Russell Martin

[notnowcato]

40 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Poyet got them promoted from L1 to the Championship and Hughton got them promoted to the PL and kept them there initially.

Jones was a caretaker for a couple of games so actually 4/6 have done an excellent job which in modern football is a pretty impressive ratio.

Their key has been the long term role of CEO Paul Barber who is very experienced in football and has been the constant there since 2012. In that time we have had Reed, Kruger, Rogers, Semmens (and Ankersen) and now Parsons doing that role.

What Dusic said..

 

[notnowcato]

28 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

I’ve tried to anticipate some worst case scenarios for Saints- and Russell. Long thread so turn away now if you hate these type of posts. Here’s one scenario : 

 

No wins by mid- late September and all this conjecture about if he will be poached to be overtaken by a  “who will be our next Manager” thread. 

It’s not some amazing revelation that we will probably struggle - with whoever is in charge.  It’s very very likely - but also predictable that an impatient and growing mob will not be able to control themselves or their anger- which will be directed at him. And SR. 

RM will take full responsibility as a Leader should, but it will be nasty and personal - as usual. This forum will be sick with the volumes of personal abuse being written. 

 It won’t matter how we lost, the style of play or any of that bravery stuff. Or even if there are signs of improvement. There will be NO acclimatisation to the EPL time allowed. It’s likely to be instant results or out.

That hypothetical scenario may not be too far off the truth, and indeed might be bookies favourite if one could bet on such negative eventuality.

I ask myself is that what we really want to see this season? How can it be avoided? 

IF RM does not start winning immediately would SR & fans persist with loyalty? Flip a coin. Wait til Xmas probably. But some fans (you know the ones) will prob demand he’s out sooner. 

It’s a tough gig going up and even just surviving but I think there’s an equal chance Saints are going to make it harder if the chose to twist rather than stick with RM.

In the subsequent scenario that’s he gone by Cmas or sooner we could end up with a three manager season: 

Hypothetical Manager #2 might be more of the same - a 30year old from Portugal, the Bundesliga or some obscure but done well lately La Liga team - and after he’s failed and is sacked a rescue mission exercise to recruit #3 Potter or similar might take place. Or they might go straight to a Potter type. 
 

My current evaluation ( subject to change and results of course) is that the chances of RM making it past Xmas are less than 50% - imo. Much less than 50% if we are averaging less than 1pt a game or much more than 50% if we average 1.5-2pts per game and are at top end of the league at Xmas. 

No matter what the managerial changes that may or may not occur, there's a very good chance we will be relegated at the end of the 24/25 season.  RM is still growing as a manager, we know he can get a team out of the Championship given the right players, ideally he's given the space to experience a full Premier League season so if we are relegated he gets to at least the following Christmas to show we're on target to be promoted back in to the PL.  Second season in the PL with the right resources will be where he has to really prove himself.

 

You also don't need to engage with ChatGPT to predict how some of the users on this forum will react following our, likely, opening day defeat. 

Edited June 11 by notnowcato

[Saint_clark]

6 hours ago, notnowcato said:

Fuck me, how selfish of you to sit on this revelation.

 

Nice try you pretentious cock. I wasn't saying the fact he hasn't managed in the Prem is what I was holding back from saying, it was that I think he's getting ahead of himself in terms of his own ability to judge players. 

Hooiveld was a much better player in the championship than Stephens was this season - and he was fucking trash in the Prem. We've seen the gulf in quality work both ways, when coming down as well with the likes of Bednarek and Aarmstrong looking like world beaters after being garbage in the Prem. 

If we go into next season with Martin thinking Stephens and Smallbone will be "top, top players" for us, and signing a stop gap keeper till Bazunu comes straight back into the team, then we are coming straight back down again. 

[notnowcato]

35 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Nice try you pretentious cock. I wasn't saying the fact he hasn't managed in the Prem is what I was holding back from saying, it was that I think he's getting ahead of himself in terms of his own ability to judge players. 

Now now, calm down dear, you’ll give yourself a hernia. The revelation was quite literally the sentence you wrote. 
 

Time will tell with Will. Jack hasn’t established himself as a premier league player and probably isn’t going to. RM could be blowing smoke up their arses for all we know. 
 

 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

4 hours ago, gio1saints said:

I’ve tried to anticipate some worst case scenarios for Saints- and Russell. Long thread so turn away now if you hate these type of posts. Here’s one scenario : 

 

No wins by mid- late September and all this conjecture about if he will be poached to be overtaken by a  “who will be our next Manager” thread. 

It’s not some amazing revelation that we will probably struggle - with whoever is in charge.  It’s very very likely - but also predictable that an impatient and growing mob will not be able to control themselves or their anger- which will be directed at him. And SR. 

RM will take full responsibility as a Leader should, but it will be nasty and personal - as usual. This forum will be sick with the volumes of personal abuse being written. 

 It won’t matter how we lost, the style of play or any of that bravery stuff. Or even if there are signs of improvement. There will be NO acclimatisation to the EPL time allowed. It’s likely to be instant results or out.

That hypothetical scenario may not be too far off the truth, and indeed might be bookies favourite if one could bet on such negative eventuality.

I ask myself is that what we really want to see this season? How can it be avoided? 

IF RM does not start winning immediately would SR & fans persist with loyalty? Flip a coin. Wait til Xmas probably. But some fans (you know the ones) will prob demand he’s out sooner. 

It’s a tough gig going up and even just surviving but I think there’s an equal chance Saints are going to make it harder if the chose to twist rather than stick with RM.

In the subsequent scenario that’s he gone by Cmas or sooner we could end up with a three manager season: 

Hypothetical Manager #2 might be more of the same - a 30year old from Portugal, the Bundesliga or some obscure but done well lately La Liga team - and after he’s failed and is sacked a rescue mission exercise to recruit #3 Potter or similar might take place. Or they might go straight to a Potter type. 
 

My current evaluation ( subject to change and results of course) is that the chances of RM making it past Xmas are less than 50% - imo. Much less than 50% if we are averaging less than 1pt a game or much more than 50% if we average 1.5-2pts per game and are at top end of the league at Xmas. 

SR have already looked at the manager options, before the play off final. They were sticking with Russ.

With that done, we know what's going to be underpinning our play next season. And also on the players he wants to keep (returning loaners included). Other players may have their own plans.

We don't know is how much Martin will be relying on the 3 at the back tactic, compared to the back 4. If we can keep the sharpness of the latter in the 3 at the back, then we may avoid cuffings. If it's the former, then Martin said to expect drubbings, even when in the Championship. Overall, he has faith in it to deliver enough points.

To do that, he's going to need the players. Last season he made do with no Tella replacement, an injured Stewart and too light in midfield. SR will be giving him plenty of time, if they send out our squad like that next season.

When we get the players in, is also important. Lots of late changes last season, which cost us in September. And that was outgoings, as much as anything. If SR do very late transfer business this time round, it's unfair to pin opening defeats and getting arrivals up to speed, entirely at Martin's door.

It will be challenging, and some fans will express dissatisfaction immediately ( if they wait that long). It's emotive and we all want us to do well. I'd not be taking it as a barometer of the manager's future.

Unless the dressing room is lost, we are stranded at the foot of the table getting hammered 9 nil every week, the stadium is empty and the underlying data says there's no hope, then I imagine Martin will be around for the duration.

If SR buy into his philosophy only to go back down, then they can reassess on a rebuild then. If they can keep Martin from a Barcelona job, following the Kompany model. 🙂

[Dark Munster]

14 hours ago, notnowcato said:

You also don't need to engage with ChatGPT to predict how some of the users on this forum will react following our, likely, opening day defeat. 

"The reactions on the Saintsweb forum following a likely opening day defeat for Southampton FC could vary widely, as with any fan community after a disappointing result. Here's a range of potential reactions you might see:

1. Disappointment and Frustration: Many fans might express disappointment and frustration, especially if the defeat was unexpected or against a perceived weaker opponent. They might vent their frustration about individual player performances, managerial decisions, or the team's overall strategy.

2. Calls for Change: Some fans might use the defeat as a platform to call for changes within the club, such as new signings, a change in tactics, or even a change in management if they feel the current setup isn't working.

3. Analytical Discussions: There could be analytical discussions where fans break down what went wrong tactically, which players underperformed, and what improvements need to be made for future matches. This might involve detailed analysis of specific moments in the game and comparisons to previous performances.

4. Optimism and Support: Despite the defeat, there will likely be fans who remain optimistic and supportive of the team. They might encourage fellow fans to stay positive and focus on the long season ahead, emphasizing that it's just one game and there's plenty of time to bounce back.

5. Blame Game: Unfortunately, some fans might resort to blaming individuals, whether it's players, coaches, or the club's management. This could lead to heated debates and arguments within the forum.

6. Humor and Memes: To lighten the mood, you might also see some fans using humor and creating memes to cope with the disappointment. This could involve poking fun at the situation or finding ways to laugh at themselves as fans.

Overall, the reaction will likely be a mix of emotions, ranging from disappointment and frustration to optimism and humor, with varying degrees of analysis and calls for change."

[Dark Munster]

14 hours ago, gio1saints said:

It’s not some amazing revelation that we will probably struggle - with whoever is in charge.  It’s very very likely - but also predictable that an impatient and growing mob will not be able to control themselves or their anger- which will be directed at him. And SR. 

RM will take full responsibility as a Leader should, but it will be nasty and personal - as usual. This forum will be sick with the volumes of personal abuse being written. 

IF RM does not start winning immediately would SR & fans persist with loyalty? Flip a coin. Wait til Xmas probably. But some fans (you know the ones) will prob demand he’s out sooner. 

Sigh. You again seem to find it difficult to distinguish between expectations in the Championship vs. the PL.

In the former we had one of the best squads, and certainly one of the most expensive (both in signings and wages). So of course RM was expected to take us up. Fortunately he did very well in the playoffs, aided by a timely loss of our incompetent first choice GK (RM himself admitted he was an idiot not to have played AM earlier). 

In the PL it's a completely different kettle of fish. As it stands we have the worst squad in the league, except for Ipswich and possibly Leicester. If we don't significantly strengthen I for one won't blame RM if we inevitably go back down again.

SR? That's a different matter.

[SNSUN]

42 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

"The reactions on the Saintsweb forum following a likely opening day defeat for Southampton FC could vary widely, as with any fan community after a disappointing result. Here's a range of potential reactions you might see:

1. Disappointment and Frustration: Many fans might express disappointment and frustration, especially if the defeat was unexpected or against a perceived weaker opponent. They might vent their frustration about individual player performances, managerial decisions, or the team's overall strategy.

2. Calls for Change: Some fans might use the defeat as a platform to call for changes within the club, such as new signings, a change in tactics, or even a change in management if they feel the current setup isn't working.

3. Analytical Discussions: There could be analytical discussions where fans break down what went wrong tactically, which players underperformed, and what improvements need to be made for future matches. This might involve detailed analysis of specific moments in the game and comparisons to previous performances.

4. Optimism and Support: Despite the defeat, there will likely be fans who remain optimistic and supportive of the team. They might encourage fellow fans to stay positive and focus on the long season ahead, emphasizing that it's just one game and there's plenty of time to bounce back.

5. Blame Game: Unfortunately, some fans might resort to blaming individuals, whether it's players, coaches, or the club's management. This could lead to heated debates and arguments within the forum.

6. Humor and Memes: To lighten the mood, you might also see some fans using humor and creating memes to cope with the disappointment. This could involve poking fun at the situation or finding ways to laugh at themselves as fans.

Overall, the reaction will likely be a mix of emotions, ranging from disappointment and frustration to optimism and humor, with varying degrees of analysis and calls for change."

I'd like to think I'd be 4 but most likely I'll be 6.

[gio1saints]

4 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Sigh. You again seem to find it difficult to distinguish between expectations in the Championship vs. the PL.

In the former we had one of the best squads, and certainly one of the most expensive (both in signings and wages). So of course RM was expected to take us up. Fortunately he did very well in the playoffs, aided by a timely loss of our incompetent first choice GK (RM himself admitted he was an idiot not to have played AM earlier). 

In the PL it's a completely different kettle of fish. As it stands we have the worst squad in the league, except for Ipswich and possibly Leicester. If we don't significantly strengthen I for one won't blame RM if we inevitably go back down again.

SR? That's a different matter.

Nice post ( except the “ sigh” bit) and you’ve covered the most likely response range of most fair minded fans out there. Though you may have missed out the fact that not every fan will have the same expectations as you. 

On the question of “expectations” we will all disagree. But that’s still not an excuse for the abuse. This season we may well get battered at times - and most people will have that outcome in their range of Saints expectations - but for those that don’t……

 

Edited June 12 by gio1saints

[tdmickey3]

2 hours ago, gio1saints said:

Nice post ( except the “ sigh” bit) and you’ve covered the most likely response range of most fair minded fans out there. Though you may have missed out the fact that not every fan will have the same expectations as you. 

On the question of “expectations” we will all disagree. But that’s still not an excuse for the abuse. This season we may well get battered at times - and most people will have that outcome in their range of Saints expectations - but for those that don’t……

 

Whatever happens next season its nailed on we will be seeing your endless droning sermons and lectures telling us how we should react/support on a daily basis

[austsaint]

8 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Sigh. You again seem to find it difficult to distinguish between expectations in the Championship vs. the PL.

In the former we had one of the best squads, and certainly one of the most expensive (both in signings and wages). So of course RM was expected to take us up. Fortunately he did very well in the playoffs, aided by a timely loss of our incompetent first choice GK (RM himself admitted he was an idiot not to have played AM earlier). 

In the PL it's a completely different kettle of fish. As it stands we have the worst squad in the league, except for Ipswich and possibly Leicester. If we don't pointsignificantly strengthen I for one won't blame RM if we inevitably go back down again.

SR? That's a different matter.

You make a fair point.   As things stand, only three players from our promotion squad are likely Prem quality.   KWP certainly;   THB highly likely and Flynn Downes very likely - maybe you can include Ryan Fraser as just about  up-to-standard.   Downes isn't our player yet and KWP is not certain to extend his contract.    You could argue that players like AA, Aribo, Smallbone, Bednarek, Stephens, Adams have earned the chance to measure up, yet there are real doubts that they will.   This is the immediate challenge for RM and SR.     How do they balance the temptation to keep a successful squad together in an infinitely tougher league?  How ruthless, and realistic are they prepared to be.

[gio1saints]

19 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

 

If we go into next season with Martin thinking Stephens and Smallbone will be "top, top players" for us, and signing a stop gap keeper till Bazunu comes straight back into the team, then we are coming straight back down again. 

If we do not improve the squad I agree it’s probable we will go straight down. 

I would not consider that a reason why RM should not publicly praise his players performance in interviews. He praises them all if asked - it’s not just Stephens and Will. He’s trying to keep them motivated & encouraged to do it again and more. 

What he thinks in private is not necessarily what we see or hear in public. I would not want him to bad mouth ANY of our players in public frankly - that’s for behind closed doors face to face with the player. Managers that do that are usually at the end of their tenure. 

We will see if Will and Jack make the starting eleven but it won’t be related to how much he loves them, he loves ALL of them, it’s his signature managerial style. Does not mean he’s soft or weak. The opposite. Takes more courage to love than to hate.
Many admire his approach and I’m sure players like Will and even Stephens may well have played at levels above their natural ability level last season - in part due to the self belief RM has encouraged in them. If that’s the case this year remains to be seen - but I understand your scepticism. 

Edited June 12 by gio1saints

[manji]

13 hours ago, gio1saints said:

If we do not improve the squad I agree it’s probable we will go straight down. 

I would not consider that a reason why RM should not publicly praise his players performance in interviews. He praises them all if asked - it’s not just Stephens and Will. He’s trying to keep them motivated & encouraged to do it again and more. 

What he thinks in private is not necessarily what we see or hear in public. I would not want him to bad mouth ANY of our players in public frankly - that’s for behind closed doors face to face with the player. Managers that do that are usually at the end of their tenure. 

We will see if Will and Jack make the starting eleven but it won’t be related to how much he loves them, he loves ALL of them, it’s his signature managerial style. Does not mean he’s soft or weak. The opposite. Takes more courage to love than to hate.
Many admire his approach and I’m sure players like Will and even Stephens may well have played at levels above their natural ability level last season - in part due to the self belief RM has encouraged in them. If that’s the case this year remains to be seen - but I understand your scepticism. 

I do not understand why squad strength is even being debated at the moment it’s stunningly obvious the team will be strengthened. Ages to go yet.

We are clearly making sure we have the main players signed up like Flynn Downes and then build any new players around them. We will have a list of achievable targets lined up already. 

[Dman]

13 hours ago, manji said:

I do not understand why squad strength is even being debated at the moment it’s stunningly obvious the team will be strengthened. Ages to go yet.

We are clearly making sure we have the main players signed up like Flynn Downes and then build any new players around them. We will have a list of achievable targets lined up already. 

ahhhh we've just been given the Manji kiss of death. Looks like we're fucked. 

[Dark Munster]

19 hours ago, manji said:

I do not understand why squad strength is even being debated at the moment it’s stunningly obvious the team will be strengthened. Ages to go yet.

We are clearly making sure we have the main players signed up like Flynn Downes and then build any new players around them. We will have a list of achievable targets lined up already. 

We'll definitely bring in new players. But that doesn't necessarily mean the team will be strengthened, with SR's crap track record it's no guarantee.

Time will tell.

[Mr X]

It's not just about what players Martin brings in, its wether he's prepared to change the whole philosophy of what he believes in, passing the ball round repeatedly in front of your own goal line just isn't going to work in the premier league nor will we be able to play the possession game to wear opponents down against teams that will do it much better than us with world class players, so what tactics exactly will we be employing?

 

Success for us will be just staying up and I will be happy with that as looking at the teams I'm not sure there are three teams that will be significantly weaker and we will have to beat the odds as teams that come straight up usually go straight back down. 

With that said Martin has surprised me in the championship he has to have credit for turning round a group of players with such a weak mentality so there's no reason he can't do it again 🤞

[Kenilworthy]

16 hours ago, Mr X said:

It's not just about what players Martin brings in, its wether he's prepared to change the whole philosophy of what he believes in, passing the ball round repeatedly in front of your own goal line just isn't going to work in the premier league nor will we be able to play the possession game to wear opponents down against teams that will do it much better than us with world class players, so what tactics exactly will we be employing?

 

Success for us will be just staying up and I will be happy with that as looking at the teams I'm not sure there are three teams that will be significantly weaker and we will have to beat the odds as teams that come straight up usually go straight back down. 

With that said Martin has surprised me in the championship he has to have credit for turning round a group of players with such a weak mentality so there's no reason he can't do it again 🤞

There are some reasons for hope. Forest only won their playoff through incompetent refereeing and have survived two seasons while being pretty poor. Yes they made a huge number of signings but you could argue they survived in spite of their scattergun approach rather than through it. And they will be poor again. Not all the teams that had sound seasons will do so well again - at least one of Wolves, Fulham, Brighton, Bournemouth, Palace are likely to struggle. Ipswich will be undone by VAR that will see Morsy notching up the red cards. Leicester could have a significant points deduction. I am discounting Everton as they remain the unflushable turd.  It is likely that 36 points or possibly even less could be enough for survival, which is doable if we make St Mary's a stronghold.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

On 14/06/2024 at 12:59, Kenilworthy said:

There are some reasons for hope. Forest only won their playoff through incompetent refereeing and have survived two seasons while being pretty poor.

Yeah, there's a lot of luck and fine margins at this level. RM stumbled across a back three with Wee Man as one of the wing backs who was arguably man of the match at Wembley. Baz's injury forced RM to bring in McCarthy. Without those two developments, we'd probably still be in the Championship and baying for RM's blood. 

And it's not just Forest that are pretty poor in the premiership. I've got my rose-tinted glasses on and can see us surprising a lot of teams next year.

 

[manji]

On 12/06/2024 at 01:04, Dark Munster said:

Sigh. You again seem to find it difficult to distinguish between expectations in the Championship vs. the PL.

In the former we had one of the best squads, and certainly one of the most expensive (both in signings and wages). So of course RM was expected to take us up. Fortunately he did very well in the playoffs, aided by a timely loss of our incompetent first choice GK (RM himself admitted he was an idiot not to have played AM earlier). 

In the PL it's a completely different kettle of fish. As it stands we have the worst squad in the league, except for Ipswich and possibly Leicester. If we don't significantly strengthen I for one won't blame RM if we inevitably go back down again.

SR? That's a different matter.

As it stands. It’s obvious we are going to strengthen our squad. Process seems quite methodical so far. THB, keeping Flynn Downes ( most likely ) , Lallana, new contract for McCarthy, clearly in the market for a new keeper so far so good and continue to strengthen. 
Again why would anyone who runs the club want to take us into the P.L. with a weak squad ? Plenty of time yet.

[manji]

11 hours ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

Yeah, there's a lot of luck and fine margins at this level. RM stumbled across a back three with Wee Man as one of the wing backs who was arguably man of the match at Wembley. Baz's injury forced RM to bring in McCarthy. Without those two developments, we'd probably still be in the Championship and baying for RM's blood. 

And it's not just Forest that are pretty poor in the premiership. I've got my rose-tinted glasses on and can see us surprising a lot of teams next year.

 

I agree there are a few vulnerable clubs in the P.L. including Bournemouth , Wolves, Brentford, Leicester, Ipswich and there’s very little transfer activity so far. 

[sfc4prem]

6 hours ago, manji said:

I agree there are a few vulnerable clubs in the P.L. including Bournemouth , Wolves, Brentford, Leicester, Ipswich and there’s very little transfer activity so far. 

I can't see us finishing below Ipswich or Leicester, for starters.

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, sfc4prem said:

I can't see us finishing below Ipswich or Leicester, for starters.

Both teams were above us for the vast majority of last season.....

[manji]

27 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Both teams were above us for the vast majority of last season.....

Which no relevance this season 🙄

[AlexLaw76]

5 minutes ago, manji said:

Which no relevance this season 🙄

Of course it does. It gives an indicator that they were better than us for the vast majority of the most recent season.

If anything, Ipswich are probably in the strongest position, currently

Edited June 16 by AlexLaw76

[S-Clarke]

10 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Of course it does. It gives an indicator that they were better than us for the vast majority of the most recent season.

If anything, Ipswich are probably in the strongest position, currently

They need a lot of work, I certainly wouldn't say they are in the strongest position. 

I imagine they'll start doing that work soon though!

[AlexLaw76]

5 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

They need a lot of work, I certainly wouldn't say they are in the strongest position. 

I imagine they'll start doing that work soon though!

They finished above us, and were above us for the majority of the season. They have not lost their manager or many players.

We have Brooks, Fraser, Downes, Rothwell, Alcaraz, Armstrong...potentially Adams, sized holes in the squad.

I am sure we will strengthen, but so will the others...

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They finished above us, and were above us for the majority of the season. They have not lost their manager or many players.

We have Brooks, Fraser, Downes, Rothwell, Alcaraz, Armstrong...potentially Adams, sized holes in the squad.

I am sure we will strengthen, but so will the others...

They lost Sarmiento, Moore and Hutchinson who all went back to their parent clubs - 3 of their best players at the back end of the season. We've certainly lost Brooks, Rothwell and Stu - I'd say we'll 99% sign Fraser, so that's done...Charly is coming back, so adds to us not takes away.

When I look at the core of Ipswich as of today I see Wolfenden, Burgess, Lungno, Morsy, Hirst, Chaplin....no PL quality in there at all, they may prove it but they're either skates or journeyman EFL footballers who have rode the crest of a wave.

My opinion is that we have a much stronger base to build from with the likes of KWP, Armstrong, Bednarek, Stephens, THB already here. By all accounts Fraser will be done and we've also added Lallana to the mix (not sure he'll add much mind). 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

They lost Sarmiento, Moore and Hutchinson who all went back to their parent clubs - 3 of their best players at the back end of the season. We've certainly lost Brooks, Rothwell and Stu - I'd say we'll 99% sign Fraser, so that's done...Charly is coming back, so adds to us not takes away.

When I look at the core of Ipswich as of today I see Wolfenden, Burgess, Lungno, Morsy, Hirst, Chaplin....no PL quality in there at all, they may prove it but they're either skates or journeyman EFL footballers who have rode the crest of a wave.

My opinion is that we have a much stronger base to build from with the likes of KWP, Armstrong, Bednarek, Stephens, THB already here. By all accounts Fraser will be done and we've also added Lallana to the mix (not sure he'll add much mind). 

The key is signing Downes, or someone who can offer the same (relative) level he can (and stay fit for the vast majority of the season)

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The key is signing Downes, or someone who can offer the same (relative) level he can (and stay fit for the vast majority of the season)

Patience is the name of the game with that one I think, we'll probably read all sorts of nonsense over the next week or months. If he doesn't come here then he stays at WHU, if he leaves WHU then he'll only come here - that's how I see it.

Just need to see what happens during WHU's pre-season.

[Raging Bull]

13 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They finished above us, and were above us for the majority of the season. They have not lost their manager or many players.

We have Brooks, Fraser, Downes, Rothwell, Alcaraz, Armstrong...potentially Adams, sized holes in the squad.

I am sure we will strengthen, but so will the others...

Sorry Batman, but where clubs finished is irrelevant. Just look back over time to see that it is irrelevant in so many cases. 

Take Reading finishing above us last time we were in the Championship for example  

There’s not a cat in hells chance the owner is going to leave anything to a blind gamble. 

It’s also my opinion that RM won’t get too long if things aren’t going to plan, and that they already have a number of candidates lined up. 

Spending over a decade in the PL also makes a difference 

Edited June 16 by Raging Bull

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

Patience is the name of the game with that one I think, we'll probably read all sorts of nonsense over the next week or months. If he doesn't come here then he stays at WHU, if he leaves WHU then he'll only come here - that's how I see it.

Just need to see what happens during WHU's pre-season.

Very true....

to add to the Downes list...a propeer No.1....any sniff of waiting out for Bazunu to come back is like having a foot in the championship from the off

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

Patience is the name of the game with that one I think, we'll probably read all sorts of nonsense over the next week or months. If he doesn't come here then he stays at WHU, if he leaves WHU then he'll only come here - that's how I see it.

Just need to see what happens during WHU's pre-season.

I agree but I don't think we can gamble. I wouldn't be surprised if we go for another decent dm in the meantime and then if we get Downes we can bolster the starting 11. Hopefully behind the scenes West ham will be clear about if they are keeping him or not. 

[waylander]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They finished above us, and were above us for the majority of the season. They have not lost their manager or many players.

We have Brooks, Fraser, Downes, Rothwell, Alcaraz, Armstrong...potentially Adams, sized holes in the squad.

I am sure we will strengthen, but so will the others...

You appear to be discounting the points deduction that is coming Leicester's way

[S-Clarke]

37 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I agree but I don't think we can gamble. I wouldn't be surprised if we go for another decent dm in the meantime and then if we get Downes we can bolster the starting 11. Hopefully behind the scenes West ham will be clear about if they are keeping him or not. 

I don't think we have the money for that. We'll probably have £15m ish aside for Downes, that's either used on Downes or an alternative DM - we wouldn't have the budget to sign an alternative DM and Downes. We probably have a date in the club whereby we move on.

I think FFP or whatever it is called now will play our hand a lot this year, clubs like ourselves are food and drink for the PL in terms of points deductions - so we have to paly the financial game. Not really what it should be about, but the most important thing for the PL is that it keeps the top teams at the top and bats down anyone who dares to challenge.

[hypochondriac]

38 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I don't think we have the money for that. We'll probably have £15m ish aside for Downes, that's either used on Downes or an alternative DM - we wouldn't have the budget to sign an alternative DM and Downes. We probably have a date in the club whereby we move on.

I think FFP or whatever it is called now will play our hand a lot this year, clubs like ourselves are food and drink for the PL in terms of points deductions - so we have to paly the financial game. Not really what it should be about, but the most important thing for the PL is that it keeps the top teams at the top and bats down anyone who dares to challenge.

Isn't it over a 3 year period? Hence why Chelsea could spunk a load of cash and forest? Not saying we should do that but surely it isn't too restrictive first season up. 

If Downes signs, I can't see us going into the season with Downes and Charles as our only two options for DM. I'd hope to send Charles on loan to the league below and bring in someone new. 

Edited June 16 by hypochondriac

[Holmes_and_Watson]

58 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Isn't it over a 3 year period? Hence why Chelsea could spunk a load of cash and forest? Not saying we should do that but surely it isn't too restrictive first season up. 

£105 over 3 years. We were down a division, so that cap is £83 million for us.

(£35 million per Prem season plus £13 for Championship)

So, we're not able to make up all our lost ground. SR have tried to push the wage bill down. We also have zero wages to pay departed players and loaners.

However, they will have to be replaced. Also, promotion bonuses/wage returns to premier League levels will have kicked in.

A couple of seasons back, I read that Villa were in flexible position when going up. They had a Championship wage base that was miles lower, and they could recruit without too much overpaid baggage. They just stayed up IIRC.

Chelsea exploited a loophole getting players over massively long contracts. They also have their player farm, offsetting the costs.

Forest got caught in the end, but had also lost a load of players that they wheeled and dealed to replace. But from a Championship wage base.

[Weston Super Saint]

13 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

£105 over 3 years. We were down a division, so that cap is £83 million for us.

(£35 million per Prem season plus £13 for Championship)

So, we're not able to make up all our lost ground. SR have tried to push the wage bill down. We also have zero wages to pay departed players and loaners.

However, they will have to be replaced. Also, promotion bonuses/wage returns to premier League levels will have kicked in.

A couple of seasons back, I read that Villa were in flexible position when going up. They had a Championship wage base that was miles lower, and they could recruit without too much overpaid baggage. They just stayed up IIRC.

Chelsea exploited a loophole getting players over massively long contracts. They also have their player farm, offsetting the costs.

Forest got caught in the end, but had also lost a load of players that they wheeled and dealed to replace. But from a Championship wage base.

Have you got a source for us losing £105m over 3 years?

[Holmes_and_Watson]

55 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Have you got a source for us losing £105m over 3 years?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5203371/2024/01/15/nottingham-forest-and-alleged-psr-breaches-what-are-rules-when-will-punishment-be-known/

[Weston Super Saint]

14 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5203371/2024/01/15/nottingham-forest-and-alleged-psr-breaches-what-are-rules-when-will-punishment-be-known/

Behind paywall. But does it say we lost £105m?

[Holmes_and_Watson]

11 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Behind paywall. But does it say we lost £105m?

Ah. I wondered if that's what you meant. No, the 105 million is the cap. Ours is lower at 81 million. We're playing to a smaller total than those who've been up across the 3 seasons.

[Weston Super Saint]

6 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Ah. I wondered if that's what you meant. No, the 105 million is the cap. Ours is lower at 81 million. We're playing to a smaller total than those who've been up across the 3 seasons.

But from what I can gather we are pretty much even at the moment, so we could spend £80m this season, break even next season and not break the rules...

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

6 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

they're either skates or journeyman EFL footballers

That brought a wry smile....just working out what's worse being a skate or being a journeyman.

I think we'll be lucky to get Downes for £15m. W. Ham know what an impact he had for us when he wasn't eating raw chicken! Wee Man will come our way. We've got the the basis of a solid team and equally important, united team. I'm still hopeful we can find this elusive striker that's going to knock in 15 goals for us. That's all we'll need to stay up and then everything else is extra.

[FarehamSaintJames]

It’s pretty clear the direction we’re going. Keep the core of the squad that was together last season.

I’m not opposed to that in the slightest. The clubs unity from board to manager to players will have a significant influence on us this season.

You’d probably argue that on paper we’re one of the more desirable bottom-half clubs to be at as well. No points deductions, no fractures within the squad or staff, a clear direction to what our identity is - plus our Premier League history. That counts for some standing.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

6 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

But from what I can gather we are pretty much even at the moment, so we could spend £80m this season, break even next season and not break the rules...

We could. THB is £20million already (although say spread at £5million over a 4 year deal). We will be carrying the amortisation costs of previous purchases into the current 3 year period though.

Downes, if he arrives, might be in tha same area.

We have all the loanees coming back on nice premier league wages again. So, that is going to bloat our squad and cost us, until we can ship a few out. The others will have their wages boosted too from last season.

In 22/23 we we already at 75% of wages against income. No doubt SR will want that lower. But it's a massive drain on our available funds.

Then there's club debts to payoff/ service, depending on what the debts are for. We made a £87 million loss in 22/23. Hopefully that was, as you say, offset against sales.

And should we go back down anyway, we'd be looking to offload costs again, to keep in with EFL rules.

And next time, clubs will know you are sailing close to PRS, and look to take advantage. I'm hoping it's something we do this season.

When I were young, £80 million meant £80 million. Not like these days... 🙂

[Badger]

14 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

When I were young, £80 million meant £80 million. Not like these days... 🙂

When I started following Saints, the record was c £160,000 and people were astounded when £200,000 was reached (Peters to Spurs). Even more so when Saints spent over £200,000 on Peter Osgood in 1974. 
 

Talk of millions then would have been laughed at. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

22 minutes ago, Badger said:

When I started following Saints, the record was c £160,000 and people were astounded when £200,000 was reached (Peters to Spurs). Even more so when Saints spent over £200,000 on Peter Osgood in 1974. 
 

Talk of millions then would have been laughed at. 

How much would a modern day Martin Peters be worth?

[skintsaint]

5 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

How much would a modern day Martin Peters be worth?

Freebie, would have run down his contact and left on a Bosman..

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Freebie, would have run down his contact and left on a Bosman..

My dad counters this with "Priceless", as no amount of money would have got him away from Norwich. 🙂

[hypochondriac]

Just received this little book of excellence 

[CSA96]