The 2024 General Election - July 4th

[Lighthouse]

8 minutes ago, Challenger said:

The Russians have various delivery methods via land (fixed and mobile), sea and air. We have just the one via a single (on station) sub which on the last two occasions has conducted failed test launches.

In a toe to toe nuke exchange, we (the UK ) would be runners up.

A couple of failed test launches does not mean our entire nuclear deterrent is unserviceable and even if it were, nobody is going to gamble on all of our 200+ warheads failing in a nuclear confrontation. I don't care how many delivery methods they have, they're not going to take that risk against another nuclear power. Not when, as has been pointed out, a large number of theirs are likely duds. Their military has been chronically underfunded for decades, especially when it comes to maintenance, in a world where the US claims to spend $1m per year, per warhead, simply on basic maintenance.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

I remember Blue Peter's "Build the UK's nuclear deterrent with a used washing up liquid bottle, and some cremola foam," fondly.

[AlexLaw76]

35 minutes ago, Challenger said:

The Russians have various delivery methods via land (fixed and mobile), sea and air. We have just the one via a single (on station) sub which on the last two occasions has conducted failed test launches.

In a toe to toe nuke exchange, we (the UK ) would be runners up.

 

What does various delivery methods mean in this context? The Submarine launched method is the best and most cost effective of having a credible intercontinental ballistic missile system.

In terms of runners up...how?

[Challenger]

33 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

What does various delivery methods mean in this context? The Submarine launched method is the best and most cost effective of having a credible intercontinental ballistic missile system.

In terms of runners up...how?

What other context would I use when describing ways to execute a nuclear strike  than what I described in my post ?

You are correct in your statement regarding having sub launched missiles so you obviously didn't need to ask your first question as you are obviously aware of other methods 

 

Unfortunately we only have one "on patrol" vessel and as such only have one "chance" at the nuclear end game, hence the runner up comment.

Hope this clarifies things for you, if not I won't be losing any sleep over it .

[AlexLaw76]

8 minutes ago, Challenger said:

What other context would I use when describing ways to execute a nuclear strike  than what I described in my post ?

You are correct in your statement regarding having sub launched missiles so you obviously didn't need to ask your first question as you are obviously aware of other methods 

 

Unfortunately we only have one "on patrol" vessel and as such only have one "chance" at the nuclear end game, hence the runner up comment.

Hope this clarifies things for you, if not I won't be losing any sleep over it .

One is enough to reduce the largest country inoperable and their major cities/hubs/infrastructure to dust

We would all be runners up.

[Gloucester Saint]

Farage having to duck again. Fortunately the thrower didn’t have a very good aim this time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cmjj1n030djo

[hypochondriac]

56 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Farage having to duck again. Fortunately the thrower didn’t have a very good aim this time https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cmjj1n030djo

It's disgusting to be honest. They really need to bring in extremely harsh sentences for any attacks or attempted attacks on mps to act as a deterrent. I saw Jo cox's family were expressing their concern. 

[badgerx16]

BBC interviewer Jo Coburn asking Tory MP Kevin Hollinrake questions at the manifesto launch;

"You have already announced policies on National Service, on closing Mickey Mouse degrees, on the pensioner triple-lock plus, and now this 2 pence cut in National Insurance, but all of these policies I have just announced haven't changed the polls. So what's going to change ?"

"Well, this isn't about the polls for us, it's about doing the right thing..."

"So how are you going to win then if you don't change the polls ?"

[AlexLaw76]

a decent manifesto…….
 

• Benefits to be linked to recipients BMI
• Migrants to undergo a visual fitness test
• Business rates on Turkish and Kurdish barbers to be 150% of 'turnover'
• All green subsidies to be suspended until the UK reaches 25 degrees on at least three consecutive. days.
• The French to donate 3 nuclear power stations to make up for the time taken to build Hinkley Point
• All knives and forks to be replaced with plastic ones in London until they learn how to stop stabbing eachother.
• Just Stop Oil to have all access to fossil fuels removed from their lives and those of their parents.
• Thousands of prison places to be freed up by allowing free intermingling between normal prisoners and the nonce wing.
• Gary Lineker to be investigated.
• Scotland and Wales to be granted independence as soon walls are built around both, ditto The North, London, The South West and The West Midlands.
• Demand for reparations for all infrastructure built by the British Empire.
• 21-gun salute for every surviving D-Day veteran on their birthday.

[sadoldgit]

10 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

a decent manifesto…….
 

• Benefits to be linked to recipients BMI
• Migrants to undergo a visual fitness test
• Business rates on Turkish and Kurdish barbers to be 150% of 'turnover'
• All green subsidies to be suspended until the UK reaches 25 degrees on at least three consecutive. days.
• The French to donate 3 nuclear power stations to make up for the time taken to build Hinkley Point
• All knives and forks to be replaced with plastic ones in London until they learn how to stop stabbing eachother.
• Just Stop Oil to have all access to fossil fuels removed from their lives and those of their parents.
• Thousands of prison places to be freed up by allowing free intermingling between normal prisoners and the nonce wing.
• Gary Lineker to be investigated.
• Scotland and Wales to be granted independence as soon walls are built around both, ditto The North, London, The South West and The West Midlands.
• Demand for reparations for all infrastructure built by the British Empire.
• 21-gun salute for every surviving D-Day veteran on their birthday.

Is this from the Delldays Party manifesto?

[sadoldgit]

16 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

BBC interviewer Jo Coburn asking Tory MP Kevin Hollinrake questions at the manifesto launch;

"You have already announced policies on National Service, on closing Mickey Mouse degrees, on the pensioner triple-lock plus, and now this 2 pence cut in National Insurance, but all of these policies I have just announced haven't changed the polls. So what's going to change ?"

"Well, this isn't about the polls for us, it's about doing the right thing..."

"So how are you going to win then if you don't change the polls ?"

It is just a shame that they haven’t bothered to do the right thing for the last 14 years.

[Gloucester Saint]

54 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's disgusting to be honest. They really need to bring in extremely harsh sentences for any attacks or attempted attacks on mps to act as a deterrent. I saw Jo cox's family were expressing their concern. 

The Sir David Amess murder as well, and the attempted Lib Dem sword attack further back, on the more severe end of the scale. It’s all poor though and shit behaviour.

 

[hypochondriac]

28 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

The Sir David Amess murder as well, and the attempted Lib Dem sword attack further back, on the more severe end of the scale. It’s all poor though and shit behaviour.

 

It's really worrying that anyone thinks this sort of thing is remotely acceptable. Many in the media are trivialising it too, essentially laughing at Farage getting a milkshake in his face and basically encouraging repeats. It doesn't matter what political persuasion you are, even the likes of nick Griffin deserves to campaign in an election without the threat of violence. Defeat people with ideas and argument. 

[whelk]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

It's really worrying that anyone thinks this sort of thing is remotely acceptable. Many in the media are trivialising it too, essentially laughing at Farage getting a milkshake in his face and basically encouraging repeats. It doesn't matter what political persuasion you are, even the likes of nick Griffin deserves to campaign in an election without the threat of violence. Defeat people with ideas and argument. 

There is a huge difference between a milkshake and a planned machete attack that murders an MP. A deterrent would have no impact to the latter.

Agree the former shouldn’t be encouraged but I don’t see the link to Jo Cox and David Amess 

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, whelk said:

There is a huge difference between a milkshake and a planned machete attack that murders an MP. A deterrent would have no impact to the latter.

Agree the former shouldn’t be encouraged but I don’t see the link to Jo Cox and David Amess 

Yes I see your point and I can see the difference, I still think that treating any attacks on politicians and the idea that it's socially acceptable is going to lead to a climate where people think it's an OK thing to do. You're right that there will always be terror attacks of some kind but during an election in particular, any attacks should be cracked down on. 

[sadoldgit]

This policy is a no brainer.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/11/general-election-latest-news-rishi-sunak-keir-starmer/

[The Kraken]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

This policy is a no brainer.

It takes one to know one lol rofl

[Tamesaint]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

a decent manifesto…….
 

• Benefits to be linked to recipients BMI
• Migrants to undergo a visual fitness test
• Business rates on Turkish and Kurdish barbers to be 150% of 'turnover'
• All green subsidies to be suspended until the UK reaches 25 degrees on at least three consecutive. days.
• The French to donate 3 nuclear power stations to make up for the time taken to build Hinkley Point
• All knives and forks to be replaced with plastic ones in London until they learn how to stop stabbing eachother.
• Just Stop Oil to have all access to fossil fuels removed from their lives and those of their parents.
• Thousands of prison places to be freed up by allowing free intermingling between normal prisoners and the nonce wing.
• Gary Lineker to be investigated.
• Scotland and Wales to be granted independence as soon walls are built around both, ditto The North, London, The South West and The West Midlands.
• Demand for reparations for all infrastructure built by the British Empire.
• 21-gun salute for every surviving D-Day veteran on their birthday.

You missed off Saints having an automatic bye every year to the FA Cup Final. 

[The Kraken]

[Lord Duckhunter]

10 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

It's really worrying that anyone thinks this sort of thing is remotely acceptable. Many in the media are trivialising it too,

They seem incapable of understanding that normalising this behaviour because it’s Nigel is incredibly short sighted. It needs to be stamped out now with harsh sentencing no matter who is on the receiving end. For a “comedy” aired on the national broadcaster to joke about it is pretty disgusting TBH. Still it’s only Nigel, the hand wringing will come when a far right fuckwit attacks Abbott or Starmer. 
 

 

 

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

They seem incapable of understanding that normalising this behaviour because it’s Nigel is incredibly short sighted. It needs to be stamped out now with harsh sentencing no matter who is on the receiving end. For a “comedy” aired on the national broadcaster to joke about it is pretty disgusting TBH. Still it’s only Nigel, the hand wringing will come when a far right fuckwit attacks Abbott or Starmer. 
 

 

 

Won't be so funny if someone uses acid next. Or someone actually connects with a brick on a politician. 

[Danbert]

8 hours ago, The Kraken said:

When growing up, the poor child had to do without Sky so his parents could afford to send him to Winchester College

[Holmes_and_Watson]

47 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

They seem incapable of understanding that normalising this behaviour because it’s Nigel is incredibly short sighted. It needs to be stamped out now with harsh sentencing no matter who is on the receiving end. For a “comedy” aired on the national broadcaster to joke about it is pretty disgusting TBH. Still it’s only Nigel, the hand wringing will come when a far right fuckwit attacks Abbott or Starmer. 
 

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Won't be so funny if someone uses acid next. Or someone actually connects with a brick on a politician. 

These. No one should be the target of this. For any reason, and certainly not when standing for office. Whatever the party they are legally standing for.

Simply drags our democracy down.

Hypo's mention of acid reminded me of Jo Brand's 2019 comment:

 "Certain unpleasant characters are being thrown to the fore and they’re very, very easy to hate and I’m kind of thinking: “Why bother with a milkshake when you could get some battery acid?”

She added: "That’s just me, sorry. I’m not gonna do it, it’s purely a fantasy, but I think milkshakes are pathetic, I honestly do. Sorry."

I caught the show at the time. I remember a very uncomfortable silence. The part beginning "That's just me..." was what Brand said as the audience were still quiet, with the odd unsettled chuckle.

It was a terrible comment, and everyone there knew it. It should never have been broadcast, as it feeds into the normalisation or targeting, with violence, of certain views.

[sadoldgit]

16 minutes ago, Danbert said:

When growing up, the poor child had to do without Sky so his parents could afford to send him to Winchester College

It just goes to show how removed this guy is from normal life if this is what he considers to be a level of deprivation. He just keeps digging that hole. Perhaps he needs to watch Monty Python’s four Yorkshiremen’s sketch?

[badgerx16]

25 minutes ago, Danbert said:

When growing up, the poor child had to do without Sky so his parents could afford to send him to Winchester College

He also apologised to ITV for being late for the interview because the D-Day commemorations overran.

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

 

These. No one should be the target of this. For any reason, and certainly not when standing for office. Whatever the party they are legally standing for.

Simply drags our democracy down.

Hypo's mention of acid reminded me of Jo Brand's 2019 comment:

 "Certain unpleasant characters are being thrown to the fore and they’re very, very easy to hate and I’m kind of thinking: “Why bother with a milkshake when you could get some battery acid?”

She added: "That’s just me, sorry. I’m not gonna do it, it’s purely a fantasy, but I think milkshakes are pathetic, I honestly do. Sorry."

I caught the show at the time. I remember a very uncomfortable silence. The part beginning "That's just me..." was what Brand said as the audience were still quiet, with the odd unsettled chuckle.

It was a terrible comment, and everyone there knew it. It should never have been broadcast, as it feeds into the normalisation or targeting, with violence, of certain views.

Absolutely well said. The hypocrisy is stunning and it should not be the case that this sort of thing is OK because you don't happen to like the politician. It's not a bit of a laugh it's a serious thing. 

[badgerx16]

The UK economy showed zero growth in April. Have the green shoots of recovery withered away ?

[sadoldgit]

The Green’s are being honest about their tax plans. They can afford to be as they are not going to be challenging for no 10 but it is refreshing to see a party willing to be so up front about their plans.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I don’t understand why these politicians have to pretend they’ve had it tough. Sunak is making a fool of himself, but he’s not the first one. It’s been going on for years. 
 

Im reading a biography of Churchill at the moment, without doubt the political figure that connected with the masses more than any other. But he didn’t dial a telephone number himself until he was 74, took his man servant to the front line when in the cavalry, revived a wedding present from the king & never cooked a meal in his life. His philosophy was that he was going to use his vast privilege to fight for ordinary people. He fell out with most of his peers when crossing the house & helping curtail the Lords influence, way before his WW2 stuff. 
 

Sunaks got a great back story immigrant parents doing so well that they can send their child to private school and ensure he’ll never go without. What’s wrong with that narrative, it’s a great British story. Trying to shoehorn a false narrative into it takes us all for fools. Mind you Starmer is pushing the envelop on that himself, he’s a middle class bloke (not that there’s anything wrong with that). 
 

It’s not just politics, music is the same. Middle class Grammar school boys Rolling Stones, Pete Townsend & John Lennon the only middle class member of The Beatles singing “a working class hero, is something to be” . It’s not your fault your born poor, and it’s not your fault your born wealthy, just cut out the pony and people will accept you for what you are. 

[sadoldgit]

It is baffling that people will still vote for Sunak and his dreadful party in their millions. I can understand how the dyed in the wool Conservatives might find it hard to vote for another Party, but wouldn’t it be brilliant if they stayed at home or spoiled their ballot papers, wiping the Tories out and sending a massive message to them and future governments that this level of failure and incompetence is not acceptable.

Edited June 12 by sadoldgit
Typo

[Fan The Flames]

There's a lot of people on radio phone ins about private schools, saying that if people work hard, scrimp and saved way they would be able to afford to send their kids to private school. No amount of forgoing of coffees or pints and only having shit holidays would make schools fees affordable for most. You can only send your kids to private school if you have money or earn well, that's the bottom line that's why only 7% of kids go to them.

[sadoldgit]

The proles who moan about the cost of living and high prices are told to give up Netflix, smart phones and nail bars. Maybe these people should be told to give up on private schools if they are struggling to find the money?

[buctootim]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I don’t understand why these politicians have to pretend they’ve had it tough.

It's a way of demonstrating you're smart and motivated and it was your own ability and drive that lifted you up - instead of it all being handed to you. I'm not defending, just think that the motivation. 

btw I'm a council estate boy, labourer dad, dinner lady mum, now living a heady life in a whole different county. Do I win a prize? 

Edited June 12 by buctootim

[Fan The Flames]

7 minutes ago, buctootim said:

It's a way of demonstrating you're smart and motivated and it was your own ability and drive that lifted you up - instead of it all being handed to you. I'm not defending, just think that the motivation. 

btw I'm a council estate boy, labourer dad, dinner lady mum, now living a heady life in a whole different county. Do I win a prize? 

Exactly this. It's to pretend that everyone has the same opportunities, to not acknowledge that some have it easier than others.

[sadoldgit]

I don’t blame Starmer for using his background as a selling point. He has worked his way up and hasn’t lost touch with ordinary people. I think he has probably used it enough now though.

You have to wonder what goes on in Rishi’s head though. Didn’t he ask a homeless man if he worked in finance? If you came from a different planet Rishi, best not try and parented otherwise.

[buctootim]

 

I'm so amazed that the Tories would actually pay to put this out I cant believe its not fake. 

 

[sadoldgit]

They have clearly thrown in the towel and it’s all about damage limitation now. Still odd that the advisers think that this is the right way to go. A guy I spoke to this morning thinks that Rishi doesn’t listen to his advisers as he thinks that he knows best. Perhaps that is true, in which case, he doesn’t.

[Lord Duckhunter]

15 minutes ago, buctootim said:

btw I'm a council estate boy, labourer dad, dinner lady mum, now living a heady life in a whole different county. Do I win a prize? 

If you achieve the same as a privately educated rich kid, then clearly you’ve done it a harder way & had to work harder. BUT that doesn’t make him any less of a person or deserving of criticism.
 

It’s about authenticity. What’s wrong with Sunak saying “I had an easy upbringing because of my parents hard work”. Only a class warrior fuck wit would have an issue with that. It certainly happened to me.  never known hunger or poverty, whereas my father grew up with a disabled Dad before the welfare state existed, so did. It’s funny because him & my Gran spent years wanting people to think they were middle class and not poor,  whereas nowadays politicians want people to think they were. 

[buctootim]

17 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s about authenticity. What’s wrong with Sunak saying “I had an easy upbringing because of my parents hard work”. 

Yep I agree. As you referenced with Churchill arguably its a stronger pitch if you can say "I could have had an easier better paid life but I think social justice and mobility is vital for the future of the country and I'm here to work for that". 

The main issue for me is how few professionally successful people (as a percentage not total number) come out of the comprehensive system. Both Starmer and Sunak got head starts - a Grammar school boy and a scholarship to Winchester. Pre 18 education should be so much better than it is and needs to be a higher national priority.      

Edited June 12 by buctootim

[badgerx16]

34 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Didn’t he ask a homeless man if he worked in finance?

Would have been funny if the reply was 'I did, until the financial crash you helped engineer'.

[sadoldgit]

Can we talk about Reform’s links with the far right yet?

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/reform-uk-candidates-are-facebook-friends-with-fascist-leader-8zzhzxjkt

Who is Gary Raikes?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Raikes

Edited June 12 by sadoldgit
Added text

[badgerx16]

14 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Yep I agree. As you referenced with Churchill arguably its a stronger pitch if you can say "I could have had an easier better paid life but I think social justice and mobility is vital for the future of the country and I'm here to work for that". 

The main issue for me is how few professionally successful people (as a percentage not total number) come out of the comprehensive system. Both Starmer and Sunak got head starts - a Grammar school boy and a scholarship to Winchester. Pre 18 education should be so much better than it is and needs to be a higher national priority.      

Is it pre-18 education or social bias in higher education and recruitment post-graduation ? Old school ties and family connections.

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Can we talk about Reform’s links with the far right yet?

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/reform-uk-candidates-are-facebook-friends-with-fascist-leader-8zzhzxjkt

Can we ask why (1) you are surprised, and (2) why are you so obsessed with it ?

Most people understand the situation perfectly well, but couldn't give as toss as they view Reform as a fringe nuisance that will do a public service by diluting the Tory vote. They have a perfect right to stand, and for most of us we will exercise our right to ignore them.

Were you this bad last time around, obsessing over Labour's links to the far left ?

Edited June 12 by badgerx16

[buctootim]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Is it pre-18 education or social bias in higher education and recruitment post-graduation ? Old school ties and family connections.

For me the biggest obstacle was paucity of expectation. If your parents and rest of family are manual workers 'doing well' means becoming an electrician or carpenter. Being a doctor seems unachievable.

Yes being relatable to recruiters is also important - being able to talk about the same subjects, extra curricular activities, countries youve visited, experiences you've had. If your family arent giving you those school still can.  

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, buctootim said:

For me the biggest obstacle was paucity of expectation. If your parents and rest of family are manual workers 'doing well' means becoming an electrician or carpenter. Being a doctor seems unachievable.

Yes being relatable to recruiters is also important - being able to talk about the same subjects, extra curricular activities, countries youve visited, experiences you've had. If your family arent giving you those school still can.  

Quite often not without parental contribution, so kids still miss out.

[buctootim]

14 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Quite often not without parental contribution, so kids still miss out.

That's what I mean, a much richer programme of exposing all kids to to different aspects of life without needing a parental payment. More free school trips / visits / placements to everything from the theatre to engineering works to hospitals to whatever. I went on a free school trip to France for a week and stayed in a French school. I'd never been abroad before. Was eye opening.  

Edited June 12 by buctootim

[whelk]

TBF to Sunak he was pushed by reporter on something he has done without. He hasn’t tried to highlight it as an example of scrimping.

There’s a lot to lay at the Tories door but these cheap swipes are stupid although clearly what the public like and latch onto. Much simpler than asking to justify why council funding has reduced by over 40% whilst demand for their services are through the roof etc. etc.

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

I don’t blame Starmer for using his background as a selling point. He has worked his way up and hasn’t lost touch with ordinary people. I think he has probably used it enough now though.

You have to wonder what goes on in Rishi’s head though. Didn’t he ask a homeless man if he worked in finance? If you came from a different planet Rishi, best not try and parented otherwise.

Starmer has to keep mentioning it to counter the north London elite label that the Tories want to stick on him.

It's only those who follow politics that notice that he's said it a lot, recent focus groups show that lots of people still don't know it, and that it goes down well.

[buctootim]

32 minutes ago, whelk said:

TBF to Sunak he was pushed by reporter on something he has done without. He hasn’t tried to highlight it as an example of scrimping.

There’s a lot to lay at the Tories door but these cheap swipes are stupid although clearly what the public like and latch onto. Much simpler than asking to justify why council funding has reduced by over 40% whilst demand for their services are through the roof etc. etc.

Government funding for councils has reduced by 90% forcing them to raise council tax just to keep services at only a 40% reduction. Then the Government blame councils for extortionate rises and their bad management / waste for bankruptcies. 

Edited June 12 by buctootim

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

For me the biggest obstacle was paucity of expectation. If your parents and rest of family are manual workers 'doing well' means becoming an electrician or carpenter. Being a doctor seems unachievable.

This. I went to a comprehensive school during the Thatcher years and it was a complete dump, I remember one class that was about careers and one kid said he wanted to be an airline pilot and everyone laughed, including the teacher. I was lucky that my dad had been to uni and encouraged me to do so as well, to many kids it was something that never even occurred to them as being possible.

My other half was the first in her family to get a degree, she's a maths genius but only thought of going after meeting me. It just wasn't something her family did.

Edited June 12 by aintforever