Systems vs aggression vs creativity vs workrate - why choose?

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

So, is it too early or too late to analyse what has gone wrong?

I know there are many, many answers to the question, not least the failure to sign a decent striker, but are there more fundamental issues with the way we play too? Why is it that so few players seem capable of scoring, let alone the strikers?

I think the problem is that Ralph became convinced that the priority was playing a system and therefore the way to play was to find the players that would implement that system to the letter. When that worked it was good but more and more teams found us out. Selles has been schooled in that approach and so players that don't fit the system won't get selected and the system is largely built around players who will work hard and press for long periods of time. That means that Edozie doesn't get selected as he doesn't fit that system whereas Diallo and Elyounoussi do get selected because they follow the system in training. But, while I am all for discipline and patterns of passing (which Jones had absolutely no clue about) there has also got to be space for creativity and variety too. Systems work in keeping goals conceded down and in maintaining possession, getting goals needs creativity and trying new things.

What I am trying to say is this: Yes, we need to have a system of play and we need players to have a high work-rate, but those things alone are not enough just as Jones approach of having absolutely no system and insisting we just had to be aggressive was also rubbish!

The fact is we need to have systems; we need to have a good work-rate. Hassenhuttl and Selles are both right in wanting those - but in themselves they are NOT ENOUGH!

On the other hand we need more aggression and Jones was right about that even if the side demonstrated a total lack of any aggression under him!

But what about creativity? What about variety? What about game management? What about passing? What about shooting? What about creating chances? What about through balls? What about working the ref? What about oneupmanship? (E.g. Newcastle and other clubs don't put away fans behind the goal or next to the pitch; other clubs provide poor changing facilities; others keep the opponents waiting on the pitch at half time.. and so on...!)

We need all of these things, but we fail to see so many of them and so we become easy to predict and easy to beat.

I was a fan of Ralph, but maybe in these things we can find clues about what his approach lacked and what we also lack at present with Selles. Maybe that is why managers who play anti-football like Big Sam and Pulis and a number of others seem to have so much success.

[Whitey Grandad]

When the system becomes the be all and end all of the way we play then we are in trouble. Anti-football is never going to be the answer for a club of our size or heritage. What some might call ‘success’ of the bludgeoning hoof-it style of football is never going to have the fans smiling upon their way out of the ground.

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

Clearly my opening post was too long and complicated - especially after another frustrating defeat with a complete lack of penetration in freont of goal!!

Here's a summary: Systems of play have their place but they are not enough and they lead to selecting the players who fit the system rather than players who will create goals but who don't always fit well within rigid systems. I think this is why so many creative players have failed at Saints and why we are so starved of creativity. Edozie is just the latest creative, attacking player to have been dropped by a Saints manager and I suspect it is because he is not a system player but a player who brings variety and creativity.... but when our approach is governed almost solely by a rigid system these sorts of players are not allowed the freedom to flourish and deliver.

[Mystic Force]

The thing with a systems approach is that a counter approach can always be found. So is cannot Trump everything else.

Creativity within a system can come from a few options. 1 give someone a free role, they are not given a fixed position or only sometimes adopt that position MLT did this for us before, it can be strikers who sometimes drop deep or appear at different points, skilled dribblers from midfield who can beat a defence on skill or creative passers who bring the ball up to create the killer pass or pop up in hard to expect locations to do the same. I think that we expect JWP to do that but is rarely given that freedom, especially without the covering of Romeu to back him up. 

Another creative option is to vary your system throughout a game, not in some unorganized reactive scheme but in a fluid, and dynamic way so that the opposition can't just set up to stop your one weird trick. But you have players interchanging positions or focusing your attack differently. Right now we chop and change looking for something to work, or only change when the personnel change telegraphing what we are going to do. Those rotating positions were very much in evidence when we had players like Tadic, Lambert and Steve Davis who could all comfortably play through the middle or out wide, dragging the opposition out of position and creating opportunities the key was they were capable players with the skills to do multiple roles. If Moi say came in from a wide position to the center, now all the defenders will think is that their job got easier, not be worried about who is picking up whom.

 

I think the key to how a system works is that it provides a base from which the other attributes come from. The system is key to defending, but the ponderous slow staged attack we have favoured over the last few years just let the opposition regroup, and channel us in to less dangerous locations. Even when we do a play switch it's so obviously going to happen they reset quickly.

Edited 16 March, 2023 by Mystic Force

[stevegrant]

4 hours ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said:

Edozie is just the latest creative, attacking player to have been dropped by a Saints manager and I suspect it is because he is not a system player but a player who brings variety and creativity.... but when our approach is governed almost solely by a rigid system these sorts of players are not allowed the freedom to flourish and deliver.

So creative that he has *checks notes* zero assists. An "expected assists" figure of 0.3 over the entire season. He ranks below Mohammed Salisu and Armel Bella-Kotchap on this metric.

[Wade Garrett]

Fact is, our system is shit, boring, slow, ineffective and so easy to play against.

Players seem scared on the ball.

 

[SotonianWill]

23 minutes ago, stevegrant said:

So creative that he has *checks notes* zero assists. An "expected assists" figure of 0.3 over the entire season. He ranks below Mohammed Salisu and Armel Bella-Kotchap on this metric.

I honestly don’t know where the edozie hype has come from, no different to having djenepo on the pitch. He’s literally a younger nathan redmond. 

Edited 16 March, 2023 by SotonianWill

[stevegrant]

8 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Fact is, our system is shit, boring, slow, ineffective and so easy to play against.

Players seem scared on the ball.

But, as ever, it's not actually as simple as that.

We've shown fairly decent aptitude against teams whose main intent is to attack us - Chelsea, Man United, Leicester to an extent - but struggled against teams who set up more conservatively. Especially at Old Trafford at the weekend, and in the first halves against Chelsea and Leicester, there wasn't a whole lot of boring or slow anything. We played at a good tempo and created a fair number of chances against both sides. We won at Chelsea and could easily have done so at Man United.

The issue is how we break down teams who sit very deep and deny any space in the channels. Our crossing isn't good enough to exploit wide areas - Perraud got into loads of good positions last night but so many of his crosses ended up going straight into David Raya's arms, which was infuriating as he's generally one of our better players in that regard. When teams pack the defensive block, there aren't many sides who are good at picking holes through the middle (City probably the only ones, really, and even then we've found success against them in the past by simply overcrowding them within the width of the penalty area) so you then get forced into wide areas, which is where you need a) the delivery to be of a high standard, and b) enough targets in the penalty area capable of getting on the end of those deliveries. Under Ralph in the first half of the season, we probably had the deliveries covered, but didn't get enough players into the box to convert, and when we did get chances we missed them (that Newcastle game is still infuriating after basically missing two open goals); now we've probably just about got enough players in there, especially last night, but the quality of the delivery and - in fairness to the wide players - movement wasn't up to it.

Brentford weren't any great shakes last night, IMO, but they had studied our weaknesses from wide set pieces where everyone gets drawn to the near post leaving ourselves short-staffed at the back post, and having given us a couple of warnings we still didn't take the hint and they scored from the third such opportunity.

[stevegrant]

8 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

I honestly don’t know where the edozie hype has come from, no different to having djenepo on the pitch. He’s literally a younger nathan redmond. 

Nathan Redmond had bundles more end product than any of the wide players we currently have at our disposal.

[Forester]

In terms of creativity and attacking verve, compare current talent with the last decade in the Premier League, from the first season up to now.  This has seen, for example:

Adkins/Poch era: Jay Rod (pre injury), Lallana, Lambert, Davis 

Koeman: Tadic, Pelle, Mane, Davis

Puel/Pellegrino/Hughes era: Redmond, Tadic, Gabbiadini, Davis

Ralph early years: Ings, Adams, Redmond, a fit Stuart Armstrong

 

The current forward line is genuinely a drop in quality, irrespective of how good the coaching is.  This is why, if we go down, Sport Republic are accountable for allowing the season to start so devoid of quality in front line 

[Turkish]

4 hours ago, SotonianWill said:

I honestly don’t know where the edozie hype has come from, no different to having djenepo on the pitch. He’s literally a younger nathan redmond. 

It’s because 

1/ he came from Man city

2/ someone there said he was better than Sancho at the same age

 

Man City must be pissing themselves with the amount of money we’ve spent with them. We’re like that twat of a bloke who buys everything a brand makes regardless of how shit it is just because the label is popular 

Edited 16 March, 2023 by Turkish

[leeham_69]

I've felt since Ralph days that we are so clear about what to do when we are out of possession but don't seem to have a clear plan for what to do in possession. I agree that the focus on the system has sucked the players' capacity for individual decision making, initiative, flair and frankly taking responsibility.

I specifically find that our players movement off the ball when our team is in possession is terrible. We are a long way behind every other team in terms of simply moving into space, presenting for the ball, our forwards making runs to either receive the ball OR draw defenders away from the ball. How often do we see our CBs and our CMs standing there with the ball at their feet and their hands raised asking where the pass is? The same is true for throw-ins - everyone is stationary.

I think the press is a permanent part of modern football when out of possession but we really need to work on dynamism, off-ball movement and, god forbid, a mentality to actually entertain the fans. They are too drilled in too small an aspect of playing and winning.