hypochondriac Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 10 minutes ago, SambaMaverick said: The fees involved and the sheer volume of signings is off, imo I still have no idea what that means. We haven't paid over the odds for promising players. The success of Lavia proves it can work, why would we not go with what we know? I care about getting good players in, if that means we sign every single one of our players from city then why does that make something dodgy? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Matty 76 Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 Just now, SambaMaverick said: The four we signed last season cost £35m all in. We could get that back for Lavia - but he's gonna go on to be world class. How many more of those have they got in their ranks? A few I’d bet! My view is that in the position we are in as a selling club, I want to watch some of the best talents in the world play for Southampton for however many years we can have them. A few years of Mane/van Dijk, a year of Lavia. These aren’t easy things to come by and I think by attacking the best two academies in the world (City & Chelsea) who have the worst pathways is a wonderful mentality, IF combined with the necessary experience too. We only just fell short on Colwill last year as well, and he is going to be the best CB in the world. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 (edited) ... Edited 6 July, 2023 by Verbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 There's nothing dodgy or weird about it at all. City have a shed load of decent young players who want game time and won't be getting it at city. We have a number of current and former staff with links to city and a proven track record of treating their ex players well. City don't want to sell their prospects to rivals so we are the perfect club to sell to. It may or may not work out but the impending sale of Lavia proves that it's worth it for us and the upside is that we get talent that is really much too good for us for a few seasons and we make a healthy profit. We really do need to augment those signings with proven experience if we want to be a success and I am sure we will. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 We’re a dream club for City and their FFP. Next signing will probably be their kitman for £15m. I think it’s all a bit dodgy. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SambaMaverick Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 Yeah we could go around in circles all night, but I guess time will tell. As long as we aren't spunking £10m a pop on City kids and scrimping on anything else, that's fine. It's my opinion that there is better value elsewhere in England and certainly in Europe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 3 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said: A few I’d bet! My view is that in the position we are in as a selling club, I want to watch some of the best talents in the world play for Southampton for however many years we can have them. A few years of Mane/van Dijk, a year of Lavia. These aren’t easy things to come by and I think by attacking the best two academies in the world (City & Chelsea) who have the worst pathways is a wonderful mentality, IF combined with the necessary experience too. We only just fell short on Colwill last year as well, and he is going to be the best CB in the world. Exactly. For a club in our position it's not weird at all, it's actually incredibly smart to have a great relationship with City and Chelsea who have probably the best two large squad setups in the country. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 1 minute ago, Wade Garrett said: We’re a dream club for City and their FFP. Next signing will probably be their kitman for £15m. I think it’s all a bit dodgy. Again what does that mean? We've signed loads of players from City because a load of our former and current staff are from City and probably have some pre-exisiting relationships and knowledge of a lot of their players. It's incredibly likely imo that this midfielder is more skilled than anyone else we would get for the money and is available because they want game time and city can't give it to them. He's probably looked at how it's worked out for Lavia and jumped at the chance. It's bizarre so many people calling it dodgy because we've looked at the best club in the country with their giant squads and got into a position where we have a great relationship with them and can get a great number of their players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 5 minutes ago, SambaMaverick said: Yeah we could go around in circles all night, but I guess time will tell. As long as we aren't spunking £10m a pop on City kids and scrimping on anything else, that's fine. It's my opinion that there is better value elsewhere in England and certainly in Europe. Like Lavia you mean? Or Tino? No one can argue that we haven't extracted maximum value from both of those signings. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SambaMaverick Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 Just now, hypochondriac said: Like Lavia you mean? Or Tino? No one can argue that we haven't extracted maximum value from both of those signings. Tino came from City? That's news to me. I'm arguing in favour of more deals like Tino by looking outside of City. I know this is almost a moot point and easy to say with hindsight. But would you be happy with spending almost £30m on Bazunu, Larios and Edozie - if Lavia never existed? If the 25% hit rate decreases (even less if you include Gunn), then it's going to look ugly for the club accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 5 minutes ago, SambaMaverick said: Bazunu, Larios and Edozie Bit harsh to write them off after a tough season with a shit show of a team. If any of these have a good season this year in a lower league suddenly you are looking at 20m players. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modern matron Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 6 July, 2023 Share Posted 6 July, 2023 4 minutes ago, SambaMaverick said: Tino came from City? That's news to me. I'm arguing in favour of more deals like Tino by looking outside of City. I know this is almost a moot point and easy to say with hindsight. But would you be happy with spending almost £30m on Bazunu, Larios and Edozie - if Lavia never existed? If the 25% hit rate decreases (even less if you include Gunn), then it's going to look ugly for the club accounts. Our strategy is very obviously to buy promising youngsters to utilise in and around the first team. We've done that with the Chelsea right back this week and have done it the past too with Tino.l and we've clearly gone for a lot of City youth due to the size of their squads and the lack of pathway for youngsters to the first team. Being overly reliant on youth was obviously a mistake last year and the club have said as much this year and imo it's likely that we will get in experience alongside investment in young players. It's too early and we won't yet be able to tell if we will recoup our investment in Bazunu, Larios and Edozie or make a profit. Edozie in particular could have a season like Tella this season and then it will look like a shrewd move. Bazunu has a chance of coming good too even if I personally wouldn't want him as first choice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSA96 Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, modern matron said: Classic YouTube video disclaimer but... looks good. Seems quite happy to be combative. We need that, especially from a larger lad. If we sold JWP, Lavia and Diallo and ended up with Charles, Grimes, Downes (even on loan) and Alcaraz all here by the time the window shuts, that's a very nice midfield group on paper. Edited 7 July, 2023 by CSA96 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danbert Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 "It is not guaranteed West Ham will move for Zakaria, who is an affordable option. They have not made a final decision on their targets. There is strong interest in Fulham’s João Palhinha, who is expected to cost at least £50m, and Southampton’s James Ward-Prowse. Southampton are desperate to sign Flynn Downes, who has made little impact since joining West Ham last summer." https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/jul/06/david-moyes-loses-second-west-ham-coach-paul-nevin-strasbourg-patrick-vieira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_SFC Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 6 hours ago, modern matron said: Loves a through ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galway saint Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 Would be nice to be linked with experienced proven players who aren’t crap rather than kids. It didn’t work last year so why would it work this year ? High risk again 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wsaint Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 7 hours ago, skintsaint said: Any chance to get Rico Lewis? 😅 Not a chance in hell 😂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Galway saint said: Would be nice to be linked with experienced proven players who aren’t crap rather than kids. It didn’t work last year so why would it work this year ? High risk again Possibly because we're in a different league and our new Director of Football was academy Director at City so is probably the most knowledgeable person about the skills and limitations of these players? Edited 7 July, 2023 by Nolan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galway saint Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 2 minutes ago, Nolan said: Possibly because we're in a different league and our new Director of Football was academy Director at City so is probably the most knowledgeable person about the skills and limitations of these players? Possibly but shields had similar access to the squad and that didn’t work out as hoped. It might work but as I said it’s more high risk than the proven route of buying good and experienced players who have done it before and frankly our owners have done nothing to install confidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 Sorry but you’ve lost me on this “weird” relationship with Man City. Like Chelsea they have more good youth players than they know what to do with. So after having the former City man Joe Shields employed by the club for a few weeks followed by their former youth DOF Jason Wilcox then surely going back to City for their available young players is a good thing no? But wait, under Martin we are going to be playing heavy possession based football, moving the ball quickly, sucking the opponents in and waiting for those openings to attack with purpose……….so why the hell would we possibly go for players who have been schooled in precisely that style by the current best team in the country? Crazy, haven’t Crystal Palace got any players we could have? 🙄 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodymatt Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 Seems like a good amount of competition for his signature, which is encouraging. I agree we need a balance of potential and experience and expect to see that come 1st September. Being a level down, some of these kids might flourish. McAtee and Doyle were impressive last season but Delap didn’t pull up any trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 What’s the point in our academy if we are just going to buy City’s though? Doesnt this block routes for players like Doyle? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodymatt Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 (edited) Surely there is not a scenario where we sell Prowsey for £20-25m? Edited 7 July, 2023 by goodymatt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 5 minutes ago, Galway saint said: Possibly but shields had similar access to the squad and that didn’t work out as hoped. It might work but as I said it’s more high risk than the proven route of buying good and experienced players who have done it before and frankly our owners have done nothing to install confidence Shields was head of Youth Recruitment at Man City so arguably was watching other teams players rather than their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galway saint Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 5 minutes ago, Nolan said: Shields was head of Youth Recruitment at Man City so arguably was watching other teams players rather than their own. Yes but he must have known a lot about the players otherwise why recommend we sign them ? Maybe Wilcox is a better judge. Neither of us know but it’s higher risk and so far we have a hit rate of 1 out of 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SotonianWill Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 Am I the only one bored of this ‘buy back clause’ approach? All they care about is getting more money at the end of a glorified loan. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 3 minutes ago, SotonianWill said: Am I the only one bored of this ‘buy back clause’ approach? All they care about is getting more money at the end of a glorified loan. I think we have to accept this is SR model buy young sell on for profit. The thing we had wrong was the quality of the experienced to match that philosophy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 17 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said: What’s the point in our academy if we are just going to buy City’s though? Doesnt this block routes for players like Doyle? Not when they play in different positions, no. In terms of youth prospects we have little by way of center backs, central midfielders (at least the dm type) or goalkeepers so no paths being blocked by signings for these positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 1 hour ago, Galway saint said: Would be nice to be linked with experienced proven players who aren’t crap rather than kids. It didn’t work last year so why would it work this year ? High risk again We are linked with some experienced (not crap) players, Downes, Piroe, Grimes, Manning... The issue is that you can't buy high quality experienced players, cos they are too expensive. Lavia without experience £10m, Lavia with experience £50m. Lavia worked. Baz didn't. Orsic, Onuachi, Aribo and the many experienced pros already at the club certainly didn't work out. It's a lower division. So the standard is lower, so the young players have more chance of shining straight away. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 29 minutes ago, SotonianWill said: Am I the only one bored of this ‘buy back clause’ approach? All they care about is getting more money at the end of a glorified loan. It's annoying. I guess if it's the only way to get the player, you have to accept it, but now we are in the championship, selling a player back to City for £40m will seem like a massive success. Not many championship players go for that money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convict Colony Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 9 minutes ago, Chez said: We are linked with some experienced (not crap) players, Downes, Piroe, Grimes, Manning... The issue is that you can't buy high quality experienced players, cos they are too expensive. Lavia without experience £10m, Lavia with experience £50m. Lavia worked. Baz didn't. Orsic, Onuachi, Aribo and the many experienced pros already at the club certainly didn't work out. It's a lower division. So the standard is lower, so the young players have more chance of shining straight away. exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 49 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said: What’s the point in our academy if we are just going to buy City’s though? Doesnt this block routes for players like Doyle? Can't have too many young players competing for a first team place. And we want the absolute best young players to turn to when a slot opens up in the first team, not just the 'best we have at the time'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSA96 Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SotonianWill Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 (edited) *duplicate post* Edited 7 July, 2023 by SotonianWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 It seems fairly unlikely to me but I would absolutely love it if he came back and played a role next year. Probably as backup but it would just be pleasing to see him out there. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSA96 Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 (edited) I would get him back just to sort out the dressing room culture and provide some leadership. Given he played 33 games for a club like Lille last season, feels like quite a drop but pretty sure his family never moved away from their home in England, so maybe he’s keen for that reason too Edited 7 July, 2023 by CSA96 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodymatt Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 Jose Fonte baby, Jose Fonte ohhhhhhhh! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sussex_saint Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 8 hours ago, hypochondriac said: Our strategy is very obviously to buy promising youngsters to utilise in and around the first team. We've done that with the Chelsea right back this week and have done it the past too with Tino.l and we've clearly gone for a lot of City youth due to the size of their squads and the lack of pathway for youngsters to the first team. Being overly reliant on youth was obviously a mistake last year and the club have said as much this year and imo it's likely that we will get in experience alongside investment in young players. It's too early and we won't yet be able to tell if we will recoup our investment in Bazunu, Larios and Edozie or make a profit. Edozie in particular could have a season like Tella this season and then it will look like a shrewd move. Bazunu has a chance of coming good too even if I personally wouldn't want him as first choice. Completely agree with what you are saying, especially about Edozie. He had moments of class and if we keep hold of him then by next year could make a decent profit. On a side note, I find It bizarre that we barely played him in the second half of the season. This guy was an absolute foul magnet, and considering we have/had the best free kick taker in the league, God knows why we didn't use this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 26 minutes ago, Chez said: The issue is that you can't buy high quality experienced players, cos they are too expensive. Lavia without experience £10m, Lavia with experience £50m. Lavia worked. Baz didn't. Orsic, Onuachi, Aribo and the many experienced pros already at the club certainly didn't work out. It's a lower division. So the standard is lower, so the young players have more chance of shining straight away. Nor did Larios or Edozie. Only 1 in 4 of our city recruits suceeded, and let's not overlook that if we had a decent keeper rather than Bazunu, we may have avoided relegation. It's madness that people are dressing up our signing kids from City policy as a success story because 1 player did well. As for Orsic, we wouldn't have had to take a punt in him if Edozie could actually do anything with the ball - Edozie was part of the problem which led to that problem!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 1 hour ago, goodymatt said: Surely there is not a scenario where we sell Prowsey for £20-25m? If there is a player we want thrown in yes I can but I think on it’s own 30-35m is minimum for him but can’t see many chasing him TBH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SotonianWill Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 1 minute ago, Give it to Ron said: If there is a player we want thrown in yes I can but I think on it’s own 30-35m is minimum for him but can’t see many chasing him TBH. Any deal involving downes and i’d be very happy indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 1 hour ago, SotonianWill said: Am I the only one bored of this ‘buy back clause’ approach? All they care about is getting more money at the end of a glorified loan. Get used to it, with the new rules coming in over the next few years around youth loans then this will likely be the way forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 59 minutes ago, SotonianWill said: Am I the only one bored of this ‘buy back clause’ approach? All they care about is getting more money at the end of a glorified loan. I'm not, and I see no issue with loans or glorified loans. At the end of the day, a deal has to work for all parties. A kid may be devastated to leave City or Chelsea and yearn to go back once they've had experience. A loan makes that happen, and a buy back makes it possible. For the selling club, it may be that they want another club to develop, but may not want to commit to having the kid back so they have the option, but at a price which makes it a runner for both clubs. For the likes of us, we get a player who may do well, and a chance of a profit if there's a buy back - and it's probably the only way we'd get the kid anyway. Put it another way, if the choice was Tino on the deal we got, or no Tino, what would you have wanted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSA96 Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 8 minutes ago, egg said: Nor did Larios or Edozie. Only 1 in 4 of our city recruits suceeded, and let's not overlook that if we had a decent keeper rather than Bazunu, we may have avoided relegation. It's madness that people are dressing up our signing kids from City policy as a success story because 1 player did well. As for Orsic, we wouldn't have had to take a punt in him if Edozie could actually do anything with the ball - Edozie was part of the problem which led to that problem!! Unless our goalkeeper was playing rush goalie and could stick at least 10 goals in across the season, I’m not sure it would’ve saved us to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 Just now, CSA96 said: Unless our goalkeeper was playing rush goalie and could stick at least 10 goals in across the season, I’m not sure it would’ve saved us to be fair. It may not have been enough, but nobody is convincing me that Bazunu didn't cost us points. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSA96 Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 Just now, egg said: It may not have been enough, but nobody is convincing me that Bazunu didn't cost us points. Yeah, fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wsaint Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 20 minutes ago, CSA96 said: My favourite player growing up, would love this I don't care if he's 39. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 1 minute ago, egg said: It may not have been enough, but nobody is convincing me that Bazunu didn't cost us points. McCarthy was equally as terrible As bad as Baz was I stand by the fact that everyone infront of him was so bad it exaggerated his ‘issues’ ten fold, I don’t think he is anywhere near as bad a keeper as is so often made out on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 7 July, 2023 Share Posted 7 July, 2023 1 minute ago, Smirking_Saint said: McCarthy was equally as terrible As bad as Baz was I stand by the fact that everyone infront of him was so bad it exaggerated his ‘issues’ ten fold, I don’t think he is anywhere near as bad a keeper as is so often made out on here I haven't said anything about McCarthy. I've said Bazunu cost us points, and possibly relegation. We needed a decent keeper, not Bazunu or McCarthy. Let's keep on topic - only 1 in 4 of our city kids cut the mustard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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