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Saints 1-3 Brighton - Match Thread


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Awful performance, but too soon to begin calling for Jones out.  We will have a better view of him by end of January, after six or seven games and the transfer window.  The problems are the same problems we had, which is why we are bottom of the league.

We will need to pay over the top for players in January, and it won’t be easy to attract quality sat in the drop zone. Worrying times ahead.  Things can change quickly and we play a number of teams who I think will be in and around the drop zone in the coming weeks.

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1 hour ago, woodsaint1 said:

Further proof if needed that XG is an absolute nonsense stat

Where on earth do they get that from? Can't remember a single meaningful shot or chance. I remember AA missing an absolute sitter last seasons and it only being 0.35 xG. Were they counting the shots on our own goal?

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1 hour ago, OttawaSaint said:

Where on earth do they get that from? Can't remember a single meaningful shot or chance. I remember AA missing an absolute sitter last seasons and it only being 0.35 xG. Were they counting the shots on our own goal?

I would assume both JWP shots are counted here, so both the penalty and the free header would have a high xG

 

but overall we did have 14 shots to 7, and their first goal should’ve been saved, their second didn’t come from a shot and their third would’ve been very low xG

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35 minutes ago, MAY-Z said:

I would assume both JWP shots are counted here, so both the penalty and the free header would have a high xG

 

but overall we did have 14 shots to 7, and their first goal should’ve been saved, their second didn’t come from a shot and their third would’ve been very low xG

Ah that makes sense. I'd actually completely forgotten that we'd scored.

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8 hours ago, Forester said:

Awful performance, but too soon to begin calling for Jones out.  We will have a better view of him by end of January, after six or seven games and the transfer window.  The problems are the same problems we had, which is why we are bottom of the league.

We will need to pay over the top for players in January, and it won’t be easy to attract quality sat in the drop zone. Worrying times ahead.  Things can change quickly and we play a number of teams who I think will be in and around the drop zone in the coming weeks.

With respect we simply do not have that time. I know this sounds utterly insane but needs must. 
I would place NJ on some sort of gardening leave. I would bring in Sean Dyche on a 6 month contract. Hope he could bring in Woods from Newcastle and a midfielder who leads on the pitch. Should he fail to save us come May, then we regroup and reappoint Jones who could probably do a decent job for us in the Championship. I know this is an extreme position to take but the writing is oh so clear on the wall and drastic action has got to be taken by SR before it’s too late. Every day that passes we are edging inexorably towards the precipice. Jones sadly was not what this club needed 2 months ago. Really feel for the bloke as he must be waking up this morning to the realisation of the impossible task he was given. 

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1 hour ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

With respect we simply do not have that time. I know this sounds utterly insane but needs must. 
I would place NJ on some sort of gardening leave. I would bring in Sean Dyche on a 6 month contract. Hope he could bring in Woods from Newcastle and a midfielder who leads on the pitch. Should he fail to save us come May, then we regroup and reappoint Jones who could probably do a decent job for us in the Championship. I know this is an extreme position to take but the writing is oh so clear on the wall and drastic action has got to be taken by SR before it’s too late. Every day that passes we are edging inexorably towards the precipice. Jones sadly was not what this club needed 2 months ago. Really feel for the bloke as he must be waking up this morning to the realisation of the impossible task he was given. 

That's a bit extreme and I doubt Dyche would have been able to make much of difference with the squad as it is.

Jones clearly has a system he wants to play. Feels a bit direct for my tastes but so what.

The issue is that he doesn't have the players available to play that system,  or any I suspect.

MOTD was grim viewing, and their comments were simple and to the point.

Can and must do better.

 

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12 minutes ago, macca155 said:

That's a bit extreme and I doubt Dyche would have been able to make much of difference with the squad as it is.

Jones clearly has a system he wants to play. Feels a bit direct for my tastes but so what.

The issue is that he doesn't have the players available to play that system,  or any I suspect.

MOTD was grim viewing, and their comments were simple and to the point.

Can and must do better.

 

Playing direct requires some big lumps in the team, upfront for in play long balls and elsewhere for set pieces.

Adams is a strong player and can hold the ball up as best he can on his own but we don’t have the physicality in the team to make it our game plan.

If that is Jones tactics for the rest of the season then we are truly f*cked.

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What on earth is up with JWP? The way he let March breeze past him reminds me of myself chasing shadows at 5 a side. Is he unfit/overweight?

Edozie a bright spark but like many of his predecessors, his end product is just gash.

Adams is a tryer, I really like him but his return won't be anywhere near enough to keep us up.

Diallo is just a waste of space, he was a total ghost out there.

Even KWP was shite.

Perraud seems unable to get into match shape, let's hope he got a treadmill for Christmas.

Don't need to mention the Angus Gunn tribute act in goal.

Lyanco a tryer too, but unfortunately just really crap.

Djenepo a tryer but cannot pass, run, shoot, or even dribble sometimes - who on earth scouted him?

Can't see any other outcome but relegation.

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9 hours ago, woodsaint1 said:

Further proof if needed that XG is an absolute nonsense stat

The JWP header is a clear 1.0 on the xG stats (or near enough), and we had several other chances that would have pushed us over 2 - not least a couple of decent attacks soon after half time. We had 14 shots yesterday, 4 on target 🙄. As before, our finishing is horrendous. 

If anything you've just highlighted the value of xG as a stasticial viewpoint over supporter perception. Nice one 😜

Brighton's 0.91 total really does highlight what a horror show we had at the back for the first 2 goals yesterday, plus ofc a very tidy long range strike. Time to give bazunu a break surely? And we really cannot be dropping ABK for lyanco!

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Can't score, can't defend, can't press. A captain that doesn't captain and a manager that hasn't convinced the senior pros he knows what he's doing. A truly awful performance against a team that was light years ahead of us in terms of quickness, control and speed of thought. Nailed on relegation form.

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1 hour ago, Give it to Ron said:

What I don’t get is we gave them so much room and never got close - none of our coaches or players could see that.

Messiah Ralph was the same in many games why can’t they see it even Tyro managers coach that.

This was blatant, you are correct…. 

Coaching obviously non existent. The worse culprit being Elyanousi… 
players who continually blame team mates for everything on the pitch are usually the poorest themselves, he being a case in point. 

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That was fucking dreadful, but a neutral might observe that sections of the crowd booing at the first individual error after 15 minutes told us more about those fans than it did about the keeper.

Let's just step back from the wreckage and look at it from the manager's point of view - he's inherited a crap squad with zero confidence, and even the 'better' players were lost souls.

After weeks of training and players talking the talk, he needed to see the squad stress-tested in game conditions, and blimey, he's just learned a lot of lessons in a week.

Now he can go to the board with an emergency shopping list, but he must be given some time, even though we don't have much, because this is not his team, he's been given half a bucket of trade magnolia and people are expecting the Sistine Chapel ceiling in 15 minutes.

Now, if he is still generating performances like that in a few weeks, then he can own it, and his appointment will have been a mistake.

Hopefully he saw what we saw and he acts on it, rather than repeating mistakes on loop, in the style of the previous regime.

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14 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

That was fucking dreadful, but a neutral might observe that sections of the crowd booing at the first individual error after 15 minutes told us more about those fans than it did about the keeper.

Let's just step back from the wreckage and look at it from the manager's point of view - he's inherited a crap squad with zero confidence, and even the 'better' players were lost souls.

After weeks of training and players talking the talk, he needed to see the squad stress-tested in game conditions, and blimey, he's just learned a lot of lessons in a week.

Now he can go to the board with an emergency shopping list, but he must be given some time, even though we don't have much, because this is not his team, he's been given half a bucket of trade magnolia and people are expecting the Sistine Chapel ceiling in 15 minutes.

Now, if he is still generating performances like that in a few weeks, then he can own it, and his appointment will have been a mistake.

Hopefully he saw what we saw and he acts on it, rather than repeating mistakes on loop, in the style of the previous regime.

But the point is NJ has the same squad as Ralph but, despite 8 weeks (2 of which he chose to waste) to work on things we look far worse than ever. Fans are entitled to expect to have seen some progress if Jones really is the man to get us out of the mire - the shitshow he produced leaves more questions than answers and fans are rightly very concerned. We needed to see some improvements but saw the polar opposite.

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13 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

That was fucking dreadful, but a neutral might observe that sections of the crowd booing at the first individual error after 15 minutes told us more about those fans than it did about the keeper.

Let's just step back from the wreckage and look at it from the manager's point of view - he's inherited a crap squad with zero confidence, and even the 'better' players were lost souls.

After weeks of training and players talking the talk, he needed to see the squad stress-tested in game conditions, and blimey, he's just learned a lot of lessons in a week.

Now he can go to the board with an emergency shopping list, but he must be given some time, even though we don't have much, because this is not his team, he's been given half a bucket of trade magnolia and people are expecting the Sistine Chapel ceiling in 15 minutes.

Now, if he is still generating performances like that in a few weeks, then he can own it, and his appointment will have been a mistake.

Hopefully he saw what we saw and he acts on it, rather than repeating mistakes on loop, in the style of the previous regime.

I get what you are saying, but I just don't think he has the ability to turn it around. I didn't go yesterday, but did go to the Lincoln game and that was awful against a League 1 team. I can only see this ending in relegation. I know the squad lacks any real quality, but I believe a manager like Benetiz would have enough about them to make sure we stayed up. At the very least we would have a game plan and some organisation.

 

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26 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

That was fucking dreadful, but a neutral might observe that sections of the crowd booing at the first individual error after 15 minutes told us more about those fans than it did about the keeper.

Let's just step back from the wreckage and look at it from the manager's point of view - he's inherited a crap squad with zero confidence, and even the 'better' players were lost souls.

After weeks of training and players talking the talk, he needed to see the squad stress-tested in game conditions, and blimey, he's just learned a lot of lessons in a week.

Now he can go to the board with an emergency shopping list, but he must be given some time, even though we don't have much, because this is not his team, he's been given half a bucket of trade magnolia and people are expecting the Sistine Chapel ceiling in 15 minutes.

Now, if he is still generating performances like that in a few weeks, then he can own it, and his appointment will have been a mistake.

Hopefully he saw what we saw and he acts on it, rather than repeating mistakes on loop, in the style of the previous regime.

I'd like a loud passionate crowd getting behind the team but let's face it we've been terrible at home for a few years now, fans have reached the point where they have had enough and will boo easily. I actually think our fan base has been patient and not turned on the club as much as others would. 

Fans hoped for a new manager bounce, we haven't got one and chances of survival look bleak. 

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22 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

That was fucking dreadful, but a neutral might observe that sections of the crowd booing at the first individual error after 15 minutes told us more about those fans than it did about the keeper.

Let's just step back from the wreckage and look at it from the manager's point of view - he's inherited a crap squad with zero confidence, and even the 'better' players were lost souls.

After weeks of training and players talking the talk, he needed to see the squad stress-tested in game conditions, and blimey, he's just learned a lot of lessons in a week.

Now he can go to the board with an emergency shopping list, but he must be given some time, even though we don't have much, because this is not his team, he's been given half a bucket of trade magnolia and people are expecting the Sistine Chapel ceiling in 15 minutes.

Now, if he is still generating performances like that in a few weeks, then he can own it, and his appointment will have been a mistake.

Hopefully he saw what we saw and he acts on it, rather than repeating mistakes on loop, in the style of the previous regime.

I get that it’s not a great squad, but that doesn’t excuse lack of organisation or energy. 
I’m sorry, but even a fit and together L1 team would have defended better and put in a proper shift and not given that Brighton side the time to do whatever it wanted. That’s not down to premier league quality, that’s down to work ethic and organisation. 
One of the most worrying things for me was this the lack of both….at least if they were both organised and (seemingly) gave a toss I wouldn’t be quite so angry this morning.

Looked like a side not sure what they were doing, and probably not buying into what they’re being asked to do. 
It’ll be hard to watch if we simply throw our PL status away, especially given that there are quite a few really quite poor teams around us this season.

 

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1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

It seems Jones is just a long ball merchant.  That being the case, Sean Dyche would have been a better choice.

I am staggered that after a prolonged period with the squad, he picks that side and tactically we look all over the place.

I’d have been happy with Dyche, but my suspicion is that any manager we hired would be a proxy manager for Rasmus Hipster-son, Dyche wouldn’t have worn that, nor would any other self respecting top tier manager, which is probably why we went the route we did.

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3 hours ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

With respect we simply do not have that time. I know this sounds utterly insane but needs must. 
I would place NJ on some sort of gardening leave. I would bring in Sean Dyche on a 6 month contract. Hope he could bring in Woods from Newcastle and a midfielder who leads on the pitch. Should he fail to save us come May, then we regroup and reappoint Jones who could probably do a decent job for us in the Championship. I know this is an extreme position to take but the writing is oh so clear on the wall and drastic action has got to be taken by SR before it’s too late. Every day that passes we are edging inexorably towards the precipice. Jones sadly was not what this club needed 2 months ago. Really feel for the bloke as he must be waking up this morning to the realisation of the impossible task he was given. 

Firstly I understand the alarm, and if you look back at my posts I was advocating Ralph being sacked after Brentford game last season and replacing with Cooper, Dyche or Benitez.  The first one became unavailable, and I argued for one of the other two when Ralph was in exit lounge.

However, if we put aside emotion (never easy!) we have had one Premier League shite performance under Jones (Anfield second half was decent).  We need to consider what it says about us as a club for aspiring future managers to hit panic button that quickly.  And on the specific proposal you make, it is not credible to reinstate Jones in championship as he would be stripped of any respect from players if placed on gardening leave.

The uncomfortable facts are that our squad lacks quality and experience right now, and at the start of the season I had us in a bottom seven with Brentford, Leeds, Everton, Forest, Fulham and Bournemouth.  Fulham and Brentford look like they will get clear of trouble, albeit Wet Spam have been dragged in.  I think Wolves will climb away easily.  With three games still to go until halfway just four points separate the sides I have listed and our next three games are Fulham, Forest and Everton.  That is why I am saying we need to wait until late Jan, while accepting that it is scary.

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19 minutes ago, saintant said:

But the point is NJ has the same squad as Ralph but, despite 8 weeks (2 of which he chose to waste) to work on things we look far worse than ever. Fans are entitled to expect to have seen some progress if Jones really is the man to get us out of the mire - the shitshow he produced leaves more questions than answers and fans are rightly very concerned. We needed to see some improvements but saw the polar opposite.

Initially I though the World Cup break was a godsend, but in reality it went the other way, all he saw was who shone in training and low key friendlies, he didn’t know what we do, now he does. The break was completely mismanaged, as has been everything else.

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1 minute ago, Toussaint said:

Initially I though the World Cup break was a godsend, but in reality it went the other way, all he saw was who shone in training and low key friendlies, he didn’t know what we do, now he does. 

Prowse & Diallo probably look great in training & friendlies good touch, vision, drifting into decent positions. But when the muck and bullets are flying around they’re soft as shite. Same with a few of them. 

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You don't have to be a multi millionaire Premier manager to work it out. Pick the wrong team with no pace, discipline, shape or blend and the ratshit display is the result. Elyonoussie is a showboater lacking determination, steel and the courage to compete. Diallo has no idea, likewise Djenepo. Lyanco is another case of paying a budget fee for an ill disciplined, off the cuff defender that dives in, gets dragged out of position and drops his team in it with rash forward runs often losing the ball. We have better players than those like Stuart Armstrong not being picked.

Those four players in the team were enough to destroy any chance of a providing a cohesive team against a cohesive team that couldn't believe their luck. The two full backs playing kamikaze football left acres of space behind them to be exploited. Neither play a disciplined defensive game. There is no chance of clean sheets. The defenders have to first and foremost defend. We aren't good enough to think of playing both full backs like wingers. JWP trotted along tracking March too far away, We need to defend in groups getting tight, snapping into the opponent with the ball, We were isolated and bypassed with no effort because we didn't defend as a team. It's all very well getting goal side but we need to recover the ball quickly as Guardiola's Manchester City and Barcelona sides did.

The simple fact is the team selection was awful. We are not going to win another game unless we become a ball winning team all over the pitch. Dropping back without pressing hard doesn't cut it.

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1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

The JWP header is a clear 1.0 on the xG stats (or near enough), and we had several other chances that would have pushed us over 2 - not least a couple of decent attacks soon after half time. We had 14 shots yesterday, 4 on target 🙄. As before, our finishing is horrendous. 

If anything you've just highlighted the value of xG as a stasticial viewpoint over supporter perception. Nice one 😜

Brighton's 0.91 total really does highlight what a horror show we had at the back for the first 2 goals yesterday, plus ofc a very tidy long range strike. Time to give bazunu a break surely? And we really cannot be dropping ABK for lyanco!

Think it just proves that xG is nothing but an anorak’s wet dream and a total crock of absolute shite.

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1 hour ago, SambaMaverick said:

What on earth is up with JWP? The way he let March breeze past him reminds me of myself chasing shadows at 5 a side. Is he unfit/overweight?

Edozie a bright spark but like many of his predecessors, his end product is just gash.

Adams is a tryer, I really like him but his return won't be anywhere near enough to keep us up.

Diallo is just a waste of space, he was a total ghost out there.

Even KWP was shite.

Perraud seems unable to get into match shape, let's hope he got a treadmill for Christmas.

Don't need to mention the Angus Gunn tribute act in goal.

Lyanco a tryer too, but unfortunately just really crap.

Djenepo a tryer but cannot pass, run, shoot, or even dribble sometimes - who on earth scouted him?

Can't see any other outcome but relegation.

Yeah but apart from that?

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2 hours ago, rallyboy said:

That was fucking dreadful, but a neutral might observe that sections of the crowd booing at the first individual error after 15 minutes told us more about those fans than it did about the keeper.

Let's just step back from the wreckage and look at it from the manager's point of view - he's inherited a crap squad with zero confidence, and even the 'better' players were lost souls.

After weeks of training and players talking the talk, he needed to see the squad stress-tested in game conditions, and blimey, he's just learned a lot of lessons in a week.

Now he can go to the board with an emergency shopping list, but he must be given some time, even though we don't have much, because this is not his team, he's been given half a bucket of trade magnolia and people are expecting the Sistine Chapel ceiling in 15 minutes.

Now, if he is still generating performances like that in a few weeks, then he can own it, and his appointment will have been a mistake.

Hopefully he saw what we saw and he acts on it, rather than repeating mistakes on loop, in the style of the previous regime.

He had more than enough time to see the team stress tested by watching endless videos of shit performances. There was absolutely no indication in the Brighton performance of even the slightest of improvement in any department with that display.

A seasoned top flight manager would of at least picked up on the most obvious flaws and made some sort of adjustment and improvement, but there were none whatsoever in that performance and not even the new manager bounce.

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1 hour ago, derry said:

You don't have to be a multi millionaire Premier manager to work it out. Pick the wrong team with no pace, discipline, shape or blend and the ratshit display is the result. Elyonoussie is a showboater lacking determination, steel and the courage to compete. Diallo has no idea, likewise Djenepo. Lyanco is another case of paying a budget fee for an ill disciplined, off the cuff defender that dives in, gets dragged out of position and drops his team in it with rash forward runs often losing the ball. We have better players than those like Stuart Armstrong not being picked.

Those four players in the team were enough to destroy any chance of a providing a cohesive team against a cohesive team that couldn't believe their luck. The two full backs playing kamikaze football left acres of space behind them to be exploited. Neither play a disciplined defensive game. There is no chance of clean sheets. The defenders have to first and foremost defend. We aren't good enough to think of playing both full backs like wingers. JWP trotted along tracking March too far away, We need to defend in groups getting tight, snapping into the opponent with the ball, We were isolated and bypassed with no effort because we didn't defend as a team. It's all very well getting goal side but we need to recover the ball quickly as Guardiola's Manchester City and Barcelona sides did.

The simple fact is the team selection was awful. We are not going to win another game unless we become a ball winning team all over the pitch. Dropping back without pressing hard doesn't cut it.

100% this. Very worrying that this assessment feels lightyears ahead of what the manager might be able to put together.

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I haven't read this thread as I often find the post-match meltdowns even more depressing and unreasonable than watching the game. Suffice to say that for once I'd probably agree with everybody: that was unremittingly dire and I really haven't got the time or emotional energy to go into more detail.

The crowd for the City game is going to be mainly City fans!

 

 

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3 hours ago, rallyboy said:

That was fucking dreadful, but a neutral might observe that sections of the crowd booing at the first individual error after 15 minutes told us more about those fans than it did about the keeper.

Let's just step back from the wreckage and look at it from the manager's point of view - he's inherited a crap squad with zero confidence, and even the 'better' players were lost souls.

After weeks of training and players talking the talk, he needed to see the squad stress-tested in game conditions, and blimey, he's just learned a lot of lessons in a week.

Now he can go to the board with an emergency shopping list, but he must be given some time, even though we don't have much, because this is not his team, he's been given half a bucket of trade magnolia and people are expecting the Sistine Chapel ceiling in 15 minutes.

Now, if he is still generating performances like that in a few weeks, then he can own it, and his appointment will have been a mistake.

Hopefully he saw what we saw and he acts on it, rather than repeating mistakes on loop, in the style of the previous regime.

'Better' players in better order please   - 1 to 4.

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I'd like to see our stats in terms of distance run yesterday. My guess is it wouldn't make good reading. My impression is that our fitness levels are way below the standard required at this level. Our times of playing well and competing have all coincided with us being a side that took great pride in its fitness levels. I fear that we have become a lazy squad content to do the bare minimum and we are being found out.

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On 22/12/2022 at 13:42, Mr Nimbus said:

I think they will swarm all over us, take an early lead and we will just huff and puff with little to no imaginative football. 

Really hope I am wrong. I also hope the long balls from the back we deployed against Lincoln are at a minimum. 3-1 Brighton I reckon.

Should have put money on this FFS

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