Russell Martin

[pingpong]

1 hour ago, Mr X said:

The man talks utter waffle..... Form not important going into the playoffs according to our great man https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/southampton-russell-martin-play-off-form-three-losses/

Weird. Why isn't he telling us how important form is and that we have no chance in the playoffs? Shouldn't he be effing and jeffing at our lack of a decent striker and/or goalkeeper? 

[Whitey Grandad]

5 minutes ago, The Curse of St Mary's said:

We are way too open but at the same time Bazuna has made very few beyond expected saves. Watford away and Ipswich away are just some examples where is inept shot saving ability has cost us crucial points. 

But it’s far more important to prevent those shots no matter who is in goal.

[notnowcato]

5 minutes ago, The Curse of St Mary's said:

We are way too open but at the same time Bazuna has made very few beyond expected saves. Watford away and Ipswich away are just some examples where is inept shot saving ability has cost us crucial points. 

Both boxes have not been good enough this season. 

[Dman]

4 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Both boxes have not been good enough this season. 

3rd highest goal scorers this season. Absolutely there have been games where we should have put it to bed with another goal or 2, but the fact we cannot keep them out (similar trend for a Russell Martin team), is the reason why we're not in contention for automatic promotion. 

11 clean sheets for a defence that contains KWP, THB and Bednerak is completely unacceptable. 

[Fan The Flames]

The old adage that attacks win games and defences win leagues.

I read somewhere that to you really need to be in the top three for both to be in the running to win a Championship/promotion.

Edited April 30 by Fan The Flames

[Fan The Flames]

29 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Both boxes have not been good enough this season. 

3rd for goals for, 14th for goals against.

[The Curse of St Mary's]

The best teams make sure they don't concede when on top despite missing chances to put game to bed. The Boro game was the absolute killer even though we still had a lifeline had we beaten Cardiff. We should have beaten Boro by a few goals but you don't allow opposition a free header in the 90th minute. Completely unacceptable to not be touch tight and to also allow the cross to come in so unchallenged. 

[Saint86]

20 minutes ago, Dman said:

3rd highest goal scorers this season. Absolutely there have been games where we should have put it to bed with another goal or 2, but the fact we cannot keep them out (similar trend for a Russell Martin team), is the reason why we're not in contention for automatic promotion. 

11 clean sheets for a defence that contains KWP, THB and Bednerak is completely unacceptable. 

Whilst I agree our defence could have been better, we're a very attacking side and would have won promotion at a canter had our strikers been able to finish off the plethora of guilt edged chances in matches. Ultimately we have the highest xG in the division. Also, lets not overegg the pudding, we actually have 12 clean sheets not 11 - which puts us Joint 11th (still not good defensibly), but Leicester have 15 (after their last 2 clean sheets), and Ipswich have 14. So not actually that far off the top 2 - Its a balance. Slight improvements to our finishing and defence and we'd have been laughing. Sadly we spent half our transfer budget on a cripple up front and CDM who had yet to play a season of senior football. Good luck united 😄

[Charlie Wayman]

Is he still here?

[notnowcato]

43 minutes ago, Dman said:

3rd highest goal scorers this season. Absolutely there have been games where we should have put it to bed with another goal or 2, but the fact we cannot keep them out (similar trend for a Russell Martin team), is the reason why we're not in contention for automatic promotion. 

11 clean sheets for a defence that contains KWP, THB and Bednerak is completely unacceptable. 

3 less clean sheets than the champions is hardly “completely unacceptable”. 
 

If our strikers fail to put the game to bed then it’s down to the defenders to hold out. Neither has been good enough and ultimately why we’re in the playoffs. 

Edited April 30 by notnowcato

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

3rd for goals for, 14th for goals against.

This is ultimately what it boils down to.

People can, and will, obviously spin figures to suit their viewpoint, but the simple matter of fact is that we're one of the top goalscorers in the league but amongst the bottom half of the table in  terms of keeping the ball out of the back of the net. 

 

[Nordic Saint]

2 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

3rd for goals for, 14th for goals against.

Is there a table for shots on target faced? If so, I'd expect it to show that the problem is the lack of shots saved by our goalkeepers rather than the number of shots on target allowed by our defence.

[Dusic]

I'm also in the camp that if we had actually taken more of the huge amount of good chances we create then we could have overcome our goals against tally - especially considering that we have conceded heavily in a few games which skews it a little.

Of the frustrating games we have lost or drawn e.g at home to Rotherham, Millwall, Middlesbrough and away to Hudds, Watford, Norwich, Ipswich, Cardiff we should certainly have scored more to put these games to bed.

These ones hurt more than the ones we have been well beaten in because we easily did enough to win all 8 of these quite comfortably and yet didnt.

[Chez]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

3rd for goals for, 14th for goals against.

Saints were top in terms of xG expected goals scored (1.86 goals per game) but as you say, 3rd in terms of goals scored (1.89 goals per game). Not sure how we have scored more than expected, unless opposing keepers have been shit against us, but I'm sure someone will enlighten me. What is telling is that we have the second most `big chances (70) missed, highest was Leicester 78. AArmstrong has missed 28 `big chances'. Next highest was Rutter with 17.  We have had the most shots per match, most corners too.  Whatever the gripes about RM, the style of football is creating opportunities, if perhaps they are not being taken. 

In defence, our xGA (expected goals conceded) is 1.14, equal third lowest (best), but actual number of goals conceded per game was 1.38, which as you say is 14th (same in terms of rankings for clean sheets). Is that disparity simply down to the keeper not saving things he should?  I wonder how many big chances we allow (can't find that stat). We have made the 3rd least number of tackles, 3rd least number of saves, 2nd least number of interceptions...I am not sure they are all that telling (all the good sides are similar) because we have the ball a lot, but it's obvious that we don't have a clue how to keep it tight and shut up shop.

 

[Chez]

27 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

Is there a table for shots on target faced? If so, I'd expect it to show that the problem is the lack of shots saved by our goalkeepers rather than the number of shots on target allowed by our defence.

number of `big chances' our defence have allowed would seem to be a good stat to have. 

[notnowcato]

The timing of the goals plays a part too.  How many games have we completely dominated for 60 minutes only to walk away with 1 point or less?  Probably the biggest frustration of the season for me.  Ultimately, we lose points because we concede a goal or 2 but how many times should we have been 2 or even 3 clear?  We've been unable to put the "game to bed" and equally unable to hold on as often as we should have.

We've also taken some hammerings along the way, I don't have the stats but gut feel is we've lost by 3 goals or higher, more often than rest of the top 6 or 10.

We have taken the lead at some point in 35 out of 45 games this season, only Lester have led more games than us (36).  

We've only won 25 of the 35 games we've taken the lead in, Lester have won 31.   Our average points gained when leading during a game is the 9th best in the league.  

 

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, Dusic said:

I'm also in the camp that if we had actually taken more of the huge amount of good chances we create then we could have overcome our goals against tally - especially considering that we have conceded heavily in a few games which skews it a little.

Of the frustrating games we have lost or drawn e.g at home to Rotherham, Millwall, Middlesbrough and away to Hudds, Watford, Norwich, Ipswich, Cardiff we should certainly have scored more to put these games to bed.

These ones hurt more than the ones we have been well beaten in because we easily did enough to win all 8 of these quite comfortably and yet didnt.

Isn't the point though that we shouldn't have to overcome a goals against tally like the one we have? That goals against tally shouldn't be how it is, making it such an uphill struggle all the time, that's the point. 

All successful teams are built on having a solid defence and not conceding many goals. You have to get that right so that it opens up the possibility of still winning games 1-0 on days when you're under the cosh or the chances aren't going in. Being hard to beat and being able to grind out results when you need to, is built on being hard to score against. 

Going into matches or second halves thinking that you need to score at least 2 or 3 because you're incapable of keeping goals out at the other end just isn't a credible approach for a team with any ambition, and will never deliver proper success, ever. Also, when the opposition know that that's the case, it gives them the incentive and motivation to keep going even when they go behind, as we've seen time and time again. They know that they just need to keep plugging away and it will probably pay off, rather than thinking 'oh well that's that then' when we score against them, and their heads going down, like they would against a team who they know can defend. 

And as others have mentioned, with the apparent pedigree of the core of defensive players we've got at our disposal, we simply shouldn't be leaking goals at the rate we do. More than half the other teams in the division, all the way down to Stoke in 18th, have conceded fewer than we have, generally with apparently inferior players (goalkeeper not withstanding). That is simply not a foundation on which you can deliver success. 

Edited April 30 by Midfield_General

[Wade Garrett]

Don’t understand this fascination with stats.  I don’t need them to tell me that we don’t close down quick enough, don’t mark well enough and don’t save enough shots.  It’s there in front of me every home game.

We also pass sideways and backwards too much and don’t make the most of a lot of our chances.

I couldn’t give a fuck about xG and comparisons with other teams.

[VectisSaint]

42 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

The timing of the goals plays a part too.  How many games have we completely dominated for 60 minutes only to walk away with 1 point or less?  Probably the biggest frustration of the season for me.  Ultimately, we lose points because we concede a goal or 2 but how many times should we have been 2 or even 3 clear?  We've been unable to put the "game to bed" and equally unable to hold on as often as we should have.

>>>You can't really blame this on Martin. We have been consistently top of the "points lost from a winning position" league before, Sky used to have a caption every game showing this, part of their standard broadcast package of Southampton games. For years we have been good at getting a lead and then throwing it away, I don't think its too much of a stretch to suggest Martin has improved how we perform in this area, he certainly has not made it worse that Ralph.

We've also taken some hammerings along the way, I don't have the stats but gut feel is we've lost by 3 goals or higher, more often than rest of the top 6 or 10.

We have taken the lead at some point in 35 out of 45 games this season, only Lester have led more games than us (36).  

We've only won 25 of the 35 games we've taken the lead in, Lester have won 31.   Our average points gained when leading during a game is the 9th best in the league.

>>>True (have checked the top 6), but we have "only" lost by 3 goals or more 3 times, so hardly significant statistically. Quite honestly apart from maybe the psychological impact and the very minor goal difference issue losing by 5-0 is really no different than losing 1-0, same points achieved (zero), that's why although we have conceded relatively a lot of goals, many of those conceded have been largely "irrelevant" in the overall scheme of things, if you lose 5-0 only the one goal is really significant in terms of the match result. You tend to concede more when you are chasing a match (not sure we can ever be accused of "chasing" anything though, walking with purpose perhaps). 

 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

6 hours ago, Mr X said:

The man talks utter waffle..... Form not important going into the playoffs according to our great man https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/southampton-russell-martin-play-off-form-three-losses/

Form probably doesn't matter if you've got a good manager with solid tactics and able to adapt, combined with players who want to win and show it on the pitch.

We're fucked.

[tdmickey3]

1 hour ago, notnowcato said:

The timing of the goals plays a part too.  How many games have we completely dominated for 60 minutes only to walk away with 1 point or less?  Probably the biggest frustration of the season for me.  Ultimately, we lose points because we concede a goal or 2 but how many times should we have been 2 or even 3 clear?  We've been unable to put the "game to bed" and equally unable to hold on as often as we should have.

We've also taken some hammerings along the way, I don't have the stats but gut feel is we've lost by 3 goals or higher, more often than rest of the top 6 or 10.

We have taken the lead at some point in 35 out of 45 games this season, only Lester have led more games than us (36).  

We've only won 25 of the 35 games we've taken the lead in, Lester have won 31.   Our average points gained when leading during a game is the 9th best in the league.  

 

And its all about your hero being unable to manage a game as it develops making zero tactical changes to react to other managers tactical changes allowing them control

All he does is chuck other players on like for like (often players with less ability) and hope it works..

Until he works out or is not to stubborn to change to other ways it will continue to be a mess and we all know he isn't willing to do that so its more of the same for us until he leaves, hopefully soon

[Fan The Flames]

6 hours ago, Mr X said:

The man talks utter waffle..... Form not important going into the playoffs according to our great man https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/southampton-russell-martin-play-off-form-three-losses/

To be fair to him he has to say that, his job is to be positive.

[notnowcato]

16 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

And its all about your hero being unable to manage a game as it develops making zero tactical changes to react to other managers tactical changes allowing them control

All he does is chuck other players on like for like (often players with less ability) and hope it works..

Until he works out or is not to stubborn to change to other ways it will continue to be a mess and we all know he isn't willing to do that so its more of the same for us until he leaves, hopefully soon

Setting yourself up for a massive disappointment. Can’t see RM being asked to leave anytime soon and he’s probably not quite hitting the top of the list of Premier League clubs looking for a new manager. 
 

[Tommy Mulgrew]

If asked before the season began or, indeed, at the end of September, whether I would take having to beat Cardiff away and then Stoke at home to go into the final game away to Leeds on 90 points, equal to Leeds, either level with or one or three behind second-placed Ipswich, seven behind leaders Leicester and eleven ahead of the next team, I think I would almost certainly said yes.  And I think most on here would, too.  That was our situation after the disappointing defeat at Leicester.  Even after that defeat and our disastrous February, we were still in a place that was IMO broadly acceptable to most fans.  We should try to overlook the recency effect of Cardiff and Stoke.

The trouble is that although the performance as a whole is broadly acceptable, acknowledging the inability to secure promotion yet, the number of goals conceded is not, considering the quality of our defensive players, and so is the number of good chances spurned.  Added to that, the alarming number of games that we have dominated only to draw or lose and the tedious way we approach almost every game, even when trying to score an injury time winner or equaliser, and is it any wonder that I and many other fans are hacked off with the way it has gone?

RM deserves credit for establishing the groundwork for a successful season after the shambles of last year but he has persistently not learned from what he has seen on the pitch and adjusted his preferred modus operandi to get the results that our promotion objective demand.  He and his players make the same mistakes over and over again.  Hence the ire on this forum from most posters.  With small adjustments here and there, we could have achieved so much more.  Either he cannot see it or he is wantonly ignoring the obvious.  Whichever it is, that is unacceptable.  Even if we do by some miracle win the playoffs.  To do that, though, we need him and the players to step up and show some guts and gumption, show passion and desire and go and win each game (pace Whitey G).  So far this year I have not seen much of that; now is the time that really counts.

Thank goodness promotion is still within our reach.  Give him and the team our full support until the last second of our season.  Then, and only then, decide whether we want to have him as our manager next season.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, notnowcato said:

Setting yourself up for a massive disappointment. Can’t see RM being asked to leave anytime soon and he’s probably not quite hitting the top of the list of Premier League clubs looking for a new manager. 
 

Meh. I'd be happy if league 1 came knocking or another championship team.

[Chez]

3 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Don’t understand this fascination with stats.  I don’t need them to tell me that we don’t close down quick enough, don’t mark well enough and don’t save enough shots.  It’s there in front of me every home game.

We also pass sideways and backwards too much and don’t make the most of a lot of our chances.

I think that was the first time I have ever referenced the stats provided about Championship games, so not sure I'm terribly `fascinated' by them - I'm not sure the xG illuminates anything to me, but maybe i don't understand it correctly. On this occasion I just wanted to see if we genuinely created a lot of proper chances (if we do then RM must be doing something right) and equally if we allowed too many proper chances or we have just been done by quite a few sucker punches. I've watched every game, so I probably know the answer, but over a whole season you memory can play tricks on you.

[Chez]

2 hours ago, Tommy Mulgrew said:

The trouble is that although the performance as a whole is broadly acceptable, acknowledging the inability to secure promotion yet, the number of goals conceded is not, considering the quality of our defensive players,

Do we really have quality defenders?

No one rates the keeper and the midfield in front of them is pretty poor defensively. Individually, Manning is pretty average as a defender. I honestly don't know if the centre backs are all that. They have struggled in the top flight, but on relegation they suddenly become the `best defenders in the championship'? THB is a little overrated in my opinion. Decent footballer, no doubt about it, but he's not quick and not the best in the air. And then there is KWP, who is obviously a fantastic footballer, but is he actually a great defender? He's been fucking terrible the last few weeks. 

I doubt i am going to convince anyone on here that our ills are not down to RM, but I think it should be acknowledged that player limitations do factor in.  That said, players that defend well and are not great on the ball are unlikely to be high on his wish list this summer. So even with time to shuffle his pack, I'd be surprised if we got tighter next season.

[Osvaldorama]

21 hours ago, Galway saint said:

No but equally if he does think that he doesn’t need to describe him as one of the best in the league. 

It does make me laugh. Southampton fans are in a better position than most other teams fans to judge which league players should be in. 

As saints fans we have been down to league one and up to the heights of Europe. One thing is for sure, we have seen many different levels of players.
 

For that reason alone I feel quite comfortable in judging what level a player is these days. Yet they’re trying to convince us he’s the best keeper in the division. Loooooool.

Maybe at the next “tactics night” the club should be the one listening to the fans 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Meh. I'd be happy if league 1 came knocking or another championship team.

I’d rather he went to a competitor.

[Mr X]

3 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

To be fair to him he has to say that, his job is to be positive.

True but Surely you can be positive while being realistic and not insulting the fans intelligence with such crap! 

[Lighthouse]

31 minutes ago, Mr X said:

True but Surely you can be positive while being realistic and not insulting the fans intelligence with such crap! 

I don’t think a person who has predicted nothing but a crushing defeat before every game this season can talk much about being realistic.

I'd much rather he had his attitude than half the fans on here who think we may as well not even bother with the playoffs.

As for sacking him…. Well if there’s a very clear strategy to bring in someone specific with a view to a different game plan next season, then okay. If we’re just doing it for the sake of change, we did that with with Ralph last season and look what happened.

[Oldandtired]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I’d rather he went to a competitor.

Pompey... it's a bit nearer to Brighton too

[Lee On Solent Saint]

9 hours ago, notnowcato said:

3 less clean sheets than the champions is hardly “completely unacceptable”. 
 

I might be wrong, but Leicester tend not to concede three/four and five goals in a game. I suspect most of the goals they've conceded are the odd one or two in a game. 

[Tommy Mulgrew]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

Do we really have quality defenders?

McCarthy is an experienced Premiership and Championship goalie; RM has ignored him until two weeks ago.  I agree Bazunu has been poor.  Except for letting in a free kick tamely, Lumley has been good this season in his limited game time.  Macca is our obvious first and low-risk choice, even for a PB team.  Bednarek is a Polish international with over 50 caps I think and he and THB are absolutely quality at this level.  Stephens is acceptable, but no more, as a third CB and fullback cover.  KWP is excellent in both attack and defence; his defending understandably suffers the more energy he spends on attack (I lost count of the number of times he bombed forward against Stoke and then had to bomb back again to defend) and he is exhausted towards the end of each match.  Bree is good at this level.  Manning is fine going forward but poor defensively.  Meghoma is preferable to me and has done well each time he has played IMO.  Downes is Premiership level. Charles, although young, is an Irish international and is good in this league either alongside Downes or as a sub for him. Smallbone is a powderpuff player who should not be at DM.  For a Championship team, even one vying for promotion, I believe we have no right to expect any better than what we have, Manning and Bazunu excepted and we do not have to keep having those two in the starting eleven.  Bazunu is now injured and Bree, Stephens or Meghoma could play instead of Manning.

Whatever you or I think of our defensive capabilities, the number of goals that we have conceded is criminal.  Only this year have I noticed how we hardly ever try to close down wide attacking players and seem to invite crosses into our box.  That is not because of the quality of our players; it is surely how they have been told to play.  It would not be difficult to improve our defensive performance: you or I could even do it.  

[tdmickey3]

6 hours ago, notnowcato said:

Setting yourself up for a massive disappointment. Can’t see RM being asked to leave anytime soon and he’s probably not quite hitting the top of the list of Premier League clubs looking for a new manager. 
 

Massive disappointment is what this club does so no real shock that the fools at the top believe failing to secure promotion with this squad is acceptable.

If they believe keeping the tactically inept Martin is the way forward then they are in for a rude awakening next season with a much poorer squad transitioning into Swansea.

I’m sure you will continue to make excuses for him

 

[The Cat]

4 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

Massive disappointment is what this club does so no real shock that the fools at the top believe failing to secure promotion with this squad is acceptable.

If they believe keeping the tactically inept Martin is the way forward then they are in for a rude awakening next season with a much poorer squad transitioning into Swansea.

I’m sure you will continue to make excuses for him

 

We had our massive disappointment when we nearly went bust and got relegated 2 leagues.

In the grand scheme of things finishing 4th is not a massive disappointment. It's somewhere along the lines of being vaguely inconvenient.

If Martin was as tactically inept as you make out we'd be miles down the table because every other manager would have out thought him.

People are so overly dramatic.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Bedders and KWP (possibly some McCarthy) would have been part of RalphBall when it was working. Also when it went pear shaped. But they can be good in the right system. And that applied to Martin's at times this season.

THB and Bedders have looked solid a fair bit. With full backs pushing up, and deliberate flaws when it comes to dealing with counters, and on the flanks that's not been the easiest of asks.

The whole defence is left exposed when our midfield can't disrupt, control or transition the ball. Often all 3, when JWP went and when Downes isn't playing.

Chez pointed out the limitations. But a lot of the players aren't helped when the system isn't likely to work, or when the game changes. That's why it's so frustrating. There were time when I'd be watching other games, pleased that Martin was getting results from our possession game. But that faded when, even though he tried a few things, clearly wasn't going to change enough to help us see games out.

While our poor end may have put some suitors off, the clubs most likely to pick him up, are the data obsessed ones, who will be looking at other things.

I can't see them parting with him short of losing the dressing room. A poor start next season, if we're a bit adrift might make them reconsider. If he is staying, then hopefully, SR will actually recruit fully to back his system. It would a decent thing to do for at least 1 manager in 4.

[notnowcato]

22 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

Massive disappointment is what this club does so no real shock that the fools at the top believe failing to secure promotion with this squad is acceptable.

If they believe keeping the tactically inept Martin is the way forward then they are in for a rude awakening next season with a much poorer squad transitioning into Swansea.

I’m sure you will continue to make excuses for him

 

Mystic Mickey and his Laughing Emojis; what a time to be alive. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

14 minutes ago, The Cat said:

We had our massive disappointment when we nearly went bust and got relegated 2 leagues.

In the grand scheme of things finishing 4th is not a massive disappointment. It's somewhere along the lines of being vaguely inconvenient.

If Martin was as tactically inept as you make out we'd be miles down the table because every other manager would have out thought him.

People are so overly dramatic.

Well, that's spoiled any number of my future moans. 🙂

I'll need to start them all off with "It's not as bad as the club going bust, and I hesitate to even mention such a relatively trivial thing, but..."

Still being in with a chance of promotion is not massively disappointing. 4th and going out with a whimper might well be.

It's partly just where we could have finished, with our resources. Finishing lower than Leeds won't matter if we go up. If we don't, we've once again managed to finish below them both. So no change. So, the manager's philosophy and SR's supposed abilities made no difference (unless  people felt that it could have been a lot worse without them).

Recruitment and game management follow on from that. The stat Alex put up about losing points from winning positions. The uniped striker purchase.

Disappointment considering the opportunity.

[Galway saint]

As I see it, if we are promoted his brand of football will get us annihilated.

If we don’t go up he will have a worse squad but frankly most of the division is pretty poor so we may be ok again for the play offs.

We would likely continue to concede far too many goals to challenge for the automatic spots and it seems difficult to see otherwise.

It all feels a bit flat at the moment. I feel the first third of the season was about him making the system work with new players, the second third it was working and the final third has been a real disappointment and if you were being critical of him it’s shown up his limitations as a manger and coach.  The whole set up of the side is wrong at the moment. 

 

 

[Forkbeard]

On 29/04/2024 at 22:05, saintant said:

Come on - he genuinely believes Baz is one of the best.

We had an excellent young German goalkeeper already when he took over at Swansea yet Martin insisted that we spent £500k on Andy Fisher, who now can't get in the side because he's not very good.

Martin has some weird ideas about goalkeepers.

[Forkbeard]

16 hours ago, notnowcato said:

The timing of the goals plays a part too.  How many games have we completely dominated for 60 minutes only to walk away with 1 point or less? 

 

We had all that too. I think at one point we had the worst record in the Championship for points lost from winning positions and goals conceded in the last fifteen minutes.

The point seems to be that you can look at Martin's entire career thus far, at three different clubs and with a wide range of quality of player available to him, and the same themes keep developing. The fan complaints are the same. The deficiencies in his teams are the same. Even the excuses made by those who defend him are the same. He's a completely "one note" coach and you would appear to be in the league position you are because you've still got some quality players for this level rather than because of Russell Martin's contributions.

Basically, if those of you who dislike him think you do now, wait and see what happens if you have to suffer through another year of him.

[trousers]

15 hours ago, notnowcato said:

he’s probably not quite hitting the top of the list of Premier League clubs looking for a new manager. 
 

Indeed... And therein lies the problem....

Edited May 1 by trousers

[captainchris]

Our defending has literally been non existent on many occasions to the point where you have to ask basic questions. Why no marking, why no closing down and engagement with attackers? It is either basic poor coaching or maybe even lack of fitness… 

Not forgetting a poor goalie… 

[notnowcato]

1 hour ago, Forkbeard said:

We had all that too. I think at one point we had the worst record in the Championship for points lost from winning positions and goals conceded in the last fifteen minutes.

The point seems to be that you can look at Martin's entire career thus far, at three different clubs and with a wide range of quality of player available to him, and the same themes keep developing. The fan complaints are the same. The deficiencies in his teams are the same. Even the excuses made by those who defend him are the same. He's a completely "one note" coach and you would appear to be in the league position you are because you've still got some quality players for this level rather than because of Russell Martin's contributions.

Basically, if those of you who dislike him think you do now, wait and see what happens if you have to suffer through another year of him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm reasonably happy with 4th, considering the state our club was in when RM took over just under a year ago.  He's done a decent job.  Many would've failed to do as good a job.  He's not perfect, but overall he's delivered a style of play that I enjoy watching (granted I'm in the minority on this forum), we've scored some magnificent goals, we've also defended like clowns at times and we've failed to put the game to bed on too many occasions.  As I said not perfect but not enough to assume that next season this all goes to rat shit as many on here would have us believe and you seemingly are here to fan the flames of this rhetoric which I find a little odd but hey, there's nowt as queer as folk.

[S-Clarke]

17 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm reasonably happy with 4th, considering the state our club was in when RM took over just under a year ago.  He's done a decent job.  Many would've failed to do as good a job.  He's not perfect, but overall he's delivered a style of play that I enjoy watching (granted I'm in the minority on this forum), we've scored some magnificent goals, we've also defended like clowns at times and we've failed to put the game to bed on too many occasions.  As I said not perfect but not enough to assume that next season this all goes to rat shit as many on here would have us believe and you seemingly are here to fan the flames of this rhetoric which I find a little odd but hey, there's nowt as queer as folk.

I think if we stay down I would still expect us to be competitive next year, It won't be easy as we'll need to add a lot of players...but we will still have a massive financial advantage to do so over pretty much 80% of the league. I've always thought we have two shots at this, this season has been a bit underwhelming because we've never been involved in the auto hunt, but if we fail in the playoffs then I do genuinely expect us to have another promotion attempt next year (as long as our recruitment is right) - Martin will be out of the door if we don't start in that manner. It will be our last shot.

[trousers]

9 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

we've never been involved in the auto hunt

Erm...

 

Edited May 1 by trousers

[The Kraken]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

I think if we stay down I would still expect us to be competitive next year, It won't be easy as we'll need to add a lot of players...but we will still have a massive financial advantage to do so over pretty much 80% of the league. I've always thought we have two shots at this, this season has been a bit underwhelming because we've never been involved in the auto hunt, but if we fail in the playoffs then I do genuinely expect us to have another promotion attempt next year (as long as our recruitment is right) - Martin will be out of the door if we don't start in that manner. It will be our last shot.

My expectation is that if we don’t go up we’re going to have to make monumental cost cutting changes, both on the playing side and within the club itself. We’ll have a lot of players still on relatively huge wages, plus we’ve got quite a few loanees out who haven’t exactly set their respective places alight so that’s another headache. Basically I think we’re a bit fucked financially if we don’t go up.

[Nordic Saint]

3 hours ago, Forkbeard said:

We had an excellent young German goalkeeper already when he took over at Swansea yet Martin insisted that we spent £500k on Andy Fisher, who now can't get in the side because he's not very good.

Martin has some weird ideas about goalkeepers.

I remember at the time Russell Martin was leaving you, reading a message on a Swansea forum saying, "Now we can get rid of our sh!t goalkeepers."

[Rebel]

For me its a bit like the situation we found ourselves in with Claude Puel - we either need to sack him or back him.  With Puel we failed to back him and then decided to sack him late in the summer replacing him with a last minute panic decision in Mauricio Pellegrino - so be careful what you wish for. 

I still think Les Reed went for Pellegrino as he looked and sounded a bit like Pochettino.  Only he was far from that and his track record was terrible.

I believe in playing out from the back as opposed to lumping it forward - but I get frustrated that we do it all the time, with short passes to the centre backs or pinch passes to the CDM, particularly when the opposition have figured it out and are pressing the back line waiting for the mistake. At times it looks like suicidal football.  

But we still seem to have holes in the squad - we have missed a centre forward all season, as well as cover at left back, centre back, CDM and in central midfield.  How many times have we needed to close a game out by putting on a ball winning box-to-box midfielder but we just don't have one?

I'd stick with Martin - but tell him he needs a plan B as well as be a bit more pragmatic about how we play.

But also they need to give him the players to play his way - but also have a plan B.

If we don't go up a lot of players will leave - those on loan but also players like KWP, Aribo, Bednarek and Adarma - partly though cost cutting and the need to raise money but also partly because they want to play at a higher level

Edited May 1 by Rebel