Loan system needs overhaul at club

[tippingnoddles]

Apart from the players already in the first team. Saints don’t seem to have a good idea of how to use and graduate the loan system. Conflicting directions from Matt Crocker in the athletic in his first year said that Loans were a last option. Instead he created a bottle neck for the young ambitious players. The players that were on loan were one day beating Rangers playing for Ross county one day and then playing conference or League 2 the next. Anybody who watched saints vs Huddersfield in the FA cup or Saints vs ManCity would realise that you have to strike the iron while it’s hot. Getting somebody from an amateur set up was a mistake because his approach was just to get in ready made players he knew from England set up, piss off the players who weren’t being managed on their pathways and create a huge bottle neck for everybody. Crocker is gone but can the club manage the playing time of their young players. We are always in a crisis so understandable that we don’t really give any chances to the clubs youth apart from Chelsea players and then boast that we have a pathway. Right now would rather join chelsea and have decent playing time at a good club rather than bottle neck or conference or League 2

[once_bitterne]

Are you partially sighted by any chance?

[Daft Kerplunk]

The academy structure needs a good overhaul I would imagine.  Too many players who will never make it on the books, and this ultimately leads to the bottlenecks and players not making it.  Probably needs to go back to being a focussed elite level structure where only the best get in (or the best of those not at Chelsea) and if they aren't good enough, they don't move up the levels, and they certainly wouldn't get pro contracts.  

I doubt whether Crocker was allowed to make much of a difference on his second time at the club, it is all too established and cosy for those at the top of it, and who run the academy.    

[Simon3737]

13 minutes ago, Daft Kerplunk said:

The academy structure needs a good overhaul I would imagine.  Too many players who will never make it on the books, and this ultimately leads to the bottlenecks and players not making it.  Probably needs to go back to being a focussed elite level structure where only the best get in (or the best of those not at Chelsea) and if they aren't good enough, they don't move up the levels, and they certainly wouldn't get pro contracts.  

I doubt whether Crocker was allowed to make much of a difference on his second time at the club, it is all too established and cosy for those at the top of it, and who run the academy.    

I believe the multi-club model is supposed to be the solution here. Academy graduates who won’t make Premier League (assuming we stay there/return) will go to one of the foreign Sport Republic feeder clubs. Have they actually done this yet?

[John Boy Saint]

1 hour ago, once_bitterne said:

Are you partially sighted by any chance?

Nah - he penned it at work in word, then panicked when the Boss walked in the office to see what he was up to, and rushed to post 🙃

[VectisSaint]

3 hours ago, tippingnoddles said:

Apart from the players already in the first team. Saints don’t seem to have a good idea of how to use and graduate the loan system. Conflicting directions from Matt Crocker in the athletic in his first year said that Loans were a last option. Instead he created a bottle neck for the young ambitious players. The players that were on loan were one day beating Rangers playing for Ross county one day and then playing conference or League 2 the next. Anybody who watched saints vs Huddersfield in the FA cup or Saints vs ManCity would realise that you have to strike the iron while it’s hot. Getting somebody from an amateur set up was a mistake because his approach was just to get in ready made players he knew from England set up, piss off the players who weren’t being managed on their pathways and create a huge bottle neck for everybody. Crocker is gone but can the club manage the playing time of their young players. We are always in a crisis so understandable that we don’t really give any chances to the clubs youth apart from Chelsea players and then boast that we have a pathway. Right now would rather join chelsea and have decent playing time at a good club rather than bottle neck or conference or League 2

Really don't understand much of this. First point though is Crocker has not gone, he is still here until the end of the season. Second, he didn't come from an Amateur set up, he joined from England having previously been at Saints. I don't believe there is a club problem with Academies, it is a problem throughout English professional football, especially at the Premier League level. There is very little prospect of an Academy player getting into a PL team nowadays. Only the very very best make it. The best young players (the one likely to make it) are hoovered up by Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal etc, regardless of their original club. Then when they find they are not getting a pathway at an elite club they are farmed out to lesser clubs, then blocking the pathway for the best of those at the lesser club academies. Those young players that don't make it all too often are then lost to football, because they have lead a pandered existence and don't see that a career at a lower league/conference club is still a worthwhile course to follow. I don't know the answer, but do think there is some merit in introducing B teams into the main league structure in this country (I know its unpopular), as they do in Spain and Germany. There are far too many decent footballers kicking around, wasting their time and careers in Academy football. 

[saintant]

The ownership, management and whole club needs an overhaul - the loan system is the least of our worries.

[SotonianWill]

2 hours ago, Daft Kerplunk said:

The academy structure needs a good overhaul I would imagine.  Too many players who will never make it on the books, and this ultimately leads to the bottlenecks and players not making it.  Probably needs to go back to being a focussed elite level structure where only the best get in (or the best of those not at Chelsea) and if they aren't good enough, they don't move up the levels, and they certainly wouldn't get pro contracts.  

I doubt whether Crocker was allowed to make much of a difference on his second time at the club, it is all too established and cosy for those at the top of it, and who run the academy.    

it does, I think overall the B team structure has failed or at least not changed anything. 

[tippingnoddles]

3 hours ago, once_bitterne said:

Are you partially sighted by any chance?

😂

[S-Clarke]

4 hours ago, tippingnoddles said:

Apart from the players already in the first team. Saints don’t seem to have a good idea of how to use and graduate the loan system. Conflicting directions from Matt Crocker in the athletic in his first year said that Loans were a last option. Instead he created a bottle neck for the young ambitious players. The players that were on loan were one day beating Rangers playing for Ross county one day and then playing conference or League 2 the next. Anybody who watched saints vs Huddersfield in the FA cup or Saints vs ManCity would realise that you have to strike the iron while it’s hot. Getting somebody from an amateur set up was a mistake because his approach was just to get in ready made players he knew from England set up, piss off the players who weren’t being managed on their pathways and create a huge bottle neck for everybody. Crocker is gone but can the club manage the playing time of their young players. We are always in a crisis so understandable that we don’t really give any chances to the clubs youth apart from Chelsea players and then boast that we have a pathway. Right now would rather join chelsea and have decent playing time at a good club rather than bottle neck or conference or League 2

It has been a bit confused, I agree. You are right in when Crocker came in there was a philosophy to no longer loan out our best young players, as we felt they'd be better served being coached by 'us' rather than in a different style. That lasted all of 6 months I think before we started throwing players out on loan again.

I never saw the sense of blocking loans because players only develop through playing, not what they do in the training ground and kids football. If they're good enough to come straight in then that's great, but they're very rare situations and you probably get a handful every 20 years of that scenario.

What Henrik said in the forum was quite telling - it was mentioned that the strategy in the window was to buy young to fill the gap between 19-21 year olds, and he said....''as we're not very good in those age groups'' - he might be true in saying that, but it doesn't exactly throw up much hope of any sort of pathway for the younger lads.

[Southner]

2 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

Really don't understand much of this. First point though is Crocker has not gone, he is still here until the end of the season. Second, he didn't come from an Amateur set up, he joined from England having previously been at Saints. I don't believe there is a club problem with Academies, it is a problem throughout English professional football, especially at the Premier League level. There is very little prospect of an Academy player getting into a PL team nowadays. Only the very very best make it. The best young players (the one likely to make it) are hoovered up by Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal etc, regardless of their original club. Then when they find they are not getting a pathway at an elite club they are farmed out to lesser clubs, then blocking the pathway for the best of those at the lesser club academies. Those young players that don't make it all too often are then lost to football, because they have lead a pandered existence and don't see that a career at a lower league/conference club is still a worthwhile course to follow. I don't know the answer, but do think there is some merit in introducing B teams into the main league structure in this country (I know its unpopular), as they do in Spain and Germany. There are far too many decent footballers kicking around, wasting their time and careers in Academy football. 

Ultimately, there's too much money in football. City, Chelsea and the like can throw ridiculous amounts of cash at practically anyone they want if they have a position needing filling. Academy players are then effectively left as scraps for lesser teams to pick up, many of which you never really hear of again. Can't be good for morale. 

Not sure if a wage cap of sorts would help level the playing field, but can't really see that happening. 

[david in sweden]

Given the history of Academy graduates over the last 15 years, we see that those few who were sold to " bigger " clubs got much attention

whereas many others in their squads disappeared into the obscurity of lower / non league clubs. Saints can be proud of those who have

moved on (to greater things), but on my reckoning  at least 30  former Saints Academy graduates are making a living playing in various

lower leagues today.  The outcome of  moving to / and staying ...at  Prem. side is a much bigger challenge. 

Many people seem to think that a promising youngster from the B team, need only move up the corridor and gets given a first team shirt.

 

As I have repeatedly noted the performance level between the top of the Championship and the bottom end of the Prem. is ENORMOUS.

On average... at least one, often two newly-promoted team will drop down again after two seasons.  Players are no different.

The present Academy group is one of the most promising the club has seen since its inception. 

Our current U18 squad is playing its "second string" players as many of those who started the season have already moved up to the

B side, and are at the top of their league playing 6-7 teenagers - against B teams who utilise their first team and even Prem players.

 

Many in the (19-22 age group) that one might expect to be in B team are amongst the dozen or so already out on loan to lower league sides

and we see the likes of Nathan Tella and Will Smallbone are featuring regularly with their Championship clubs. Whether or not they might return

and make our first team in a future Prem. set-up is an open question in the present circumstances. 

The Walcott's Oxlade-Chamberlain's, Shaw's and Lallana's used to make the cut with the "big clubs " but a great many just don't make it. 

Loan outs are good for everyone.   Lower league sides get a promising  youngster who has the chance to prove himself in "men's football" 

and the result is obvious.  If they can't make it at  L1 /L2 level  they have little chance of returning to St:Mary's and expecting first team 

game time in the Prem.. or even in the Championship in the worst analysis. 

[tippingnoddles]

It would be great to see some of the young lads having a pathway from league 2 upwards. Can you lmagine playing under 23 football at 17 and still hanging around at 19. It’s like being held back in class. The challenges need to be incremental,. Go and look at the development of Aaron Ramsey and see how he has developed. We can say that he’s a keeper and it’s a long game but often the outfield players are not afforded the same opportunities. The key is getting them the right clubs that play good football and setting expectations for development. With the shopping that we have done now, I think the expectation is that we will have a repeat of the era where Hew Jennings/Malcolm Elias were at the wheel and the steady inflow of players came in that were physically more robust and athletic. The landscape has changed and a more graduated approach is needed. 

[FarehamSaintJames]

I do t get why we loan out the likes of N’Lundulu or Watts or Vokins etc. Those players will never be good enough. They’re already in their early 20’s, most bright talents tend to be sniffing around the first team by 18/19 years old.

[Southner]

3 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

I do t get why we loan out the likes of N’Lundulu or Watts or Vokins etc. Those players will never be good enough. They’re already in their early 20’s, most bright talents tend to be sniffing around the first team by 18/19 years old.

With the hope of good performances at a lower level, puts them in the shop window/increases the asking price? 

Could argue that the longer they're kept on the books, the less chance of making any considerable money back, seeing as full/part wages will still be outgoing. 

[egg]

10 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

I do t get why we loan out the likes of N’Lundulu or Watts or Vokins etc. Those players will never be good enough. They’re already in their early 20’s, most bright talents tend to be sniffing around the first team by 18/19 years old.

I agree that they're not good enough, but while they're under contract surely it makes sense that they go out on loan. Thet (sometimes) get to play, and we probably get some help with their wages. 

[FarehamSaintJames]

I imagine their wages are high for players of their ability.

Hopefully they’ll go in the summer and they can go and form decent careers for themselves, that’ll free up the wage bill a little.