy seeing how it pans out and not join the booing and nastiness that’s inevitable. 
Dont be frustrated and angry. Be proud Saints. 
 

 

I think the issue is over-glorfying a system that isn't working as some noble set of "principles and ideals".

Do me a favour. 

[saintant]

1 hour ago, gio1saints said:

You are probably right. What RM and SR are doing is sporting insanity. I’m delighted at the epithet. 

Whats maybe going to upset you and the anti RM bandwagon that’s rolling rather nicely is that RM will probably find that description inspiring. 
 

Anyone anywhere that’s ever tried to do things differently has been called mad at some point. And usually they get run out of town ( or burnt at the stake!). Does it mean RM and Saints are destined to fail - as you and so many others on here predict? Probably. 
 

We are very very likely to get relegated. And the nub of this issue to me is how do you want to go down? With principles and ideals you are prepared to proudly live and die by - or like last time in a no idea chaotic mess? 

I do t feel Saints fans should get too upset by the defeats as long as there seems to be some progress and development. It’s easy to be blind to that when we lost theee in a row - but certain things already areevident and - Tyler is a star, Yuki is a star, Mateus has quality, Ramsay is seriously better, RM has hooked AA and WS off at Halftime!!! I see these small individual things all clicking at some point. My patience is just longer than most of the responses I will get in here of course. And my acceptance that either way we will prob go down. So I’m going to enjoy seeing how it pans out and not join the booing and nastiness that’s inevitable. 
Dont be frustrated and angry. Be proud Saints. 
 

 

Is there nothing in between? Is the stark choice either what we are seeing now or what we saw when we last went down? From what I read many are arguing that RM needs to change his principles because they don't believe they'll work. We'll find out soon enough. However, his way is not the only way - plenty of good managers are showing that you can win football matches without this obsession to retain possession at all costs. He will live or die by his methods and that is his choice - my prediction is that he'll be gone sooner rather than later and this will be a damaging blot on his CV and will severely reduce his chances of getting another job above the Championship. Maybe, if that's what transpires, he'll have no regrets and you have to give him a little credit because he is sticking by what he believes in - for me, it's just that I don't believe in the project. 

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, gio1saints said:

You are probably right. What RM and SR are doing is sporting insanity. I’m delighted at the epithet. 

Whats maybe going to upset you and the anti RM bandwagon that’s rolling rather nicely is that RM will probably find that description inspiring. 
 

Anyone anywhere that’s ever tried to do things differently has been called mad at some point. And usually they get run out of town ( or burnt at the stake!). Does it mean RM and Saints are destined to fail - as you and so many others on here predict? Probably. 
 

We are very very likely to get relegated. And the nub of this issue to me is how do you want to go down? With principles and ideals you are prepared to proudly live and die by - or like last time in a no idea chaotic mess? 

I do t feel Saints fans should get too upset by the defeats as long as there seems to be some progress and development. It’s easy to be blind to that when we lost theee in a row - but certain things already areevident and - Tyler is a star, Yuki is a star, Mateus has quality, Ramsay is seriously better, RM has hooked AA and WS off at Halftime!!! I see these small individual things all clicking at some point. My patience is just longer than most of the responses I will get in here of course. And my acceptance that either way we will prob go down. So I’m going to enjoy seeing how it pans out and not join the booing and nastiness that’s inevitable. 
Dont be frustrated and angry. Be proud Saints. 
 

 

I don't think there is an anti-RM bandwagon at all, I for one want him to succeed as much as any other fan and always have done. I don't want to be a club that chops and changes managers every year or so. But that doesn't mean we cannot call out issues or voice concerns over what we see in front of us.

What I take issue with on your post, and a lot of your posts, is that you're calling what he's doing as revolutionary, something different, no one has ever tried it. That narrative is repeated by Martin himself and seems to filter throughout the club and it's really cringeworthy.

Let's just take a step back and work out what he's trying to do -

Dominate possession and create an extra man when on the ball out of defence. Now tell me no other team has ever tried that before? It's honestly nothing new, unique or magical. Barca did it, Man City do it, Arsenal did it in the Wenger years. 

What is the big difference between us and those guys? Player quality. In the Championship we could get away, to a degree, because our players ability was higher than that of the other sides in the league. We're now doing the same in a league with much, much higher quality than we have. 

I'm not sat here saying abandon all passing football, but there needs to be an acknowledgement and an awareness within our coaching that our quality is significantly lower than that of who we are facing. Bednarek's touch isn't tight enough for example, so what we're providing is an absolutely perfect press trigger for opposition sides when we retreat back. They know that Bednarek/Stephens aren't comfortable on the ball when pressured, so as soon as we go back they swarm on our weakest ball playing players. Brentford played it perfectly. They use our back passing as a trigger to condense and tie us in knots, and that's where we give the ball away and get ourselves in a muddle.

That's not reinventing football, it's being stupid and not being honest about your own limitations.

Edited September 4 by S-Clarke

[Gloucester Saint]

3 hours ago, notnowcato said:

One below expected performance level v Forest, disappointing that was at home to a possible relegation rival. 
 

Some piss poor ball retention in crucial areas where we were punished and some sloppy finishing.

The starting XI is evolving to a point where we could see Ramsdale, ABK, Sugawara, Taylor, Ugochuckwu, Cornet, Lallana, Archer and Diaz (although formation may dictate otherwise 🤔😂).  This number of changes would take some time to bed in to any team, no matter what the philosophy / style of play. Give it a chance. 
 

It’s been 3 games. We’re going to have to stay positive to give this team the opportunity. 
 

Awaits the hilarious riposte of “thanks Russ” or “is that you Lucy?”

It would take time to bed in, but the status quo is leaking easy mistakes and is unlikely to come right whereas at least if you start with the strongest line up and way of playing which suits the above players, there’s more of a chance that familiarity happens and a few results string together. Unlikely we will stay up this season anyway but if we did the manager can then build on it and upgrade the CBs for example to ones better with the ball. It’s what we did 2012-16, gradually phasing out Jos and others, until Les Reed got too much power and autonomy unchecked. Until then, better to be pragmatic and get the best out of what you to put club above philosophy.

Edited September 4 by Gloucester Saint

[notnowcato]

1 minute ago, Gloucester Saint said:

It would take time to bed in, but the status quo is leaking easy mistakes and is unlikely to come right whereas at least if you start with the strongest line up and way of playing, there’s more of a chance that familiarity happens and a few results string together. 

I think there’s a chance that the mistakes we have seen in the 3 league games so far may not occur as often going forward. Time will tell.