Bad Wolf Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 On 28/12/2023 at 20:02, Saint NL said: Yeah, yeah, you got me, I called Martin an idiot after that 4 game run of losses. Ok, he's proven his worth now, but at the time my comment was completely valid. But, he's similar to Gareth Southgate in the way that the fans can't really fully take to him because of that strange reluctance to go for the kill. It's valid at any point. You pay your money and support the team so you're entitled to dislike or like the manager for whatever reason you want. Just out of interest, if you're old enough, how did you feel about Lawrie after his first season in charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 24 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said: Just out of interest, if you're old enough, how did you feel about Lawrie after his first season in charge? His first season in charge, or the first half a season he was in charge? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, VectisSaint said: His first season in charge, or the first half a season he was in charge? The one where he took us down? I'm not old enough to remember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesfp1 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Tee hee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusic Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 19 league games unbeaten, doing a great job. Excellent appointment and exactly what we needed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 There was a tweak to the tactics that helped with our upturn in form but I'll still admit I got him wrong. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Just now, Saint_clark said: There was a tweak to the tactics that helped with our upturn in form but I'll still admit I got him wrong. Me too. Could only see us going backwards during that torrid patch but fair fucks to the fella, it’s some run we’re on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_SFC Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 6 minutes ago, Dusic said: 19 league games unbeaten, doing a great job. Excellent appointment and exactly what we needed. We are now playing how he wants us to but I think the main thing from a managerial point of view is we had to appoint someone who was a great man manager, who gained the respect of the players and brought the team together after such an awful couple of seasons. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusic Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 7 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said: We are now playing how he wants us to but I think the main thing from a managerial point of view is we had to appoint someone who was a great man manager, who gained the respect of the players and brought the team together after such an awful couple of seasons. The way he has pretty much involved and energised every fit member of the squad is excellent management. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 There has been tons of discussion of Martin's "style" but he deserves huge praise for some longstanding Saints weaknesses that he has turned into strengths. He's getting the best out of his players - Bednarek is just one example of significant improvement (he's now passing the ball with vision and confidence), but there are many. I'd like to see how well he'd do with the many under-committed under-achievers we've had (like ABK); those types have been a characteristic of our club for the past three years or more. He doesn't play square pegs in round holes; everyone's role is suited to their skillset. The cohesion is quite remarkable, and the team-first ethos shines. All of them look like they really want to be here. He has actually developed a Plan B that we pull out in the middle of Plan A - the sudden delivery of a long ball over the top or through the channels; it makes it so much harder for teams to defend against Plan A (possession) when they have to keep an eye out for the early ball. We weren't doing this very much 8-10 games ago. He has instilled touchline to touchline width, and that opens space in the middle for quick one-touch passes. Acting on the recognition that Fraser needs the ball in front of him, so that he can run at a defence, has been transformative. And he seems to have built some steel into the squad. It will be interesting to see how we respond to some adversity, because we haven't seen much over this 20-game run. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toussaint Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 You have to also give Credit to the support staff. We have recruited really good characters, something you haven’t been able to say for a very long time. I also suspect there was an intervention at some stage from JW, getting Russ to adapt his style to what we see now. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabrice29 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 On 28/10/2023 at 01:19, Fabrice29 said: I find the football entertaining, certainly much more entertaining than the last few years. Enjoy watching us dominate the ball rather than watching us set pressing traps all game and hope for quick break aways. That’s subjective to be fair but I find it as equally as surprising anyone is eager for yet another change. After how ever many years of crap, I still can’t fathom why fans think the issue is the manager. Still finding the football entertaining. Hope the people who mocked me are too. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osvaldorama Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Fantastic, fantastic work. Today’s performance epitomises everything he said about needing time etc. He has made even our worst performers better, he has us competent and solid. He has us mixing it up in attack. Absolutely amazing work. Completely turned the club around. Happiest I’ve been leaving st Mary’s in absolutely ages. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gio1saints Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Thank goodness the now repentant football geniuses hating on him - and anyone who defended him, didn’t get their way and he was sacked off eh? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 19 minutes ago, gio1saints said: Thank goodness the now repentant football geniuses hating on him - and anyone who defended him, didn’t get their way and he was sacked off eh? The truth is, we'll never know.... There's every chance we could have replaced him with a manager who ended up being equally as successful... #nonsequitur Edited January 13 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gio1saints Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 19 minutes ago, trousers said: The truth is, we'll never know.... There's every chance we could have replaced him with a manager who ended up being equally as successful... #nonsequitur Now now trousers, a non sequitur it may be - but the new manager would have had to equal a record that has stood for over 100 years just to be as good as RM.’s record The likelihood is exceedingly low that a replacement for the third manager jettisoned in a year at SMS could equal or outperform that unbeaten record. I concede it to you as you’re technically correct - but from the real not semantics world point of view you know it’s so unlikely to be not worth counting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 2 minutes ago, gio1saints said: Now now trousers, a non sequitur it may be - but the new manager would have had to equal a record that has stood for over 100 years just to be as good as RM.’s record The likelihood is exceedingly low that a replacement for the third manager jettisoned in a year at SMS could equal or outperform that unbeaten record. I concede it to you as you’re technically correct - but from the real not semantics world point of view you know it’s so unlikely to be not worth counting. Fair Enough, but we'll have to agree to disagree (difficult concept to grasp on here I appreciate ) Edited January 13 by trousers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 4 hours ago, Saint_clark said: There was a tweak to the tactics that helped with our upturn in form but I'll still admit I got him wrong. I disagree about it being a tweak. His earlier pedestrian possession style was what he brought from Swansea. Now we are very different, front footed from the beginning, consistently putting the other team under pressure, which causes the other team to eventually tire, with the flood gates then opening. The opposite of the sideways, pedestrian stuff earlier, which usually ended up was wasting half a match with lost opportunities and letting the other team get organised, as well as a waste of our superior squad. I make no apologies for the earlier criticisms, but I am delighted he has turned it around brilliantly. Today the performance was almost perfect (and it would've still have been so even if we hadn't scored all those goals). For me there was never a doubt about his excellent man manager skills, but he has shown that he has learned from his past tactical mistakes and is now getting the most from his players. Well done RM! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coalman Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Today was like watching current Saints play old Saints. Danny Rohl set Shef Weds up to press and they looked good at the start just as we used to start well without scoring. But like old Saints they petered out and left massive space out wide to exploit. It's fair to say that the system Martin has them playing is far superior than we've seen since Koeman. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Dark Munster said: I disagree about it being a tweak. His earlier pedestrian possession style was what he brought from Swansea. Now we are very different, front footed from the beginning, consistently putting the other team under pressure, which causes the other team to eventually tire, with the flood gates then opening. The opposite of the sideways, pedestrian stuff earlier, which usually ended up was wasting half a match with lost opportunities and letting the other team get organised, as well as a waste of our superior squad. I've made similar observations previously but I've come around to thinking that the pedestrian version of "Russ-ball" *may* have been more down to him being worried that the players weren't ready for the front-footed version of "Russ-ball", rather than him suddenly realising after the September debacle that he needed to change the approach. At the end of the day, we may never know whether it was a pre-meditated/planned 'upgrade' of his underlying tactics or if the poor results forced him to change tack, but personally, I don't really care any more about the root cause behind what happened... I'm now looking forward rather than backwards (a bit like Mr Martin's tactics you might say...!) Edited January 13 by trousers 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 41 minutes ago, Dark Munster said: I disagree about it being a tweak. His earlier pedestrian possession style was what he brought from Swansea. Now we are very different, front footed from the beginning, consistently putting the other team under pressure, which causes the other team to eventually tire, with the flood gates then opening. The opposite of the sideways, pedestrian stuff earlier, which usually ended up was wasting half a match with lost opportunities and letting the other team get organised, as well as a waste of our superior squad. I make no apologies for the earlier criticisms, but I am delighted he has turned it around brilliantly. Today the performance was almost perfect (and it would've still have been so even if we hadn't scored all those goals). For me there was never a doubt about his excellent man manager skills, but he has shown that he has learned from his past tactical mistakes and is now getting the most from his players. Well done RM! Or maybe it just took a while for the players to get good at the new style? You know, that it takes time to learn; as was explained in every press conference in excruciating detail for months… 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabrice29 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 23 minutes ago, Patches O Houlihan said: Or maybe it just took a while for the players to get good at the new style? You know, that it takes time to learn; as was explained in every press conference in excruciating detail for months… Exactly this. People wrongly assumed what we were seeing was the end product of what Martin was aiming to bring us. I personally thought the improvement we made from last season to those first couple of months, even the bad times, was massive and gave me hope that the more he was allowed to coach them the better they would become. Still think the personnel in the squad is limited in terms of quality at the top level but keep Martin working on their improvements and keep giving him better players each window and keep watching us improve. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gio1saints Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dark Munster said: I disagree about it being a tweak. His earlier pedestrian possession style was what he brought from Swansea. Now we are very different, front footed from the beginning, consistently putting the other team under pressure, which causes the other team to eventually tire, with the flood gates then opening. The opposite of the sideways, pedestrian stuff earlier, which usually ended up was wasting half a match with lost opportunities and letting the other team get organised, as well as a waste of our superior squad. I make no apologies for the earlier criticisms, but I am delighted he has turned it around brilliantly. Today the performance was almost perfect (and it would've still have been so even if we hadn't scored all those goals). For me there was never a doubt about his excellent man manager skills, but he has shown that he has learned from his past tactical mistakes and is now getting the most from his players. Well done RM! 57 minutes ago, trousers said: I've made similar observations previously but I've come around to thinking that the pedestrian version of "Russ-ball" *may* have been more down to him being worried that the players weren't ready for the front-footed version of "Russ-ball", rather than him suddenly realising after the September debacle that he needed to change the approach. At the end of the day, we may never know whether it was a pre-meditated/planned 'upgrade' of his underlying tactics or if the poor results forced him to change tack, but personally, I don't really care any more about the root cause behind what happened... I'm now looking forward rather than backwards (a bit like Mr Martin's tactics you might say...!) 30 minutes ago, Patches O Houlihan said: Or maybe it just took a while for the players to get good at the new style? You know, that it takes time to learn; as was explained in every press conference in excruciating detail for months… Occam’s razor : The most likely explanation is probably the correct one. The last response is the right answer. The myth of the “ adjustments” needs putting to bed. All this begrudging of a manager and his team who’ve worked so hard is unseemly guys.. The factors why it took a while to get going was 1. because it takes time to learn a new system. And the learning time required is not necessarily linear. 2. Players were overloaded with instructions and were taking time digesting them. RM admits he probably stuffed them too much too fast. But it was the same stuffing not anything different. As soon as team started to get fluent in PB football RM style and shave microseconds off reaction times all of a sudden it looked like we’ve made adjustments and are playing it forwards and faster - and by inference to the argument proposed- because previously they were told not to. Inherent in the “ adjustments” mythology is that the team were specifically told to fanny around our six yard box and ultimately give the ball away or hit 450 passes in each half mainly from goalie to Cb without looking dangerous. NOT to play incisive attacking PB football. Despite RM saying that this was exactly what he did NOT want us to do. To think otherwise is just bloody mindedness. It’s a myth. nonsense. Saints been trying to play possession based incisive attacking football from the start. Go back watch his interviews where he explicitly repeatedly says he wants to move the ball faster more forwards etc. He didn’t change the tactics. The players just got better and better at it until suddenly- it seems to have clicked and we operate at a consistently high standard . It takes fewer touches to be in optimal position to take advantage in various parts of the pitch. Nobody has learned new skills. It’s still football but we do it faster more accurately more decisively now. It’s not a tweak it’s called evolution learning and getting better at a skill. Go back and read every interview with him and the players snd compare to now. Back then they were learning now the passes movements spaces covering etc are microseconds faster and done on instinct based on repetition and learning. Edited January 13 by gio1saints Didn’t make sense last para 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 30 minutes ago, Patches O Houlihan said: Or maybe it just took a while for the players to get good at the new style? You know, that it takes time to learn; as was explained in every press conference in excruciating detail for months… Compare today's performance with the likes of the ones against Huddersfield, Rotherham, Boro etc., and in most of the matches earlier in the season. It's night and day, completely different, and not "taking time to learn the new style". RM himself admitted as much in the pre match presser, where he said he'd got it wrong earlier. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 minute ago, Dark Munster said: Compare today's performance with the likes of the ones against Huddersfield, Rotherham, Boro etc., and in most of the matches earlier in the season. It's night and day, completely different, and not "taking time to learn the new style". RM himself admitted as much in the pre match presser, where he said he'd got it wrong earlier. Put your shovel away 😉 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) A tangential observation... Why do they always draw up a shortlist for manager of the month when they pretty much always give it to the manager of the team that got the most points? I could see the logic of having a shortlist if various different factors were taken into account but I don't see any evidence of that (all awards this season have gone to the team with most points each month). Here's hoping Russ can win his first award of the season for our January results. Edited January 13 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssEffCee Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 7 hours ago, gio1saints said: Occam’s razor : The most likely explanation is probably the correct one. The last response is the right answer. The myth of the “ adjustments” needs putting to bed. All this begrudging of a manager and his team who’ve worked so hard is unseemly guys.. The factors why it took a while to get going was 1. because it takes time to learn a new system. And the learning time required is not necessarily linear. 2. Players were overloaded with instructions and were taking time digesting them. RM admits he probably stuffed them too much too fast. But it was the same stuffing not anything different. As soon as team started to get fluent in PB football RM style and shave microseconds off reaction times all of a sudden it looked like we’ve made adjustments and are playing it forwards and faster - and by inference to the argument proposed- because previously they were told not to. Inherent in the “ adjustments” mythology is that the team were specifically told to fanny around our six yard box and ultimately give the ball away or hit 450 passes in each half mainly from goalie to Cb without looking dangerous. NOT to play incisive attacking PB football. Despite RM saying that this was exactly what he did NOT want us to do. To think otherwise is just bloody mindedness. It’s a myth. nonsense. Saints been trying to play possession based incisive attacking football from the start. Go back watch his interviews where he explicitly repeatedly says he wants to move the ball faster more forwards etc. He didn’t change the tactics. The players just got better and better at it until suddenly- it seems to have clicked and we operate at a consistently high standard . It takes fewer touches to be in optimal position to take advantage in various parts of the pitch. Nobody has learned new skills. It’s still football but we do it faster more accurately more decisively now. It’s not a tweak it’s called evolution learning and getting better at a skill. Go back and read every interview with him and the players snd compare to now. Back then they were learning now the passes movements spaces covering etc are microseconds faster and done on instinct based on repetition and learning. Hasn't Russell himself said he had to make adjustments? Pretty sure he said something along these lines just last week? I'm not one of those who wanted him out but I don't agree that him making adjustments is a myth. We definitely seem more willing to mix up our play and go long occasionally now than earlier in the season for example. It shouldn't be seen as a negative anyway. The best managers are those willing to adjust and compromise on their principles occasionally. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 9 hours ago, gio1saints said: Occam’s razor : The most likely explanation is probably the correct one. Correct - as part of his own learning process, Russell Martin tweaked and evolved his approach, the style of play is different, and we're playing much better now then before. Because we are a bit more direct and a bit more clinical. Russell Martin himself has developed a lot in six months, from a manager who has only ever delivered 10th place nothingness he is on the verge of the first top 6 (minimum) of his entire career. Occam's razor indeed. Edited January 14 by CB Fry 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 We have stopped playing the ponderous and slow tippy tappy and now play much quicker through the lines, with more width and hitting the odd long cross field balls to keep the opposition on their toes. Well done Russell Martin for overseeing those changes. We are playing some brilliant stuff at the moment. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gio1saints Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 We’ve stopped playing ponderous football because the players have started to master the skill and the thinking speed required to play the PB game. As an analogy that may make it clearer: It used to take me a while to knock up a spaghetti carbonara (what should be a relatively quick to make dish) - I’d leave bits of egg shells in, splash grated parmigiana over the floor, bits of guanciale would be of varying sizes, pasta water would boil over - any number of f@ck ups or inefficiencies evident in my kitchen work basically - but nowadays I can do it fast and do it well. I did not change the ingredients or the order in which things were done, the cooking times or anything. I just became efficient and proficient at doing it so it looks like Im doing something extra cheffy. 🧑🍳😇 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 the biggest change is the end of KwP tucking into CM 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 11 hours ago, gio1saints said: Occam’s razor : The most likely explanation is probably the correct one. The last response is the right answer. The myth of the “ adjustments” needs putting to bed. All this begrudging of a manager and his team who’ve worked so hard is unseemly guys.. The factors why it took a while to get going was 1. because it takes time to learn a new system. And the learning time required is not necessarily linear. 2. Players were overloaded with instructions and were taking time digesting them. RM admits he probably stuffed them too much too fast. But it was the same stuffing not anything different. As soon as team started to get fluent in PB football RM style and shave microseconds off reaction times all of a sudden it looked like we’ve made adjustments and are playing it forwards and faster - and by inference to the argument proposed- because previously they were told not to. Inherent in the “ adjustments” mythology is that the team were specifically told to fanny around our six yard box and ultimately give the ball away or hit 450 passes in each half mainly from goalie to Cb without looking dangerous. NOT to play incisive attacking PB football. Despite RM saying that this was exactly what he did NOT want us to do. To think otherwise is just bloody mindedness. It’s a myth. nonsense. Saints been trying to play possession based incisive attacking football from the start. Go back watch his interviews where he explicitly repeatedly says he wants to move the ball faster more forwards etc. He didn’t change the tactics. The players just got better and better at it until suddenly- it seems to have clicked and we operate at a consistently high standard . It takes fewer touches to be in optimal position to take advantage in various parts of the pitch. Nobody has learned new skills. It’s still football but we do it faster more accurately more decisively now. It’s not a tweak it’s called evolution learning and getting better at a skill. Go back and read every interview with him and the players snd compare to now. Back then they were learning now the passes movements spaces covering etc are microseconds faster and done on instinct based on repetition and learning. Spot on and totally agree. Once the basic skill set becomes second nature one can move on to more advanced skills with confidence. That's what we are seeing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 We have made clear tactical changes, it's not just a case of players getting better at doing the same thing. Changes include: - the main one and the cause of a lot of our fuck ups previously: full backs maintaining more width and playing the "traditional" full back role (albeit with licence to move into space infield if it makes sense to do so) - more coordinated pressing off the ball - midfielders adopting higher positions in sustained periods of possession and running beyond the defensive line, plus willingness to look for the ball over the top - more variation in forward passes from the centre backs; although there is still a methodical build up, they will look to break the midfield lines if there is an open channel 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gio1saints Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 24 minutes ago, benjii said: We have made clear tactical changes, it's not just a case of players getting better at doing the same thing. Changes include: - the main one and the cause of a lot of our fuck ups previously: full backs maintaining more width and playing the "traditional" full back role (albeit with licence to move into space infield if it makes sense to do so) - more coordinated pressing off the ball - midfielders adopting higher positions in sustained periods of possession and running beyond the defensive line, plus willingness to look for the ball over the top - more variation in forward passes from the centre backs; although there is still a methodical build up, they will look to break the midfield lines if there is an open channel All identifiable improvements agreed and all part of the advanced PB playbook required of the team @benjii- but I still consider the critical element to be the players mental speeding up and finally realisation , understanding THEN execution of the PB playbook. The identified improvements have come a priori because the players better understand where they are meant to be & what they are meant to be doing every second on the pitch, in and out of possession. Better Coordinated pressing off the ball as you’ve identified as a noticeable improvement happens for instance because ( most) every player now instinctively knows more often to be in the right place to do it- not have to work out what’s the instructions for this particular scenario and then do it. Those microseconds make all the difference in the timings and how it looks and how effective it is. Just one player not playing from the same song sheet can make the whole team look rubbish. NB. we do have a noticeable tendency still to leave the opposite flank winger relatively free and our fb is often tucked in at that time quite some distance away. And when skipper JS comes on we do play even faster from the back like he is pushing us to do it even quicker even better. Great reason to keep putting him in the team cos he is driving towards not just not losing but excellence and higher standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_SFC Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 56 minutes ago, benjii said: We have made clear tactical changes, it's not just a case of players getting better at doing the same thing. Changes include: - the main one and the cause of a lot of our fuck ups previously: full backs maintaining more width and playing the "traditional" full back role (albeit with licence to move into space infield if it makes sense to do so) - more coordinated pressing off the ball - midfielders adopting higher positions in sustained periods of possession and running beyond the defensive line, plus willingness to look for the ball over the top - more variation in forward passes from the centre backs; although there is still a methodical build up, they will look to break the midfield lines if there is an open channel Yep, THB is very good at that little ball dinked in behind as seen from goals against Plymouth and Walsall. Edited January 14 by Harry_SFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) The bottom line is that there were at least two perfectly reasonable opinions to hold back in the autumn as to how the future would pan out: (a) "guys, be patient, 'russ-ball' will come good in the end" or (b) "look, 'russ-ball' might come good in the end but my hunch right now is that it won't" Of course, it's human nature for the "told you so" brigade to proclaim that outcome (a) was much more likely than (b), which is fair enough, that's their prerogative, but that doesn't render opinion (b) any less valid than opinion (a) at the time. I once held the opinion that Ralph would take us back into Europe. Was I "wrong" to hold that opinion because it didn't come to pass...? Edited January 14 by trousers 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said: the biggest change is the end of KwP tucking into CM That was only two games though, and corresponds with the period when RM admits he tried to teach the guys too much, too quickly. (2 of our 4 losses) You could call that a tweak, but I don't think it's a big re-think. As the guys have got better at the style they've added the occasional lofted pass from THB or Smallbone, and the midfield have got better and braver at 'thread the needle' style through balls to the attackers. These skills might work well if we did get promoted and ended up with 45-55% possession: That would fit our pacy attacker's play too (Sully, Sam, SAA, Fraser, Arma) If Che stayed he could play the Pelle role; knocking down airborne through balls to runners. Incidentally Leicester are now on 4 losses too. The difference is they have drawn only 2 while we have drawn 7 (as have Ipswich). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSA96 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) On the topic of 'did Martin change things and compromise?' he was actually asked about this as the final question of the embargoed section of the press conference before the Sheffield Wednesday game. It doesn't usually go out on social media etc, so people may have missed it - but I thought this was really interesting from Martin and definitely an admission that he has made some tweaks. Personally, I don't think it's been large changes but I do think he rolled his ideas back a bit. Slightly long answer but have typed it up, so hopefully interesting... Back in September, after you lost to Middlesbrough, you said the players were working extremely hard but that the mentality needed to change. I'm just wondering how you changed that mentality? RM: It was our job to make sure the mentality changed. Not the players. It was ours, as a coaching staff. I think I was really responsible for us losing those four games in a row. It's always on the manager. We just had to try and compete more in and around training rather than [focusing on] tactics. I think we had to 'feel' a bit more, rather than think. We were thinking too much: myself and the players. I was giving them way too much to think about really. It's such a fine balance because a player does require a lot of information and it's different to the information that they'd had over a period of time before. So then you need to try and prioritise things. So yeah, I think we just cleared the decks a little bit and we competed a lot in training and prioritised a few bits that were really about feeling the game rather than thinking. As it's gone along, they are definitely feeling way more than they are thinking now. As a football player, or any sportsperson, it's really important to play with instinct. I think they're playing with their flow now, they're running for each other and they play with unbelievable courage against any opposition. However the opposition sets up, they're so brave. Seeing that from the lads is the best bit for me. We had to become braver and ourselves included as staff, we had chats on the pitches in the morning at training, you have to have a conviction in something. Then it was just about passing that on to the players. I think we have done that and as time has gone on, they've now got more evidence and feeling about what they're doing and pride in what they're doing. That then becomes a self-sustaining thing between them as our players. We're really honest with them as a group of staff and they're really honest with us. We talk about things all the time and we come to a conclusion together and hopefully work things out together. But like I said, I tell them all the time how grateful I am for what they're doing on the pitch and now hopefully they can keep going with that and keep building their trust in each other. It takes a huge amount of trust in each other to play the way I want them to play - it's ridiculous. So I hope we never lose sight of that and I don't believe they will. Even in the last couple of games when we've had some big learnings, we've seen that you can never drop off. You need to live there all the time if you're going to be the team that we want to be. Edited January 14 by CSA96 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodymatt Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 9 hours ago, CSA96 said: On the topic of 'did Martin change things and compromise?' he was actually asked about this as the final question of the embargoed section of the press conference before the Sheffield Wednesday game. It doesn't usually go out on social media etc, so people may have missed it - but I thought this was really interesting from Martin and definitely an admission that he has made some tweaks. Personally, I don't think it's been large changes but I do think he rolled his ideas back a bit. Slightly long answer but have typed it up, so hopefully interesting... Back in September, after you lost to Middlesbrough, you said the players were working extremely hard but that the mentality needed to change. I'm just wondering how you changed that mentality? RM: It was our job to make sure the mentality changed. Not the players. It was ours, as a coaching staff. I think I was really responsible for us losing those four games in a row. It's always on the manager. We just had to try and compete more in and around training rather than [focusing on] tactics. I think we had to 'feel' a bit more, rather than think. We were thinking too much: myself and the players. I was giving them way too much to think about really. It's such a fine balance because a player does require a lot of information and it's different to the information that they'd had over a period of time before. So then you need to try and prioritise things. So yeah, I think we just cleared the decks a little bit and we competed a lot in training and prioritised a few bits that were really about feeling the game rather than thinking. As it's gone along, they are definitely feeling way more than they are thinking now. As a football player, or any sportsperson, it's really important to play with instinct. I think they're playing with their flow now, they're running for each other and they play with unbelievable courage against any opposition. However the opposition sets up, they're so brave. Seeing that from the lads is the best bit for me. We had to become braver and ourselves included as staff, we had chats on the pitches in the morning at training, you have to have a conviction in something. Then it was just about passing that on to the players. I think we have done that and as time has gone on, they've now got more evidence and feeling about what they're doing and pride in what they're doing. That then becomes a self-sustaining thing between them as our players. We're really honest with them as a group of staff and they're really honest with us. We talk about things all the time and we come to a conclusion together and hopefully work things out together. But like I said, I tell them all the time how grateful I am for what they're doing on the pitch and now hopefully they can keep going with that and keep building their trust in each other. It takes a huge amount of trust in each other to play the way I want them to play - it's ridiculous. So I hope we never lose sight of that and I don't believe they will. Even in the last couple of games when we've had some big learnings, we've seen that you can never drop off. You need to live there all the time if you're going to be the team that we want to be. So basically lumped too much info on at the start, took a step back and focused on key elements and went at a pace the players could learn from thereafter to make his information into a feeling for instinctive play? That sounds like he just changed the speed/order he taught the players, rather than what he was teaching. i guess we will never know if the changes in play we have seen over time, long passes, more direct at times etc is what he always intended or a response to the 4 defeats on the trot. Either way, I like what I’ve been seeing since September, we look great. Still need to see how we do away at all the other teams chasing those top 5 spots to know how good we really are. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodymatt Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 https://theanalyst.com/eu/2024/01/southampton-russell-martin-club-record/ 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Does anyone know if the impasse with Swansea over compensation has been sorted? Apologies if I've missed it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintant Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, goodymatt said: https://theanalyst.com/eu/2024/01/southampton-russell-martin-club-record/ We have a new hipster phrase as this analysis mentions something called Field Tilt. What next I wonder? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 2 hours ago, goodymatt said: https://theanalyst.com/eu/2024/01/southampton-russell-martin-club-record/ Thanks for that - a good read. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patches O Houlihan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Just now, saintant said: We have a new hipster phrase as this analysis mentions something called Field Tilt. What next I wonder? NFPp90/sm? Negative fuckwit posts per 90 on the supporter's mongboard 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gio1saints Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 3 hours ago, goodymatt said: https://theanalyst.com/eu/2024/01/southampton-russell-martin-club-record/ Thanks. I’ve subscribed to opta analyst on back of that article. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Field Tilt 🤤 I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint NL Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 Some nice analysis of the seasons performance so far. Loads of stats for the XG fans as well. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totton Saint Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 RM has welded a popourri of loanees, new singings, youngsters and old hands (eg Bederack) into a smooth well oiled machine. He has also given KWP the freedom to use his dribbling skills to fore. He deserves all the praise going for achieving this no mean feat. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnersaint Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 (edited) On 06/01/2024 at 13:16, VectisSaint said: His first season in charge, or the first half a season he was in charge? On my 16th birthday we beat Everton at the Dell to go fourth. Champions League position today. Then we endured the first part of 74. It all went tits up. Wexham in the cup, David Smallman and all that. Trevor Francis and Bob Hatton in March at the Dell. Only drawing with Man U the following month. Edited January 17 by Winnersaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 5 hours ago, Winnersaint said: On my 16th birthday we beat Everton at the Dell to go fourth. Champions League position today. Then we endured the first part of 74. It all went tits up. Wexham in the cup, David Smallman and all that. Trevor Francis and Bob Hatton in March at the Dell. Only drawing with Man U the following month. I thought Micky Channon missing a Penalty at the Milton Road End on Boxing Day v Arsenal started our decline Met the Arsenal Goalie Bob Wilso years later who said is was one of the few penalties he ever saved and put it down to Alan Ball who told where the penalty was going to go. The same Alan Ball who helped us return to Div 1 in 1978 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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