The 2024 General Election - July 4th

[whelk]

Why has every fucker started using the word ‘blob’?

[Fan The Flames]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Why has every fucker started using the word ‘blob’?

Words change, it's now a free thinking anti-msmers derogatory term, not just the time of the month.

[whelk]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

Words change, it's now a free thinking anti-msmers derogatory term, not just the time of the month.

Aka the thick cunts

Edited June 9 by whelk

[Weston Super Saint]

26 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I would certainly agree with the need for PR but would prefer to see more centrist “blob” parties than the likes of UKIP, BNP. Sadly, with a more democratic system it gives a voice to more loonies, xenophobes and flag shaggers as well as the more well balanced people. 

Your absolute stance on freedom of speech is a very far left policy. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to accuse others of being loony's?

[Gloucester Saint]

17 minutes ago, whelk said:

Aka the thick cunts

Speaking of which https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/09/crank-tory-candidates-accused-of-sharing-online-conspiracy-theories

Reform and Tories kicking off about candidate selections and alleged educements, Nice little sparring in there between Tice and Andrea ‘middle finger’ Jenkyns who is concerned Reform (as well as her huge gob) cause her defeat https://uk.news.yahoo.com/richard-tice-accuses-tories-dirty-104518823.html

Reform also dropped two candidates on Friday - I guess C4 did their due diligence for them then! https://www.channel4.com/news/two-reform-uk-candidates-ditched-after-accusations-of-racism-and-religious-hate

 

Edited June 9 by Gloucester Saint

[Sheaf Saint]

20 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Speaking of which https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/09/crank-tory-candidates-accused-of-sharing-online-conspiracy-theories

Reform and Tories kicking off about candidate selections and alleged educements, Nice little sparring in there between Tice and Andrea ‘middle finger’ Jenkyns who is concerned Reform (as well as her huge gob) cause her defeat https://uk.news.yahoo.com/richard-tice-accuses-tories-dirty-104518823.html

Reform also dropped two candidates on Friday - I guess C4 did their due diligence for them then! https://www.channel4.com/news/two-reform-uk-candidates-ditched-after-accusations-of-racism-and-religious-hate

 

Speaking of reform candidates...

https://cdn.jwplayer.com/previews/hlRdgkYV

Sharp as a nail, this one 

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Cant see that happening myself.  Labour know it’s not in their interests to do it. Plus we had the shambles of the alternative vote referendum under the coalition. I’d be in favour of PR but the main parties aren’t and I’m not even sure if the overall population would go for it if it was put to a vote, polling on PR suggests at the very least that it would be close.

I don't think it will happen but it should do. Would eliminate the lack of engagement and sense that your vote doesn't matter almost immediately. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Love people calling for PR. They’ll be the same ones hailing FPTP when Reform get far more votes than the Lib Dem’s but end up with a tiny % of seats compared to them. 
 

As for English parliament, it would be dominated by the right. The country is far further right than the posters on here. I’ve said for years, the established political parties are lucky that Nigel is a unionist because he’d play havoc with the unfairness & anti English bias in our democracy. One day someone will come along & the English will rise up. Forget sweaty independence, they’d get that all right,  when we gain ours and fuck them off. 

Edited June 9 by Lord Duckhunter

[hypochondriac]

4 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I would certainly agree with the need for PR but would prefer to see more centrist “blob” parties than the likes of UKIP, BNP. Sadly, with a more democratic system it gives a voice to more loonies, xenophobes and flag shaggers as well as the more well balanced people. 

Proper democracy means giving a voice to those democratically elected even if you disagree with them. The main two parties love people like you because you want to silence people you disagree with. 

[Tamesaint]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Love people calling for PR. They’ll be the same ones hailing FPTP when Reform get far more votes than the Lib Dem’s but end up with a tiny % of seats compared to them. 
 

As for English parliament, it would be dominated by the right. The country is far further right than the posters on here. I’ve said for years, the established political parties are lucky that Nigel is a unionist because he’d play havoc with the unfairness & anti English bias in our democracy. One day someone will come along & the English will rise up. Forget sweaty independence, they’d get that all right,  when we gain ours and fuck them off. 

Lets see how this election finishes but the idea that people vote in a  "lefty" government because the Tories are not right wing enough defies logic. You and the other pub bores down your local maybe far further to the right than posters on here but the British public are not. blockquote widget

Edited June 9 by Tamesaint

[Lord Duckhunter]

26 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

 

Lets see how this election finishes but the idea that people vote in a  "lefty" government because the Tories are not right wing enough defies logic. You and the other pub bores down your local maybe far further to the right than posters on here but the British public are not. blockquote widget

I don’t discuss politics down the ale house, so I’ve no idea how my follow “bores” vote. There’s nothing right wing about the present government.taxes at a 70 year high, loose legal immigration, soft on crime  & an NHS is desperate need of reform. That’s not even mr ruining the most unconservative pony yet, banning cigarettes but only for certain people. The fact a Tory prime minister & Tory advisors didn’t understand how much D Day means to the country, says it all. Just like under Johnny Major the wets form the majority of the PP & just like him they’re going to receive the mother of all kickings. The hard of thinking equate this lot with the right, but all they do is talk the talk, they don’t walk the walk. They’re new labour clones

Edited June 9 by Lord Duckhunter

[Tamesaint]

37 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I don’t discuss politics down the ale house, so I’ve no idea how my follow “bores” vote. There’s nothing right wing about the present government.taxes at a 70 year high, loose legal immigration, soft on crime  & an NHS is desperate need of reform. That’s not even mr ruining the most unconservative pony yet, banning cigarettes but only for certain people. The fact a Tory prime minister & Tory advisors didn’t understand how much D Day means to the country, says it all. Just like under Johnny Major the wets form the majority of the PP & just like him they’re going to receive the mother of all kickings. The hard of thinking equate this lot with the right, but all they do is talk the talk, they don’t walk the walk. They’re new labour clones

I am not sure that you will ever find a government that fits your definition of right wing ....thank God. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

[revolution saint]

If the conservatives and reform were to merge they could call themselves CONFORM.

Edited June 9 by revolution saint

[Tamesaint]

11 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Oh great. Get her back and we can join the Single Market that she created. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

14 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

Oh great. Get her back and we can join the Single Market that she created. 

Pre Maastricht.

[AlexLaw76]

It is going to be odd watching FBPE nutters campaign to rejoin a ‘Far right’ EU.

[Tamesaint]

What's the expression? "You can tell a lot about a man from the company that he keeps." Perhaps this sums up" our Nige"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/09/nigel-farage-questions-convicted-fraudster-campaign-role-george-cottrell

Edited June 10 by Tamesaint

[Tamesaint]

15 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Not read them and have no interest in dong so. This election is a done deal, everything else is theatre, where the major parties are just trolling us all.

I will not be voting for either of the 2 parties, but that decision was made ages ago

Does this sum up Delldays position? 

[Weston Super Saint]

The manifestos (or blatant lies) are coming out this week. So far the snippets include :

More nursery places, more police officers, more prisons, more money for the NHS, More GP appointments, more social care. More, more, more, more, more!  Except taxes.  Apparently this will all be paid for without taxes going up.

[sadoldgit]

15 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Proper democracy means giving a voice to those democratically elected even if you disagree with them. The main two parties love people like you because you want to silence people you disagree with. 

If I wanted to silence them I would support their right to have a voice in Parliament would I? I suggest you make more of an effort to read what I say rather than what you think I am saying.

As for the “far right” term that I use to describe much of the Tory Party now, and Reform, does this article mean that Europe is being taken over by fascists? The term “far right” is used to describe an element of politics that is well away from the centre but not quite at the end of that spectrum.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv22p9dl415o.amp

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

If I wanted to silence them I would support their right to have a voice in Parliament would I? I suggest you make more of an effort to read what I say rather than what you think I am saying.

As for the “far right” term that I use to describe much of the Tory Party now, and Reform, does this article mean that Europe is being taken over by fascists? The term “far right” is used to describe an element of politics that is well away from the centre but not quite at the end of that spectrum.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv22p9dl415o.amp

Giving a voice to those you disagree with isn't a bad thing. Mentalists like you believe some absolutely insane things but you deserve representation and proportional representation giving you and people like you a voice is a positive even if I disagree. Can you say the same for those you disagree with? 

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

The manifestos (or blatant lies) are coming out this week. So far the snippets include :

More nursery places, more police officers, more prisons, more money for the NHS, More GP appointments, more social care. More, more, more, more, more!  Except taxes.  Apparently this will all be paid for without taxes going up.

The all believe that economic growth will give them the head room, plus taxes are going up because they are freezing the tax thresholds.

[moonraker]

2 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

The all believe that economic growth will give them the head room, plus taxes are going up because they are freezing the tax thresholds.

You make an important point about freezing tax thresholds, estimated to raise  £11 billion pounds, there are other ways that tax can be raised without raising the headline rates.  One would have to be either very naive, ideologically blind or just plain old stupid to believe that any government will not need to raise more income to fix the problems and halt the 14 years of decline.

Edited June 10 by moonraker

[sadoldgit]

13 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Giving a voice to those you disagree with isn't a bad thing. Mentalists like you believe some absolutely insane things but you deserve representation and proportional representation giving you and people like you a voice is a positive even if I disagree. Can you say the same for those you disagree with? 

You calling someone a mentalist is rich. Again, go back a read what I said.

I’m sure you would see the “positive” if someone started repeating the rhetoric of Hitler or Stalin 😂.

You see everything through a hypochondriac prism. You need to think about changing the lens.

I shall spell it out for you. I believe that people, even people I vehemently disagree with, have a right to express their opinions. Other people also have the right to disagree.

I start to have issues when people like you (to use your own language) pretend to be “liberal” but constantly jump on anyone with any centrist views and support those with further right views. At least have the balls to be honest about your true agenda as Duckhunter is. The bloke makes Attila the Hun look like a raging pinko but at least he has the front to say what he really means.

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

You calling someone a mentalist is rich. Again, go back a read what I said.

I’m sure you would see the “positive” if someone started repeating the rhetoric of Hitler or Stalin 😂.

You see everything through a hypochondriac prism. You need to think about changing the lens.

I shall spell it out for you. I believe that people, even people I vehemently disagree with, have a right to express their opinions. Other people also have the right to disagree.

I start to have issues when people like you (to use your own language) pretend to be “liberal” but constantly jump on anyone with any centrist views and support those with further right views. At least have the balls to be honest about your true agenda as Duckhunter is. The bloke makes Attila the Hun look like a raging pinko but at least he has the front to say what he really means.

The question I asked is very simple. Do you support giving people more of a voice with proportional representation, even if that means giving more of a voice to people you disagree with? Your answers so far seem to suggest you don't but you're welcome to clarify to say that's wrong. 

[sadoldgit]

20 minutes ago, moonraker said:

You make an important point about freezing tax thresholds, estimated to raise  £11 billion pounds, there are other ways that tax can be raised without raising the headline rates.  One would have to be either very naive, ideologically blind or just plain old stupid to believe that any government will need to raise more income to fix the problems and halt the 14 years of decline.

An equitable adjustment to the tax bands is long overdue and it is disappointing that Labour haven’t had the balls to do something about that yet in their pledges. Obvious why though. I think most people would agree that those with the broadest shoulders should carry the most weight. The trouble is more and more of the burden has fallen more and more on those who can least afford it whilst those at the top of the economic tree have seen their burden proportionality lessened. Hopefully now the idea of a trickle down economy is finally a busted flush.

[sadoldgit]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The question I asked is very simple. Do you support giving people more of a voice with proportional representation, even if that means giving more of a voice to people you disagree with? Your answers so far seem to suggest you don't but you're welcome to clarify to say that's wrong. 

For goodness sake. Just read what I have said. I have even spelt it out for you.

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

For goodness sake. Just read what I have said. I have even spelt it out for you.

He wants you to answer whether you want PR or not.

[sadoldgit]

21 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I would certainly agree with the need for PR but would prefer to see more centrist “blob” parties than the likes of UKIP, BNP. Sadly, with a more democratic system it gives a voice to more loonies, xenophobes and flag shaggers as well as the more well balanced people. 

This was what I posted yesterday which makes it abundantly clear that I would support PR even though it would give more of a voice to those who views I find abhorrent. I really can’t be any clearer than that. 

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

What's the expression? "You can tell a lot about a man from the company that he keeps." Perhaps this sums up" our Nige"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/09/nigel-farage-questions-convicted-fraudster-campaign-role-george-cottrell

not necessarily, Jesus hung out with hookers and dodgy tax inspectors.

[Fan The Flames]

Hopefully Hypo is satisfied now and we won't have the Hypo SOG ping pong all morning.

[sadoldgit]

Where do these views fall on the political spectrum?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/26/nigel-farage-under-fire-said-muslims-not-share-british-values

http://religiousreader.org/why-nigel-farages-anti-muslim-statements-are-nothing-new/

Edited June 10 by sadoldgit

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

This was what I posted yesterday which makes it abundantly clear that I would support PR even though it would give more of a voice to those who views I find abhorrent. I really can’t be any clearer than that. 

Good. We are in agreement then. Glad to hear you are in support. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

Hopefully Hypo is satisfied now and we won't have the Hypo SOG ping pong all morning.

When he answered the question there wasn't an issue. Wanging on about the evils of the far right made the answer ambiguous so glad he's clarified. 

[Fan The Flames]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

not necessarily, Jesus hung out with hookers and dodgy tax inspectors.

no, no, no, no, that was Bruce Wayne.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Where do these views fall on the political spectrum?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/26/nigel-farage-under-fire-said-muslims-not-share-british-values

"a growing number of British Muslims do not share British values." A few surveys and the evidence before our eyes suggests this to be absolutely true. 

Edited June 10 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

When he answered the question there wasn't an issue. Wanging on about the evils of the far right made the answer ambiguous so glad he's clarified. 

Only it didn’t need any clarification. And yet again you get upset when others criticise politics far removed from the centrist/moderate right.

[sadoldgit]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

"a growing number of British Muslims do not share British values." A few surveys and the evidence before our eyes suggests this to be absolutely true. 

Explain to us these “British values” please. Let’s explore your Islamophobic views shall we?

 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

Only it didn’t need any clarification. And yet again you get upset when others criticise politics far removed from the centrist/moderate right.

I was seeking clarification of your views which you have now provided even if it took a while. I'm glad you too want PR. 

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Explain to us these “British values” please. Let’s explore your Islamophobic views shall we?

 

Support of Sharia Law,  opposing freedom of expression (opposing Danish cartoon drawings of Muhammed for example), opposing homosexuality, viewing women as unequal to men, viewing white woman specifically as lesser than women of their own ethnicity. These are just some things that a not insignificant number of Muslims in Britain believe as evidenced by surveys exploring some of these questions. If you believe some or all of these things then in my opinion you do not share British values. 

Edited June 10 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I was seeking clarification of your views which you have now provided even if it took a while. I'm glad you too want PR. 

It didn’t need clarification. I made that clear in the first post.

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Support of Sharia Law,  opposing freedom of expression (opposing Danish cartoon drawings of Muhammed for example), opposing homosexuality, viewing women as unequal to men, viewing white woman specifically as lesser than women of their own ethnicity. These are just some things that a not insignificant number of Muslims in Britain believe as evidenced by surveys exploring some of these questions. If you believe some or all of these things then in my opinion you do not share British values. 

I don’t share your values. I also think you are a hypocrite. You call me out for my criticism of the Israeli government and military and their treatment of a minority group but at every opportunity you diss all Muslims. You call out what you perceive to be antisemitism whilst practising Islamophobia yourself. I guess you will be voting Reform then? It explains why you support the far right mouthpieces that I criticise.

[Turkish]

21 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

It didn’t need clarification. I made that clear in the first post.

I don’t share your values. I also think you are a hypocrite. You call me out for my criticism of the Israeli government and military and their treatment of a minority group but at every opportunity you diss all Muslims. You call out what you perceive to be antisemitism whilst practising Islamophobia yourself. I guess you will be voting Reform then? It explains why you support the far right mouthpieces that I criticise.

Can you back up this rather serious claim with some evidence please.

 

[hypochondriac]

42 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

It didn’t need clarification. I made that clear in the first post.

I don’t share your values. I also think you are a hypocrite. You call me out for my criticism of the Israeli government and military and their treatment of a minority group but at every opportunity you diss all Muslims. You call out what you perceive to be antisemitism whilst practising Islamophobia yourself. I guess you will be voting Reform then? It explains why you support the far right mouthpieces that I criticise.

Yet you took the time to clarify and it's good that you did so. 

So is it true then that a number of Muslims do not share British values? You asked me for the views and then ignored my response. 

I believe in equality for homosexuals and for them to be able to enjoy the same freedoms to love and express their love that everyone else has, I believe in equality for women I see them as entitled to the exact same rights as men. I believe in freedom of expression and the right to offend even if I disagree with the expression being expressed. You claim not to share those values? Curious. Please provide exact details of so called Islamaphobia. That's an extremely serious charge and should be backed up with proper evidence or the charge withdrawn. 

Edited June 10 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Can you back up this rather serious claim with some evidence please.

 

I'd also like to see proper evidence for this claim. It's an incredibly serious charge to level against someone and so it requires actual examples. 

[sadoldgit]

Where do these views fall on the political spectrum?

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/26/nigel-farage-under-fire-said-muslims-not-share-british-values

An interesting investigation on the use of the term “far right” when applied to the Reform Party.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/its-a-mistake-to-call-reform-uk-far-right/

Edited June 10 by sadoldgit
Added text

[sadoldgit]

24 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Yet you took the time to clarify and it's good that you did so. 

So is it true then that a number of Muslims do not share British values? You asked me for the views and then ignored my response. 

I believe in equality for homosexuals and for them to be able to enjoy the same freedoms to love and express their love that everyone else has, I believe in equality for women I see them as entitled to the exact same rights as men. I believe in freedom of expression and the right to offend even if I disagree with the expression being expressed. You claim not to share those values? Curious. Please provide exact details of so called Islamaphobia. That's an extremely serious charge and should be backed up with proper evidence or the charge withdrawn. 

I took time to clarify because you were either being deliberately obtuse or not very bright.

You are very happy to make “extremely serious charges” against others on a football forum but kick off when you get some of your own treatment. If it is really that serious, sue me.

Let’s get back to the crux of the matter. Please provide us with your definitive list of what constitutes “British values.”

Wasn’t one of Norman Tebbit’s tests to understand the rules of cricket?

Edited June 10 by sadoldgit
Added text

[hypochondriac]

Just now, sadoldgit said:

I took time to clarify because you were either being deliberately obtuse or not very bright.

You are very happy to make “extremely serious charges” against others on a football forum but kick off when you get some of your own treatment. If it is really that serious, sue me.

Let’s get back to the crux of the matter. Please provide us with your definitive list of what constitutes “British values.”

So the answer is you have no examples. What can be asserted with no evidence can be dismissed without evidence so we can ignore your claims of Islamophobia as they are entirely without foundation and you can provide no evidence for your claims. 

British values will be subjective things and differ for different people but as a minimum, mine would include respect for the rule of law and democracy, belief in the equality of everyone regardless of sex or other characteristics and tolerance for those of different sexual orientation such as homosexual. There's probably a lot more but that's a few off the top of my head. Apparently these are views you don't share though. 

[sadoldgit]

I was wrong about the Tebbit test. Here it is in greater detail.

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/28/lord-tebbit-migrants-grandfather-war

[sadoldgit]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So the answer is you have no examples. What can be asserted with no evidence can be dismissed without evidence so we can ignore your claims of Islamophobia as they are entirely without foundation and you can provide no evidence for your claims. 

British values will be subjective things and differ for different people but as a minimum, mine would include respect for the rule of law and democracy, belief in the equality of everyone regardless of sex or other characteristics and tolerance for those of different sexual orientation such as homosexual. There's probably a lot more but that's a few off the top of my head. Apparently these are views you don't share though. 

So you can’t really give us a proper list but you know that all Muslims don’t share any of those values. Ok. Sounds pretty Islamophobic to me.

Examples? The “thank God my wife isn’t a Muslim” quote.

Your claim that all UK Muslims were complicit in terrorists acts because they didn’t go to the police with information. The inference being that all Muslims have links to terrorists.

Your constance defence of people who criticism normal British born/based Muslims.

Back to British values. Would you say that British values involve welcoming asylum seekers to our shores, treating them well, assessing their claims and dealing fairly with them according to the outcome or either sinking the boats or shipping all of them off to an African country whether they have a legitimate claim or not?

Do you think that there are any gay Muslims? Do all Muslims believe that homosexuality should not be tolerated? Do you think that there are still non Muslims who believe that homosexuality should not be tolerated and have no tolerance of trans people.

Edited June 10 by sadoldgit