Russell Martin

[trousers]

  On 17/12/2023 at 00:59, maysie said:

You are a passive aggressive helmet.

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We'll have to agree to agree on that...

P.s. love you too 😘

Edited 17 December, 2023 by trousers

[maysie]

  On 17/12/2023 at 01:04, trousers said:

We'll have to agree to agree on that...

P.s. love you too 😘

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I used to enjoy your posts but now your like a patronising Dell Days.

[trousers]

  On 17/12/2023 at 01:07, maysie said:

I used to enjoy your posts but now your like a patronising Dell Days.

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Are you my wife?

[Convict Colony]

  On 16/12/2023 at 19:10, trousers said:

I disagree with that characterisation. I believe Martin consciously deploys two variations of his underlying tactics... One is more passive and pedestrian, the other is more aggressive and intense. We've seen more of the former than the latter this season. No worries if you see things differently though. We'll have to agree to disagree. 

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Agree with this

[Wsaint]

To you and trousers, curious why you think he would actually do that? The one suggestion I've seen for this is to get some pressure off the results so he can go back to playing the "slow ponderous" Russ ball way, which is some weird tin foil hat shit and makes no sense at all.

[AlexLaw76]

  On 16/12/2023 at 21:50, Farmer Saint said:

I really hope we stay unbeaten, but play really fucking boring football. Be interesting to see what you lot do in that situation. 

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The point is promotion. It was clear that Martin was brought into get us promoted this season, anything less is a failure - his own words.

Already, top 2 seems out of reach (been like that for about 2 months). I know Ipswich and Leicester have been brilliant, but we are all playing the same teams (see Watford away).

We could draw loads more, remain unbeaten, and fall out of the top 6. That is not going to happen, but unless we see more of yesterday and less of Coventry away, then the playoffs will be a bigger lottery than it ought to be.

[John B]

  On 17/12/2023 at 07:48, AlexLaw76 said:

The point is promotion. It was clear that Martin was brought into get us promoted this season, anything less is a failure - his own words.

Already, top 2 seems out of reach (been like that for about 2 months). I know Ipswich and Leicester have been brilliant, but we are all playing the same teams (see Watford away).

We could draw loads more, remain unbeaten, and fall out of the top 6. That is not going to happen, but unless we see more of yesterday and less of Coventry away, then the playoffs will be a bigger lottery than it ought to be.

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I think you are being slightly unkind because it is quite possible for the team to get 90 points and still not get automatically prompted because of the form of both Ipswich and Leicester this season

In 2011 we were promoted with 89 points with in my opinon a better squad than we have today and Adkins had already had had success with them the previous season,

I think Russell has done really well to knit the team together with out a really top striker like Rickie Lambert and I lookforward to the the rest of the season

[trousers]

  On 17/12/2023 at 07:28, Wsaint said:

To you and trousers, curious why you think he would actually do that? The one suggestion I've seen for this is to get some pressure off the results so he can go back to playing the "slow ponderous" Russ ball way, which is some weird tin foil hat shit and makes no sense at all.

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I totally agree that it doesn't make sense why he *appears* (in my eyes) to alter his approach in this way, which is kinda my point...

Maybe I'm totally wrong and seeing things that aren't there. Maybe I'm going slightly deranged in my old age (just ask Lady T...!) 

All I know is that in some games we *seem* to purposely be more "front footed" (to coin a phrase) whereas  in others we *seem* to purposely be more conservative...

As I say, and in true Saintsweb tradition, I'm "happy to be proven wrong"... 

If we played like we did yesterday every week I'd be the happiest bunny on planet Earth and 'worship' (chortle) Russell as much as I did Ralph back in the day

(Footnote: maybe I should revert back to the ultra-positive / happy-clappy / benefit-of-the-doubt Trousers of old...? )

Edited 17 December, 2023 by trousers

[Convict Colony]

  On 17/12/2023 at 07:28, Wsaint said:

To you and trousers, curious why you think he would actually do that? The one suggestion I've seen for this is to get some pressure off the results so he can go back to playing the "slow ponderous" Russ ball way, which is some weird tin foil hat shit and makes no sense at all.

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I would guess if this occurs it dependent on what he thinks what the opposition would do ?

Again speculation but we oscillate too much between the Leeds, Blackburn intensity v the other games.

If he doesnt then he really needs to work on his pre-match comments and say what he says to get us to play like yesterday.

[Convict Colony]

Aside from all the above has anyone been slightly disconcerted by how Burnley who played this way last season have been able to implement it successfully in premier league.

Not sure how much has been down to losing Tella/Maatsen/THB etc, but its interesting to watch incase we do get promoted.

[Chewy]

  On 17/12/2023 at 08:05, John B said:

I think you are being slightly unkind

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You seen the guy’s avatar??

[Wsaint]

  On 17/12/2023 at 09:04, trousers said:

Footnote: maybe I should revert back to the ultra-positive / happy-clappy / benefit-of-the-doubt Trousers of old...? )

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Yes please, I do not like this alternate reality we've fallen in to.

 

In all seriousness, completely agree our performances really do seem to fall in to one of those two categories, I just can't believe that it's a choice of Russell. Surely the Leeds style performance is his aim every time, but we won't be able to pull that off every minute of every game, also it will come down to the opposition, not just how good they are but their style and way of playing, some teams will just put up a better defence and eventually we will end up with the more ponderous passing, looking or waiting for an opportunity.

 

The argument would be we need a plan b for when that happens, which I can get on board with.

[trousers]

  On 17/12/2023 at 09:29, Wsaint said:

completely agree our performances really do seem to fall in to one of those two categories, I just can't believe that it's a choice of Russell.

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If it's not a conscious decision of Russell's to approach each game differently (in terms of our levels of intensity and directness) then I guess that leads one to ponder why the players aren't playing "front-footed" in every game, if it's nothing to do with the manager.... Maybe it's just a simple case of the players not being physically capable of playing with that level of intensity and purpose each game... In which case I'll probably keep my trap shut on the matter from here on in... (Huzzah!)

Edited 17 December, 2023 by trousers

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 17/12/2023 at 07:48, AlexLaw76 said:

The point is promotion. It was clear that Martin was brought into get us promoted this season, anything less is a failure - his own words.

Already, top 2 seems out of reach (been like that for about 2 months). I know Ipswich and Leicester have been brilliant, but we are all playing the same teams (see Watford away).

We could draw loads more, remain unbeaten, and fall out of the top 6. That is not going to happen, but unless we see more of yesterday and less of Coventry away, then the playoffs will be a bigger lottery than it ought to be.

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We lost to both Ipswich and Leicester which explains a lot of the gap between us and them.

[trousers]

  On 17/12/2023 at 09:50, Whitey Grandad said:

We lost to both Ipswich and Leicester which explains a lot of the gap between us and them.

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If we played like we did yesterday I'd venture we'd come out on top if we played them now... (Yay, positive trousers is back! )

Edited 17 December, 2023 by trousers

[Wsaint]

  On 17/12/2023 at 09:42, trousers said:

If it's not a conscious decision of Russell's to approach each game differently (in terms of our levels of intensity and directness) then I guess that leads one to ponder why the players aren't playing "front-footed" in every game, if it's nothing to do with the manager.... Maybe it's just a simple case of the players not being physically capable of playing with that level of intensity and purpose each game... In which case I'll probably keep my trap shut on the matter from here on in... (Huzzah!)

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Maybe so, or maybe you are right and Russ is a complete maniac bent on emotionally torturing us for the season, we may never know.

[gio1saints]

Forum has debated the Russball style all season but it’s never been claimed that it was always going to be a vivacious watch.

And our players are still learning it. They don’t go out to deliberately look bad or look great. But both can happen in the same match, still. It can look like they’ve been given different instructions but the theme is invariably the same. 

Sometimes ( ofttimes actually ) it’s boring. Yes I know, boring. We keep the ball but don’t “seem” to be doing much apart from building up the ball possession stat. 

But I see it as in literally boring a hole in opponents mental, physical and tactical energy. We are attempting to grind teams into mental and physical despair with this style. It’s working. But also on our supporters! 
 

Goals reassure supporters so thankfully we banked four goals worth of that to prop up player and supporter trust and belief - but don’t expect the style to change anytime soon. Home or away. 


 

 

Edited 17 December, 2023 by gio1saints

[Wsaint]

  On 17/12/2023 at 09:57, gio1saints said:

Forum has debated the Russball style all season but it’s never been claimed they it was always going to be a vivacious watch.

And our players are still learning it. They don’t go out to deliberately look bad or look great. But both can happen in the same match, still. It can look like they’ve been given different instructions but the theme is invariably the same. 

Sometimes ( ofttimes actually ) it’s boring. Yes I know, boring. We keep the ball but don’t “seem” to be doing much apart from building up the ball possession stat. 

But I see it as in literally boring a hole in opponents mental, physical and tactical energy. We are attempting to grind teams into mental and physical despair with this style. It’s working. But also on our supporters! 
 

Goals reassure supporters so thankfully we banked four goals worth of that to prop up player and supporter trust and belief - but don’t expect the style to change anytime soon. Home or away. 


 

 

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Can't we just sneak in and lobotomise the opposition before the game?

[Sheaf Saint]

  On 17/12/2023 at 09:29, Wsaint said:

Yes please, I do not like this alternate reality we've fallen in to.

 

In all seriousness, completely agree our performances really do seem to fall in to one of those two categories, I just can't believe that it's a choice of Russell. Surely the Leeds style performance is his aim every time, but we won't be able to pull that off every minute of every game, also it will come down to the opposition, not just how good they are but their style and way of playing, some teams will just put up a better defence and eventually we will end up with the more ponderous passing, looking or waiting for an opportunity.

 

The argument would be we need a plan b for when that happens, which I can get on board with.

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This is the crux.

Russball is all about being patient in possession until gaps appear, rather than taking unnecessary risks and losing the ball. The quality of the opposition defence obviously plays a large part in how successful that is.

In the games where we've appeared to be more front-footed (Leeds, Birmingham, Cardiff, Blackburn), the way I see it is they were just more accommodating/naive in allowing us those gaps to play into. Other teams have been more savvy and restricted those opportunities, which then makes it look like we're not playing with the same intensity and results in a frustrating performance where we're not able to convert our dominance in possession into clear cut chances/goals.

[gio1saints]

  On 17/12/2023 at 09:59, Wsaint said:

Can't we just sneak in and lobotomise the opposition before the game?

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Best solution I reckon!😄.

If Saints were a current snooker player we’d be someone like Mark Selby I reckon. We are not a Ronnie or a Luca  Brecel. 

[The Cat]

  On 17/12/2023 at 10:00, Sheaf Saint said:

This is the crux.

Russball is all about being patient in possession until gaps appear, rather than taking unnecessary risks and losing the ball. The quality of the opposition defence obviously plays a large part in how successful that is.

In the games where we've appeared to be more front-footed (Leeds, Birmingham, Cardiff, Blackburn), the way I see it is they were just more accommodating/naive in allowing us those gaps to play into. Other teams have been more savvy and restricted those opportunities, which then makes it look like we're not playing with the same intensity and results in a frustrating performance where we're not able to convert our dominance in possession into clear cut chances/goals.

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It's this completely, this.

Some teams defend against it better than others, or are quick on the break and capitalise when we make a mistake.

This is the same at all levels for teams that play a possession game. We've done it against Man City, hell, Crystal Palace do it against them a lot. It will obviously happen.

One thing I don't get is the constant use of the phrase Russball on the forum. I find it jarring and irritating. He didn't invent this style of play. 

[trousers]

  On 17/12/2023 at 10:00, Sheaf Saint said:

This is the crux.

Russball is all about being patient in possession until gaps appear, rather than taking unnecessary risks and losing the ball. The quality of the opposition defence obviously plays a large part in how successful that is.

In the games where we've appeared to be more front-footed (Leeds, Birmingham, Cardiff, Blackburn), the way I see it is they were just more accommodating/naive in allowing us those gaps to play into. Other teams have been more savvy and restricted those opportunities, which then makes it look like we're not playing with the same intensity and results in a frustrating performance where we're not able to convert our dominance in possession into clear cut chances/goals.

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Yeah, fair point. Makes sense on reflection 👍

 

[gio1saints]

  On 17/12/2023 at 10:17, The Cat said:

One thing I don't get is the constant use of the phrase Russball on the forum. I find it jarring and irritating. He didn't invent this style of play. 

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It just saves time everybody knows what you mean. Otherwise we are debating “possession based football” which is a mouthful and can represent a broad range of styles/teams.  
Also, saying “ we are trying to play a bit like like Man City but Saints style”  does not exactly roll off the tongue. 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

  On 17/12/2023 at 10:00, Sheaf Saint said:

This is the crux.

Russball is all about being patient in possession until gaps appear, rather than taking unnecessary risks and losing the ball. The quality of the opposition defence obviously plays a large part in how successful that is.

In the games where we've appeared to be more front-footed (Leeds, Birmingham, Cardiff, Blackburn), the way I see it is they were just more accommodating/naive in allowing us those gaps to play into. Other teams have been more savvy and restricted those opportunities, which then makes it look like we're not playing with the same intensity and results in a frustrating performance where we're not able to convert our dominance in possession into clear cut chances/goals.

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I think this is persuasive. It's also worth saying that we started the season conceding lots of goals. We've tightened up now and people are saying it's boring but it's better than conceding five to Sunderland

 

[Wade Garrett]

Enjoyed yesterday’s performance.  Quicker in possession and used the width of the pitch to make more space against a 10 man defence.  Worked well.

I don’t actually mind us losing the ball sometimes by trying to be positive.  Happened a few times yesterday, but the we were so good at winning the ball back, particularly Downes, Smallbone and Aribo.

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

  On 16/12/2023 at 21:50, Farmer Saint said:

I really hope we stay unbeaten, but play really fucking boring football. 

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In other words RussBall. 

[derry]

  On 16/12/2023 at 21:50, John B said:

I agree with your sentiments but you missed out Chivers in your second sentence and I doubt Burnside played with Channon and Davies

You're quite right 62 -64. Chivers mostly replaced O'Brien. The point really is the prolific nature of the Saints football under Ted Bates. I think 112 goals one season and that was league goals. Exciting hardly pedestrian.

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[derry]

I think the next four games will have an interesting effect on the league tables and be a good guide what our chances are for the rest of the season.

[washsaint]

  On 17/12/2023 at 17:29, Lord Duckhunter said:

In other words RussBall. 

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Well, f**k off then and watch some other club.  You really are quite tiresome with your constant negativity.

[trousers]

  On 17/12/2023 at 21:33, washsaint said:

Well, f**k off then and watch some other club.  You really are quite tiresome with your constant negativity.

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Stop moaning FFS!

[Convict Colony]

As an aside of our stats i saw the stats from Bayerns 3-0 win v Frankfurt yesterday and thought what the fuck.

 

[John B]

  On 17/12/2023 at 19:41, derry said:

 

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Exactly in our promotion season in 1966 I believe Chivers scored 30 goals and Norman Dean got 15 or so

[Ex Lion Tamer]

  On 17/12/2023 at 00:30, Dark Munster said:

I don't recall anyone who did.

Incidentally, what are your thoughts on the Ipswich manager?

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There's never a risk-free appointment but he seems like he's doing a good job at Ipswich and would be a good shout for us. I thought Nathan Jones had a promising track record though

[BERMUDASAINT]

  On 17/12/2023 at 09:22, Convict Colony said:

Aside from all the above has anyone been slightly disconcerted by how Burnley who played this way last season have been able to implement it successfully in premier league.

Not sure how much has been down to losing Tella/Maatsen/THB etc, but its interesting to watch incase we do get promoted.

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I have been wondering the same thing, Burnley won the championship with possesion based football(pbf), and now are in relegation form in the PL. ManC are credited with with this PBF but have the supieriority of coach and players. Thus can a budget team pull off PBF in tbe PL? Watched Manuure and cespool game where manu tried to play out of the back, @#$% disasterous. A good pressing tean like liverpool had them panicking and giving the ball away in Manures half, this is a billion dollar team!! Then i watched  the impressive Brighton who have been punching above thier weight in this league for a few years, they play an excellent build up from the back. 

So SFC are also implementing PBF, we were poor in the beginning, but are drastically better at it now.

Our first game against SW we passed for passing sake, our first look at RM ball, I was so angry we didn't go after more goals as SW were very poor. We needed to practice our final 1/3 ball movement to score more goals which we so poor at last year.

BUT keeping an open mind to what RM was trying to accomplish, learning his methods, the endless PBF vs goals, goals,goals. I now get it. We needed to get the movement of the ball and players at the back to be right first, and it has taken a while, but we look much better, confident and assured with PBF. I now see our attacking play develope into predictable movement, passages of play that are practiced, not off the cuff like we were last year.

I like learning the tactics of different managers, and the polar opposits from RH ball (high press on steriods) to RM (keep till you sleep) is interesting, and learning the merits and pitfalls of both.

As a defensive player, I loved playing the 3rd option, Postecoglou (TOT HOT SQUIRTS) High defensive line, pushing teams up to halfway line, fast cb ready for the chip over, condensed lines never far apart blocking trough balls. Really using the defence's one "super power" of offsides.

But we play PBF, and well enough now that teams respect our play out from the back. If we have the Blackburhs that come at us, we cand have them chasing the ball, tiring them out, ideal for us. Then there is Coventry, they sat back and let us come to them, we worked harder moving around at the back then them! Leaving us to break down a team willing to take defensive positions and hope for fast counter attacks. 

Edited 19 December, 2023 by BERMUDASAINT

[Ex Lion Tamer]

  On 18/12/2023 at 16:05, BERMUDASAINT said:

I have been wondering the same thing, Burley won the chapionship with possesion based football(pbf), and now are in relegation form in the PL. ManC are credited with with this PBF but have the supiriority of coach and players. Thus can a budget team pull off PBF in tbe PL? Watched Manuure and cespool game where manu tried to play out of the back, @#$% disaterous. A good pressing tean like liverpool had them panicing and giving the ball away in Manures half, this is a billion dollar team!! Then i watched  the impressive Brighton who have been punching above thier weight in this league for a few years, they play an excellent build up from the back. 

So SFC are also implementing PBF, we were poor in the beginning, but are drastically better at it now.

Our first game against SW we passed for passing sake, our first look at RM ball, I was so angry we didn't go after more goals as SW were very poor. We needed to practice our final 1/3 ball movement to score more goals which we so poor at last year.

BUT keeping an open mind to what RM was trying to accomplish, learning his methods, the endless PBF vs goals, goals,goals. I now get it. We needed to get the movement of the ball and players at the back to be right first, and it has taken a while, but we look much better, confident and assured with PBF. I now see our attacking play develope into predictable movement, passages of play that are practiced, not off the cuff like we were last year.

I like learning the tactics of different managers, and the polar opposits from RH ball (high press on steriods) to RM (keep till you sleep) is interesting, and learning the merits and pitfalls of both.

As a defensive player, I loved playing the 3rd option, Postecoglou (TOT HOT SQUIRTS) High defensive line, pushing teams up to halfway line, fast cb ready for the chip over, condensed lines never far apart blocking trough balls. Really using the defence's one "super power" of offsides.

But we play PBF, and well enough now that teams respect our play out from the back. If we have the Blackburhs that come at us, we cand have them chasing the ball, tiring them out, ideal for us. Then there is Coventry, they sat back and let us come to them, we worked harder moving around at the back then them. Leaving us to break down a team willing to take defensive positions and hope for fast counter attacks. 

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When I remember how Ralph's teams used to run out of gas for long spells of a season, I wonder if we might see a fitness dividend towards the end of this season from our possession game. It's possibly already there given how consistent our team selection has been able to be

Edited 19 December, 2023 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Convict Colony]

yeah maybe 2nd half of the season others fade and we come on strong, its interesting and good points gents will be interesting to watch.

[notnowcato]

It's possible that when we get into the final 10-15 games of the season more of our opponents will be less inclined to sit back and hope for a draw as they will have something to play for.  The condensed nature of the Championship means that more teams will either be involved in promotion or relegation battles of some sort.

[Maggie May]

  On 18/12/2023 at 16:05, BERMUDASAINT said:

Burley won the chapionship

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When did George Burley win GQ Man of the Year?

[Ted Bates Statue]

  On 19/12/2023 at 18:40, Maggie May said:

When did George Burley win GQ Man of the Year?

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When his win percentage made him one statistically our greatest manager since Lawrie Mac (let's not mention that almost everyone else had to contend with the added difficulties of competing in a higher division).

[Miltonaggro]

  On 19/12/2023 at 18:40, Maggie May said:

When did George Burley win GQ Man of the Year?

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JW Man of the Year*

* Johnny Walker

[Dusic]

15 matches unbeaten, transformed style of play (at club's request), involving almost all players in the squad and on the cusp of 2pts/game.

Very good job so far!

Edited 23 December, 2023 by Dusic

[swannymere]

Please tell me this joker of a manager is getting sacked soon, i don't think my family or colleagues can take the level mood as opposed to the usual subdued or angry version.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Our 12-game form is now better than Leeds and Ipswich. We've scored nearly as many goals as the others and no one has conceded fewer than us

[CB Fry]

Ipswich have "dropped off" but still running at 24 points from 12, 2 points a game, automatic form.

[JRM]

  On 23/12/2023 at 23:25, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Our 12-game form is now better than Leeds and Ipswich. We've scored nearly as many goals as the others and no one has conceded fewer than us

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12 games is quite a big sample as well so decent run, Watford stand out as a surprise team there, can see them making the play offs. 

Defensively it's been a huge shift for Saints, from worst defence to the best, made all the difference. 

[Osvaldorama]

Starting to dream we can actually catch Ipswich. 
 

Look a lot more dangerous and more solid now. v v impressed with how Martin has turned us around. 
 

Some astute signings in Jan and we can pull it off. Up the saints 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

 

[rallyboy]

I see the boss didn't travel back with the players because he and the coaches were going straight back to the training ground to review the video and prepare for Boxing Day.

Great commitment, he deserves success, just for making the matchday experience 50 times better than the past two seasons - we're in a good place right now, let's enjoy it.

COYR

[AlexLaw76]

  On 24/12/2023 at 17:57, rallyboy said:

I see the boss didn't travel back with the players because he and the coaches were going straight back to the training ground to review the video and prepare for Boxing Day.

Great commitment, he deserves success, just for making the matchday experience 50 times better than the past two seasons - we're in a good place right now, let's enjoy it.

COYR

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Great commitment? His job you mean?

[Bad Wolf]

Love him!