Jesse Marsch

[Charlie Wayman]

32 minutes ago, egg said:

I've no doubt that his Leeds contract was a factor. However, there's mitigating loss and then there's taking a 3-6 month contract when you're contracted for 27-30 months. I wouldn't be surprised that the club instead of backing JM with a contract beyond this season showed typical naivety and JM understandably walked away to the comfort blanket of his Leeds contract. I can't see any credible way of bouncing this onto JM.

What's wrong with a probationary period to prove yourself before everyone decides if they can go forward together? Sounds like a very adult way of doing things. Most of us had to serve probationary periods at some point in our lives.

Avoid relegation and you get the fat juicy contract, what's wrong with that. Obviously not a challenge that Marsch was prepared to take on so good effing riddance to him.

Edited 16 February, 2023 by Charlie Wayman

[Stud mark of doom]

I wonder if Leeds might have taken an unexpected firm stance on the wording of their contract, with a view to making it financially unattractive for Marsch to take over (at one of their relegation rivals)? 
 

Otherwise, it does seem odd that this would only have been thought about at the 11th hour. 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

What's wrong with a probationary period to prove yourself before everyone decides if they can go forward together? Sounds like a very adult way of doing things. Most of us had to serve probationary periods at some point in our lives.

Avoid relegation and you get the fat juicy contract, what's wrong with that. Obviously not a challenge that Marsch was prepared to take on so good effing riddance to him.

Nobody in their their right mind would take a 3-6 contract when they already have one for 27-30 months. It's completely unrealistic, and seems that's what SR were expecting JM to do. There is no blame on JM here. 

[InvictaSaint]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Nobody in their their right mind would take a 3-6 contract when they already have one for 27-30 months. It's completely unrealistic, and seems that's what SR were expecting JM to do. There is no blame on JM here. 

But it is reasonable to say that JM - if this is true - was unrealistic in the extreme to expect a club in our position with our recent manager experience and with relegation an 80% probability to offer anything other than a short term contract. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, InvictaSaint said:

But it is reasonable to say that JM - if this is true - was unrealistic in the extreme to expect a club in our position with our recent manager experience and with relegation an 80% probability to offer anything other than a short term contract. 

Depends if you're looking from a saints perspective or an objective one. Objectively, there is zero prospect of expecting anyone who has almost 2 1/2 years contract at £3.5m a year to sign a 3-6 month contract. Trying to push that into JM is naive in the extreme - we needed JM more than he needed us and the club didn't play the room. 

[John D]

44 minutes ago, egg said:

Depends if you're looking from a saints perspective or an objective one. Objectively, there is zero prospect of expecting anyone who has almost 2 1/2 years contract at £3.5m a year to sign a 3-6 month contract. Trying to push that into JM is naive in the extreme - we needed JM more than he needed us and the club didn't play the room. 

Been told by someone with contacts on Leeds side that Marsch was initially ok with s/t deal.  He changed his position when contractual issues came out. 

[egg]

Just now, John D said:

Been told by someone with contacts on Leeds side that Marsch was initially ok with s/t deal.  He changed his position when contractual issues came out. 

Need the context...he may have been ok on the understanding/assumption that there'd be a deal that didn't leave him out of pocket if saints didn't extend beyond the short term contract on offer. As much as saints fan seem hell bent in blaming JM, there's about 8 million reasons to walk away from that Leeds contract without an adequate replacement. 

[Toussaint]

2 minutes ago, John D said:

Been told by someone with contacts on Leeds side that Marsch was initially ok with s/t deal.  He changed his position when contractual issues came out. 

Sounds like the most plausible explanation to me.

[OldNick]

11 hours ago, smoke said:

To be honest, leeds fan here in peace.

You have had a lucky escape. He is more than a bit of a fake, taken us backwards in a year with better players and much much worse football and the fitness levels at the club is now a problem, something wed got used to thinking we could last the full 90 at full bore, is no more.

On top of that had backing more than he deserved from the leeds support home and away.

Its a myth hes suffered an xenophobic response or been straddled by the ghost of Biesla.

He had support, from board and fans at games.

Blamed everyone else but himself and was performative beyond sense, calling the players scared on the touchline whilst not being willing to say thank you to travelling fans after defeats.

Also the odd habit of celebrating defeats, which didnt go down well.

Ive seen a lot following leeds in the last 50 years, good and bad and sometimes just plain mad and whilst hes not the most crazy or unfit to do the job we've had he is one of the worst for the level he was managing.

Pound for pound hes right up there in our shit managers list.

Im upset in a way that we wont be facing him at Elland road whilst i have no doubt in our ability to lose a game, we would have had a great chance against his "penisball" tactics and the acres of space he left on both flanks for opposing teams to waltz into.

 

 

 

Could you give us your thoughts on how he 'saved' you from relegation last season

 It seems his interviews and touchline antics seem to impress a certain type of fan. His failures elsewhere seem to be brushed over, to be fair he did do ok at one former club.

[OldNick]

9 hours ago, Saint86 said:

We can be pretty confident that article is rubbish tbh. They're not convinced by JM but were happy to see Jones hired, and dressing room moral improved? Ditto no one ever said they didn't like the tactics under Ralph, Marsch's are basically the same. 

Also, we're bottom of the league - the players aren't thinking about any "project" other than staying up and maintaining their wages... 😂

I think its important the players have a bit of input. If they were against him from the start then it was always going to be difficult, especially after the last escapade.

Half the fan base were also of the same opinion it seems. 

 

[OldNick]

3 hours ago, bangkoksaint said:

Selles can get off to a flyer simply by not selecting Janny B, Diallo and Lyanco. If he goes down that route he’s condemned himself before a ball is kicked.

I think Janny B but the other 2 can be useful. 

[OldNick]

3 hours ago, CB Fry said:

I don’t work in football administration but anyone who does should have been able to anticipate this scenario (and others) before Jessie Marsch even got on the M1 to come down. He only got sacked two weeks ago so would definitely still be being paid by Leeds.

Obviously whatever they tried to negotiate wasn't enough for us or him.

Really I think the error is the club are far too leaky and chatty to pet journalists/contacts. The over confident briefings yesterday morning I think were an avoidable mistake.

 

Perhaps they were testing the water to fans reaction as well??

[saintant]

9 hours ago, timbatop said:

Having no insight of any kind .... suggestion for what could have happened here:

Marsch signed a 3 year deal at Leeds, 2 years ago. Rumoured to be worth £15M, ie £5M/ year. 

With 2 years left to run, it's possible that he's in line for the remaining £10M.  It's possible there's a clause that they don't have to pay if he gets another job. 

It's understandable that Saints are unwilling to pay that off before committing to a new contract for him, and understandable that he wouldn't walk away from £10M for a 6 month deal worth (£2M?).

Couldn't that have been discussed at the very first conversation they had with Marsch to save wasting everyone's time? It's not as though it's not well known in football that managers get sacked with huge pay-offs. Having said that we are talking about Ankersen and Semmens who don't strike me as too switched on when it comes to footballing matters which is a major worry in itself.

Edited 16 February, 2023 by saintant

[saintant]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Indeed.

But it's a two way street and I imagine that Saints (finally), have done their maths as well.  Let's say they gave in and offered a two year deal (which is likely to have mitigated JM's contract losses from Leeds), he accepts and is piss poor meaning he gets the boot at the end of the season.

Meanwhile, The Welsh Wonderkind and the Austrian Klopp are still living life to the max and not bothering to look for a new role, leaving Saints to pay the wages of THREE ex managers as well as having to fork out for a FOURTH when a new one is appointed.  All that whilst in the Championship!

It's the kind of thing that is likely to happen when clowns are running the circus.

[Fan The Flames]

35 minutes ago, egg said:

Need the context...he may have been ok on the understanding/assumption that there'd be a deal that didn't leave him out of pocket if saints didn't extend beyond the short term contract on offer. As much as saints fan seem hell bent in blaming JM, there's about 8 million reasons to walk away from that Leeds contract without an adequate replacement. 

Are Saints fans trying to blame JM, it seems the other way around on here. Does their have to be any blame at all?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

24 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Perhaps they were testing the water to fans reaction as well??

Jesus I hope not. We really are fucked if that was thecase

[Nordic Saint]

26 minutes ago, OldNick said:

 

Could you give us your thoughts on how he 'saved' you from relegation last season

 It seems his interviews and touchline antics seem to impress a certain type of fan. His failures elsewhere seem to be brushed over, to be fair he did do ok at one former club.

He took them from 16th to the bottom 3 and was only saved on the final day of the season by coming up against a lower mid-table Brentford with nothing to play for, who conceded a penalty and were reduced to 9 men.

Even though he made them worse after he took over, he got very lucky on the final day with a 94th minute deflected shot against 9 men.

"Even when Brentford were reduced to nine men, Raya's goal rarely appeared in serious danger until Dasilva's clearance from a last-minute corner fell for Harrison, whose 25-yard effort took a slight deflection to beat the goalkeeper inside his near post"

 

So, it was a sheer fluke.

[trousers]

30 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Perhaps they were testing the water to fans reaction as well??

 

5 minutes ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Jesus I hope not. We really are fucked if that was thecase

If they had "tested the water" before appointing Corporal Jones we might not be in the pickle we are now... (?)

[Baird of the land]

35 minutes ago, OldNick said:

 

Could you give us your thoughts on how he 'saved' you from relegation last season

 It seems his interviews and touchline antics seem to impress a certain type of fan. His failures elsewhere seem to be brushed over, to be fair he did do ok at one former club.

Isn't it essentially the Mark Hughes situation. Take over a club hovering around relegation zone , finish just right side of line(whether down to what they do or poorness of other clubs) but as we learned to our cost that didn't make him a good manager. 

[trousers]

21 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Are Saints fans trying to blame JM, it seems the other way around on here. Does their have to be any blame at all?

This is the internet era. It's all about speculation, jumping to conclusions and pointing an instant finger. Rational thought, research and tangible evidence tend to take a back seat. 

(Tune in next week for my grandmother egg sucking lecture  )

Edited 16 February, 2023 by trousers

[OldNick]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

 

(Tune in next week for my grandmother egg sucking lecture  )

Does Egg know about this??

[OldNick]

8 minutes ago, trousers said:

 

If they had "tested the water" before appointing Corporal Jones we might not be in the pickle we are now... (?)

I think they were delighted to get rid of ralph?

[LeBizzier69]

Not a fan of the term “bed wetting” in relation to anything other than actually pissing the bed, but there are a lot if people on here and social media doing what I assume it to mean in these situations.

People turn down jobs all the time for varying reasons. Doesn’t have to be anything more read into it than that. He’s not coming, we move on. Could be a massive bullet dodged….we’ll never know.

Some want Rooney I see. Not for me - I’d like someone with a half decent command of the English language.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

4 minutes ago, trousers said:

This is the internet era. It's all about speculation, jumping to conclusions and pointing an instant finger. Rational thought, research and tangible evidence tend to take a back seat. 

(Tune in next week for my grandmother egg sucking lecture  )

I think my Saintsweb parental control setting is going to block that. 🙂

[Nordic Saint]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

This is the internet era. It's all about jumping to conclusions and pointing an instant finger. Rational thought, research and tangible evidence tend to take a back seat. 

(Tune in next week for my grandmother egg sucking lecture  )

We should all be happy that after the unpopular Jones appointment, we dodged another bullet with Marsch. Neither of them had much to commend them and neither will be missed.

[John B]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Depends if you're looking from a saints perspective or an objective one. Objectively, there is zero prospect of expecting anyone who has almost 2 1/2 years contract at £3.5m a year to sign a 3-6 month contract. Trying to push that into JM is naive in the extreme - we needed JM more than he needed us and the club didn't play the room. 

Quite right it no one is to blame we are going down there is only a faint chance that we can get over twenty points in our remaining games

 

JM currently has a contract with Leeds for another two years it would be stupid for him to sign another contract with SFC for anything less than that similarly it would be stupid for SFC to sign a long expensive contract with a PL manager at the present time.

 

I would be happy with somebody like Scott Parker to manage us in the Championship as I just cannot see us surviving especially after we were 1 up against Wolves who had 10 ten and we lost

 

The squad is too inexperienced and error prone and I just do not feel they are a team just a collection of young players who have found their way recently to Southampton

[OldNick]

25 minutes ago, John B said:

Quite right it no one is to blame we are going down there is only a faint chance that we can get over twenty points in our remaining games

 

JM currently has a contract with Leeds for another two years it would be stupid for him to sign another contract with SFC for anything less than that similarly it would be stupid for SFC to sign a long expensive contract with a PL manager at the present time.

 

I would be happy with somebody like Scott Parker to manage us in the Championship as I just cannot see us surviving especially after we were 1 up against Wolves who had 10 ten and we lost

 

The squad is too inexperienced and error prone and I just do not feel they are a team just a collection of young players who have found their way recently to Southampton

Scott Parker, please nooooooooo. Talk to Fulham and Bournemouth fans and I doubt you will get one who is positive

[Wade Garrett]

I had hoped that we could get a new manager in so he could give the team a real identity ready for a promotion push next season.

I have no expectations of staying up this season.  We have been criminally run by Sports Republic, not getting rid of the lame duck that Ralph became any sooner and then the disastrous, rushed appointment of Jones have sealed our fate.

The pool of available managers is pretty limited at the moment.  There is a chance that we could get a better manager in now as we are still a Premier League team, rather than wait until the end of the season.  It is a slim chance though.

We might as well accept our fate and leave Selles in charge.  I am really angry with Ankersen and Semmens, we have spent a ton of money on players and are absolute shite out on the pitch every week.  That is down to them and the direction they've taken the club in.  If I was Dragan, heads would be rolling.

[LuckyNumber7]

53 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Are Saints fans trying to blame JM, it seems the other way around on here. Does their have to be any blame at all?

Exactly this, the way the Sky Sports reporter painted it yesterday was that both sides had decided mutually that the deal wasn't right and had walked away amicably with a handshake. That's just how negotiations go, doesn't always end with an agreement but people are just using it as another stick to beat the club with.

Personally I'm disappointed as I'd come round to the idea of Marsch and think he would have been a good fit, but if they didn't feel it was right for whatever reason then we have to trust them. Only those on the inside know the exact reasons.

[OldNick]

1 minute ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

Exactly this, the way the Sky Sports reporter painted it yesterday was that both sides had decided mutually that the deal wasn't right and had walked away amicably with a handshake. That's just how negotiations go, doesn't always end with an agreement but people are just using it as another stick to beat the club with.

Personally I'm disappointed as I'd come round to the idea of Marsch and think he would have been a good fit, but if they didn't feel it was right for whatever reason then we have to trust them. Only those on the inside know the exact reasons.

I would have follwed behind the choice but the thought that he just plays a narrow game, thus Edozie and Orsic , wingers not fitting in, would not be good

[Roo1976]

wow hes generated 24 pages and nothing to do with us now................................wow...................still lets try for 30 before the club decide whos next in,if at all.

[John B]

10 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Scott Parker, please nooooooooo. Talk to Fulham and Bournemouth fans and I doubt you will get one who is positive

Well getting both teams promoted to the PL seems pretty positive to me compared with your negative response

[Holmes_and_Watson]

From JM's perspective, he's being asked to take a short term deal, with a very likely relegation to add to his CV at the end of it, and have possibly no chance to recover from that with a promotion season. That's a substantial personal, reputational risk. Not to mention money he may lose from his Leeds pay off.

He can look at his RB, premier League and career record with some pride. And he can point out that if we were giving NJ a 3.5 year deal, based on that experience level, then he's at least worth that.

Oh, and he'll have to work with Selles (who, even if good, may be a distracting voice from the messages needed to drive home JM's tactics to keep us up) and put up with repeated requests for 5 at the back and various "genius" Rasmus plans.

From Saints' side, as noted, there's the cost. Lots of managers get payoffs, but it's a big burden to be paying off 3 managers while also paying your current one. In the end, they weren't convinced enough with JM's record to commit. How much the sting of the NJ recruitment has unsettled them, and their faith in their own ability, we don't know.

They may well have other options in the works. Although with the JM ones being fairly advanced, you wonder just how far any of those are. Selles is clearly not their first option, which he and all the squad will know.

While we can hope Selles does really well, he's not got anywhere near the track record of JM.  A caretaker type role while the club work away at a replacement, is just as likely to see us limp towards the drop.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

8 minutes ago, John B said:

Well getting both teams promoted to the PL seems pretty positive to me compared with your negative response

Based on my in depth knowledge of only hearing it yesterday, Parker's results since taking over at Brugge look to be really poor. Lost yesterday too, although in Europe, I think. Quick peek shows 1 win in 8.

[Baird of the land]

23 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

I had hoped that we could get a new manager in so he could give the team a real identity ready for a promotion push next season.

I have no expectations of staying up this season.  We have been criminally run by Sports Republic, not getting rid of the lame duck that Ralph became any sooner and then the disastrous, rushed appointment of Jones have sealed our fate.

The pool of available managers is pretty limited at the moment.  There is a chance that we could get a better manager in now as we are still a Premier League team, rather than wait until the end of the season.  It is a slim chance though.

We might as well accept our fate and leave Selles in charge.  I am really angry with Ankersen and Semmens, we have spent a ton of money on players and are absolute shite out on the pitch every week.  That is down to them and the direction they've taken the club in.  If I was Dragan, heads would be rolling.

I'd disagree with this. In the summer we won't be tainted with relegation on CV and manager will have free reign to shape squad, that's when you'll likely get a better manager options.

 

[East Kent Saint]

March has only been teamless for 2 weeks , unless they are head hunted managers don't normally jump into another job especially to another relegation candidate and before his compensation has been sorted out . Even Ten Hag would need some time and a window or two to sort Saints out.

[Ed Rooney]

I have it on good authority that Marsch was pleased with all aspects of the contract, but went to watch the players in training and no one has seen or heard from him since. 

[Fan The Flames]

45 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Based on my in depth knowledge of only hearing it yesterday, Parker's results since taking over at Brugge look to be really poor. Lost yesterday too, although in Europe, I think. Quick peek shows 1 win in 8.

Also 2 losses in 8, a load of draws, some with teams in and around them. Not that I want SP, just fleshing out the record a bit.

[OldNick]

1 hour ago, John B said:

Well getting both teams promoted to the PL seems pretty positive to me compared with your negative response

Not just mine. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Also 2 losses in 8, a load of draws, some with teams in and around them. Not that I want SP, just fleshing out the record a bit.

Well, that teaches me not to even read along the line. The ref rightly blowing for a lazy post there. 🙂

[egg]

2 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Are Saints fans trying to blame JM, it seems the other way around on here. Does their have to be any blame at all?

Yes. SR have made error after error. Expecting to get Marsch on a very short term deal knowing he was under a long term contract was daft. It's just wasted time that we don't have. 

[Nolan]

If, as the Athletic reports, March was yet to agree compensation with Leeds, him taking the Job will have severely effected the pay off.

Any offer from us would have had to mitigate that.

That in itself would have made a deal difficult.

 

[Charlie Wayman]

1 hour ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Jesus I hope not. We really are fucked if that was thecase

…but surely the fans opinions are important, as the man said "without fans what's the point".

I am very much in favour of fan representation on the board but fully understand all the hurdles and hazards that come with such a utopian vision.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

15 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

…but surely the fans opinions are important, as the man said "without fans what's the point".

I am very much in favour of fan representation on the board but fully understand all the hurdles and hazards that come with such a utopian vision.

Fans are important but when making big decisions like managerial appointments it has to be left to the “so called” experts. However I admit on this occasion the fans would probably have done a better job. 

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Fans are important but when making big decisions like managerial appointments it has to be left to the “so called” experts. However I admit on this occasion the fans would probably have done a better job. 

I think it's fair to say that anyone, absolutley anyone, could have judged the Jones situation better than the experts at the club did on this occasion. Appointing him was ridiculous in the first place, but taking so long to actually admit the mistake made it 10x worse.

 

[SaintTex]

5 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Are Saints fans trying to blame JM, it seems the other way around on here. Does their have to be any blame at all?

interestingly, Prowse has played under 10 managers during his 11 seasons in the top flight.

Adkins

Poch

Koeman

Puel

Pellegrino

Hughes

K. Davis

Hasenhuttl

Selles

Jones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Southampton_F.C._managers

 

Edited 16 February, 2023 by SaintTex

[goodymatt]

I know we all thought Jones was a bad appointment from the off, but I don’t think anyone expected it to go as badly as it did. He made us into a laughing stock and relegated us in 94 days (including a World Cup break!).

it sounds like we are still on ‘respectful’ terms with Jesse Marsch after it was mutually agreed to not proceed. I wonder if after a couple more games we might go back with a different offer, like Wolves did with Lopetegui? Or is this dead as a dodo, much like our season and PL status?

[Saint86]

4 hours ago, egg said:

Yes. SR have made error after error. Expecting to get Marsch on a very short term deal knowing he was under a long term contract was daft. It's just wasted time that we don't have. 

I agree, and perhaps more to the point, why is Rasmus wasting time chasing after a manager that he apparently considers good enough for the premier league, but too poor for the league below... JM was happy to take us on and stay with us if we go down. There is minimal incentive for a manger to keep busting a gut if we're still struggling come april and he knows he's leaving in 1 month, its an utter nonsense strategy from the club - if that is all we are after, either go for a BFS style survival specialist for 6months (with a premium bonus for staying up)... or stick selles in charge and be done with it.

Edited 16 February, 2023 by Saint86

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

I agree, and perhaps more to the point, why is Rasmus wasting time chasing after a manager that he apparently considers good enough for the premier league, but too poor for the league below... JM was happy to take us on and stay with us if we go down. There is minimal incentive for a manger to keep busting a gut if we're still struggling come april and he knows he's leaving in 1 month, its an utter nonsense strategy from the club - if that is all we are after, either go for a BFS style survival specialist for 6months (with a premium bonus for staying up)... or stick selles in charge and be done with it.

Yep, exactly this. The clubs strategy makes no sense whatsoever. 

[smoke]

7 hours ago, OldNick said:

 

Could you give us your thoughts on how he 'saved' you from relegation last season

 It seems his interviews and touchline antics seem to impress a certain type of fan. His failures elsewhere seem to be brushed over, to be fair he did do ok at one former club.

After one game he abandoned 3 years of work, when tweaks at the back would have been the best option and some game management.

Not seen anything like it to be honest.

You had to be there and id say be a leeds fan who has seen a fair bit of this club,with its own unique way of fucking things up for ourselves.

Cant think of such a risky stupidly quick change at any club in decades of going and im a home and away football fan.

 

How did we stay up?

From then on in it was down to in certain games certain players abandoning his plan, some luck with VAR & refs to see us home, a shot being "saved"by put keepers face and more, he made us worse.

He did get "unlucky" that other teams had runs at the end but in reality we all know you can only effect your own games.

Hes not "succeeded" anywhere when you take a closer look, without the RED BULL money and tactical play book in Austria, he was at a club in a league where it would be like  Man City playing in a PL with teams the quality of say the bottom 6 of this division or top of the championship exclusivley.

Postives, he let the players off the Bielsa fitness regimes (we are paying for that now) and with that he lifted morale but even that by the 3rd to last game had players walking past his high fives and avoiding him as he ran across the pitch at the end of 0-0 draw at selhurst park, that was 2pts dropped.

LUFC has been in the midst of a takeover for the last 2 seasons, idealy it should have completed end of 20/21 and the manager we had then would have been backed but it didnt, so we ended up with jesse marsch, a mate of our insane Director of football Victor Orta.

Trouble at the mill in the background is the only limited excuse he has but by fuck they backed him with transfer monies.

If we had any sense we would have said thanks and good bye after the end of last season, just as we should have done with Peter Ried in 2002.

 

 

Edited 16 February, 2023 by smoke