Current Squad v Last relegation Squad

[redkeith]

Last time Saints were relegated, they had accumulated a large squad of mediocre players as a result of trying to emulate the success of the £2 Million or less purchases of both Svensons and Anti Niemi.

This season we seem to have tried unsuccessfully to repeat the  success of Livramento. 

So how do the 2 squads compare ? 

Goalkeeper, 

2004 -Niemi, Smith ,Blainey, Keller 

2022 - Bazuna, McCarthy, Cabillero

Niemi is, for me, the best ever Saint's keeper, so 2004 wins on this count, although this time we have far better cover.

Right Back   

2004, Dodd, Telfer, Cranie 

2022 - KWP, Bree, AMN

Dodd and Telfer had  no legs by this stage, while Cranie showed great promise at that age, but proved to be a defender who matured early but didn't develop much further, so KWP wins this one.

Left Back

2004  Le Saux, Bernard, Van Damme

2022, Perraud, Larios 

While Le Saux was a classy player, by this time his legs had completely gone, Bernard invented the term "Phoning in a performance" and Van Damme was better in the beer commercial.   While Perraud is not the greatest, and when I saw Larios warming up at Bournemouth I thought he was the mascot 2022 wins this one.

Centre Back

2004 Lundekvam, Higginbottom, Jackobsen,  Davenport

2022 ABK, Salisu, DCC, Bednarek, Lyanco,

The defensive strategy in 2004 must have been just hoping that Killer would recover from his injury. Claus is the only decent option here, but as we now know, he needed a strong partner.  A fit pair of ABK and Salisu looked very promising, but hasn't happened often enough. The rest, all of whom have a ricket in them, are at least better than   Jackobsen or  Davenport.  2022 wins

Midfield

2004 Oakley, Delap, Prutton, Folly, Redknapp, Quashie

2022 Lavia, JWP, Diallo, AMN, 

Oakley was a very good player, but injuries took their toll this season, Prutt's is a nice guy, but very average at PL level, Redknapp was good for 50 minutes and Quashie was a relegation specialist, he only failed in this at the Skates. Folly looked like a decent holding midfielder until Sturrock asked him to play box to box at Villa. Delap was a fantasy football dream player at Derby. With us he looked like the definition of a utility player, average in a number of different positions. 

JWP, although below par this year is still better than all those above and Lavia is the best young midfield talent we have had since Steve Williams. No real depth  here and we really should have told Romeu that he would have to wait until January for his move due to the Lavia injury.  

2022 wins again.

Wide/Creative midfield

2004 - Mc Cann, A Svenson, Fernades, Griffiths

2022 - S Armstrong, Aribo, Orsic, Edozie, Djenepo, Sulemana, Walcott, Elyonousi, Alcarez   

Till I looked at the squad for 2004 I couldn't believe how week we were in this department. Anders  was managed out by 'arry, maybe because he was nit with Willy McKay, or maybe because, as he went on to show for Sweden, he was a much better CM than the 2005 version of Jammie. Fabrice was never the same after being dropped for the Cup Final and Mc Cann was just awful.  

This year Stu has completely lost it, Edozie has still not made or scored a goal, Djenepo is still very random, likewise Sulemana. Aribo looked promising, but is soooo lazy that MLT looks like Nick Holmes by comparison. Theo has been ok for a month, Orisc is a mystery, how can someone bee so good for his country and in Europe, but not trouble Grimsby. Ely is ok at following instructions, but not at scoring or creating. Added to this criticism, most of these players prefer to cut in from the left. It is madness to have that number of squad players for the same spot. 

Alcarez looks like a player we should build the team around, great attacking instincts and for this reason 2022 wins, but in reality they are the worst 2 sets of creative players in Saints top flight history.   

Forwards 

2004 - Phillips, Crouch, Ormeroyd, Camara, Best, Blackstock

2023 - A Armstrong, Adams, Mara,  Onachu

Hands down win for 2004 in this category, the only comparison I would make is that  Che gets more goals than Brett, playing the same role.  

 

Managers 

2004 - Sturrock, like NJ, out of his depth, Wigley, cheap, beat the Skates, Redknapp utter uninterested 

money grabing c@@@. 

2022 - Ralph - lost the players in March 2022, NJ see Sturrock, Selles too defensive and often brings a knife to a gunfight. 

No winner in this category. 

The link seems to be  an "innovative"  recruitment strategy  with glaring weaknesses being ignored. All very avoidable.

 

 

 

[Andrew Watson]

The 2004/05 team got relegated, the 2022/23 will be relegated  by this saturday or the following friday for sure. So pretty immaterial, but would take the original squad out of the two.

[ozzmeister]

Good thread this! 

Shows how poor that 2004 side were, but must also show how much the quality of the league has also gone up as that side still very nearly stayed up. 

Hopefully what we have, even if we loose a few key players gives us a very strong side for the Championship. We just need someone to find their scoring boots!

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Very different experiences - 2005 was a team that had just sort of broken down with key players like Svensson and Niemi getting injured or losing form.

Much preferred that 2005 team though, at least they had a bit about them and scored quite a few goals.

Niemi

KWP ABK Claus Perraud

Prutton Lavia JWP

Phillips Crouch Camara

For me (Prutton was excellent before his moment)

 

[beatlesaint]

If we had Niemi in goal and Phillips, Crouch, Ormerod and Camara up front we wouldnt be in the shite this season.

The defence and midified this season is, in my opinion, much better............but I am haunted and possibly swayed by the memory of Olivier Bernard and especially his "performance" on a wet, miserable day in Blackburn that season.

[Mr Nimbus]

Good thread. At least we had that Norwich game in 05. We drew so many games that season which ultimately cost us. 

Funny really because if we had drew say 4 games in which we have lost 1-0 this season, we would be right in the thick of it.

We scored 45 goals that season and had a better GD than WBA. Despite how bad we were, one win and we would have stayed up.

[Eric The Red]

2 hours ago, Andrew Watson said:

The 2004/05 team got relegated, the 2022/23 will be relegated  by this saturday or the following friday for sure. So pretty immaterial, but would take the original squad out of the two.

Virtually impossible for us to be relegated before May! If you mean 'as good as relegated ' then I think Bournemouth is most likely to be the occasion we visit the 'last chance saloon'

[Baird of the land]

Interesting comparison. If we just had 1 striker as good as 2004 now.

I remember being bemused at our CB and CM transfer strategy in 2004. I was equally confused we refused to contemplate playing Baird who managed to go from playing on an fa cup final to being ignored until Burley finally cottoned on he was a decent player years later.

 

[S-Clarke]

The frustrating thing for me is that we tried to cheap out on the most important position, not just this summer but the summer before that as well. ST.

When we sold Ings we needed to spend £30m on a new one, who had top flight experience (not necessarily PL, but a top league). Always hard to find another Ings, but when your one and only target is Adam Armstrong then you're doing it wrong. That's what's killed us, for sure we have flaws in other area's such as lack of depth in CM and poor wide options....but the lack of a proper striker just highlights those more than ever. We'd be getting by if we still had Ings, but never mind. Club made their bed.

[Chez]

A past it Le Saux or never had it Perraud? What a choice.

Despite being shit, the 2005 side could have survived. They fucked it up letting good leads slip. This 2013 side haven't really competed.

oh to have Henri back in a Saints shirt. Fucking electric.

[Saint86]

First of all, i don't want to go all MLG on you, but we were relegated in 2005 not 2004. In 2004 we finished 12th 😋.

Secondly, I would actually argue that bazunu now is better than Niemi was by the end of the 04/05 season. Niemi was a total wreck confidence wise by the end of 04/05... That Krap Nottarf game in particular was horrendous. 2003/04 niemi i'd agree, far better.

There also isn't much difference in overall striking ability - both are poor for the league imo. Che is a decent hold up man but can't finish. A past it Philips or Camara alongside him would have made a difference though. 

If anything, the whole thing totally highlights how we've been chronically mismanaged by Rasmus this season. He had a manager that would have had a very good crack at a top 10 finish with even a semblance of the right additions, didn't sign said additions, then sacked the manager, then hired the world's fittest ever manager (far far worse than Ralph), then failed again to sign a striker or cdm cover, then sacked world's fittest manager (albeit that was the right call 😄), then hired a total newbie as manager (also worse than Ralph)

And so here we sit having spent £150M on transfers, lord knows what on agents fees, signing on fees, and paying off managers... and we're worse than we started the season with still no striker in sight. That and we've helped our soon to be parent club (Luton) in the Sports Republic group up to 3rd...

I'll say one thing, that's a pretty impressive overall feet by SR 🤣

Edited 13 April, 2023 by Saint86

[redkeith]

You are being a bit MlG, I went for the year the season started, 2004 to 2005 and 2022 to 2023, just couldn't be arsed to type it every time. 

I also missed Kenton and Neilson from my list, no loss there!

Can't  remember Niemi being that bad, wasn't at Fratton, but I think the mismanagement from the top down has been just as bad in both seasons. 

[Chez]

2 hours ago, redkeith said:

Can't  remember Niemi being that bad, wasn't at Fratton, but I think the mismanagement from the top down has been just as bad in both seasons. 

he had an absolute mare. I couldn't believe my eyes. I don't recall him being terrible over the course of the entire season though, just not great.

[Mr Nimbus]

14 hours ago, Saint86 said:

First of all, i don't want to go all MLG on you, but we were relegated in 2005 not 2004. In 2004 we finished 12th.

Secondly, I would actually argue that bazunu now is better than Niemi was by the end of the 04/05 season. Niemi was a total wreck confidence wise by the end of 04/05... That Krap Nottarf game in particular was horrendous. 2003/04 niemi i'd agree, far better.

There also isn't much difference in overall striking ability - both are poor for the league imo. Che is a decent hold up man but can't finish. A past it Philips or Camara alongside him would have made a difference though. 

If anything, the whole thing totally highlights how we've been chronically mismanaged by Rasmus this season. He had a manager that would have had a very good crack at a top 10 finish with even a semblance of the right additions, didn't sign said additions, then sacked the manager, then hired the world's fittest ever manager (far far worse than Ralph), then failed again to sign a striker or cdm cover, then sacked world's fittest manager (albeit that was the right call 😄), then hired a total newbie as manager (also worse than Ralph)

And so here we sit having spent £150M on transfers, lord knows what on agents fees, signing on fees, and paying off managers... and we're worse than we started the season with still no striker in sight. That and we've helped our soon to be parent club (Luton) in the Sports Republic group up to 3rd...

I'll say one thing, that's a pretty impressive overall feet by SR 🤣

Can't agree with that part. Crouch was one of the best forwards in the league that season and Camara was really exciting.

[Saint86]

8 minutes ago, Mr Nimbus said:

Can't agree with that part. Crouch was one of the best forwards in the league that season and Camara was really exciting.

TBF i might be being harsh, just rechecked the goal stats and Philips (10) and Crouch (12) did pretty well considering we finished 20th! I guess the overall negativity of that season has impacted my view somewhat.

[Pamplemousse]

I look forward to the same comparison next season. Who's going to be the next Ricardo Fuller, Kamil Kosowski or Jermaine Wright?

[Lord Duckhunter]

The 2005 side should never have gone down, bunch of spineless cunts. WBA we’re an awful side with a terrible manager, but managed to stay up. We had a decent keeper in nets, terrific forwards & some experience all around the side. They should have got over the line. 

[Chez]

34 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

I look forward to the same comparison next season. Who's going to be the next Ricardo Fuller, Kamil Kosowski or Jermaine Wright?

Fuller was alright IMO. The twatish fans giving him shit every game because he only cost £90k and was a skate got on my nerves.

[Chez]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The 2005 side should never have gone down, bunch of spineless cunts. WBA we’re an awful side with a terrible manager, but managed to stay up. We had a decent keeper in nets, terrific forwards & some experience all around the side. They should have got over the line. 

they gave us hope right until the end as we won a few games and scored some goals. I never gave up on them, unlike with this current side. I have absolutely no faith in them finding a grove/way of scoring and winning games. None at all. Relegation in 2005 was much more of a `surprise'. It didn't feel like we were heading that way in the years proceeding, whilst relegation this time around has been on the cards for quite a few years.

 

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The 2005 side should never have gone down, bunch of spineless cunts. WBA we’re an awful side with a terrible manager, but managed to stay up. We had a decent keeper in nets, terrific forwards & some experience all around the side. They should have got over the line. 

Was that the season when Prutton missed a sitter away to West Brom?

[Lighthouse]

4 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The 2005 side should never have gone down, bunch of spineless cunts. WBA we’re an awful side with a terrible manager, but managed to stay up. We had a decent keeper in nets, terrific forwards & some experience all around the side. They should have got over the line. 

All of which is no use if your defence is hopeless and you need said forwards to score two or three per game just to get a point. Claus, GLS and Dodd were past their best, the rest were mediocre in their prime and every game was just a tombola of defenders. Between Dodd, Kenton, Delap, Telfer, Cranie, Baird and Nilsson we had seven potential RBs on the books and not one of them put in a decent performance.

[Ted Bates Statue]

29 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

All of which is no use if your defence is hopeless and you need said forwards to score two or three per game just to get a point. Claus, GLS and Dodd were past their best, the rest were mediocre in their prime and every game was just a tombola of defenders. Between Dodd, Kenton, Delap, Telfer, Cranie, Baird and Nilsson we had seven potential RBs on the books and not one of them put in a decent performance.

Dodd got frozen out by Redknapp if I recall correctly and went on loan to Plymouth Argyle.

Baird was in the midst of a bizarre wilderness spell between the FA Cup Final and his emergence as one of our best players in the Championship, and barely played a minute in 04/05.

That aside, tombola sums it up perfectly. Defensively we were disastrous, and a prime reason why we could only manage six wins all season. When you can only manage six wins it's hard to justify that we were good enough to stay up, notwithstanding the goalscoring talent we had up front.

[Chez]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Was that the season when Prutton missed a sitter away to West Brom?

yes. There were 3000 Saints fans in unison putting heads in hands.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

All of which is no use if your defence is hopeless and you need said forwards to score two or three per game just to get a point. Claus, GLS and Dodd were past their best, the rest were mediocre in their prime and every game was just a tombola of defenders. Between Dodd, Kenton, Delap, Telfer, Cranie, Baird and Nilsson we had seven potential RBs on the books and not one of them put in a decent performance.

West Brom were fucking pony, their defence was hopeless too and their forward line a lot poorer. They also won the same number of games as us, having a worse goal difference. They were relegated  the following season with 30 points. To finish below them with our squad was scandalous. 

[Lighthouse]

7 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

West Brom were fucking pony, their defence was hopeless too and their forward line a lot poorer. They also won the same number of games as us, having a worse goal difference. They were relegated  the following season with 30 points. To finish below them with our squad was scandalous. 

Our defence was worse, 5 goals worse over the course of the season. We conceded 2 or more goals on 24 occasions and 3 or more on 8 occasions. There was nothing scandalous about it, our defence was dreadful and we deserved to go down.

[The Cat]

I remember watching us get a late equaliser at Palace, going back to a pub around London Bridge and watching Man Utd playing absolutely shite and meekly lose to West Brom in the late kick off.

It was obvious Pompey would chuck that last game against them.

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

I think the original post is spot on. In most positions we are better now with the exception of striker and possibly keeper.

I agree too that we were unfortunate in some ways to go down in 2005.

This season we are not, in my opinion, one of the three worst sides. As some have said, some key disastrous results and the managerial changes (especially the appointment of Jones) are among the factors that have left us staring down the barrel of the gun of relegation. Of course, not purchasing a decent striker has been a huge factor.

One interesting comparison between the two is that in 2005 most people thought we could/would escape until we didn't. This year it seems that most believe we cannot stay up and logically that is the most expected outcome. Nevertheless, the closeness of the competition this year may still give us some hope if we can beat Palace this weekend - especially with the form of Leicester and Forest and Everton's next few fixtures. Not that I am for a moment suggesting we will stay up!!

[skintsaint]

1 hour ago, The Cat said:

It was obvious Pompey would chuck that last game against them.

Didn't matter in the end, even if Pompey had won we were down.

[bpsaint]

22 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Didn't matter in the end, even if Pompey had won we were down.

Yep, try telling those stupid cunts that though. They’ve already written it into their Portsmyth folklore that they sent us down that day.

[maysie]

5 hours ago, Chez said:

yes. There were 3000 Saints fans in unison putting heads in hands.

I remember still living at home and watching it on an awful stream on a very old PC with awful dial up (it might not have been dial up but it seemed it). It froze for 5 mins just as it came to Prutton. My first experience of streaming was not good.

[maysie]

2 minutes ago, maysie said:

I remember still living at home and watching it on an awful stream on a very old PC with awful dial up (it might not have been dial up but it seemed it). It froze for 5 mins just as it came to Prutton. My first experience of streaming was not good.

When I say still living at home I meant at my parents and not that I’m now homeless!

[Dark Munster]

Agree with everything from the OP, except about Luggy. He was NOT out of his depth, 1.23 points per game average, and was only around for the first 2 matches of that disastrous season (W 1, L 1) before the players forced him out. To compare him to Nathan F**king Jones is laughable.

[CB Fry]

28 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

Agree with everything from the OP, except about Luggy. He was NOT out of his depth, 1.23 points per game average, and was only around for the first 2 matches of that disastrous season (W 1, L 1) before the players forced him out. To compare him to Nathan F**king Jones is laughable.

...yep he won one of those two games.

I think probably something wasn't quite right, and he has never even succeeded in the second tier subsequently. He wasn’t an elite level manager. But great in the bottom 2 divisions no question.

Clear he wasn't going to be a long term solution for us.

But his record in his short time with us was fine and miles above Nathan Jones, as you say. 

He can hardly be blamed for the relegation that season.

[redkeith]

On 12/04/2023 at 19:05, Saint86 said:

First of all, i don't want to go all MLG on you, but we were relegated in 2005 not 2004. In 2004 we finished 12th.

Secondly, I would actually argue that bazunu now is better than Niemi was by the end of the 04/05 season. Niemi was a total wreck confidence wise by the end of 04/05... That Krap Nottarf game in particular was horrendous. 2003/04 niemi i'd agree, far better.

There also isn't much difference in overall striking ability - both are poor for the league imo. Che is a decent hold up man but can't finish. A past it Philips or Camara alongside him would have made a difference though. 

If anything, the whole thing totally highlights how we've been chronically mismanaged by Rasmus this season. He had a manager that would have had a very good crack at a top 10 finish with even a semblance of the right additions, didn't sign said additions, then sacked the manager, then hired the world's fittest ever manager (far far worse than Ralph), then failed again to sign a striker or cdm cover, then sacked world's fittest manager (albeit that was the right call 😄), then hired a total newbie as manager (also worse than Ralph)

And so here we sit having spent £150M on transfers, lord knows what on agents fees, signing on fees, and paying off managers... and we're worse than we started the season with still no striker in sight. That and we've helped our soon to be parent club (Luton) in the Sports Republic group up to 3rd...

I'll say one thing, that's a pretty impressive overall feet by SR 🤣

 

7 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Agree with everything from the OP, except about Luggy. He was NOT out of his depth, 1.23 points per game average, and was only around for the first 2 matches of that disastrous season (W 1, L 1) before the players forced him out. To compare him to Nathan F**king Jones is laughable.

Yes it was a bit of a lazy comparison between Luggy and Jones, long post.

I liked Sturrock when he first arrived, we got some good results and played some good football. However, whatever he did in preseason  completely baffled the squad. We were utterly hopeless up at Villa, and mates all said that day that we were getting relegated. He did win his last game thanks to a late penalty, but we were battered by Blackburn. It is a long time ago but felt like a game where we had 3 shots that all went in.

He needed to go.

With Jones, I was hopeful after the 2nd half at Anfield, but it turns out that it was because Liverpool are a bit shit lately.

We showed nothing like that endeavour in any of his matches after the World Cup.  He was hopeless, out of his depth in every way aside from having the right coaching badges. Worst Saints manager ever IMO.