The 2024 General Election - July 4th

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Can we ask why (1) you are surprised, and (2) why are you so obsessed with it ?

Most people understand the situation perfectly well, but couldn't give as toss as they view Reform as a fringe nuisance that will do a public service by diluting the Tory vote. They have a perfect right to stand, and for most of us we will exercise our right to ignore them.

Were you this bad last time around, obsessing over Labour's links to the far left ?

Calm down. I didn’t say anything about being surprised. I am not obsessed with it. I mentioned it because someone said that Reform were not linked with far right politics. I have never heard of this Raikes bloke until the reports today that he was linked with 41 Reform candidates. Given the rise of far right politics through Europe surely it is worth making it clear to people where their vote might be going? Not everyone has their finger on the pulse as you do.

No one is saying that they do not have a right to stand, but they are not some cuddly little party and a safe place for the disaffected moderate Tory voters.They need to be exposed for what many of the candidates are - supporters of a far right agenda.

You call them a fringe nuisance but they are already showing well n the polls for a new party and with someone like Farage in the headlines everyday there is no reason why their influence cannot grow. Look at the damage Farage and his followers did over Brexit, and that was outside of Parliament.

I see the Chuckle Brothers are back again. Fascists are always good for a laugh aren’t they?

 

Edited June 12 by sadoldgit

[buctootim]

40 minutes ago, aintforever said:

This. I went to a comprehensive school during the Thatcher years and it was a complete dump, I remember one class that was about careers and one kid said he wanted to be an airline pilot and everyone laughed, including the teacher. I was lucky that my dad had been to uni and encouraged me to do so as well, to many kids it was something that never even occurred to them as being possible.

My other half was the first in her family to get a degree, she's a maths genius but only thought of going after meeting me. It just wasn't something her family did.

Same. I left school at 16 and only went to university in my mid 20s when I realised I didnt want to do menial low paid jobs the rest of my life.   

So many school buildings are not fit for purpose - old, decrepit, too small and lack facilities and equipment.  The irony is building new schools doesnt usually cost that much once you take into account energy savings and reduction in maintenance.  

Edited June 12 by buctootim

[AlexLaw76]

[Sheaf Saint]

37 minutes ago, aintforever said:

This. I went to a comprehensive school during the Thatcher years and it was a complete dump, I remember one class that was about careers and one kid said he wanted to be an airline pilot and everyone laughed, including the teacher. I was lucky that my dad had been to uni and encouraged me to do so as well, to many kids it was something that never even occurred to them as being possible.

Exactly my experience only without the encouraging dad, so it never even crossed my mind that I could go to uni. The careers advice at my school was just a joke. There was never any engagement or analysis to see what my actual skills were or what I enjoyed. It was just "here's a list of places you can go to get advice on possible apprenticeships".

[Lord Duckhunter]

38 minutes ago, aintforever said:

remember one class that was about careers and one kid said he wanted to be an airline pilot and everyone laughed, including the teacher.

Thats funny because I had the exact opposite with one of my kids. He hated school & was pretty poor academically. He told the careers teacher he wanted to be an airline pilot & therefore came home with a load of information. He was about 13/14 at time, in all the bottom groups. At the next parents evening I kicked off at them, asking why careers advice couldn’t be more realistic. All off a sudden I’m the bad guy for “not believing in him”. He ended up a marine engineer, working on high end boats, which he loves. We still laugh at it now, if only I’d believed in him, he’d be flying Dreamliners. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

32 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I am not obsessed with it.

I’m calling pony on this one. 

[Turkish]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If you achieve the same as a privately educated rich kid, then clearly you’ve done it a harder way & had to work harder. BUT that doesn’t make him any less of a person or deserving of criticism.
 

It’s about authenticity. What’s wrong with Sunak saying “I had an easy upbringing because of my parents hard work”. Only a class warrior fuck wit would have an issue with that. It certainly happened to me.  never known hunger or poverty, whereas my father grew up with a disabled Dad before the welfare state existed, so did. It’s funny because him & my Gran spent years wanting people to think they were middle class and not poor,  whereas nowadays politicians want people to think they were. 

I wanna live like common people
I wanna do whatever common people do
Wanna sleep with common people
I wanna sleep with common people
Like you
Oh what else could I do
I said I'll, I'll see what I can do

[Turkish]

46 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Thats funny because I had the exact opposite with one of my kids. He hated school & was pretty poor academically. He told the careers teacher he wanted to be an airline pilot & therefore came home with a load of information. He was about 13/14 at time, in all the bottom groups. At the next parents evening I kicked off at them, asking why careers advice couldn’t be more realistic. All off a sudden I’m the bad guy for “not believing in him”. He ended up a marine engineer, working on high end boats, which he loves. We still laugh at it now, if only I’d believed in him, he’d be flying Dreamliners. 

I had a great time at school, i didn't get very good career advice because like most kids i had no idea what i wanted to do other than be a footballer. None of my family went to uni, we were all working class council estate family. I didnt want to be a manual worker like my dad and brothers so got an office job with a day release at college which i hated and was boring as fuck. After dicking about for a few years in lowish level jobs, discovering booze and birds and any glimmering prospect of being a footballer receding by the day i realised you could make a shit ton of money and have a right laugh working in sales which i've done for the last 25 years.

It's quite amusing to see all the smug kids from school on social media that thought they were to dogs bollocks because they were great at maths with their pointless degrees with their boring wives and kids while i've had a right crack, travelled the world and earned a shit load (realtive to them) whilst doing it. there in lies my unremarkable story, but what it does prove is the world needs people who work hard and have character, not a load more boring fuckers who are good at algebra. 

Edited June 12 by Turkish

[badgerx16]

12 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I wanna live like common people
I wanna do whatever common people do
Wanna sleep with common people
I wanna sleep with common people
Like you
Oh what else could I do
I said I'll, I'll see what I can do

Laugh along with the common people
Laugh along, even though they're, they're laughing at you
And the stupid things that you do
Because you think that poor is cool

 

[whelk]

20 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I had a great time at school, i didn't get very good career advice because like most kids i had no idea what i wanted to do other than be a footballer. None of my family went to uni, we were all working class council estate family. I didnt want to be a manual worker like my dad and brothers so got an office job with a day release at college which i hated and was boring as fuck. After dicking about for a few years in lowish level jobs, discovering booze and birds and any glimmering prospect of being a footballer receding by the day i realised you could make a shit ton of money and have a right laugh working in sales which i've done for the last 25 years.

It's quite amusing to see all the smug kids from school on social media that thought they were to dogs bollocks because they were great at maths with their pointless degrees with their boring wives and kids while i've had a right crack, travelled the world and earned a shit load (realtive to them) whilst doing it. there in lies my unremarkable story, but what it does prove is the world needs people who work hard and have character, not a load more boring fuckers who are good at algebra. 

Quite subjective that you see your life as having a crack and theirs as boring. Sure it doesn’t apply to you but some of the most boring people I have encountered have worked in sales and see wealth as defining their character bragging about commission etc.
 

Edited June 12 by whelk

[Turkish]

17 minutes ago, whelk said:

Quite subjective that you see your life as having a crack and theirs as boring. Sure it doesn’t apply to you but some of the most boring people I have encountered have worked in sales and see wealth as defining their character bragging about commission etc.
 

Oh yeah, sales is full of dickheads too. Going on about their commissions, cars, bullshit, bullshit bullshit. Some proper bellends. THe ones that do well are generally decent people though, the bullshitters get found out and you see them moving jobs every 18 months or so.

However what's also interesting is that of decent people i work with or have worked in sales are generally pretty successful in other areas of their life. We have quite a few former footballers working in my industry, a guy i became friends with was and England Youth international and on saints books, then played for a few now league two clubs before changing career in his early 30s. 

A lot of made about getting a degree but that unless you want to work in a specialised area is it really that important, which is kind of the point i was making.  the amusement i get from the kids at school who were up their own arses because they were top of the top sets, went to University and would come back during holidays like the return of the messiah thinking they were a bit better than everyone else but now have actually achieved very little and appear quite miserable with how things have turned out for them, yes i know that's subjective. 

Edited June 12 by Turkish

[whelk]

38 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Oh yeah, sales is full of dickheads too. Going on about their commissions, cars, bullshit, bullshit bullshit. Some proper bellends. THe ones that do well are generally decent people though, the bullshitters get found out and you see them moving jobs every 18 months or so.

However what's also interesting is that of decent people i work with or have worked in sales are generally pretty successful in other areas of their life. We have quite a few former footballers working in my industry, a guy i became friends with was and England Youth international and on saints books, then played for a few now league two clubs before changing career in his early 30s. 

A lot of made about getting a degree but that unless you want to work in a specialised area is it really that important, which is kind of the point i was making.  the amusement i get from the kids at school who were up their own arses because they were top of the top sets, went to University and would come back during holidays like the return of the messiah thinking they were a bit better than everyone else but now have actually achieved very little and appear quite miserable with how things have turned out for them, yes i know that's subjective. 

Yeah agree that degree means less and less these days. Although I have also seen bias in my managers when recruiting in that some can put less stock on educational achievements as mirrors their situation but still a key indicator of intelligence generally, well often determination. Although definitely think exams come at wrong time for lots of lads who have ability but at stage of life when easily distracted but as in your case character can see them make up for it later on. 
And full disclosure I fucked around but was always lucky at exams and so did get a degree. 
 

 

 

[CSA96]

 

[AlexLaw76]

Happens to the best of them…

 

[ecuk268]

4 hours ago, whelk said:

Yeah agree that degree means less and less these days. Although I have also seen bias in my managers when recruiting in that some can put less stock on educational achievements as mirrors their situation but still a key indicator of intelligence generally, well often determination. Although definitely think exams come at wrong time for lots of lads who have ability but at stage of life when easily distracted but as in your case character can see them make up for it later on. 
And full disclosure I fucked around but was always lucky at exams and so did get a degree. 
 

 

 

I'm from a working-class background, passed the 11+ and went to grammar school in the 60's. 

Although our school had a wide spectrum of social classes we all got along ok and I never saw any cases of snobbery, inverted or otherwise. 

The main thing that it gave me was confidence. At the headmaster's welcome meeting he told us that we were there on merit, not because our parents had paid for us and we were as good as any children in the private schools. Society was more class conscious then so that was good to hear.

As with others, there was no history of university education in our family so it wasn't until I was in my late twenties that I did my degree.

Now retired but consider myself fortunate in that every job I've had (all involving technology in various forms) I've found interesting and generally enjoyed them. I'd hate to have had to get up in the morning to do a job that I hated or was boring.

What good education gives you is choice of where you want to go and what path you wish to take in life.

Edited June 12 by ecuk268

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, ecuk268 said:

The main thing that it gave me was confidence. At the headmaster's welcome meeting he told us that we were there on merit, not because out parents had paid for us and we were as good as any children in the private schools.

You make a great point. We live in a grammar area.  I have 4 kids, 2 went to grammar 2 didn’t. The confidence & social skills of the 2 that did far outweigh the 2 didn’t. They’ve all ended up ok ( because of the snap dragon) but the 2 that went to Grammar seem to have an inner belief the other 2 don’t . 

[Gloucester Saint]

The Sky format was SO much better than the ITV debacle and slightly better BBC multi-party set-up. Both leaders did OK, I’d like to see Starmer self-deprecate a bit more - smile slightly at the audience laughter at the toolmaker reference. Sunak got a bit tetchy with Rigby, but dealt with the audience quite well. The trouble is that the Tories are just so unpopular - the ex-Tory local chair summed it up. I also thought when he was listing all of the inter generational pledges, I was thinking ‘that’s far more than you’ve got the funding to do’. 

Cleverley is digging himself a hole here on the spin segment - they lied, tried to claim the Treasury provided the figures. Two words James Cleverley - Fiscal Drag: my taxes are still going up in the next Parliament. And with the state of our key services, they need to.

I thought 55/45 Starmer. Sky/You Gov poll much tougher on Rishi than me, registering 64/36 Starmer/Sunak.

Edited June 12 by Gloucester Saint

[whelk]

9 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

The Sky format was SO much better than the ITV debacle and slightly better BBC multi-party set-up. Both leaders did OK, I’d like to see Starmer self-deprecate a bit more - smile slightly at the audience laughter at the toolmaker reference. Sunak got a bit tetchy with Rigby, but dealt with the audience quite well. The trouble is that the Tories are just so unpopular - the ex-Tory local chair summed it up. I also thought when he was listing all of the inter generational pledges, I was thinking ‘that’s far more than you’ve got the funding to do’. 

Cleverley is digging himself a hole here on the spin segment - they lied, tried to claim the Treasury provided the figures. Two words James Cleverley - Fiscal Drag: my taxes are still going up in the next Parliament. And with the state of our key services, they need to.

I thought 55/45 Starmer. Sky/You Gov poll much tougher on Rishi than me, registering 64/36 Starmer/Sunak.

I just think there is nothing Sunak can say or do to convince anyone. Even if he did say what someone wants to hear there is too much evidence that they cannot deliver. So people talk about delivering a knock out blow? What could that possibly be? Only hope is Starmer tanks but he is too professional to make anything other than the robotic response - not ideal but not devastating for him

[whelk]

I recall Hypo moaning about Wes Streeting. I think he is a real asset to Labour. Quick witted, passionate and genuine

[rallyboy]

Had the sycophantic journalists who have been taking it easy on the government and attacking the opposition for the past eight years decided before now to call out the bullshit and spin, people like Rigby would have more street cred.

But they let all the lies go unchallenged for too long and as such they have been part of the problem.

Too little, too late.

[The Kraken]

37 minutes ago, whelk said:

I recall Hypo moaning about Wes Streeting. I think he is a real asset to Labour. Quick witted, passionate and genuine

Streeting is certainly very important to Labour. Very good on panel shows and when getting grilled, he’s often right on top of his brief.

[egg]

32 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Streeting is certainly very important to Labour. Very good on panel shows and when getting grilled, he’s often right on top of his brief.

Yep. He's bright, well prepped, speaks well, and has something about him. Possible future labour leader imo. 

[Gloucester Saint]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep. He's bright, well prepped, speaks well, and has something about him. Possible future labour leader imo. 

They’ve got some other good people there coming through - Reeves, Burnham as well when his second mayoral term finishes, Georgia Gould, Sarah Sackman, Darren Jones (watch him in action at the Post Office and Royal Mail enquiries). Rayner will be interesting to see in government, and you’ve got older hands like Cooper, Miliband, Lammy (not Hypo’s favourite but he got Starmer into the picture on D-Day not withstanding Rishi’s bloopers) and Benn to add some practical experience. 

Hoping the Lib Dem’s get back to our 50-60 seat levels and bring some fresh talent into Westminster. Davey’s having a good campaign. Tories need to re-generate if they can win 80-120 seats but I can’t see their capable younger elements like Kearns or Atkins wanting to go anywhere near a shadow cabinet led by Braverman or Badenoch, perhaps the latter if she grows up a bit and knocks the boring culture war crap on the head. Someone electable like Tugendhat won’t go near it for a few more years. They will have a lot of hapless, damaged crap left over - Donelan, Braverman, Stride, Truss, Patel (sorry Lighthouse), another ex-PM in Sunak tired and worn out, and then a load of duffers who are Cameron era and well before from the shires. Jenryck the least damaged on the right but if people say Starmer lacks personality…

Financially, they are already struggling this campaign and the constant culture wars haven’t helped them. Not surprised some of their right wing are eyeing up Tice’s £££.

Edited June 12 by Gloucester Saint

[sadoldgit]

It will make a change to have a decent front bench with normal people who genuinely seem keen to get on with the job of turning things around and putting the needs of the country first. Goodbye massive egos, self interest and total incompetence.  Starmer might not set the stage alight but he has put a strong team together and is solid and focussed. He has the makings of a good, if workmanlike PM which is no bad thing after the succession of hopeless/flakey predecessors.

Agree with the comments about Wes Streeting. He is on LBC a lot and always comes across well as he does on QT.

[Fan The Flames]

What's this super majority stuff, a few Tories came out with it yesterday. It doesn't mean anything in the UK. More Tory bollocks.

[rallyboy]

Interesting stats analysis by Ed Conway on Sky, explaining the fine detail of manifesto claims, in layman's terms.

For instance, when the PM says that inflation is back to normal, which could be construed as technically true, in reality the chart looks like a car crash.

Ditto for taxation.

Get beyond the sound bites.

[AlexLaw76]

42 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Interesting stats analysis by Ed Conway on Sky, explaining the fine detail of manifesto claims, in layman's terms.

For instance, when the PM says that inflation is back to normal, which could be construed as technically true, in reality the chart looks like a car crash.

Ditto for taxation.

Get beyond the sound bites.

Thoughts on sound bites (bullshit) from any of the other parties?

[rallyboy]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Thoughts on sound bites (bullshit) from any of the other parties?

Any actual thoughts?

[Fan The Flames]

Keir's first steps for change:

Deliver economic stability
Cut NHS waiting times
Launch a new Border Security Command
Set up Great British Energy
Crack down on antisocial behaviour
Recruit 6,500 new teachers

I'd vote for that.

[badgerx16]

7 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Keir's first steps for change:

......

Recruit 6,500 new teachers

I'd vote for that.

Then find a way to keep them in the position for longer than 3 years. Retention is as big a problem as recruitment.

Edited June 13 by badgerx16

[Whitey Grandad]

12 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You make a great point. We live in a grammar area.  I have 4 kids, 2 went to grammar 2 didn’t. The confidence & social skills of the 2 that did far outweigh the 2 didn’t. They’ve all ended up ok ( because of the snap dragon) but the 2 that went to Grammar seem to have an inner belief the other 2 don’t . 

Self confidence can work wonders.

[Colinjb]

9 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Recruit 6,500 new teachers

I say this as a teacher in the subject with the greatest skills shortage. (Science)

No chance. You will not find enough people with the right qualifications willing to work in the profession. The wages and working conditions simply do not match their expectations.

Edited June 13 by Colinjb

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Then find a way to keep them in the position for longer than 3 years. Retention is as big a problem as recruitment.

I know, how do they pivot from what gets them in to power to something more progressive.

It's difficult, a very narrow consensus has developed that the big parties have to operate within. Move outside of that and the electorate gets nervous, stay inside and you might not have the tools to deliver real change.

[Fan The Flames]

3 minutes ago, Colinjb said:

I say this as a teacher in the subject with the greatest skills shortage. (Science)

No chance. You will not find enough people with the right qualifications willing to work in the profession. The wages and working conditions simply do not match their expectations.

Sad isn't it. What do you reckon they need to do to achieve it, teacher courses with no uni fees and higher wages?

[Colinjb]

8 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Sad isn't it. What do you reckon they need to do to achieve it, teacher courses with no uni fees and higher wages?

The biggest issue firstly is wages. All teachers, regardless of subject are on the same payscale. This means that in terms of pure money, PE and Art (Not wishing to disparage, but clearly very different disciplines) are regarded as the same as Science. So, how are you going to entice those across with lower wages? The unions will never agree to subject specific payscales, but we have a situation where subjects like Art, Photography, PE have a surplus of applicants (because they will earn more in teaching) and the more traditionally academic subjects, especially science, have a shortage.

Also, in Science, you are teaching three subjects. As there are less of you, you work to full capacity. This means that you are more vital in your existing role, less able to engage with activities that could strengthen your career development (E.g. desire to be a head of year...) so career progression will be difficult, especially if you are in a stable school that isn't constantly churning staff.

Further to this, you would be walking into an atmosphere which needs personal resilience. You will be widely disrespected by students and heaven forbid you are in a school with weak leadership. The mix of academic ability, indifference over wages being less then you would get elsewhere and social worker mindset is very rare.

The only reason I switched is because i've always liked working with children (Ex youth football coach) and I have an Engineering degree, after getting dissillusioned in my old life, and with a big fat bursary to keep up with mortgage payments while I trained, the switch made sense. I love my job, but it is absolutely not for everyone.

 

Edited June 13 by Colinjb

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

Sad isn't it. What do you reckon they need to do to achieve it, teacher courses with no uni fees and higher wages?

Mostly it is the working conditions, both in the classroom and out. The urban myth of 'long holidays' is readily debunked by the paperwork and preparation for the folowing term, let alone the first several days of trying to de-stress, and the other one about working hours is shattered by the reality of time needed before and after the pupils are in attendance plus losing much of Sunday to marking and planning.

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

3 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

What's this super majority stuff, a few Tories came out with it yesterday. It doesn't mean anything in the UK. More Tory bollocks.

I think it's a blatant attempt at route 1 reverse physchology.

Suspect the hope is that it will simultaneously rally the older Tory voters in to coming out in force whilst hoping it'll cause some voter apathy from labour supporters who are assuming it'll be a decent result no matter what (which lets be honest, it will be).

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

What's this super majority stuff, a few Tories came out with it yesterday. It doesn't mean anything in the UK. More Tory bollocks.

It’s horse pony designed to frighten people away from Nigel. Once he passes a majority of 30 Starmer can pretty much do what he wants. Labour in Government tend to be more loyal & tribal than the modern Tory party, so once he doesn’t need the votes of the “Corbyn” wing, he’s got a “super majority “ anyway. It doesn’t mater if it’s 300 or 60. He’ll get everything through parliament he wants. 
 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13 by Lord Duckhunter

[Turkish]

[Turkish]

[Challenger]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

See if the " Mirror" is interested in that, you could make a few bob.

[Fan The Flames]

24 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Surely they didn't live above the shop.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

Surely they didn't live above the shop.

he was poor remember

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

he was poor remember

True, I wonder if one of the other family's they shared the flat with had the Sky TV?

[badgerx16]

Plaid Cymru say that Wales should get £4Bn from the HS2 funds. Why, it was going through Birmingham to Manchester.

[Golactico]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Much as we'd all love this pic to show what we want it to show, annoyingly the family never lived above the shop. They lived in Portswood and then moved to a big house in Bassett when the money started coming in.

[sadoldgit]

Good solid speech from Starmer , sounding very Prime Ministerial. A period of stability sounds is exactly what we need. No more drama and chaos.

[Whitey Grandad]

30 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Plaid Cymru say that Wales should get £4Bn from the HS2 funds. Why, it was going through Birmingham to Manchester.

If they can have some so can we.

[Weston Super Saint]

13 minutes ago, Golactico said:

Much as we'd all love this pic to show what we want it to show, annoyingly the family never lived above the shop. They lived in Portswood and then moved to a big house in Bassett when the money started coming in.

If they lived above the shop we wouldn't have the current moaning about Sky TV.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

3 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Keir's first steps for change:

Deliver economic stability
Cut NHS waiting times
Launch a new Border Security Command
Set up Great British Energy
Crack down on antisocial behaviour
Recruit 6,500 new teachers

I'd vote for that.

Isn't that what the Tory manifesto looked like last time around?

Apart from the energy thing.

Edited June 13 by Weston Super Saint