Saints 1-3 Brighton - Match Thread

[StrangelyBrown]

Having had 24 hours to calm down and be more objective about yesterday's performance I'm genuinely worried.

While I understand the opinions that our team aren't great actually I think we could have put out an 11 that could have competed with Brighton - they're a decent well organised side, but hardly the pinnacle of the premier league, but sadly we had 4 or 5 players in the starting 11 who shouldn't be anywhere near our first team. To me this suggests NJ hasn't got a clue what he's doing. The numerous tactical changes also backed up the lack of any sort of plan - almost like he was making it up as he goes along. To think this level of cluelessness was preceded by 6 weeks of intense preparation.

NJ's interview after the game was most worrying - he looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights, almost in tears, admitting that the players weren't following his instructions and offering very little to suggest things are going to get better. After 6 weeks he should have been able to get one game playing his way from the players. It looks like he hasn't been able to get the players onside.

I had hoped for a small glimmer of hope, some evidence of a plan or a change in a positive direction. Sadly now I'd welcome Ralph back to save the day (which is something I'd thought I'd never say).

[disconnect]

For me, he picked a different team to what we’d seen fail previously, and it didn’t work, but at least he mixed it up a bit.

A start for Edozie was welcome and he generally played well, and that was a positive. On the other hand, I would never play Lyanco over Bella-Kotchap, and if ABK is not trusted, it’s got to be Caleta Car next up. I thought Lyanco was ok yesterday, but he doesn’t have the positional discipline without 2 others with him (and I hate the 3 / 5 at the back).

One thing I’ve noticed this season is KWP has been an absolute shadow of last few seasons - barely getting forward / attacking at all. There was a point where every game he was in our top 3 or 4 performers, but this season has been pretty anonymous. That coupled with a drop off of JWP, and that’s 2 of our most consistent and senior players form seemingly dropping off a cliff, almost as if they didn’t want to go to the World Cup (obviously KWP was injured).

The real killer of the season though is the lack of a good striker - we’re still desperate for an Ings replacement to play off / with Adams. Adams is very good at winning the ball back and breaking forward but has never been a good finisher, and we don’t create anywhere near enough to have him as our main goal scorer. A Armstrong hasn’t worked and needs to be moved on, and a proper finisher brought in. How many chances that have fallen to Armstrong, Adams or another would’ve been buried by Ings? A few of those misses turning to goals and everything would be far rosier and a few of those defeats would’ve been wins or draws and it’s a different picture. 
It feels like the fan base have written off the season which seems ridiculous when only 2 points away from West Ham in 16th, and only a couple more back from Bournemouth in 14th, and over 20 games to play! Plenty to play for, let’s get behind them and hopefully see Jones bringing an upturn in form in the near future!!

[Mr X]

10 hours ago, StrangelyBrown said:

Having had 24 hours to calm down and be more objective about yesterday's performance I'm genuinely worried.

While I understand the opinions that our team aren't great actually I think we could have put out an 11 that could have competed with Brighton - they're a decent well organised side, but hardly the pinnacle of the premier league, but sadly we had 4 or 5 players in the starting 11 who shouldn't be anywhere near our first team. To me this suggests NJ hasn't got a clue what he's doing. The numerous tactical changes also backed up the lack of any sort of plan - almost like he was making it up as he goes along. To think this level of cluelessness was preceded by 6 weeks of intense preparation.

NJ's interview after the game was most worrying - he looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights, almost in tears, admitting that the players weren't following his instructions and offering very little to suggest things are going to get better. After 6 weeks he should have been able to get one game playing his way from the players. It looks like he hasn't been able to get the players onside.

I had hoped for a small glimmer of hope, some evidence of a plan or a change in a positive direction. Sadly now I'd welcome Ralph back to save the day (which is something I'd thought I'd never say).

And how exactly is Ralph going to "save the day" as you put it? 

[StrangelyBrown]

53 minutes ago, Mr X said:

And how exactly is Ralph going to "save the day" as you put it? 

He clearly isn't, but with him in charge doing what he had been doing I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have lost to Brighton and we would grind a win or two out of the next two games - but it would be painful watching.

With Jones in charge I'm doubtful we'll get any points out of the next 2 which are games we simply have to get points from if we want to stay up.

[Mr X]

4 minutes ago, StrangelyBrown said:

He clearly isn't, but with him in charge doing what he had been doing I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have lost to Brighton and we would grind a win or two out of the next two games - but it would be painful watching.

With Jones in charge I'm doubtful we'll get any points out of the next 2 which are games we simply have to get points from if we want to stay up.

Save the day was probably the wrong wording then but yeah I agree we are looking like we aren't going to survive under Jones but we weren't going to survive under Ralph either as he had a run of like two wins in 20 odd games and both he and the players had lost faith. After Ralph it was sooooo important to get it right, It beggars belief that they got the most important managerial appointment so disastrously wrong like off the scale wrong! 

[Miltonaggro]

17 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Save the day was probably the wrong wording then but yeah I agree we are looking like we aren't going to survive under Jones but we weren't going to survive under Ralph either as he had a run of like two wins in 20 odd games and both he and the players had lost faith. After Ralph it was sooooo important to get it right, It beggars belief that they got the most important managerial appointment so disastrously wrong like off the scale wrong! 

Watch them compound it in the transfer window! 

[SotonianWill]

36 minutes ago, StrangelyBrown said:

He clearly isn't, but with him in charge doing what he had been doing I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have lost to Brighton and we would grind a win or two out of the next two games - but it would be painful watching.

With Jones in charge I'm doubtful we'll get any points out of the next 2 which are games we simply have to get points from if we want to stay up.

With Ralph in charge it was obvious we would pick up results eventually (we always come good december/january) if we played 4,2,2,2 with the tactics we had played for 3 and a bit years. 

Sadly the tactic in full was seemingly ditched and even under ralph we changed to passing round the back then hoofing it up to Che this season. So he would never have saved us and would not “save the day”, unless of course it was with his previous tactic in use.

[S-Clarke]

4 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

With Ralph in charge it was obvious we would pick up results eventually (we always come good december/january) if we played 4,2,2,2 with the tactics we had played for 3 and a bit years. 

Sadly the tactic in full was seemingly ditched and even under ralph we changed to passing round the back then hoofing it up to Che this season. So he would never have saved us and would not “save the day”, unless of course it was with his previous tactic in use.

This is what confuses me a little bit, the way we have played over previous years hasn't been consistent and we've had some horrendous runs, but there were always periods where we'd pickup and go again.

We totally dumped that approach this season in favour of long ball. We are certainly more long ball than we have been for many years, and that seems to be the only tactic we have. Sadly when Adams is the focal point then we might as well just give the ball back to their GK every time to save his energy. 

A really peculiar change in approach given that we have no one suitable in the team to support that sort of game.

[Chez]

35 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

This is what confuses me a little bit, the way we have played over previous years hasn't been consistent and we've had some horrendous runs, but there were always periods where we'd pickup and go again.

We totally dumped that approach this season in favour of long ball. We are certainly more long ball than we have been for many years, and that seems to be the only tactic we have. Sadly when Adams is the focal point then we might as well just give the ball back to their GK every time to save his energy. 

A really peculiar change in approach given that we have no one suitable in the team to support that sort of game.

maybe it wasn't a change of tactic, it was just having shitter players, unable to keep and dominate possession that has lead to the ball being played longer more often.  

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, Chez said:

maybe it wasn't a change of tactic, it was just having shitter players, unable to keep and dominate possession that has lead to the ball being played longer more often.  

Nobody seems to be able to explain the 4-0 collapse at Villa which came during a very good spell of form. It came out of the blue and, for whatever reason, we never recovered.

[LGTL]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

Nobody seems to be able to explain the 4-0 collapse at Villa which came during a very good spell of form. It came out of the blue and, for whatever reason, we never recovered.

Coutinho absolutely destroyed us that day. His one and only good performance for Villa by all accounts. 

[saintant]

48 minutes ago, LGTL said:

Coutinho absolutely destroyed us that day. His one and only good performance for Villa by all accounts. 

Ok,but what happened to our team after that? Surely Coutinho didn't destroy everything we'd built in one game.

[East Kent Saint]

37 minutes ago, saintant said:

Ok,but what happened to our team after that? Surely Coutinho didn't destroy everything we'd built in one game.

Villa ready to move him on apparently , not sure he would be the player that went to Liverpool rather than us last time .

[Saint86]

I thought of two other silver linings to the brighton game... 

1.) It was only 3-1, our GD could well be important. 

2.) it might actually be beneficial that the team put in such a shit performance before the window opens - should focus minds significantly. 

No need to thank me for cheering you all up with that positive non xG related insight, we're all in this together... 😇

Edited 28 December, 2022 by Saint86

[suewhistle]

4 hours ago, Chez said:

maybe it wasn't a change of tactic, it was just having shitter players, unable to keep and dominate possession that has lead to the ball being played longer more often.  

I suspect there is a lot in this. We are all pondering on the solution and we undoubtedly need a striker who can finish and take some of the focus off Adams, but maybe the vulnerability of our defence recently has been more down to our inadequate midfield. Sometimes I think JWP is trying to do too much. A coach I once knew pointed out how players "hide" on the pitch and he certainly isn't doing that, but his efforts to always be available, the amount of running he does to cover and defend I think are making him less effective and wearing him out, leading to examples like the poor closing down of March against Brighton. Perhaps the return of Lavia will be crucial as Diallo is obviously not the answer.

We need more pace and bite in midfield, and although Elyounoussi is another one you can't fault for effort he always arrives late at situations.

Accurate long balls to players in space, or even to a target man with support in close attendance can work, but we are doing neither.

Edit: I've just seen S-Clarke's post on the JWP thread who was saying exactly what I feel: he needs better support.

Edited 28 December, 2022 by suewhistle
extra

[miserableoldgit]

I think that the biggest frustration for me was the way that Brighton were playing out from the goalkeeper, tippy-tapping it between themselves whilst Saints players just chased shadows.....it was like toddlers trying to get the ball off grown men......and they weren't even that good at it!

[SotonianWill]

1 minute ago, miserableoldgit said:

I think that the biggest frustration for me was the way that Brighton were playing out from the goalkeeper, tippy-tapping it between themselves whilst Saints players just chased shadows.....it was like toddlers trying to get the ball off grown men......and they weren't even that good at it!

saints gave up closing them down after a while, then you could see Brighton late on cheering as they close down our defender for a throw in. simple margins that are down to effort by players. 

[The Cat]

33 minutes ago, miserableoldgit said:

I think that the biggest frustration for me was the way that Brighton were playing out from the goalkeeper, tippy-tapping it between themselves whilst Saints players just chased shadows.....it was like toddlers trying to get the ball off grown men......and they weren't even that good at it!

I think that if we'd pressed in a cohesive way it could have worked. The few times we bothered doing it they didn't look that comfortable, especially in the second half when passing back to Sanchez who is very Forster like with his feet. A few times he booted it straight to us or did a miss kick.

For some reason we stopped doing it after they passed it through the press, but that's always going to happen at some point.

[Chez]

20 hours ago, suewhistle said:

his efforts to always be available, the amount of running he does to cover and defend I think are making him less effective and wearing him out, leading to examples like the poor closing down of March against Brighton. Perhaps the return of Lavia will be crucial as Diallo is obviously not the answer.

We need more pace and bite in midfield, and although Elyounoussi is another one you can't fault for effort he always arrives late at situations.

JWP can't keep up with March. No surprise there. It's always been his achilles heal; slow to cover the ground. However, for me it's Aribo that fucks us. If he comes out and attacks the ball and makes a challenge rather than just standing there watching, the third goal possibly doesn't happen.

I agree with you though. If we are to turn things around we need more bite, more physicality, more pressure on the ball, more intensity - especially in midfield and players like Diallo just do not cut it.

We need a Kalvin Phillips type that is going to make life difficult for opponents and the rest of the side to follow his lead. Diallo, Aribo, Ely and JWP (and others) just do not get close enough for opponents to force them into making mistakes. That has to change otherwise we will be chasing shadows and games until we go down.

We desperately need more quality in midfield and throughout the side, but adding that quality is tough, takes a lot of money and time. Obviously we should look to do that, but in the mean time upping the work rate and defensive intensity is a good place to start with the current players.

Edited 29 December, 2022 by Chez

[Chez]

1 hour ago, miserableoldgit said:

I think that the biggest frustration for me was the way that Brighton were playing out from the goalkeeper, tippy-tapping it between themselves whilst Saints players just chased shadows.....it was like toddlers trying to get the ball off grown men......and they weren't even that good at it!

our press is pretty much non existent. It's so easy to beat. Two or three passes and Brighton got between the lines. It happened from minute one. We just don't seem to know what we are doing or have players able/willing/fit enough to get tight enough to make an impact. 

[captainchris]

On 28/12/2022 at 15:29, suewhistle said:

I suspect there is a lot in this. We are all pondering on the solution and we undoubtedly need a striker who can finish and take some of the focus off Adams, but maybe the vulnerability of our defence recently has been more down to our inadequate midfield. Sometimes I think JWP is trying to do too much. A coach I once knew pointed out how players "hide" on the pitch and he certainly isn't doing that, but his efforts to always be available, the amount of running he does to cover and defend I think are making him less effective and wearing him out, leading to examples like the poor closing down of March against Brighton. Perhaps the return of Lavia will be crucial as Diallo is obviously not the answer.

We need more pace and bite in midfield, and although Elyounoussi is another one you can't fault for effort he always arrives late at situations.

Accurate long balls to players in space, or even to a target man with support in close attendance can work, but we are doing neither.

Edit: I've just seen S-Clarke's post on the JWP thread who was saying exactly what I feel: he needs better support.

 ‘Can’t fault Elyounoussi for effort’ This is a complete fallacy, he is lazy and never closes down properly. He badly affected the press in the Brighton game by not getting close enough to their back line and allowing Brighton to play out every time.

Watch Ely closely and you will see he is not engaging the opposition effectively and we are mostly carrying him. The way he constantly finds time to tell his team mates what to do when he himself is pretty clueless is ironic to say the least…