Russell Martin

[Nordic Saint]

On 19/05/2023 at 10:29, Nordic Saint said:

Martin's managerial career absolutely reeks of mediocrity. He took MK Dons to 19th and 13th in League One. He then took Swansea to 15th and 10th. His teams have a terrible defensive record as they keep getting caught out passing the ball around at the back. 
 

He's never going to change, is he? He's found it's the easiest way to bump up your passing stats and those are what got him this job, not the results of football matches.

Edited September 3 by Nordic Saint

[notnowcato]

1 hour ago, Charlie Wayman said:

There is nothing wrong with our system of passing the ball back and forth between the goalie and defenders, it's not Martin's fault that our back four seem to be as thick as bricks, have the awareness of a sloth and the judgement of Craig Revel-Horwood. There's nothing difficult about it. Surely there must be some sort of expertise in awareness and reaction training that could be called upon. 

I like this version of Charlie… and to add to the points… that fucking dog shit pass from Stephens followed by him taking Jan’s space was such a basic, fundamental error that it would’ve been punished in pretty much every level of football, not just in the Premier League. 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Is that fair? We had a new manager, a bunch of new players and a new system for them to learn. After a hesitant start we eventually got into our stride. Had we been able to hit the ground running on day one of the season we might have walked the league. 

You've missed the point (just for once...). I was responding to the "unbeaten run" comment, that's all. My viewpoint is that said run became counterproductive. Other viewpoints are available of course. It's not mandatory to agree with eachother....

Edited September 3 by trousers

[trousers]

11 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

I like this version of Charlie… 

Nah... much prefer this version....

[BarberSaint]

This might be a long post. I haven't liked a lot of our managers (in part at least): Adkins, spouted platitudes and buzzwords, Pochettino came across a bit smug, Koeman lost too many games when we should have finished far higher, Hughes was dour, Pelllegrino useless, I liked Puel until I had to watch the borefests, etc). Quite liked Selles, but he was crap. Doing alright now, though so good luck to him.  I think we should have made Jones our press officer.

I don't like spreadsheet managers: Ralph or the current person who has no redeeming features - see some Swansea fans' views, for example and so on; why is there a cult around the 'celebrity' of a football manager/coach? He should be invisible and the players and games the focus.  I can see nothing that demonstrates in real-life, living, football that "If you do X, then Y will happen". Unless it's a case of saying that keeping the ball in your area is great because that's the danger zone for your team and where the opposition want the ball to be, preferably with them as it helps with the scoring goals bit of the game, as does our desire to help them out by giving them the ball occasionally so they don't feel left out. Perhaps the club did take on that person's request that we be nicer to opposing fans and teams and so have implemented this 'philosophy' to show what a caring club it it  is?

Sometimes there's a case for dropping someone down in standard to allow them to 'improve' but usually, and after a certain level you usually improve by playing in a more demanding fashion/league. So I don't understand those who say that e.g. "Bednarek has been improved by ...x" when all that was done was that he was playing against worst players who helped make him look average. At best. I can't see how he'd improve by playing at half-speed or against someone who can't jump or whatever.

I didn't like the comment after Cardiff that went  "..but I have to consider..." because it negated all the work done in winning an entertaining game that was clearly between two 'lesser' or reserve sides and everyone saw that, but they saw a lot of things besides.

I cannot understand the idea of playing 'his way'. What is it? What makes it special and unique and guarantees success above all else while entertaining everyone and getting them off their seats? As far as I'm aware he hasn't invented football, he hasn't invented tackling etc. He hasn't adapted keeping the ball in such a way that hasn't been done ever since teams started doing it probably before Cruyff and total football.  I can see some benefit in video analysis of previous performances.  I'd 

So, I don't like him. I don't know what 'magic' he possesses that no one else does and apart from smelling bullshit, I can't see much in any of all this 'theory' that isn't anything different from what's gone before and what happens in a park game on a Sunday.   

 

I'll read the rest of the posts on this but is there any chance that everyone could stop blathering on about him 'adapting'? He won't, he's said it innumerable times and your blinkered insistence on ignoring this gets annoying.  Changing a formation to 1-2-3-4 vs 2-4-3-1 doesn't change the way teams play if the instruction is always 'do not pass the ball more than 5 yards'. Let's wait and see if he tries to ensure that players who can play are allowed to not play and not made to follow his 'philosophy'.

 

[Tommy Mulgrew]

I think you might like a cold shower, BarberSaint.

[Whitey Grandad]

28 minutes ago, BarberSaint said:

This might be a long post. I haven't liked a lot of our managers (in part at least): Adkins, spouted platitudes and buzzwords, Pochettino came across a bit smug, Koeman lost too many games when we should have finished far higher, Hughes was dour, Pelllegrino useless, I liked Puel until I had to watch the borefests, etc). Quite liked Selles, but he was crap. Doing alright now, though so good luck to him.  I think we should have made Jones our press officer.

I don't like spreadsheet managers: Ralph or the current person who has no redeeming features - see some Swansea fans' views, for example and so on; why is there a cult around the 'celebrity' of a football manager/coach? He should be invisible and the players and games the focus.  I can see nothing that demonstrates in real-life, living, football that "If you do X, then Y will happen". Unless it's a case of saying that keeping the ball in your area is great because that's the danger zone for your team and where the opposition want the ball to be, preferably with them as it helps with the scoring goals bit of the game, as does our desire to help them out by giving them the ball occasionally so they don't feel left out. Perhaps the club did take on that person's request that we be nicer to opposing fans and teams and so have implemented this 'philosophy' to show what a caring club it it  is?

Sometimes there's a case for dropping someone down in standard to allow them to 'improve' but usually, and after a certain level you usually improve by playing in a more demanding fashion/league. So I don't understand those who say that e.g. "Bednarek has been improved by ...x" when all that was done was that he was playing against worst players who helped make him look average. At best. I can't see how he'd improve by playing at half-speed or against someone who can't jump or whatever.

I didn't like the comment after Cardiff that went  "..but I have to consider..." because it negated all the work done in winning an entertaining game that was clearly between two 'lesser' or reserve sides and everyone saw that, but they saw a lot of things besides.

I cannot understand the idea of playing 'his way'. What is it? What makes it special and unique and guarantees success above all else while entertaining everyone and getting them off their seats? As far as I'm aware he hasn't invented football, he hasn't invented tackling etc. He hasn't adapted keeping the ball in such a way that hasn't been done ever since teams started doing it probably before Cruyff and total football.  I can see some benefit in video analysis of previous performances.  I'd 

So, I don't like him. I don't know what 'magic' he possesses that no one else does and apart from smelling bullshit, I can't see much in any of all this 'theory' that isn't anything different from what's gone before and what happens in a park game on a Sunday.   

 

I'll read the rest of the posts on this but is there any chance that everyone could stop blathering on about him 'adapting'? He won't, he's said it innumerable times and your blinkered insistence on ignoring this gets annoying.  Changing a formation to 1-2-3-4 vs 2-4-3-1 doesn't change the way teams play if the instruction is always 'do not pass the ball more than 5 yards'. Let's wait and see if he tries to ensure that players who can play are allowed to not play and not made to follow his 'philosophy'.

 

Spot on. How is it that so many of us can see all this yet he’s still in a job?

11 minutes ago, Tommy Mulgrew said:

I think you might like a cold shower, BarberSaint.

Maybe, but he’s not wrong.

[Oldandtired]

Surely it's simple. He has his philosophy. We have lost our first three matches playing his way. It is apparent to most people that we are going to lose a lot more playing his way.

Someone somewhere has to make him see this before it's too late. As I said it's simple...

 

[ErwinK1961]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

A classic example of Outcome Bias.

Similar to “Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc“. The fallacy that because B followed A then B must have been caused by A.

Does the same apply to the weekend then?

B (conceding a goal) followed A (giving the ball away), then B must have been caused by A. 

Or are the rules different to suit your views?

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, ErwinK1961 said:

Does the same apply to the weekend then?

B (conceding a goal) followed A (giving the ball away), then B must have been caused by A. 

Or are the rules different to suit your views?

That’s a single event.

The key word here is ‘must’. Giving the ball away does not inevitably lead to a goal even though it makes it more likely. 

[beatlesaint]

19 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

Someone somewhere has to make him see this before it's too late. 

 

Calling Lucy Pinder to the forum......

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 hours ago, Galway saint said:

if you don’t have any possession you cannot win the game

No, but you’d probably get a 0-0 against us. 

[lambtiss]

1 hour ago, BarberSaint said:

This might be a long post. I haven't liked a lot of our managers (in part at least): Adkins, spouted platitudes and buzzwords, Pochettino came across a bit smug, Koeman lost too many games when we should have finished far higher, Hughes was dour, Pelllegrino useless, I liked Puel until I had to watch the borefests, etc). Quite liked Selles, but he was crap. Doing alright now, though so good luck to him.  I think we should have made Jones our press officer.

I don't like spreadsheet managers: Ralph or the current person who has no redeeming features - see some Swansea fans' views, for example and so on; why is there a cult around the 'celebrity' of a football manager/coach? He should be invisible and the players and games the focus.  I can see nothing that demonstrates in real-life, living, football that "If you do X, then Y will happen". Unless it's a case of saying that keeping the ball in your area is great because that's the danger zone for your team and where the opposition want the ball to be, preferably with them as it helps with the scoring goals bit of the game, as does our desire to help them out by giving them the ball occasionally so they don't feel left out. Perhaps the club did take on that person's request that we be nicer to opposing fans and teams and so have implemented this 'philosophy' to show what a caring club it it  is?

Sometimes there's a case for dropping someone down in standard to allow them to 'improve' but usually, and after a certain level you usually improve by playing in a more demanding fashion/league. So I don't understand those who say that e.g. "Bednarek has been improved by ...x" when all that was done was that he was playing against worst players who helped make him look average. At best. I can't see how he'd improve by playing at half-speed or against someone who can't jump or whatever.

I didn't like the comment after Cardiff that went  "..but I have to consider..." because it negated all the work done in winning an entertaining game that was clearly between two 'lesser' or reserve sides and everyone saw that, but they saw a lot of things besides.

I cannot understand the idea of playing 'his way'. What is it? What makes it special and unique and guarantees success above all else while entertaining everyone and getting them off their seats? As far as I'm aware he hasn't invented football, he hasn't invented tackling etc. He hasn't adapted keeping the ball in such a way that hasn't been done ever since teams started doing it probably before Cruyff and total football.  I can see some benefit in video analysis of previous performances.  I'd 

So, I don't like him. I don't know what 'magic' he possesses that no one else does and apart from smelling bullshit, I can't see much in any of all this 'theory' that isn't anything different from what's gone before and what happens in a park game on a Sunday.   

 

I'll read the rest of the posts on this but is there any chance that everyone could stop blathering on about him 'adapting'? He won't, he's said it innumerable times and your blinkered insistence on ignoring this gets annoying.  Changing a formation to 1-2-3-4 vs 2-4-3-1 doesn't change the way teams play if the instruction is always 'do not pass the ball more than 5 yards'. Let's wait and see if he tries to ensure that players who can play are allowed to not play and not made to follow his 'philosophy'.

 

Out of interest, is there any manager that you did like? 

[Weston Super Saint]

38 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

No, but you’d probably get a 0-0 against us. 

Nope. They would at least have possession when it's their turn to start the match.

Likely just the one we'd concede though.

[derry]

How long before our opponents use their kick off to pass to our back four then press.

[Owen The Saints]

What are the chances of him realising the dominant stat is goals scored?

[trousers]

42 minutes ago, derry said:

How long before our opponents use their kick off to pass to our back four then press.

Ha! That would actually be quite amusing... Come on Ten Hag... you know it makes sense...

[ally_uk]

I'd rather have flaming Chatgpt in charge than this c@@t..... 

Massively out of depth everyone can see it... 

[beatlesaint]

14 minutes ago, ally_uk said:

I'd rather have flaming Chatgpt in charge than this c@@t..... 

Massively out of depth everyone can see it... 

Thetes a difference between being out of your depth and failure to learn. Now if he spend the international break tweaking a few simple things that make us less suicidal at the back then fair enough. But if we blindly carry on with him enjoying the good moments in another 3 goal loss to United then Ipswich then yeah, out of his depth and too stubborn to adjust makes him a busted flush.

[Guided Missile]

32 minutes ago, ally_uk said:

I'd rather have flaming Chatgpt in charge than this c@@t.....  

Chat GPT's analysis:

Quote

Southampton Football Club can adopt several tactics to improve their performance and start winning games. Here are some key strategies:

1. Strengthen Defensive Organization

• Solidify the Backline: Focus on defensive solidity by organizing the backline better. Southampton could consider deploying an extra defensive midfielder or adopting a more conservative approach, especially against stronger teams. Reducing the frequency of defensive lapses and maintaining concentration throughout the match can prevent conceding soft goals.
• Pressing and Counter-Pressing: Implement a structured pressing system where the team presses as a unit, making it difficult for opponents to build up play from the back. Effective counter-pressing after losing possession can prevent the opponent from exploiting counter-attacks.

2. Improve Set-Piece Efficiency

• Offensive Set-Pieces: Southampton can focus on improving their execution of set-pieces, including corners and free-kicks. Developing a variety of set-piece routines and ensuring accurate deliveries can lead to more scoring opportunities.
• Defensive Set-Pieces: The team should also work on defending set-pieces better by ensuring tight marking and organizing the defense effectively to clear danger.

3. Tactical Flexibility

• Switching Formations: Southampton can benefit from tactical flexibility by switching formations depending on the opponent. For instance, a 4-2-3-1 for more control in midfield or a 3-5-2 to solidify the defense while offering width through wing-backs.
• In-Game Adjustments: The ability to adapt tactics during the game, such as shifting to a more attacking formation when chasing a goal or solidifying defense when leading, can make a significant difference.

4. Focus on Transitional Play

• Quick Transitions: Southampton should work on improving the speed and efficiency of their transitions from defense to attack. Quick counter-attacks, using the pace of wingers and forwards, can exploit spaces left by opponents.
• Ball Retention and Control: Enhancing the team's ability to retain possession and control the tempo of the game can help in dictating play, reducing pressure on the defense, and creating more chances.

5. Player Utilization and Rotation

• Optimal Squad Rotation: Ensuring that key players are rotated to avoid fatigue, while also giving opportunities to younger or less-used players, can maintain energy levels and reduce the risk of injuries.
• Utilizing Strengths: The manager should focus on utilizing the strengths of key players, such as getting the best out of creative midfielders or ensuring strikers are supported with quality service.

6. Psychological Preparation and Team Morale

• Mental Resilience: Working on the psychological aspects, such as building confidence and mental resilience, can help the team recover from setbacks during games and maintain focus.
• Building Team Spirit: Fostering a strong sense of unity and team spirit can enhance performance, with players fighting harder for each other on the pitch.

7. Targeted Recruitment

• Strengthening Weak Areas: During transfer windows, the club should focus on bringing in players who can address specific weaknesses, whether that’s a commanding central defender, a creative midfielder, or a clinical striker.
• Youth Development: Continuing to develop and integrate young talent from the academy can provide fresh energy and new options for the team.

8. Analyzing Opponents

• Pre-Match Analysis: Detailed analysis of upcoming opponents to identify their weaknesses and tailor the game plan accordingly can give Southampton a competitive edge.
• Post-Match Reviews: Regularly reviewing matches to understand what went wrong and what can be improved can help in fine-tuning tactics and strategy.

By implementing these strategies, Southampton can improve their performances on the pitch, increase their chances of winning games, and move up the league table.

 

[pingpong]

18 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

Chat GPT's analysis:

 

Or to summarise:

Be better at defending.

Be better at attacking.

Be better without the ball.

Be better with the ball.

Genius. I wonder if russell martin has considered this strategy?

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Owen The Saints said:

What are the chances of him realising the dominant stat is goals scored?

Very low. If you asked him where the goal was he’d say “What’s a goal?”

[Whitey Grandad]

33 minutes ago, pingpong said:

Or to summarise:

Be better at defending.

Be better at attacking.

Be better without the ball.

Be better with the ball.

Genius. I wonder if russell martin has considered this strategy?

Keep it quiet or they’ll all be at it.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, pingpong said:

Or to summarise:

Be better at defending.

Be better at attacking.

Be better without the ball.

Be better with the ball.

Genius. I wonder if russell martin has considered this strategy?

It's on his list, just as soon as we've mastered short passes for no gains.

[qwertyell]

I've been messing around with this game for 40-odd years. I've seen hundreds of technical, passing sides. Some much better than others. But very few as incompetent as this Saints team. The teams who overpass to their detriment have tended to do so in the opposition's final third, messing up goalscoring chances with their indulgence, but ultimately causing little immediate self harm.

We do all our overpassing 10 yards from our own goal. And when that breaks down, we lose a goal. It's not brave. It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves? If you're going to invite the press, deliberately putting your least press-resistant players under huge pressure is the mother of all hospital passes.

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

Russell isn't reinventing football. He's not a visionary. He's just executing passing football poorly - and he hides his inability to properly set up a defence behind a shrugging "philosophy, innit?".

In his four full seasons as a manager he's conceded 62, 68, 64, and 63 in the league. We're already on course for another 60+ concession orgy this season.

I don't trust the process. It's not built on anything other than bollocks.

[derry]

13 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

I've been messing around with this game for 40-odd years. I've seen hundreds of technical, passing sides. Some much better than others. But very few as incompetent as this Saints team. The teams who overpass to their detriment have tended to do so in the opposition's final third, messing up goalscoring chances with their indulgence, but ultimately causing little immediate self harm.

We do all our overpassing 10 yards from our own goal. And when that breaks down, we lose a goal. It's not brave. It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves? If you're going to invite the press, deliberately putting your least press-resistant players under huge pressure is the mother of all hospital passes.

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

Russell isn't reinventing football. He's not a visionary. He's just executing passing football poorly - and he hides his inability to properly set up a defence behind a shrugging "philosophy, innit?".

In his four full seasons as a manager he's conceded 62, 68, 64, and 63 in the league. We're already on course for another 60+ concession orgy this season.

I don't trust the process. It's not built on anything other than bollocks.

Nailed it, not much more to say!!!

[ErwinK1961]

6 hours ago, BarberSaint said:

This might be a long post. I haven't liked a lot of our managers (in part at least): Adkins, spouted platitudes and buzzwords, Pochettino came across a bit smug, Koeman lost too many games when we should have finished far higher, Hughes was dour, Pelllegrino useless, I liked Puel until I had to watch the borefests, etc). Quite liked Selles, but he was crap. Doing alright now, though so good luck to him.  I think we should have made Jones our press officer.

I don't like spreadsheet managers: Ralph or the current person who has no redeeming features - see some Swansea fans' views, for example and so on; why is there a cult around the 'celebrity' of a football manager/coach? He should be invisible and the players and games the focus.  I can see nothing that demonstrates in real-life, living, football that "If you do X, then Y will happen". Unless it's a case of saying that keeping the ball in your area is great because that's the danger zone for your team and where the opposition want the ball to be, preferably with them as it helps with the scoring goals bit of the game, as does our desire to help them out by giving them the ball occasionally so they don't feel left out. Perhaps the club did take on that person's request that we be nicer to opposing fans and teams and so have implemented this 'philosophy' to show what a caring club it it  is?

Sometimes there's a case for dropping someone down in standard to allow them to 'improve' but usually, and after a certain level you usually improve by playing in a more demanding fashion/league. So I don't understand those who say that e.g. "Bednarek has been improved by ...x" when all that was done was that he was playing against worst players who helped make him look average. At best. I can't see how he'd improve by playing at half-speed or against someone who can't jump or whatever.

I didn't like the comment after Cardiff that went  "..but I have to consider..." because it negated all the work done in winning an entertaining game that was clearly between two 'lesser' or reserve sides and everyone saw that, but they saw a lot of things besides.

I cannot understand the idea of playing 'his way'. What is it? What makes it special and unique and guarantees success above all else while entertaining everyone and getting them off their seats? As far as I'm aware he hasn't invented football, he hasn't invented tackling etc. He hasn't adapted keeping the ball in such a way that hasn't been done ever since teams started doing it probably before Cruyff and total football.  I can see some benefit in video analysis of previous performances.  I'd 

So, I don't like him. I don't know what 'magic' he possesses that no one else does and apart from smelling bullshit, I can't see much in any of all this 'theory' that isn't anything different from what's gone before and what happens in a park game on a Sunday.   

 

I'll read the rest of the posts on this but is there any chance that everyone could stop blathering on about him 'adapting'? He won't, he's said it innumerable times and your blinkered insistence on ignoring this gets annoying.  Changing a formation to 1-2-3-4 vs 2-4-3-1 doesn't change the way teams play if the instruction is always 'do not pass the ball more than 5 yards'. Let's wait and see if he tries to ensure that players who can play are allowed to not play and not made to follow his 'philosophy'.

 

Sorry, you didn’t like Koeman because he should have finished higher than 6th?  Or the guy that got us double promotions because he quoted the man in the mirror?

This thread gets more mental by the day.

[Dark Munster]

29 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

This in a nutshell. We could argue one way or the other about the merits of high risk - high reward tactics. But RussBall is high risk - low reward.

It's f*cking lunacy.

[Fabrice29]

6 hours ago, Oldandtired said:

Surely it's simple. He has his philosophy. We have lost our first three matches playing his way. It is apparent to most people that we are going to lose a lot more playing his way.

Someone somewhere has to make him see this before it's too late. As I said it's simple...

 

If we keep giving the ball away on the edge of our box we will lose lots of games, yes. That isn't "his way though" and there is no "way" that guarantees we don't lose lots of games at this level in our first season back. 

[Whitey Grandad]

14 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

If we keep giving the ball away on the edge of our box we will lose lots of games, yes. That isn't "his way though" and there is no "way" that guarantees we don't lose lots of games at this level in our first season back. 

It’s a direct consequence of playing “his way”.

[qwertyell]

11 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

If we keep giving the ball away on the edge of our box we will lose lots of games, yes. That isn't "his way though" and there is no "way" that guarantees we don't lose lots of games at this level in our first season back. 

I'm sure the plan isn't to keep giving the ball away on the edge of our box. But that's what's happening. And keeps happening at every side he coaches.

Either he's unable to coach players to successfully play to his tactical demands, or his tactical demands are unrealistic at our level and doomed to failure. Neither scenario is particularly comforting.

[Give it to Ron]

3 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

I'm sure the plan isn't to keep giving the ball away on the edge of our box. But that's what's happening. And keeps happening at every side he coaches.

Either he's unable to coach players to successfully play to his tactical demands, or his tactical demands are unrealistic at our level and doomed to failure. Neither scenario is particularly comforting.

….. and as for that bollox of strikers 60yards apart sheer madness!

[saintant]

55 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

I've been messing around with this game for 40-odd years. I've seen hundreds of technical, passing sides. Some much better than others. But very few as incompetent as this Saints team. The teams who overpass to their detriment have tended to do so in the opposition's final third, messing up goalscoring chances with their indulgence, but ultimately causing little immediate self harm.

We do all our overpassing 10 yards from our own goal. And when that breaks down, we lose a goal. It's not brave. It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves? If you're going to invite the press, deliberately putting your least press-resistant players under huge pressure is the mother of all hospital passes.

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

Russell isn't reinventing football. He's not a visionary. He's just executing passing football poorly - and he hides his inability to properly set up a defence behind a shrugging "philosophy, innit?".

In his four full seasons as a manager he's conceded 62, 68, 64, and 63 in the league. We're already on course for another 60+ concession orgy this season.

I don't trust the process. It's not built on anything other than bollocks.

Very good post!

[derry]

Better not mention it but Manchester City played a 4-2-5 formation in a friendly in Japan V Bayern Munich. For three minutes Ederson move up into the back 3. 

[Gloucester Saint]

57 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

I've been messing around with this game for 40-odd years. I've seen hundreds of technical, passing sides. Some much better than others. But very few as incompetent as this Saints team. The teams who overpass to their detriment have tended to do so in the opposition's final third, messing up goalscoring chances with their indulgence, but ultimately causing little immediate self harm.

We do all our overpassing 10 yards from our own goal. And when that breaks down, we lose a goal. It's not brave. It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves? If you're going to invite the press, deliberately putting your least press-resistant players under huge pressure is the mother of all hospital passes.

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

Russell isn't reinventing football. He's not a visionary. He's just executing passing football poorly - and he hides his inability to properly set up a defence behind a shrugging "philosophy, innit?".

In his four full seasons as a manager he's conceded 62, 68, 64, and 63 in the league. We're already on course for another 60+ concession orgy this season.

I don't trust the process. It's not built on anything other than bollocks.

Spot on.

There is definite potential with Martin - good communicator and seemingly people manager, and has a habit of improving players individually. Where it’s falling down at times is this whole ‘philosophy’ fake stuff. Just select your team, recruit and take your approach according to the opposition, your league position, strengths/weaknesses and budget.

Reminds of when Fergie asked ‘can anyone tell me what the West Ham way actually means?’

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, qwertyell said:

I've been messing around with this game for 40-odd years. I've seen hundreds of technical, passing sides. Some much better than others. But very few as incompetent as this Saints team. The teams who overpass to their detriment have tended to do so in the opposition's final third, messing up goalscoring chances with their indulgence, but ultimately causing little immediate self harm.

We do all our overpassing 10 yards from our own goal. And when that breaks down, we lose a goal. It's not brave. It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves? If you're going to invite the press, deliberately putting your least press-resistant players under huge pressure is the mother of all hospital passes.

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

Russell isn't reinventing football. He's not a visionary. He's just executing passing football poorly - and he hides his inability to properly set up a defence behind a shrugging "philosophy, innit?".

In his four full seasons as a manager he's conceded 62, 68, 64, and 63 in the league. We're already on course for another 60+ concession orgy this season.

I don't trust the process. It's not built on anything other than bollocks.

Excellent post

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, qwertyell said:

I've been messing around with this game for 40-odd years. I've seen hundreds of technical, passing sides. Some much better than others. But very few as incompetent as this Saints team. The teams who overpass to their detriment have tended to do so in the opposition's final third, messing up goalscoring chances with their indulgence, but ultimately causing little immediate self harm.

We do all our overpassing 10 yards from our own goal. And when that breaks down, we lose a goal. It's not brave. It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves? If you're going to invite the press, deliberately putting your least press-resistant players under huge pressure is the mother of all hospital passes.

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

Russell isn't reinventing football. He's not a visionary. He's just executing passing football poorly - and he hides his inability to properly set up a defence behind a shrugging "philosophy, innit?".

In his four full seasons as a manager he's conceded 62, 68, 64, and 63 in the league. We're already on course for another 60+ concession orgy this season.

I don't trust the process. It's not built on anything other than bollocks.

That's a great post mate, you nailed it all there. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

2 hours ago, qwertyell said:

I've been messing around with this game for 40-odd years. I've seen hundreds of technical, passing sides. Some much better than others. But very few as incompetent as this Saints team. The teams who overpass to their detriment have tended to do so in the opposition's final third, messing up goalscoring chances with their indulgence, but ultimately causing little immediate self harm.

We do all our overpassing 10 yards from our own goal. And when that breaks down, we lose a goal. It's not brave. It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves? If you're going to invite the press, deliberately putting your least press-resistant players under huge pressure is the mother of all hospital passes.

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

Russell isn't reinventing football. He's not a visionary. He's just executing passing football poorly - and he hides his inability to properly set up a defence behind a shrugging "philosophy, innit?".

In his four full seasons as a manager he's conceded 62, 68, 64, and 63 in the league. We're already on course for another 60+ concession orgy this season.

I don't trust the process. It's not built on anything other than bollocks.

This post should be made a sticky and left for everyone to read until Martin is gone

[Nieldy]

I don't know if some else has mentioned in this post,but it makes you wonder if he his going down the Vincent kompany route,I will play this possession football with all the good stats to get myself a job at a more attractive club,just like Kompany has.Another one who refused to change the style of football for the good of Burnley.I might be totally and utterly wrong thou.

[S-Clarke]

2 minutes ago, Nieldy said:

I don't know if some else has mentioned in this post,but it makes you wonder if he his going down the Vincent kompany route,I will play this possession football with all the good stats to get myself a job at a more attractive club,just like Kompany has.Another one who refused to change the style of football for the good of Burnley.I might be totally and utterly wrong thou.

Kompany only got that Bayern Munich job because he was called Vincent Kompany. He wouldn't have got it for any other reason.

If Martin goes the same way, he'll end up rocking up at Preston or Hull - somewhere like that.

[Harry_SFC]

He's clearly a good man manager and more than likely a good coach. Totally agree with the comments above though. We play high risk football around our own box but then decide to play low risk football on the rare occasions we manage to get towards the oppositions 18 yard box. Although I do believe the latter is potentially down to lack of quality in the final third. Lallana, Dibling and Fernandes all seem to be showing signs of positive improvement in that regard. 

We know Martin will not change his style. Hopefully he can tweak it enough so it gives us a chance of staying up because if he does nothing, we will be down this side of the new year. 

[E_H_Saints]

There was a time we were ruthless and took emotion out of it.  (Nigel replaced by Poch) It wasn't a popular decision but in the end he exceeding our expectations.  If we carry on playing in a way that we would expect to see Man City play (United wish they could play) and continue to lose we may need to let him go and bring someone in. Our defense is either young with years to go or at the end of the careers not at their peaks.  So the idea of playing out from the back and not making a mistake is unrealistic no matter how much they train.  I for one am hoping this will turn into something like last year, we started awful and then things started to click but how many matches can we afford to lose before it's too late to climb out.  

Would 4/10 be acceptable at the moment?

[Harry_SFC]

8 minutes ago, E_H_Saints said:

There was a time we were ruthless and took emotion out of it.  (Nigel replaced by Poch) It wasn't a popular decision but in the end he exceeding our expectations.  If we carry on playing in a way that we would expect to see Man City play (United wish they could play) and continue to lose we may need to let him go and bring someone in. Our defense is either young with years to go or at the end of the careers not at their peaks.  So the idea of playing out from the back and not making a mistake is unrealistic no matter how much they train.  I for one am hoping this will turn into something like last year, we started awful and then things started to click but how many matches can we afford to lose before it's too late to climb out.  

Would 4/10 be acceptable at the moment?

We got away with it last year because our players were better than most other teams players. Sadly we don't have that luxury this season and every team knows exactly how we are going to play before we even get out there. Man City have the players to pull it off - we don't and RM needs to accept that (he won't because he's deluded)

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Harry_SFC said:

He's clearly a good man manager and more than likely a good coach. Totally agree with the comments above though. We play high risk football around our own box but then decide to play low risk football on the rare occasions we manage to get towards the oppositions 18 yard box. Although I do believe the latter is potentially down to lack of quality in the final third. Lallana, Dibling and Fernandes all seem to be showing signs of positive improvement in that regard. 

We know Martin will not change his style. Hopefully he can tweak it enough so it gives us a chance of staying up because if he does nothing, we will be down this side of the new year. 

I'm not even sure this is true. From what I see he wants to be best friends with all his players and that is not healthy. In my opinion he is far too close to the players and this often clouds his judgement and decision making. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Last season I thought Ipswich were the best attacking side. I thought Leicester had the most talent. But for control of games, it was us. There were ups and downs (and Downes), not least some slumps and the end of season switch when Baz got injured.

Martin's belief is that we'll win enough games using his system. He's looking to get that possession linked with moving opponents, quick movement and transition and lots of chances. He said early on that there may be some thumping in there. But he's often said there's no plan B, just variations on Plan A. Which is what we've had.

Martin's not going to change that. It's what his career is built on. We're a stepping stone as his previous clubs have been. No doubt the Kompany appointment strengthens his resolve to trust his approach. But then, we had the Ralph playbook, and Selles counter, so they aren't alone in sticking to their guns.

There are arguments on whether it was the individual talent that got us over that line. But when it worked, it was impressive. And I say impressive having liked, and preferred, things like RalphBall, PochBall and the systems of attack by previous managers.

We've all seen the issues with RussBall not working. Further, in games where we could have finished teams off, our possession allows resets.

Martin sees the possession stats, the chances we do create, and the errors preventing his system operating across a game. His comments in the past show he shares a lot of the frustrations we do. But frustration hasn't resulted in resolution. We see the same issues as last season. That's a worrying sign that there are serious issues with it, after this length of time.

And we've the perspective of seeing managers leading us to relegation, with narrowly losing, error generating tactics.

So I share a lot of the reservations with a number of posts. As a club, we seem to have our fair share of egos thinking they are geniuses.

But there is a system there that does draw team in, passes at pace and looks really good and controlled. We've moved to a dysfunctional version of it again, which is what Martin has to sort out. Again.

We've strengthened, and we'll see what changes Martin brings to the next games.

[SaintsBarry74]

4 hours ago, qwertyell said:

I've been messing around with this game for 40-odd years. I've seen hundreds of technical, passing sides. Some much better than others. But very few as incompetent as this Saints team. The teams who overpass to their detriment have tended to do so in the opposition's final third, messing up goalscoring chances with their indulgence, but ultimately causing little immediate self harm.

We do all our overpassing 10 yards from our own goal. And when that breaks down, we lose a goal. It's not brave. It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves? If you're going to invite the press, deliberately putting your least press-resistant players under huge pressure is the mother of all hospital passes.

It's not even useful - on the rare occasions we beat the press, we slowly walk the ball up the wings, turn around, and come back again. All that risk for absolutely no hint of a reward.

Russell isn't reinventing football. He's not a visionary. He's just executing passing football poorly - and he hides his inability to properly set up a defence behind a shrugging "philosophy, innit?".

In his four full seasons as a manager he's conceded 62, 68, 64, and 63 in the league. We're already on course for another 60+ concession orgy this season.

I don't trust the process. It's not built on anything other than bollocks.

This post is spot on, and it’s not just the eye test that makes it accurate - the stats back it up too.

"It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves?"

Southampton - Most touches and most possession: 1. Jan Bednarek 2. Jack Stephens 3. Taylor Harwood-Bellis 

These players are also in the top10 players with most possession in the PL so far this season. Well done. Jan is in fact in 2nd place with 313 touches ahead of Kevin de Bruyne's measly 283 touches.

 

3 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

This in a nutshell. We could argue one way or the other about the merits of high risk - high reward tactics. But RussBall is high risk - low reward.

It's f*cking lunacy.

High risk / low reward perfectly explains this next stat, we have the 2nd highest possession% in the league, but we also have the 2nd lowest Goal Creating Chances per 90 min., only Crystal Palace is worse. 

Edited September 3 by SaintsBarry74

[egg]

On 19/05/2023 at 14:57, egg said:

Selective stats. You forget to mention that only 4 championship teams conceded more goals than Swansea, and that 3 of those got relegated. The bloke seems incapable of coaching a solid defence.

 

On 19/05/2023 at 15:10, egg said:

Lots of possession is pointless if you concede loads of goals when out of possession! If his team scores loads more than it concedes then your point is  valid. The reality though is that the goals for AND against are the only relevant stat in football. Looking at that stat, and where Swansea have finished in the league, confirms to me that possession counts for nothing, and suggests that something is fundamentally wrong in how he sets his teams.

 

On 19/05/2023 at 17:24, egg said:

There's a danger of being blinded by the possession and goals scored stats. Sure, his teams score goals, but I repeat that possession and goals scored are irrelevant if a team concedes as many as it scores.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that Swansea concede lots of goals because of their players. If it is the case, we haven't got better here. 

We'll have to agree to differ on this. 

 

What we're seeing was predictable before he arrived. Quite interesting looking back in the thread at people's views. 

We got away with it last year, just, but I can't see him turning this around as much as I want him to. The ability just isn't there, and the approach so flawed. 

[egg]

35 minutes ago, saintant said:

I'm not even sure this is true. From what I see he wants to be best friends with all his players and that is not healthy. In my opinion he is far too close to the players and this often clouds his judgement and decision making. 

Yep. Managers who are their employees mates are the worst managers. 

[Fabrice29]

15 minutes ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

This post is spot on, and it’s not just the eye test that makes it accurate - the stats back it up too.

"It mostly defies logic - why are our least technically gifted players monopolising possession among themselves?"

Southampton - Most touches and most possession: 1. Jan Bednarek 2. Jack Stephens 3. Taylor Harwood-Bellis 

These players are also in the top10 players with most possession in the PL so far this season. Well done. Jan is in fact in 2nd place with 313 touches ahead of Kevin de Bruyne's measly 283 touches.

 

High risk / low reward perfectly explains this next stat, we have the 2nd highest possession% in the league, but we also have the 2nd lowest Goal Creating Chances per 90 min., only Crystal Palace is worse. 

What stat is this last one out of interest please? Stats I’ve seen have us down around mid table for shots, shots on target, XG, etc across the whole league. Are you just referring to goals scored?

[egg]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

What stat is this last one out of interest please? Stats I’ve seen have us down around mid table for shots, shots on target, XG, etc across the whole league. Are you just referring to goals scored?

These are the important stats:

0-1

0-1

1-3

0 points.