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Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
  On 07/05/2024 at 19:28, Saint_clark said:

Priorities all wrong. Would have been a club legend for the rest of his life had he stayed. Instead he'll be a player not really regarded as much by anyone. 

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I doubt he prioritises being slightly more popular with some random strangers on an internet message board over PL football and the chance of being in the squad for a major international tournament. I'm a Saints fan, I'd have done exactly the same thing and would expect a fairly decent reception if I ever came back.

  • Like 4
Dman

Dman

Posted
Posted
  On 07/05/2024 at 16:41, HarvSFC said:

Ran the game against Sheffield Wednesday on the opening day, so it is a shame he didn't give us a few more to see if we had sorted ourselves out and were going back on the up. Similar to how Lallana, Schneiderlin and Kelvin Davis stuck with us in League One. But, in the same breath we went from having a midfield of Wanyama, Schneiderlin and Steven Davis to JWP being our best midfielder. He wasn't as good as any of those three, aside from his set pieces, so another example of the decline of the starting eleven.

Similar to Clyne, Lallana, Lambert 🙁, Schneiderlin, Ings... And many others in that the grass isn't always greener away from Southampton apart from a bigger bank balance. Schneiderlin, Ings and Lambert pretty much finished their careers as a top level player with their moves.

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It took a late, last minute winner to beat a team who up until they appointed Rohl, looked the worst side in the division... 

I cannot put into words how much more important Downes is to us. 

I said at the time and I stand by it now, I rate Downes higher than I've ever rated JWP. 

  • Like 4
spyinthesky

spyinthesky

Posted
Posted
  On 07/05/2024 at 20:56, Lighthouse said:

I doubt he prioritises being slightly more popular with some random strangers on an internet message board over PL football and the chance of being in the squad for a major international tournament. I'm a Saints fan, I'd have done exactly the same thing and would expect a fairly decent reception if I ever came back.

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Quite right.
And of course the club wanted the transfer fee and also the saving in wages which would have been around the £5m mark.

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 08/05/2024 at 07:53, Dman said:

 

I cannot put into words how much more important Downes is to us. 

I said at the time and I stand by it now, I rate Downes higher than I've ever rated JWP. 

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Sorry this is mental.

JWP is and was for us a proven Premier League player.

Right now Flynn Downes is proven to not be good enough for the Premier League, which is why WHU bombed him out to us on loan.

 

Fuck knows why people are giving it the "grass isn't always greener" routine when he has played 49 times in the Prem and in Europe this season.

Edited by CB Fry
  • Like 10
Disco Stu

Disco Stu

Posted
Posted
  On 08/05/2024 at 19:56, Lord Duckhunter said:

Like that club legend Mick Channon? 

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He lifted a major trophy during his time here and gave us a year after we got relegated before eventually moving on. I don't begrudge JWP leaving one bit but he's not comparable with Mick Channon.

  • Like 5
Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted

The point is you don’t need to be a one club player to be a legend. The reason Prowse won’t be a legend has fuck all to do with going to West Ham, it’s more down to his average ability. 

  • Like 1
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Osvaldorama

Osvaldorama

Posted
Posted
  On 08/05/2024 at 18:57, CB Fry said:

Sorry this is mental.

JWP is and was for us a proven Premier League player.

Right now Flynn Downes is proven to not be good enough for the Premier League, which is why WHU bombed him out to us on loan.

 

Fuck knows why people are giving it the "grass isn't always greener" routine when he has played 49 times in the Prem and in Europe this season.

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l do agree with this, but I don’t think its that mental of an opinion. 

I actually do think Downes has the potential to be better than JWP if given a chance at PL. He is a “proper DM” that does his job well and understands his role deeply. Loves a tackle, fantastic touch. He really reminds me of Morgan Schneiderlin. 
 

Aside from his free kicks, JWP was a bit of a nothing player when he didn’t have Romeu next to him. I can barely think of any games that JWP directly dragged us through (without his free kicks).

Obviously Downes hasn’t proven himself at the highest level whatsoever, whereas JWP has many, many times. But in open play it feel like Downes has a bigger overall impact on the team than JWP. 

 

 

  • Like 1
egg

egg

Posted
Posted
  On 08/05/2024 at 21:27, Osvaldorama said:

l do agree with this, but I don’t think its that mental of an opinion. 

I actually do think Downes has the potential to be better than JWP if given a chance at PL. He is a “proper DM” that does his job well and understands his role deeply. Loves a tackle, fantastic touch. He really reminds me of Morgan Schneiderlin. 
 

Aside from his free kicks, JWP was a bit of a nothing player when he didn’t have Romeu next to him. I can barely think of any games that JWP directly dragged us through (without his free kicks).

Obviously Downes hasn’t proven himself at the highest level whatsoever, whereas JWP has many, many times. But in open play it feel like Downes has a bigger overall impact on the team than JWP. 

 

 

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Agreed 100%. JWP has proven himself at the top level. Downes hasn't, but he offers no less around the pitch in open play than JWP, and probably more.

The areas where JWP is streets ahead is the free kicks, and fitness. Downes seems a tad fragile for whatever reason. Had he been fit all season, I think the outcome may have been different. 

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 08/05/2024 at 21:27, Osvaldorama said:

l do agree with this, but I don’t think its that mental of an opinion. 

I actually do think Downes has the potential to be better than JWP if given a chance at PL. He is a “proper DM” that does his job well and understands his role deeply. Loves a tackle, fantastic touch. He really reminds me of Morgan Schneiderlin. 
 

Aside from his free kicks, JWP was a bit of a nothing player when he didn’t have Romeu next to him. I can barely think of any games that JWP directly dragged us through (without his free kicks).

Obviously Downes hasn’t proven himself at the highest level whatsoever, whereas JWP has many, many times. But in open play it feel like Downes has a bigger overall impact on the team than JWP. 

 

 

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Downes has had a chance in the PL, and as a result got sent out on loan to the league below. He's already 25, an age where JWP was a PL regular.

We're in the Championship where Adam Armstrong is banging goals in for fun once more. I think we need to remember our current level.

If nothing else it does seem that Downes struggles with the consistent intensity of matches and volume of matches.

Edited by CB Fry
Osvaldorama

Osvaldorama

Posted
Posted
  On 09/05/2024 at 05:12, CB Fry said:

Downes has had a chance in the PL, and as a result got sent out on loan to the league below. He's already 25, an age where JWP was a PL regular.

We're in the Championship where Adam Armstrong is banging goals in for fun once more. I think we need to remember our current level.

If nothing else it does seem that Downes struggles with the consistent intensity of matches and volume of matches.

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You’re overlooking 2 facts:

1) That David Moyes is a football terrorist who hates good footballers. 
2) The level that West Ham are aiming for (Europe) is way above the level we and a few other solid PL clubs are aiming. 
 

A sane PL manager would have kept Downes at the club imo. Most WHU fans felt the same. 
 

  • Haha 1
Saint_clark

Saint_clark

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 08/05/2024 at 21:36, Ball boy said:

I’m in the I’d prefer downes to sign rather than Jwp back club. 

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Crazy. Downes has 21 appearances in the Prem, JWP has nearly 400 with over 50 goals. There's no comparison.

Downes is essentially the level of Jack Cork.

Edited by Saint_clark
  • Like 3
Gloucester Saint

Gloucester Saint

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 08/05/2024 at 18:57, CB Fry said:

Sorry this is mental.

JWP is and was for us a proven Premier League player.

Right now Flynn Downes is proven to not be good enough for the Premier League, which is why WHU bombed him out to us on loan.

 

Fuck knows why people are giving it the "grass isn't always greener" routine when he has played 49 times in the Prem and in Europe this season.

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Agree with most of this, JWP has more than a decade of regular PL football, dozen England caps, set piece record and some good non-set piece goals. Downes is a very good player, touch harsh to say he’s proven not to be PL calibre as has seemingly done well when given an opportunity at West Ham, but he’s not quite cutting it for West Ham want to be e.g top 8 in the same Jack Cork wasn’t when Saints were at that level for 3-4 seasons but was very effective in the Champ and first couple of seasons back in the top flight.

Like Jack Cork was at Burnley, Downes improves them and Everton downwards this season. 

If, huge if, the club wins the play-offs, Downes if West Ham’s new boss decides he’s surplus, would need to be supplemented by at least one Victor/Diop type mountains who can screen the back 4/5 and get up and down the pitch. Selling Romeu, legs going or not, killed JWP last season, and out of a stupid summer 2022 was one of the moronic decisions of the lot. Smallbone will be loaned out again as would Aribo. 

Given there’s a new keeper needed whatever the division, probably at least one CB, CM and strikers, good luck to Wilcox’s replacement!

Edited by Gloucester Saint
Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
  On 09/05/2024 at 11:43, Gloucester Saint said:

Agree with most of this, JWP has more than a decade of regular PL football, dozen England caps, set piece record and some good non-set piece goals. Downes is a very good player, touch harsh to say he’s proven not to be PL calibre as has seemingly done well when given an opportunity at West Ham, but he’s not quite cutting it for West Ham want to be e.g top 8 in the same Jack Cork wasn’t when Saints were at that level for 3-4 seasons but was very effective in the Champ and first couple of seasons back in the top flight.

Like Jack Cork was at Burnley, Downes improves them and Everton downwards this season. 

If, huge if, the club wins the play-offs, Downes if West Ham’s new boss decides he’s surplus, would need to be supplemented by at least one Victor/Diop type mountains who can screen the back 4/5 and get up and down the pitch. Selling Romeu, legs going or not, killed JWP last season, and out of a stupid summer 2022 was one of the moronic decisions of the lot. Smallbone will be loaned out again as would Aribo. 

Given there’s a new keeper needed whatever the division, probably at least one CB, CM and strikers, good luck to Wilcox’s replacement!

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Romeu wanted to go back to Spain pal. I know as fans we think the club should force players to stay because they're under contract etc but he had a new kid and wanted to go home, the club did right by him, he was replaced by Lavia which was a good signing. Of all the sticks to beat the club with this isn't one of them. 

  • Like 10
S-Clarke

S-Clarke

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 09/05/2024 at 13:48, HKsaint said:

Let’s give them sulemana in exchange of JWP and Downe. 

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I'll tell you what, let's be extra generous and give them Mara as well.

Just package them up as a phenomenal young talent bundle delivered in a box with a ribbon on, and then we can take Downes and JWP - no receipts or returns though.

Edited by S-Clarke
  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
  On 09/05/2024 at 10:28, Osvaldorama said:

You’re overlooking 2 facts:


2) The level that West Ham are aiming for (Europe) is way above the level we and a few other solid PL clubs are aiming. 

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In the four seasons we finished 8th, 7th, 6th, 8th JWP played between 30 and 40 matches each of those seasons.

So he was performing at the level above "solid PL clubs" that you are pitching Downes at.

  • Like 1
Charlie Wayman

Charlie Wayman

Posted
Posted
  On 09/05/2024 at 17:48, CB Fry said:

In the four seasons we finished 8th, 7th, 6th, 8th JWP played between 30 and 40 matches each of those seasons.

So he was performing at the level above "solid PL clubs" that you are pitching Downes at.

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Mostly as a spectator IIRC. There were other players in that side who created our success.

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
  On 09/05/2024 at 18:03, Charlie Wayman said:

Mostly as a spectator IIRC. There were other players in that side who created our success.

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But Flynn Downes would have been an irreplaceable lychpin in that team would he?

Even his biggest fan on here admits he wouldn't get regular game time at a team pushing for Europe. JWP did.

  • Like 1
Mixedkebab

Mixedkebab

Posted
Posted
  On 09/05/2024 at 17:48, CB Fry said:

In the four seasons we finished 8th, 7th, 6th, 8th JWP played between 30 and 40 matches each of those seasons.

So he was performing at the level above "solid PL clubs" that you are pitching Downes at.

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He started less than half our PL games over those 4 seasons, he only became a true regular under Hasenhuttl 

chiknsmack

chiknsmack

Posted
Posted
  On 09/05/2024 at 12:56, Turkish said:

Romeu wanted to go back to Spain pal. I know as fans we think the club should force players to stay because they're under contract etc but he had a new kid and wanted to go home, the club did right by him, he was replaced by Lavia which was a good signing. Of all the sticks to beat the club with this isn't one of them. 

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The club set itself on fire to keep Romeu warm.

We had a couple of season of "If Romeu doesn't play we suck". We finally sign a teenage apprentice to back him up in that hopes that we won't have to suffer through a period of "We suck" for once, and what does the club do? Let Romeu leave.

The club did right by him, I can't begrudge him the move, and even in a footballing sense it wasn't the dumbest move the club has made in the past few years. But while some of those dumb moves (eg. not signing a striker) made a big difference in the club's fortunes, they were out of the club's control ("We tried to sign Gakpo/Ramos/whoever but it didn't work). Romeu staying or going was entriely in the club's control, and arguably made the biggest difference to the club's fortunes of any move. And they pulled the wrong rein.

I firmly believe that if Romeu sees out his contract we don't get relegated. The club had the option to not let him leave. It is a perfectly cromulent stick with which to beat them.

  • Like 1
CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
  On 09/05/2024 at 22:54, Mixedkebab said:

He started less than half our PL games over those 4 seasons, he only became a true regular under Hasenhuttl 

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Flynn Downes is 25 and has started seven Premier League matches in his entire life.

gio1saints

gio1saints

Posted
Posted

Comparing JWP to FD is just silly as many of the posts above show in detail. 

Yes, FD has been fundamental  to everything good for us , this season, in the Championship, but comparisons casting shade on JWP’s career are so way off the mark as to be laughable. 
 

As for description of JWP as “ average” - think the word that should be used is exceptional. He is a far from an average baller - expect to see him in top line management one day when his excellent playing career in professional football is over. 

david in sweden

david in sweden

Posted
Posted
  On 08/05/2024 at 21:27, Osvaldorama said:

l do agree with this, but I don’t think its that mental of an opinion. 

I actually do think Downes has the potential to be better than JWP if given a chance at PL. He is a “proper DM” that does his job well and understands his role deeply. Loves a tackle, fantastic touch. He really reminds me of Morgan Schneiderlin. 
 

Aside from his free kicks, JWP was a bit of a nothing player when he didn’t have Romeu next to him. I can barely think of any games that JWP directly dragged us through (without his free kicks).

Obviously Downes hasn’t proven himself at the highest level whatsoever, whereas JWP has many, many times. But in open play it feel like Downes has a bigger overall impact on the team than JWP. 

 

 

Expand  

The whole team was the worse after Romeu's departure, although I didn't begrudge him the move, and his career in Spain has blossomed at a late age.

He and JWP had a good partnership but many people tend to devalue Prowsey's contribution, and for those who only credit him with the free kicks 

don't remember that in many cases his free kick goals got us valuable points. If free kicks like his can be easily disregarded , why aren't there

half a dozen other players just behind his tally. ?   

JWP's contribution to the club is unparalleled and not just because of the length of service the long run of uninterrupted, injury-free games .

Many times I 've watched his sweeper-type role and almost faultless passing skills.  His main fault was that he wasn't demonstrative enough in the

media and  (unlike a few others in the past ) wasn't all mouth and trousers, and understood the faults better than the players who committed them. 

On the rare occasions that he went on the attack, he showed good vision, and in emergencies was as good a full back as any we've had . 

 

Downes has good skill but his injury problems of late have become a little disturbing, but I'd sign him in a blink if WHam willingly let him go.

 

  • Like 1
CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
  On 10/05/2024 at 01:26, chiknsmack said:

We finally sign a teenage apprentice to back him up

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Lavia was not signing for us to sit on the bench as "back up" to Romeu.

Honestly I don't understand what planet some of you live on.

  • Like 1
trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
  On 10/05/2024 at 05:30, CB Fry said:

Flynn Downes is 25 and has started seven Premier League matches in his entire life.

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That's seven more than Rickie Lambert at the same age (for example)...

 

(if that comment doesn't warrant one of CB's scathing pithy retorts then I'll be highly disappointed... ;) )

  • Haha 3
Osvaldorama

Osvaldorama

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 09/05/2024 at 18:07, CB Fry said:

But Flynn Downes would have been an irreplaceable lychpin in that team would he?

Even his biggest fan on here admits he wouldn't get regular game time at a team pushing for Europe. JWP did.

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And where is JWP now? 
 

On the bench again, as West Ham slowly fall away from Europe... The gap between Prowsey and Downes is nowhere near as big as you’re making out. 
 

(To be clear - I love prowsey. I’m not trying to slate him at all. But you’re overrating him massively here. Downes could easily prove to be better if given a run at the PL. )

I’d happily take both of them back if we go up. 

Edited by Osvaldorama
CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
  On 10/05/2024 at 10:59, Osvaldorama said:

And where is JWP now? 
 

On the bench again, as West Ham slowly fall away from Europe... The gap between Prowsey and Downes is nowhere near as big as you’re making out. 
 

(To be clear - I love prowsey. I’m not trying to slate him at all. But you’re overrating him massively here. Downes could easily prove to be better if given a run at the PL. )

I’d happily take both of them back if we go up. 

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I haven't rated him, over or under.

Just saying what has actually happened in reality (seasons and seasons of Premier League appearances vs seven entire Premier League starts and sent out on loan).

JWP on the bench for the exact same team the Downes got bombed out of completely is not quite the slamdunk you think it is.

franniesTache

franniesTache

Posted
Posted
  On 10/05/2024 at 12:30, Lord Duckhunter said:

Fuck me, you’re easily pleased.

 

And what the fuck is a “baller”, some sort of gigolo? 

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A baller is american slang for a basketball player, i had no idea Prowse played basketball (badly or well) but apparently he does.

Anyway he's a skate so fuck him. Served a purpose whilst he was here but he'll always be a skate so no love lost now he's gone

  • Like 1
Saint_clark

Saint_clark

Posted
Posted
  On 10/05/2024 at 07:53, CB Fry said:

Lavia was not signing for us to sit on the bench as "back up" to Romeu.

Honestly I don't understand what planet some of you live on.

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I agree but the club still made a mistake not signing two midfielders instead of one when we'd suffered the previous couple seasons whenever Romeu was out.

  • Like 3
Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

Posted
Posted
  On 07/05/2024 at 19:28, Saint_clark said:

 

Priorities all wrong. Would have been a club legend for the rest of his life had he stayed. Instead he'll be a player not really regarded as much by anyone. 

Expand  

Club legend until he had 3-4 bad games and he's called every name under the sun, questioned what dirt he must have on whoever our "clown manager" happened to be at the time and accused of stealing a living.

StrangelyBrown

StrangelyBrown

Posted
Posted
  On 10/05/2024 at 06:48, gio1saints said:

Comparing JWP to FD is just silly as many of the posts above show in detail. 

Yes, FD has been fundamental  to everything good for us , this season, in the Championship, but comparisons casting shade on JWP’s career are so way off the mark as to be laughable. 
 

As for description of JWP as “ average” - think the word that should be used is exceptional. He is a far from an average baller - expect to see him in top line management one day when his excellent playing career in professional football is over. 

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Just checking that you really mean "exceptional" as in the same level as Rodri or Rice or maybe Camavinga?

JWP is a better than average premier league player playing for a better than average premier league team. Nothing more, but still proven to be capable at a higher level than Downes.

Perhaps you should think before calling people silly or laughable?

LeG

LeG

Posted
Posted
  On 09/05/2024 at 12:56, Turkish said:

Romeu wanted to go back to Spain pal. I know as fans we think the club should force players to stay because they're under contract etc but he had a new kid and wanted to go home, the club did right by him, he was replaced by Lavia which was a good signing. Of all the sticks to beat the club with this isn't one of them. 

Expand  

Actually, this is incorrect. Romeu was happy to stay at Saints, even with the offer from Spain. JS also wanted to stay. Proper players who love Saints. Club was a mess.

  • Like 2
CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
  On 10/05/2024 at 07:59, trousers said:

That's seven more than Rickie Lambert at the same age (for example)...

 

(if that comment doesn't warrant one of CB's scathing pithy retorts then I'll be highly disappointed... ;) )

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J W

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
  On 10/05/2024 at 21:07, LeG said:

Actually, this is incorrect. Romeu was happy to stay at Saints, even with the offer from Spain. JS also wanted to stay. Proper players who love Saints. Club was a mess.

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Not what I heard, I was told he wanted to go back to Spain but would have stayed if the club refused to sell, as that’s the sort of guy he is. However we did right by him and let him go with our blessing and brought in Lavia. I loved Romeu one of my favourite players of recent times. Much better team with him In it.

  • Like 4
chiknsmack

chiknsmack

Posted
Posted
  On 10/05/2024 at 07:53, CB Fry said:

Lavia was not signing for us to sit on the bench as "back up" to Romeu.

Honestly I don't understand what planet some of you live on.

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A teenager was not signed for us to play every minute in the PL as our only option in the most important position on the park. Honestly I don't understand what planet some of you live on.

Lavia was signed to start the season as Romeu's backup/apprentice before taking over around mid-season as the main man once he had gotten up to speed with men's football. Perhaps Romeu could then be let leave in January, but more likely he sees out the last six months of his contract as Lavia's backup before leaving.

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
  On 11/05/2024 at 01:32, chiknsmack said:

A teenager was not signed for us to play every minute in the PL as our only option in the most important position on the park. Honestly I don't understand what planet some of you live on.

 

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You'll never belive the name of the planet in which Lavia played 30 odd times for us last season x x x

Signed to play, he played.

The Kraken

The Kraken

Posted
Posted
  On 11/05/2024 at 01:32, chiknsmack said:

A teenager was not signed for us to play every minute in the PL as our only option in the most important position on the park. Honestly I don't understand what planet some of you live on.

Lavia was signed to start the season as Romeu's backup/apprentice before taking over around mid-season as the main man once he had gotten up to speed with men's football. Perhaps Romeu could then be let leave in January, but more likely he sees out the last six months of his contract as Lavia's backup before leaving.

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Sorry but you’re talking complete bollocks. It was eminently clear from pre season and early season that Lavia was intended to be the main man. In that PL season he started all of our games in August; so right from the first game he was pitched into a starting first team role. Romeu started just one game in August and was on the bench in three more before his move to Girona was agreed.

  • Like 1

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