Nathan Jones

[saintscottofthenortham]

Posting here what I put in the Newcastle 2nd Leg thread re: feedback from one of Che's family members we had in on site...

The lads at work had the pleasure of hosting a close family member of Che's whilst I was up in Newcastle for Tuesday night. Interesting comments he's had to say regarding issues the squad had with Ralph. I'm hearing it second hand, obviously, but it was a far from happy camp.

Problems with Ralph were widespread. No details specifically, but things went bad and were getting worse. Talk of lads going to board level weren't unfounded. The dislike was passionate between some players (no names mentioned), but assumed Che one of them).

Newcastle were in for Che last January before signing Wood. Would've doubled Che's wage, but club held firm and Che didn't kick up fuss.

Leeds came in for him this January. Would've nearly doubled his wage. Club held firm and Che didn't kick up fuss.

No mention of Everton, despite links in press.

Lads really like NJ and are enjoying working under him.

Che hasn't wanted a move, despite chance to earn far more, but he emphasised that Che hates leading a line on his own and knows he can't do it. He hasn't been shy about expressing this.

Most notable thing I took from it was how Che has twice had interest from bigger teams willing to bear double his wage, yet he has stuck to his task when he easily could've forced a move, especially so with where we've been at. He does my head with his finishing (or lack thereof), but tip me hat to him for that.

Expecting him to be back in in the not too distant, so I'll try and have a good chat.

Edited 2 February, 2023 by saintscottofthenortham

[64saint]

4 hours ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

Interesting to see that we're holding a fans forum next week, and NJ isn't one of the people attending.

 

Let's hope the first question is .....'Why is the Manager not here to answer our questions and concerns'.

[Viking Saint]

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/23294122.nathan-jones-provides-explanation-southampton-fc-left-back-absence/

Wants 'outcomes' from Perraud. Not sure how 'two goals' would rate as an 'outcome' but you'd guess it wouldn't be deemed as negative??

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Viking Saint said:

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/23294122.nathan-jones-provides-explanation-southampton-fc-left-back-absence/

Wants 'outcomes' from Perraud. Not sure how 'two goals' would rate as an 'outcome' but you'd guess it wouldn't be deemed as negative??

Absolutely nonsensical. 

[Bakovnetski]

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/23294224.nathan-jones-provides-explanation-southampton-fc-back-five-failure/

NJ certainly convinced he is never wrong on his tactics and it's always the players that f*ck up. Not sure this will be a happy camp if the season continues in this direction. 

[stevegrant]

6 hours ago, benjii said:

People are acting like he's been dumped in the shit.

He had the whole world cup to work with the squad, minus two centre backs.

He's got a squad with some proven Prem quality players and a core bunch of players who are no worse than other struggling teams - the one exception to that is probably at GK.

Then he's been backed massively in January. 

He's in a more privileged position than most Saints managers have ever been in, yet he's managed to piss off a vast swathe of the fan base in no time at all. He's terrible.

And so much of it was completely unnecessary. Almost as soon as he's walked through the door his attitude in interviews and press conferences has been all about covering his own arse. Nothing's his fault or his responsibility, and that was after his first game, seeing as he has already disassociated himself from his actual first game at Liverpool. "They weren't winning many games before I arrived" - note the "they" there.

Let's be honest, most managers arrive at clubs after the previous manager had been sacked, usually for results that were below expectation. And as a result, most new managers attempt to get a fairly unhappy fanbase on-side, even if it's with empty platitudes. Get the fans behind you from the start and you'll get a fair bit of rope. Jones has torn up the playbook and decided that being defensive, narky and downright delusional right from the off is the way that he's going to go about it, and then seems surprised that his attitude, coupled with abject performances and results and no sign of learning from the many selection and tactical mistakes, has led a significant portion of the fanbase to decide that he's not up to it.

As mentioned in an earlier post by someone else, as a fanbase we do generally give new managers a warm welcome and a bit of time to get their feet under the table. For the patience to have lasted so little is on Jones, not the fanbase.

Would be interesting to know whose decision it was to not have him on the panel at the Fans Forum. Either it's the club's decision and therefore they know that the fanbase is unhappy and will give him a tough time on live radio, or it's his decision and he doesn't want to have to look paying fans in the eyes and answer some tough questions. Either way, it doesn't reflect especially well.

I'm not sure I'd necessarily put the spending this month in the "backing the manager" basket - it's entirely plausible that those players (James Bree excepted) would have been on our radar this month anyway given the makeup of the squad and its very obvious deficiencies. Modern clubs don't tend to pander to the manager, it's a bit more flexible so that if the manager leaves for whatever reason, the next guy isn't ripping everything up and wanting to get rid of everyone and make 20 new signings.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Like everyone else in the squad, perhaps outcomes will improve now we've actually got a striker.

KWP is always first choice. I could see a manager switching the other based on the threat, or if Perraud doesn't offer quite as much support if we're playing three at the back(doesn't seem any worse considering how rubbish that is).

Perraud may be unlucky, in that the specific outcomes NJ is looking for are the deep, direct passes from the new Teacher's Pet signing. Rather than getting in at their defence and actually putting the ball into the net. Who would want that, after all? 🙂

[wild-saint]

20 minutes ago, Bakovnetski said:

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/23294224.nathan-jones-provides-explanation-southampton-fc-back-five-failure/

NJ certainly convinced he is never wrong on his tactics and it's always the players that f*ck up. Not sure this will be a happy camp if the season continues in this direction. 

I think he makes a fair point here "We can’t just say ‘okay, we can’t do it’, because if we’re not versatile and we’re not able to do that then we won’t develop as a side. But we were better in a four because we were more aggressive.”

Fans always bang on about managers not having a plan B. They are a squad of intelligent footballers and its not beyond them to learn a new system. Once they nail it then it gives us more options to approach each game and be less predictable. The issue is its taking time when we need points on the board. 

Maybe with the players that have joined in January we will be more suited to playing with 3 CBs and WBs. Whilst it looks a mess at the moment im not adverse to the idea as long as we stay up. 

[stevegrant]

4 minutes ago, wild-saint said:

I think he makes a fair point here "We can’t just say ‘okay, we can’t do it’, because if we’re not versatile and we’re not able to do that then we won’t develop as a side. But we were better in a four because we were more aggressive.”

Fans always bang on about managers not having a plan B. They are a squad of intelligent footballers and its not beyond them to learn a new system. Once they nail it then it gives us more options to approach each game and be less predictable. The issue is its taking time when we need points on the board. 

Maybe with the players that have joined in January we will be more suited to playing with 3 CBs and WBs. Whilst it looks a mess at the moment im not adverse to the idea as long as we stay up. 

Not sure the heat of a relegation battle is really the place to be trying to get players to learn a new system that - if rumours are to be believed - the players hate and even felt strongly enough about it that they raised it with Jones so early in his tenure. Of course we should have flexibility, that seems fairly obvious, but switching so wildly from one system to another every 20 minutes can't do anybody any good.

[aintforever]

11 minutes ago, wild-saint said:

I think he makes a fair point here "We can’t just say ‘okay, we can’t do it’, because if we’re not versatile and we’re not able to do that then we won’t develop as a side. But we were better in a four because we were more aggressive.”

Fans always bang on about managers not having a plan B. They are a squad of intelligent footballers and its not beyond them to learn a new system. Once they nail it then it gives us more options to approach each game and be less predictable. The issue is its taking time when we need points on the board. 

Maybe with the players that have joined in January we will be more suited to playing with 3 CBs and WBs. Whilst it looks a mess at the moment im not adverse to the idea as long as we stay up. 

In my opinion playing three centre backs makes no sense when our best player is a holding midfielder, especially when we are not blessed with brilliant centre backs. It is important to be flexible but there is no reason why 4-2-3-1 can’t be flexible.

[stevegrant]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

In my opinion playing three centre backs makes no sense when our best player is a holding midfielder, especially when we are not blessed with brilliant centre backs. It is important to be flexible but there is no reason why 4-2-3-1 can’t be flexible.

4-3-3 is probably the most flexible of all the "base" formations. You've got the flat 4-3-3, or a 4-1-4-1 where the two wide attackers are wide midfielders and have one sitting behind two 8/10 hybrids, or a 4-2-3-1 where there's two sitting and one 10, or 4-2-1-3 where the wide men are more wide forwards than midfielders. You can even then go for something wild like 2-2-3-3 where the full backs are pushed up so high that they're basically wide midfielders, but you still have wide attackers in front of them.

[trousers]

33 minutes ago, stevegrant said:

Would be interesting to know whose decision it was to not have him on the panel at the Fans Forum. Either it's the club's decision and therefore they know that the fanbase is unhappy and will give him a tough time on live radio, or it's his decision and he doesn't want to have to look paying fans in the eyes and answer some tough questions. Either way, it doesn't reflect especially well.

Indeed, that should be the first question, although no doubt the spin-masters on the panel with have a pre-planned bullshit answer for this one. 

(F**k me, I'm starting to sound as cynical as the pessimism stalwarts on here of late! I'm sure FF will approve... )

[Saint IQ]

3 hours ago, saintscottofthenortham said:

Posting here what I put in the Newcastle 2nd Leg thread re: feedback from one of Che's family members we had in on site...

The lads at work had the pleasure of hosting a close family member of Che's whilst I was up in Newcastle for Tuesday night. Interesting comments he's had to say regarding issues the squad had with Ralph. I'm hearing it second hand, obviously, but it was a far from happy camp.

Problems with Ralph were widespread. No details specifically, but things went bad and were getting worse. Talk of lads going to board level weren't unfounded. The dislike was passionate between some players (no names mentioned), but assumed Che one of them).

Newcastle were in for Che last January before signing Wood. Would've doubled Che's wage, but club held firm and Che didn't kick up fuss.

Leeds came in for him this January. Would've nearly doubled his wage. Club held firm and Che didn't kick up fuss.

No mention of Everton, despite links in press.

Lads really like NJ and are enjoying working under him.

Che hasn't wanted a move, despite chance to earn far more, but he emphasised that Che hates leading a line on his own and knows he can't do it. He hasn't been shy about expressing this.

Most notable thing I took from it was how Che has twice had interest from bigger teams willing to bear double his wage, yet he has stuck to his task when he easily could've forced a move, especially so with where we've been at. He does my head with his finishing (or lack thereof), but tip me hat to him for that.

Expecting him to be back in in the not too distant, so I'll try and have a good chat.

I don't really care if the players hate the manager as long as we win games. Players hated Koeman but the win rate was very high. Players really liking Jones is immaterial if we are losing every game.

[Whitey Grandad]

Of course we were more aggressive with a back four than we were with a back five. I wonder if that's anything to do with having another player further forward.

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, stevegrant said:

And so much of it was completely unnecessary. Almost as soon as he's walked through the door his attitude in interviews and press conferences has been all about covering his own arse. Nothing's his fault or his responsibility, and that was after his first game, seeing as he has already disassociated himself from his actual first game at Liverpool. "They weren't winning many games before I arrived" - note the "they" there.

Let's be honest, most managers arrive at clubs after the previous manager had been sacked, usually for results that were below expectation. And as a result, most new managers attempt to get a fairly unhappy fanbase on-side, even if it's with empty platitudes. Get the fans behind you from the start and you'll get a fair bit of rope. Jones has torn up the playbook and decided that being defensive, narky and downright delusional right from the off is the way that he's going to go about it, and then seems surprised that his attitude, coupled with abject performances and results and no sign of learning from the many selection and tactical mistakes, has led a significant portion of the fanbase to decide that he's not up to it.

As mentioned in an earlier post by someone else, as a fanbase we do generally give new managers a warm welcome and a bit of time to get their feet under the table. For the patience to have lasted so little is on Jones, not the fanbase.

Would be interesting to know whose decision it was to not have him on the panel at the Fans Forum. Either it's the club's decision and therefore they know that the fanbase is unhappy and will give him a tough time on live radio, or it's his decision and he doesn't want to have to look paying fans in the eyes and answer some tough questions. Either way, it doesn't reflect especially well.

I'm not sure I'd necessarily put the spending this month in the "backing the manager" basket - it's entirely plausible that those players (James Bree excepted) would have been on our radar this month anyway given the makeup of the squad and its very obvious deficiencies. Modern clubs don't tend to pander to the manager, it's a bit more flexible so that if the manager leaves for whatever reason, the next guy isn't ripping everything up and wanting to get rid of everyone and make 20 new signings.

I think that's totally fair. As a fan base I think it's widely accepted that we're pretty accepting and we give people (players/staff) a fair crack of the whip before going full 'Everton' on them, but you're right - he's alienated himself from word go.

I had a listen to the Dyche interview today and it's light and day. He's positive, with praise for the previous regime and he then explains the principles he wants to put in place - but it's done in a way that it's not defensive, it's not covering his arse and he's not trying to blame what went on before.

The 'they' comments Jones made so often at the start were unnecessary and in my opinion almost immediately alienated him from the fanbase - he's created the toxicity, we haven't. Now, winning changes everything - if by hook and by crook he gets us winning games, then the opinion polls will almost certainly flip as with the fickle nature of football, but the chances of that seem incredibly slim.

As every fan I want every player and every manager who is associated with us to be a success, I'd never wish ill on anyone - but he's making it incredibly hard to make anyone feel connected to him. Not withstanding 5 league defeats out of 6, which is horrific, his attitude towards the fans has made the entire situation worse.

Edited 2 February, 2023 by S-Clarke

[Roger]

Completely agree with steve. How long do you think they will give jones? 

[FarehamSaintJames]

4 minutes ago, Roger said:

Completely agree with steve. How long do you think they will give jones? 

End of the season.

They shouldn’t though. He should be gone sooner, a better manager will get us better results sooner rather than later.

[S-Clarke]

9 minutes ago, Roger said:

Completely agree with steve. How long do you think they will give jones? 

I don't see him going this season, the club will give him a crack - whether that's right or not. They've kind of made their bed with Jones now so they're going to have to run with it.

'If' we go down then I cannot see any way he stays on for next season, the situation will have become way too toxic and taking that into a new season would be incredibly counterproductive.

Edited 2 February, 2023 by S-Clarke

[grezz]

40 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

he's created the toxicity, we haven't.

He should be more intelligent with his style of communication but no, he didn't create it, we did.

Check out the vote on 'Do you want Jones as our manager' before we'd even kicked a ball under him. The comments there were not positive and whether they will be proven to be true or not, it's pretty toxic to come out with that stuff before he's even started with us, based on the fact he came from Luton and failed at Stoke.

[Saint in Paradise]

I am unable to read that and indeed several others on the Echo website as I am not a subscriber. Having written that however

and after reading others comments I am still of the opinion that Mr Jones should resign before he damages himself even more

and so makes himself unemployable by any other ambitious team in the four Leagues..

[Saintscummer]

Am I the only one getting really bored of this ? 
 

he is the manager. The owners appointed him. They have put their hands in their pockets. 
 

he makes mistakes and he is learning on the job.

 

can we just back him and get right behind the team ? 

[S-Clarke]

8 minutes ago, grezz said:

He should be more intelligent with his style of communication but no, he didn't create it, we did.

Check out the vote on 'Do you want Jones as our manager' before we'd even kicked a ball under him. The comments there were not positive and whether they will be proven to be true or not, it's pretty toxic to come out with that stuff before he's even started with us, based on the fact he came from Luton and failed at Stoke.

Those views were a bit silly at the time, they didn't even give him a chance and no one had even heard him speak at that point. From the people I spoke to the genuine feeling was...''I don't really know a great deal about him, we'll see''. I found that to be the general tone when he was first appointed, so it wasn't toxic really.

The Forest game was the turning point really, he was already starting to rile fans with his defensive comments after Fulham and then went on to oversee one of the worst ever games at SMS - yet it still wasn't his fault. The ground was toxic as hell that night, and most of it was aimed at retaliation to how he was coming across in prior interviews. (not that I agreed with that)

[saintant]

Not trying to fight his corner for him but it's not fair to say we gave him a reasonably warm welcome. News of his appointment was met with a huge amount of negativity not to mention vitriol because of his career record and fans seeing SR as being unambitious. Ok, it's got worse because of results and his comments but let's not make out we rolled out the red carpet for him.

[Saint Garrett]

10 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Those views were a bit silly at the time, they didn't even give him a chance and no one had even heard him speak at that point. From the people I spoke to the genuine feeling was...''I don't really know a great deal about him, we'll see''. I found that to be the general tone when he was first appointed, so it wasn't toxic really.

The Forest game was the turning point really, he was already starting to rile fans with his defensive comments after Fulham and then went on to oversee one of the worst ever games at SMS - yet it still wasn't his fault. The ground was toxic as hell that night, and most of it was aimed at retaliation to how he was coming across in prior interviews. (not that I agreed with that)

It was also his insistence on playing a back 5. The best part of the Brighton game for us was a back 4, we were on top and scored with a back 4 at Fulham, and we’ve been atrocious with a back 5. 

I thought we’d moved on from the back 5 when we went to a back 4 against Palace, City and Everton, but we’re stuck again in this battle of a back 5 which has made us tactically awful. He’s not learning from his mistakes, which is the most infuriating thing. And his football is shit. 

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

2 hours ago, stevegrant said:

And so much of it was completely unnecessary. Almost as soon as he's walked through the door his attitude in interviews and press conferences has been all about covering his own arse. Nothing's his fault or his responsibility, and that was after his first game, seeing as he has already disassociated himself from his actual first game at Liverpool. "They weren't winning many games before I arrived" - note the "they" there.

I guess everyone will remember the last manager who used to refer to us all as "they"? That didn't go well either.

Jones has no humility. It is certainly not hard to dislike him and actually to resent him. I'm still not over the shock of seeing that initial lineup...for a semi final...unforgiveable

 

Edited 2 February, 2023 by Golac's Cunning Stunts

[CanadaSaint]

55 minutes ago, grezz said:

He should be more intelligent with his style of communication but no, he didn't create it, we did.

Check out the vote on 'Do you want Jones as our manager' before we'd even kicked a ball under him. The comments there were not positive and whether they will be proven to be true or not, it's pretty toxic to come out with that stuff before he's even started with us, based on the fact he came from Luton and failed at Stoke.

Absolutely correct. I was appalled to see that.

Frankly I don't think that we or Nathan Jones gave a good account of ourselves at the start, and things have gone downhill from there.

The irony is that we both want the same thing, so it is in ALL of our interests to get pride, ego and obstinacy out of the way and set things on a better footing.

Jones's recent comments about playing a Back 5 and omitting Perraud (to me, the key to a balanced Back 4) - plus the decision to not attend the fan forum - show that he's aware of fan sentiment, which is a start.

Relationships sometimes need a re-set, and I think now would be a very good time for everyone to commit to that. But it's going to "take two to tango". Hopefully the Club can do their part to help him curb his abrasive manner and respond to what the fans want to see, but then we must do our part and throttle back the vitriol.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

57 minutes ago, Saintscummer said:

Am I the only one getting really bored of this ? 
 

he is the manager. The owners appointed him. They have put their hands in their pockets. 
 

he makes mistakes and he is learning on the job.

 

can we just back him and get right behind the team ? 

Am not really sure he is learning anything to be honest. 

[Rivers]

4 hours ago, stevegrant said:

And so much of it was completely unnecessary... [snip] 

Spot on post that. Good to see you add your thoughts on this Steve.

 

1 hour ago, Saintscummer said:

Am I the only one getting really bored of this ? 
 

can we just back him...? 

Most of us it seems, are indeed extremely bored of having to keep addressing his many issues. We shouldn't even have to be discussing this He should never have been appointed in the first place.

Can we just back him?  No. We certainly cannot.

In every single way imaginable, Nathan Jones is simply not the right fit for our Club.

The vast majority of us didn't want him in the first place. And since he was appointed despite our feelings, everything he has done and contines to do since, has only served to confirm our beliefs that he should not be here.

His football is shit. His tactics are shit. He has lost all bar one of our winnable league games. And to top that off, he is proving to be an extremely unlikeable, mouthy and devisive character.

He is giving us absoluetely nothing positve to get behind, and showing zero redeeming features.

There is nothing there to back. 

 

Edited 3 February, 2023 by Rivers
Missed out a word

[Give it to Ron]

5 hours ago, Saintscummer said:

Am I the only one getting really bored of this ? 
 

he is the manager. The owners appointed him. They have put their hands in their pockets. 
 

he makes mistakes and he is learning on the job.

 

can we just back him and get right behind the team ? 

Learning on the job! We were in the bottom 3 when appointed we don’t have time for him to learn on the job. He had 6 weeks over WC to learn and it’s been a shit show.

The fans in games are right behind the team the problem is he doesn’t put the right team out but it’s never his fault.

I’m a ST holder for too many years I back the team always and I’ll back him when he gets results and stops being an utter twat with tactics and selections. Dropping DCC and Lavia, playing Bednarek, Bree and Lyanco in a semi final how can I back him?

[saintscottofthenortham]

Just now, Give it to Ron said:

Learning on the job! We were in the bottom 3 when appointed we don’t have time for him to learn on the job. He had 6 weeks over WC to learn and it’s been a shit show.

The fans in games are right behind the team the problem is he doesn’t put the right team out but it’s never his fault.

I’m a ST holder for too many years I back the team always and I’ll back him when he gets results and stops being an utter twat with tactics and selections. Dropping DCC and Lavia, playing Bednarek, Bree and Lyanco in a semi final how can I back him?

This was an utter madness from NJ, and I still can't believe he done it. I read that team sheet just as I'd got into SJP and had an almighty sinking feeling as we knew immediately the tie was effectively over, if it wasn't already a massive ask.

If Lavia couldn't play both Blackpool and Newcastle, he shouldn't have played Blackpool. Simple as. I was furious when he dropped him for the first leg, and it cost us, I was just as furious when he started against Blackpool and I was lost for words when, again, he was dropped at SJP. It really isn't rocket science, is it?

[Give it to Ron]

1 minute ago, saintscottofthenortham said:

This was an utter madness from NJ, and I still can't believe he done it. I read that team sheet just as I'd got into SJP and had an almighty sinking feeling as we knew immediately the tie was effectively over, if it wasn't already a massive ask.

If Lavia couldn't play both Blackpool and Newcastle, he shouldn't have played Blackpool. Simple as. I was furious when he dropped him for the first leg, and it cost us, I was just as furious when he started against Blackpool and I was lost for words when, again, he was dropped at SJP. It really isn't rocket science, is it?

As soon as I saw the team sheet it was so obvious wasn’t it. 
DCC is our best defender agreed he was guilty for the goal at SMS but you have to look at how often he is in right positions and stops attacks. To play Bednarek and Bree who neither had played before with KWP on the wrong side was madness.

Lyanco was good against Blackpool that’s his level.

[AlexLaw76]

6 hours ago, Saintscummer said:

 

 

can we just back him and get right behind the team ? 

Why?

[Fan The Flames]

Playing a back 5 in the semi final second leg, just because the team must learn an alternative way to play, is inexcusable.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Why?

Because.

[Sarisbury Saint]

8 hours ago, Saintscummer said:

Am I the only one getting really bored of this ? 
 

he is the manager. The owners appointed him. They have put their hands in their pockets. 
 

he makes mistakes and he is learning on the job.

 

can we just back him and get right behind the team ? 

Agreed, unless they sack him now, which they won’t, then we as fans have to support the club and get behind him for any chance of staying up.

I think we’ll improve enough to stay up.

[Mr X]

10 hours ago, grezz said:

He should be more intelligent with his style of communication but no, he didn't create it, we did.

Check out the vote on 'Do you want Jones as our manager' before we'd even kicked a ball under him. The comments there were not positive and whether they will be proven to be true or not, it's pretty toxic to come out with that stuff before he's even started with us, based on the fact he came from Luton and failed at Stoke.

What a load of rubbish giving an opinion on a manager using factual information from his previous jobs and experience isn't "toxic" at all it's common sense 

[Pilchards]

What do you think of Michael Carrick.

Is there a link with Ramos or Wilcox?

 

[Miltonaggro]

13 hours ago, stevegrant said:

And so much of it was completely unnecessary. Almost as soon as he's walked through the door his attitude in interviews and press conferences has been all about covering his own arse. Nothing's his fault or his responsibility, and that was after his first game, seeing as he has already disassociated himself from his actual first game at Liverpool. "They weren't winning many games before I arrived" - note the "they" there.

Let's be honest, most managers arrive at clubs after the previous manager had been sacked, usually for results that were below expectation. And as a result, most new managers attempt to get a fairly unhappy fanbase on-side, even if it's with empty platitudes. Get the fans behind you from the start and you'll get a fair bit of rope. Jones has torn up the playbook and decided that being defensive, narky and downright delusional right from the off is the way that he's going to go about it, and then seems surprised that his attitude, coupled with abject performances and results and no sign of learning from the many selection and tactical mistakes, has led a significant portion of the fanbase to decide that he's not up to it.

As mentioned in an earlier post by someone else, as a fanbase we do generally give new managers a warm welcome and a bit of time to get their feet under the table. For the patience to have lasted so little is on Jones, not the fanbase.

Would be interesting to know whose decision it was to not have him on the panel at the Fans Forum. Either it's the club's decision and therefore they know that the fanbase is unhappy and will give him a tough time on live radio, or it's his decision and he doesn't want to have to look paying fans in the eyes and answer some tough questions. Either way, it doesn't reflect especially well.

I'm not sure I'd necessarily put the spending this month in the "backing the manager" basket - it's entirely plausible that those players (James Bree excepted) would have been on our radar this month anyway given the makeup of the squad and its very obvious deficiencies. Modern clubs don't tend to pander to the manager, it's a bit more flexible so that if the manager leaves for whatever reason, the next guy isn't ripping everything up and wanting to get rid of everyone and make 20 new signings.

Just watched Sean Dyche's first presser for Everton.  As you might imagine totally realistic and pragmatic about both himself and the situation of the club.  Whatever you think of the man a consummate professional and I bet he'll turn them round.  Jones should watch this as part of his 'learning on the job' and much needed self reflection - and SD is at a genuine basket case club in February. 

[hypochondriac]

11 hours ago, grezz said:

He should be more intelligent with his style of communication but no, he didn't create it, we did.

Check out the vote on 'Do you want Jones as our manager' before we'd even kicked a ball under him. The comments there were not positive and whether they will be proven to be true or not, it's pretty toxic to come out with that stuff before he's even started with us, based on the fact he came from Luton and failed at Stoke.

That may have some truth to it but it was his job to come in, prove the fans wrong and then bring everyone together and unite us with a common cause. I don't think anyone could seriously say he's made any attempts to do that. The fact he isn't even showing up at the fans forum speaks volumes IMO. Either he's been told to stay away in which case the club are in the wrong or it's worse and he's decided not to himself. 

[Dman]

19 minutes ago, Pilchards said:

What do you think of Michael Carrick.

Is there a link with Ramos or Wilcox?

 

He’s done a really good job at Boro, all be it in a short space of time. 

Naturally, someone with as little experience as him would be a huge risk, but then again so was Jones and I don’t think it could get any worse. 
 

Personally, if we’re going down the unproven route, If / when we drop, I’d like us to take a hit at Henry. Very highly rated as a coach with the Belgium squad. 

[revolution saint]

42 minutes ago, Pilchards said:

What do you think of Michael Carrick.

Is there a link with Ramos or Wilcox?

 

Don't really know much about him but if we try enough Championship managers then I reckon one of them will probably turn out OK.  Makes sense to start with the least experienced and then work our way up.

[Pengi]

The more I see/read about Jones, the less convinced I become. The Stoke situation is being played out in front of us. It is a pity we didn't get de Zerbi but not many would have thought that Tuchel would be gone so quickly. 

No way will Carrick or Kompany come to us as they may well pass us on the escalator up. Guess Tuchel is out of our league unless we break the bank for him

 

[stevegrant]

20 minutes ago, Dman said:

Personally, if we’re going down the unproven route, If / when we drop, I’d like us to take a hit at Henry. Very highly rated as a coach with the Belgium squad. 

Highly rated as a coach, certainly, but failed miserably in his one actual managerial gig. That would probably imply that he's good at the technical side of things, perhaps less so at the collective tactical angle and/or man-management.

[Pengi]

1 minute ago, stevegrant said:

Highly rated as a coach, certainly, but failed miserably in his one actual managerial gig. That would probably imply that he's good at the technical side of things, perhaps less so at the collective tactical angle and/or man-management.

They need time - look at Arteta when Arsenal were bottom of the league and their fans clamouring for him to leave. But Arteta learned from Guardiola. Who has Jones learned from?

[revolution saint]

1 minute ago, Pengi said:

They need time - look at Arteta when Arsenal were bottom of the league and their fans clamouring for him to leave. But Arteta learned from Guardiola. Who has Jones learned from?

Frank Clark.

[OldNick]

17 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Sorry, it is normal.

The club decided to go left field and recruit someone the entire fan base would not have picked, that guy has got an uphill struggle from day one. Not entirely his fault but he should have known he was not going to get a grace period. Pochettino came in to a similar, maybe more toxic situation. 

If the club had recruited an exciting name - as we did with Koeman and Hasenhuttl - then the fanbase naturally more patient because there's a level of confidence that this guy should come good.

The main difference is all those managerial appointments starting working very very quickly and could build momentum.

What you seem to want is the fanbase to hero worship a bloke who has rocked up from Stoke like he's some Alan Ball type saviour and then when he makes a dreadful start, still treat him like some kind of hero.

He needed to win fans over, like Pochettino did. He hasn't, yet, and he has a hell of a job to do. But that's on him. Not us.

 

Its not normal. Personally I had never heard of Poch or Ralph before he came, and I respectfully suggest that you and many others hadnt either. Koeman if I recall correctly had an indifferent time as a manager, but he did inspire from where he started with nothing.

Im not asking for hero worship, please tell me where I have said that? He also didnt come from Stoke, but did have a poor time there, before returning to Luton.

Again you say I said treat him like a hero, please point us to this other extravagant claim. I have said give the man a chance, and get behind him as eroding the confidence hurts us all. Yes, you are bound to get your petulant way and have him gone, you can then make yourself ready to undermine the next candidate, if it doesnt fit your own personal agenda.

I have to again make myself clear. NJ was not my choice and it was with trepidation that I saw we had hired him, but I felt that the clubs people found Thomas Frank (who again our fanbase would have scorned at that time, not now of course)and we should give him a chance to dig us out of the hole Ralph had left us.

Funnily enough I didnt have to field these posts after the Palace, Man City cup games and away to Everton.

Lets pray that we can get 4 points from the next 2 and things settle, I know we all want that success

 

[nta786]

If it was up to me now I'd give him next 2 games, anything less than 3 points I'd want him gone.

 

[S-Clarke]

This debate reminded me of when Poch came in as manager. We got rid of a well liked guy in Adkins and brought in someone who didn't speak English, there was talk of protests and chants in his first home game etc, which kind of didn't materialise but the point i'm trying to make is that his football/results turned around the feeling, almost immediately. The first game against Everton was a total change up, you could see what we were trying to do even though it was just a draw. The inevitable upturn came after that.

With Jones, he had similar opinions before he started here. No one wanted him, people against him before he'd started etc. But rather than turn that view around by managing, he has managed to solidify that view by losing games, not having any identify and critising the fan base. That's why he's making it toxic.

[Huffton]

Face it, he isn't going anywhere. IF Semmens/Ankersen/SR honestly think we won't be too badly financially effected if we go down then they have played a blinder. If he keeps us up (lol) then all well and good, if (when) we go down they already have an experienced Championship manager in place for a promotion push. The board have played a (cheap) blinder🙄

[Lee On Solent Saint]

3 minutes ago, Huffton said:

Face it, he isn't going anywhere. IF Semmens/Ankersen/SR honestly think we won't be too badly financially effected if we go down then they have played a blinder. If he keeps us up (lol) then all well and good, if (when) we go down they already have an experienced Championship manager in place for a promotion push. The board have played a (cheap) blinder🙄

If he takes us down, there is absolutely no way he should remain as manager. He would have had over half a season to have kept us up. If he fails at that, he needs to go.