Russell Martin

[Morse]

A lot of talk on this thread about possession football that Martin likes. It's worth pointing out Arsenal lost yesterday while having 82% possession.  Just saying. 

[Forester]

The last manager who preached a possession style was Puel, who despite finishing eighth, taking us to a cup final that we narrowly lost and didn’t concede a goal en route to the final, including a two leg win over Liverpool, was sacked with many fans booing him on the end of season lap.  He did all this with Van Dijk injured from Xmas, having sold Pelle and Mane and playing 49 games that season.

I remain of the view that it was a mistake (the season that followed under Pellergrino and Hughes was only marginally better than this awful season) but accept most fans disagree.  However the point of raking this up again is to say that people have not enjoyed an “anti possession” style either when we lose.  Oh to have back the so called boring eight place and cup final.  And before some smart arse says “yes but we only got 46 points”, then consider the facts above and that in any season that would be comfortable mid table position

[beatlesaint]

3 minutes ago, Morse said:

A lot of talk on this thread about possession football that Martin likes. It's worth pointing out Arsenal lost yesterday while having 82% possession.  Just saying. 

I’ll let you into a little secret but please don’t tell anyone…….

 

There is no style or way to play football that wins every game 😉

[Convict Colony]

Just now, beatlesaint said:

I’ll let you into a little secret but please don’t tell anyone…….

 

There is no style or way to play football that wins every game 😉

[The Cat]

3 minutes ago, Morse said:

A lot of talk on this thread about possession football that Martin likes. It's worth pointing out Arsenal lost yesterday while having 82% possession.  Just saying. 

It obviously happens and possession football doesn't guarantee results, but then nor does any style.

What gets results is players implementing the style and the tactics correctly. Part of that is making sure you have the right squad.

Arsenal have won a shit load of games this season, the overwhelming majority of which they have had loads more possession than the other team. It took Arteta a while to get the right players playing the game how he wanted and once he did they exceeded all expectations this season.

[aintforever]

6 minutes ago, Forester said:

The last manager who preached a possession style was Puel, who despite finishing eighth, taking us to a cup final that we narrowly lost and didn’t concede a goal en route to the final, including a two leg win over Liverpool, was sacked with many fans booing him on the end of season lap.  He did all this with Van Dijk injured from Xmas, having sold Pelle and Mane and playing 49 games that season.

I remain of the view that it was a mistake (the season that followed under Pellergrino and Hughes was only marginally better than this awful season) but accept most fans disagree.  However the point of raking this up again is to say that people have not enjoyed an “anti possession” style either when we lose.  Oh to have back the so called boring eight place and cup final.  And before some smart arse says “yes but we only got 46 points”, then consider the facts above and that in any season that would be comfortable mid table position

I don’t think anyone has an issue with possession football, it’s the hiring of a manager who has had little success with whatever style he has been playing. Obviously the better teams tend to have more possession, but his teams have all just been average.

[SaintsFan86]

19 minutes ago, Morse said:

A lot of talk on this thread about possession football that Martin likes. It's worth pointing out Arsenal lost yesterday while having 82% possession.  Just saying. 

It's also worth pointing out they are second in the league. 

[qwertyell]

33 minutes ago, SaintsFan86 said:

It's also worth pointing out they are second in the league. 

Imagine how much higher they'd be if they just hoofed the ball away like a live hand grenade.

Arteta's young. He'll learn.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

43 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

Imagine how much higher they'd be if they just hoofed the ball away like a live hand grenade.

Arteta's young. He'll learn.

I've never thought of him as front footed or aggressive enough as a manager. Until then, he'll have to settle for being towards the top of the Premier League and Champions League football. 🙂

[harvey]

I just hope he's not Selles Mk2.........a borefest and relegation to league 1 awaits if that's the case.

[goodymatt]

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/swanseacity/news/60253/russell-martin-the-multi-million-pound-swansea-city-game-the-majority-ownership-have-won

 

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, Morse said:

A lot of talk on this thread about possession football that Martin likes. It's worth pointing out Arsenal lost yesterday while having 82% possession.  Just saying. 

We lost 9-0 to Man United with 25% possession. Just saying.

[littledavewatson]

There’s always going to be unique examples that differ, but in the main the better, more successful teams have more of the ball. 

The champions of the EPL/EFL this year finished 1st, 1st, 3rd and 1st in their respective “possession” leagues.

If you expand that to top 6 in the EPL and all the promoted / play-off sides (25) only 5 of those 25 sides finished outside the top 10 in possession in their leagues. 

Of course you need to be efficient with it as well, but it’s hardly as if we’ve found the perfect formula prior. 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

55 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

We lost 9-0 to Man United with 25% possession. Just saying.

And what, if anything, do you infer from that?

[CSA96]

9 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

And what, if anything, do you infer from that?

Probably about the same as he infers from Arsenal having 82% possession yesterday and losing 1-0? Which was Lighthouse's entire point.

[Whitey Grandad]

11 minutes ago, CSA96 said:

Probably about the same as he infers from Arsenal having 82% possession yesterday and losing 1-0? Which was Lighthouse's entire point.

So can we all agree that possession for possession’s sake is a waste of time?

[Whitey Grandad]

23 minutes ago, littledavewatson said:

There’s always going to be unique examples that differ, but in the main the better, more successful teams have more of the ball. 

The champions of the EPL/EFL this year finished 1st, 1st, 3rd and 1st in their respective “possession” leagues.

If you expand that to top 6 in the EPL and all the promoted / play-off sides (25) only 5 of those 25 sides finished outside the top 10 in possession in their leagues. 

Of course you need to be efficient with it as well, but it’s hardly as if we’ve found the perfect formula prior. 

 

But is that cause or effect? 

[CSA96]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

So can we all agree that possession for possession’s sake is a waste of time?

Context will always decide the shade of grey. I don't think it's ever black or white with possession, tbh.

If you're performing to expectations or above expectations, say at the top end of the league, but you take a chunk of each game as possession for possession's sake (Man City, Burnley, Arsenal in years gone by etc) to keep the opponent at arm's length and protect your advantage, then fine. But if you're chasing a playoff/promotion spot and losing valuable time while you're chasing a result, then possession for possession's sake would be a waste, yes.

We don't know who the squad is yet, let alone how we are shaping up relative to the rest of the division. I just hope that the manager is backed properly, with the players that he wants to work with, not players that we end up with because somebody at board level knows the agent or has a prior connection. It's clear Shields was doing a bit of this in the summer and Ankersen certainly was too with the Onuachu deal and links to Rasmus Højlund and Morten Hjulmand in January.

[Osvaldorama]

Ultimately, possession or counter attacking style, it doesn’t matter how you get there, the one thing that really matters is results. 
 

This guy simply doesn’t have a proven record of results.

Choices are;

1) Rasmus is a genius and his metrics have finally unearthed the next Pep… or

2) we have made another shocking appointment. 
 

Place your bets guys. I know which way I’d wager.

 

 

[SNMPT]

5 hours ago, goodymatt said:

https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/swanseacity/news/60253/russell-martin-the-multi-million-pound-swansea-city-game-the-majority-ownership-have-won

 

A lot of shifty 'hedge-fund' egomaniacs in football ownership, with those egos getting in the way of club success.

[West end Saints]

3 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

Ultimately, possession or counter attacking style, it doesn’t matter how you get there, the one thing that really matters is results. 
 

This guy simply doesn’t have a proven record of results.

Choices are;

1) Rasmus is a genius and his metrics have finally unearthed the next Pep… or

2) we have made another shocking appointment. 
 

Place your bets guys. I know which way I’d wager.

 

 

Or, now likely IMO, no where near either of those extremes. 

 

Not seeing many better realistic options suggested. 

 

 

[The Cat]

9 minutes ago, West end Saints said:

Or, now likely IMO, no where near either of those extremes. 

 

Not seeing many better realistic options suggested. 

 

 

Of course. It's strange that there's no middle ground for some people. In fact it's more likely that we start off with some inconsistent results and then get better as the team plays together more.

[Dusic]

Strange situation assuming Martin gets appointed this week.

No value in him taking the Liverpool game as half the players won't be there, irrelevant game and high chanxe of a tonking.

But surely hard to expect Selles to do it either, especially if the club hasnt been overly communicative to him. Could see Dave Horseman taking it.

[Smirking_Saint]

7 hours ago, CSA96 said:

Context will always decide the shade of grey. I don't think it's ever black or white with possession, tbh.

If you're performing to expectations or above expectations, say at the top end of the league, but you take a chunk of each game as possession for possession's sake (Man City, Burnley, Arsenal in years gone by etc) to keep the opponent at arm's length and protect your advantage, then fine. But if you're chasing a playoff/promotion spot and losing valuable time while you're chasing a result, then possession for possession's sake would be a waste, yes.

We don't know who the squad is yet, let alone how we are shaping up relative to the rest of the division. I just hope that the manager is backed properly, with the players that he wants to work with, not players that we end up with because somebody at board level knows the agent or has a prior connection. It's clear Shields was doing a bit of this in the summer and Ankersen certainly was too with the Onuachu deal and links to Rasmus Højlund and Morten Hjulmand in January.

You’ve written a lot of sensible stuff on this thread that I’ve enjoyed reading so thank you for that 👏🏻

The thing is, all tactics have a place, all have pro’s and con’s. And all of us have a preference, Whitey clearly has his and I understand his critique.. I remember watching Spain in Qatar and thinking “All of this possession is lovely, but where is the threat ?”

The difference is Martin clearly wants to bakance the risk/reward ratio properly, it’s evidenced in his Swans being 4th in most of the attacking metrics in the Championship yet towards the botton of the goal scoring chances conceded… and I’ll probably get flamed by the Stats/Metrics nay sayers for saying that’s optimistic but football is currently built on analytics.

Martin looks a good long term appointment for a football club looking to pivot away from a form of gagenpress. I’ll make no mistake in saying Im a fan of pressing tactics, I spent a lot of time reading about them. The issue is its not an easy system to coach to players that are not elite and it’s incredibly draining.. we fade towards the end of PL campaigns under it, so its only right to ditch it in a 44 game season.

Martin isn’t the ‘name in lights’ manager that we want as a fanbase, but he is VERY highly regarded as an up and comer in football circles (as well as Carrick and Corberan). I think, given the right backing and a full pre season he could do very well for us and the more I read the more cautiously optimistic I am

[SW11_Saint]

No idea why they’d appoint Martin this week. Makes no sense to associate him with this season (also a bad omen given Jones started with Liverpool!).

New manager, new players, fresh start. Let Selles see this one out and carry the burden of the Liverpool game. 

[Smirking_Saint]

2 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

No idea why they’d appoint Martin this week. Makes no sense to associate him with this season (also a bad omen given Jones started with Liverpool!).

New manager, new players, fresh start. Let Selles see this one out and carry the burden of the Liverpool game. 

Personally think this is how it’ll play out

[CB Fry]

3 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

No idea why they’d appoint Martin this week. Makes no sense to associate him with this season (also a bad omen given Jones started with Liverpool!).

New manager, new players, fresh start. Let Selles see this one out and carry the burden of the Liverpool game. 

Whatever is announced, Russell Martin will absolutely not be managing the team on Sunday.

 

[chiknsmack]

7 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

So can we all agree that possession for possession’s sake is a waste of time?

If you have the chance to watch today's match again, there are a few moments when you can look at Brighton doing what we could be looking to do next year in a possession-based system under Martin.

23:30 is the stereotypical Brighton play. The CBs slow the game right down and virtually stand on the ball until Aribo gets bored and presses. His press forces the players behind him to follow, at which point Brighton play a couple of quick passes to get on the attack.

The first minute of the second half is the same thing; the CBs passing the ball back and forth when not being pressed, slowing moving up the pitch, then eventually playing a forward pass to a wide player.

60:30 is the best example. 30 seconds of “boring pointless possession for possession’s sake” before the Saints press invites three quick passes to get into the Saints box.

[bangkoksaint]

2 minutes ago, chiknsmack said:

If you have the chance to watch today's match again, there are a few moments when you can look at Brighton doing what we could be looking to do next year in a possession-based system under Martin.

23:30 is the stereotypical Brighton play. The CBs slow the game right down and virtually stand on the ball until Aribo gets bored and presses. His press forces the players behind him to follow, at which point Brighton play a couple of quick passes to get on the attack.

The first minute of the second half is the same thing; the CBs passing the ball back and forth when not being pressed, slowing moving up the pitch, then eventually playing a forward pass to a wide player.

60:30 is the best example. 30 seconds of “boring pointless possession for possession’s sake” before the Saints press invites three quick passes to get into the Saints box.

Fantastic if you have the right players. I wonder if we will have - time will tell I suppose. 

[Pilchards]

1 minute ago, chiknsmack said:

If you have the chance to watch today's match again, there are a few moments when you can look at Brighton doing what we could be looking to do next year in a possession-based system under Martin.

23:30 is the stereotypical Brighton play. The CBs slow the game right down and virtually stand on the ball until Aribo gets bored and presses. His press forces the players behind him to follow, at which point Brighton play a couple of quick passes to get on the attack.

The first minute of the second half is the same thing; the CBs passing the ball back and forth when not being pressed, slowing moving up the pitch, then eventually playing a forward pass to a wide player.

60:30 is the best example. 30 seconds of “boring pointless possession for possession’s sake” before the Saints press invites three quick passes to get into the Saints box.

The reason why Brighton found it easy against our midfielders and defenders is because they are useless, unfit, lack of confident and basically shit.

Every team in the last 15 games have carved them in half time and time again.

Are we going to be good at possession football? Yes very much if you can count the defenders passing it to the keeper and back. Other than that they don’t have the players capable of doing it unless we have a total overhaul which would again be madness to go with this pathetic manager choice for next season.

[DT]

Have to say I prefer ‘scoring goals football’. But hey. 
Martin is a good guy but it does still reek a bit of Rasmustwat doing a bit of  ego-look-at-me-I-found-a-gem-thanks-to-my-brilliant-unorthodox-approach. It’s probably his last go at this. Can’t help feeling that the safe choice would be a proven manager with experience of promotion. Guess we’ll just have to hope Martin is good at hitting the ground running. 

[saint1977]

7 minutes ago, Pilchards said:

The reason why Brighton found it easy against our midfielders and defenders is because they are useless, unfit, lack of confident and basically shit.

Every team in the last 15 games have carved them in half time and time again.

Are we going to be good at possession football? Yes very much if you can count the defenders passing it to the keeper and back. Other than that they don’t have the players capable of doing it unless we have a total overhaul which would again be madness to go with this pathetic manager choice for next season.

Which amongst all of the current Swansea players we are discussing Martin May want to bring to SMS, there’s one who would be most needed at CM and on Saints long list since he was at Celtic - Olivier Ntcham.

Nathan Wood has the sort of profile at CB SR would also like but may be out of our range with top six clubs sniffing.

Manning would be great but Burnley keen. 

[SW11_Saint]

5 minutes ago, DT said:

Have to say I prefer ‘scoring goals football’. But hey. 
Martin is a good guy but it does still reek a bit of Rasmustwat doing a bit of  ego-look-at-me-I-found-a-gem-thanks-to-my-brilliant-unorthodox-approach. It’s probably his last go at this. Can’t help feeling that the safe choice would be a proven manager with experience of promotion. Guess we’ll just have to hope Martin is good at hitting the ground running. 

I think I read he didn’t win any of his first 9 Swansea games (Thomas Frank suffered the same start at Brentford). He has to get off to a better start than that or the natives will get very  restless (given recent experience, understandably so). Possibly going to take a while ti bed in his preferred tactics. Some new recruits who already ‘get it’ would be useful. 

[SW11_Saint]

On 17/05/2023 at 09:19, Brissysaint said:

Do we really want just experienced in the championship though? Plenty of managers are but they’re shit in the premier league, we should be aiming to go straight back up and need a manager that can handle it.

not saying I know who that is or if they do exist would even come to us mind.

My preference would definitely have been Potter - who has experience of both - but looks like that’s a non-starter (though heard from Brighton mate’s he was keen - possibly dependent upon staying up though). 
 

Martin is a gamble no doubt, but there is at least some logic behind the appointment, unlike Jones. 

[goodymatt]

 

[goodymatt]

40 minutes ago, DT said:

Have to say I prefer ‘scoring goals football’. But hey. 
Martin is a good guy but it does still reek a bit of Rasmustwat doing a bit of  ego-look-at-me-I-found-a-gem-thanks-to-my-brilliant-unorthodox-approach. It’s probably his last go at this. Can’t help feeling that the safe choice would be a proven manager with experience of promotion. Guess we’ll just have to hope Martin is good at hitting the ground running. 

Swansea aren’t bad at ‘goals football’, 4th most goals in the league last season. Interestingly Luton (11) and Coventry (10) scored less goals than Swansea but are one game away from promotion.

Martin’s tactics make a lot of chances and limit the opponents to few chances. This makes me cautiously optimistic he will end up with a much better goal difference with a better squad than Swansea, which we really should have once the revolving doors stop spinning this summer. His should have better tools at his disposal to be successful.

The Athletic report this morning that Enzo Maresca was first offered the job. I think that’s a very strong indication that Jason Wilcox is well involved in the new manager selection. Martin’s possession based approach seems to be his preference, I don’t think this is an Ankerson individual choice like Mad Nate.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

Bbc gossip stated that Potter is one Leicester's radar. Given that they aren't likely to stay up, be interesting to see if he goes there

[Smirking_Saint]

2 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Bbc gossip stated that Potter is one Leicester's radar. Given that they aren't likely to stay up, be interesting to see if he goes there

My belief was that he’s holding out for a prem opportunity 

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

My belief was that he’s holding out for a prem opportunity 

He’ll end up at West Ham or Palace 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

Just now, Turkish said:

He’ll end up at West Ham or Palace 

We could have done a lot worse than going for Moyes if he does leave West Ham

[Smirking_Saint]

10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

He’ll end up at West Ham or Palace 

Yup or possibly even Leeds/Everton if they stay up, regardless thats 4 good potential opportunities

We are still an attractive appointment but Rodgers/Potter are out of our reach

No matter the waffle being said about Martin he has more league experience than the likes of Vieira or Gerrard or even a Jaissle or Gallardo

Carrick/Corberan didn’t want to move

Moyes would be attractive IF/WHEN he gets released but I wouldn’t want the club to wait and he just doesn’t fit the philosophies wanted right now

So who else are we left with ?

Mowbray ? Not for me

Warnock ? Absolutely not

I see people like to talk about risk but will happily look at Vieira etc that has zero championship experience and so, in my mind, carries as much risk as Martin

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Smirking_Saint said:

Yup or possibly even Leeds/Everton if they stay up, regardless thats 4 good potential opportunities

We are still an attractive appointment but Rodgers/Potter are out of our reach

No matter the waffle being said about Martin he has more league experience than the likes of Vieira or Gerrard or even a Jaissle or Gallardo

Carrick/Corberan didn’t want to move

Moyes would be attractive IF/WHEN he gets released but I wouldn’t want the club to wait and he just doesn’t fit the philosophies wanted right now

So who else are we left with ?

Mowbray ? Not for me

Warnock ? Absolutely not

I see people like to talk about risk but will happily look at Vieira etc that has zero championship experience and so, in my mind, carries as much risk as Martin

There are a lot of options out there who I'm sure would do a decent job IF there's a solid plan in place for a way we're going to play and we adjust our squad accordingly. The reason Jones was such a disaster was because we simply looked at him as doing a decent jon at Luton but ignored the fact that he was a direct, long ball merchant whilst we had a squad full of slow, technical players.

[Appy]

32 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Bbc gossip stated that Potter is one Leicester's radar. Given that they aren't likely to stay up, be interesting to see if he goes there

Wouldn’t surprise me if Potter waits a year for the England job. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

Mmm, having read through this thread I’m slightly less pessimistic about Martins appointment (assuming it happens) than I once was. If we get the squad right for him then it might work, but that’s a huge job in itself. One things for sure, if it’s possession based tactics he employs, JWP will fit right in if he stays.

[Smirking_Saint]

36 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

There are a lot of options out there who I'm sure would do a decent job IF there's a solid plan in place for a way we're going to play and we adjust our squad accordingly. The reason Jones was such a disaster was because we simply looked at him as doing a decent jon at Luton but ignored the fact that he was a direct, long ball merchant whilst we had a squad full of slow, technical players.

100% agree I said at the time it was a terrible appointment because of the timing more than anything, it was a huge ask to come in and change what was surely an ingrained tactical understanding that our players had

Ill try and dig out my posts from the time but Im sure my opinion was that we needed someone to tweak and steady NOT try to reinvent

If we wanted to go with Jones, it should of happened in pre season 

Edited 22 May, 2023 by Smirking_Saint

[Whitey Grandad]

20 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

100% agree I said at the time it was a terrific appointment because of the timing more than anything, it was a huge ask to come in and change what was surely an ingrained tactical understanding that our players had

Ill try and dig out my posts from the time but Im sure my opinion was that we needed someone to tweak and steady NOT try to reinvent

If we wanted to go with Jones, it should of happened in pre season 

Terrible?

[Smirking_Saint]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Terrible?

Yeah sorry meant terrible 😂

[Ivan Katalinic's 'tache]

Got a couple of Swansea fans in the office and they seem really disappointed he's going. Possession-based attacking football is what he'll bring, in their opinion. Sometimes a bit dodgy at the back but I guess that works for us as it's The Southampton Way!

They said he wants to be at a club who can back his ambitions financially and their US owners won't do that. I imagine he'll see us with parachute payments plus player sale revenue (and maybe even a bit more of Dragan's wealth) as giving him that backing. 

[Nordic Saint]

2 hours ago, goodymatt said:

Swansea aren’t bad at ‘goals football’, 4th most goals in the league last season. Interestingly Luton (11) and Coventry (10) scored less goals than Swansea but are one game away from promotion.

Martin’s tactics make a lot of chances and limit the opponents to few chances.

Surely, even a Russell Martin apologist like you must realize this is bullsh!t. Only 3 teams in the Championship conceded more goals than Swansea this season, and they were all relegated.

In 2020-21, his only full season at MK Dons, they conceded 62 goals. Even Saints U21 team beat them:

2020–21 Milton Keynes Dons F.C. season - Wikipedia

In 2021-22, his Swansea team conceded 68 goals:

2021–22 Swansea City A.F.C. season - Wikipedia

And this season, his Swansea team have conceded 64 goals

 

With our goalkeepers and defenders, his passing around at the back isn't going to work any better, is it?  In fact it looks like a surefire recipe for disaster.

 

 

 

 

Edited 22 May, 2023 by Nordic Saint

[miserableoldgit]

1 hour ago, Smirking_Saint said:

My belief was that he’s holding out for a prem opportunity 

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/22394774/chelsea-graham-potter-nice/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunfootballfacebook180523&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1684359551