League Preference (Split)

[CB Fry]

I think one of my favourite things about this forum is how many people are unable to contemplate relegation to the Championship without deciding that means immediate and definite relegation to League One as well.

Edited 8 December, 2022 by CB Fry

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, CB Fry said:

I think one of my favourite things about this forum us how many people are unable to contemplate relegation to the Championship without deciding that means immediate and definite relegation to League One as well.

It's Pavlovian conditioning. It happened before, therefore it will happen again. No ifs, no buts.

[Bad Wolf]

9 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

It's Pavlovian conditioning. It happened before, therefore it will happen again. No ifs, no buts.

There were 7 years between those two relegations.

[alehouseboys]

I think there is a bit of a romantic view of those lower league days and I think it's clouded by the good memories of the last two seasons before promotion back up to the PL. I really enjoyed 2010-2012 but there was a lot of shit before.

I'd only been going regularly for just over 2 seasons before I experienced relegation for the first time, that was shit too, but also gave me (like 2010-2012) some of my best days supporting this club. FA Cup win and European football in 2 years as a second division club and then promotion back up 2 years after that. They're the bits I chose to remember but if I think a back a bit harder I can remember some real crap days out at the football. Losing more often than not in the lower leagues is probably a more dire experience than in the PL.

[CB Fry]

7 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

There were 7 years between those two relegations.

Err...

[Dark Munster]

6 hours ago, The Kraken said:

League one got a bit old after two seasons, mind. I enjoyed going to the matches much more than before though.  Championship promotion season was amazing, and apart from the Portvliet spell I liked those Championship times too. Stern John keeping us up was one of those amazing “I was there” moments that live long in the memory. I don’t fear relegation one bit like I used to twenty years ago. 

I don't fear it as well, as long as there is another Markus to bail us out. 

In the unlikely event that a billionaire doesn't ride over the horizon on a white horse to save us, we can look forward to the possibility of a few decades in the wilderness, like Leeds did and the skates are now enjoying.

[egg]

4 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

I don't fear it as well, as long as there is another Markus to bail us out. 

In the unlikely event that a billionaire doesn't ride over the horizon on a white horse to save us, we can look forward to the possibility of a few decades in the wilderness, like Leeds did and the skates are now enjoying.

Yep, and the skates and Leeds, like forest and all the others had something to play for each season whether it was/is play offs or straight promotion. We have the dizzy heights of safety to play for.

[CB Fry]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep, and the skates and Leeds, like forest and all the others had something to play for each season whether it was/is play offs or straight promotion. We have the dizzy heights of safety to play for.

Exactly. I'm kind of missing the point that dribbling out 9 wins a season to scrape through in 16th to another season where we dribble out another 9 wins is the greatest experience a football fan can ever have. 

[egg]

13 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Exactly. I'm kind of missing the point that dribbling out 9 wins a season to scrape through in 16th to another season where we dribble out another 9 wins is the greatest experience a football fan can ever have. 

I don't get it, and I don't get why it's considered preferable to scrape safety in the premier league than, for example, enjoy a push to make the play offs. I checked the championship table earlier. 17th place is only 6 points off the play offs. That's 17 teams with something positive to play for. Compare that to the PL with maybe 8 teams having something positive to play for each season. 

[Dusic]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

I don't get it, and I don't get why it's considered preferable to scrape safety in the premier league than, for example, enjoy a push to make the play offs. I checked the championship table earlier. 17th place is only 6 points off the play offs. That's 17 teams with something positive to play for. Compare that to the PL with maybe 8 teams having something positive to play for each season. 

Guessing you found it enjoyable when we were winning more often in the PL, and were pushing for European places?

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Guessing you found it enjoyable when we were winning more often in the PL, and were pushing for European places?

Of course, but ask yourself when/if that's likely to happen again. Personally, I have no issue when/if we go down, and if we lose some fans who've only hung around in the hope of us pushing for European places, then that's no bad thing. 

[CB Fry]

13 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Guessing you found it enjoyable when we were winning more often in the PL, and were pushing for European places?

Did you really enjoy the Pellegrino season so much more than the Adkins promotion season?

We can all do this.

[Dusic]

18 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Did you really enjoy the Pellegrino season so much more than the Adkins promotion season?

We can all do this.

All do what? Its not exactly a hot-take that football fans are happier when their team wins more often.

The last few years we haven't won very often but the few years before that in the PL we did and to my knowledge most people loved it. As we are all well aware as Saints fans, there are cycles and we are currently in a bad one, but those make the highs feel better than for the top clubs who can't even be arsed to watch an FA Cup trophy presentation these days because it happens so often.

I'm sure if we were to start winning a few more games then people would enjoy it more and thats the challenge the club has to try and be more competitive at this level. We and others have had spells doing it before, like someone like Brighton are now.

Our spell under Adkins was quite a specific combination of circumstances. If we went down this season there would certainly be a big difference to the atmosphere around the club, squad and fanbase next year than the season we got promoted under Adkins when it felt like the team and the whole club were on the up. 

In some ways it comes down to your view of what is more important, the feeling of winning which isn't guarenteed at any level or the overall health, wealth and context of the club.

Personally I wouldn't see too many positives coming from relegation - there are more impacts than just playing a different league and having a better chance of winning games.

[Turkish]

50 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Did you really enjoy the Pellegrino season so much more than the Adkins promotion season?

We can all do this.

The Pellegrino season was fantastic. Being in this division, getting to play against amazing clubs and players, watching a team of internationals like Hojbjerg, Hoedt, European champion Soares and World Cup quarter finalist Boufal was wonderful. We may not have won every week but I’d much rather see us grind out a 0-0 draw against premier league opposition than canter to an easy victory in a non competitive match against a team of of has beens and never gonna bes. The quality of football in the Pellegrino season was higher than anything we saw in adkins seasons, as proven by the fact the same players lost 8 of their first 10 games when they got promoted. 

Edited 9 December, 2022 by Turkish

[Turkish]

12 minutes ago, Dusic said:

All do what? Its not exactly a hot-take that football fans are happier when their team wins more often.

The last few years we haven't won very often but the few years before that in the PL we did and to my knowledge most people loved it. As we are all well aware as Saints fans, there are cycles and we are currently in a bad one, but those make the highs feel better than for the top clubs who can't even be arsed to watch an FA Cup trophy presentation these days because it happens so often.

I'm sure if we were to start winning a few more games then people would enjoy it more and thats the challenge the club has to try and be more competitive at this level. We and others have had spells doing it before, like someone like Brighton are now.

Our spell under Adkins was quite a specific combination of circumstances. If we went down this season there would certainly be a big difference to the atmosphere around the club, squad and fanbase next year than the season we got promoted under Adkins when it felt like the team and the whole club were on the up. 

In some ways it comes down to your view of what is more important, the feeling of winning which isn't guarenteed at any level or the overall health, wealth and context of the club.

Personally I wouldn't see too many positives coming from relegation - there are more impacts than just playing a different league and having a better chance of winning games.

Relegation means certain relegation again and administration. 

[egg]

17 minutes ago, Dusic said:

All do what? Its not exactly a hot-take that football fans are happier when their team wins more often.

The last few years we haven't won very often but the few years before that in the PL we did and to my knowledge most people loved it. As we are all well aware as Saints fans, there are cycles and we are currently in a bad one, but those make the highs feel better than for the top clubs who can't even be arsed to watch an FA Cup trophy presentation these days because it happens so often.

I'm sure if we were to start winning a few more games then people would enjoy it more and thats the challenge the club has to try and be more competitive at this level. We and others have had spells doing it before, like someone like Brighton are now.

Our spell under Adkins was quite a specific combination of circumstances. If we went down this season there would certainly be a big difference to the atmosphere around the club, squad and fanbase next year than the season we got promoted under Adkins when it felt like the team and the whole club were on the up. 

In some ways it comes down to your view of what is more important, the feeling of winning which isn't guarenteed at any level or the overall health, wealth and context of the club.

Personally I wouldn't see too many positives coming from relegation - there are more impacts than just playing a different league and having a better chance of winning games.

On your last bit, yes, there are massive financial impacts of relegation to include for staff etc. However, the discussion (I assumed) was from a football perspective only. For me, on that front, relegation ain't an issue. 

Personally I want my team to compete. I also want to see them achieve something positive at the season end, or at least have a chance to. Playing for mid table nothingness does nothing for me, and fighting to stay up is shit.

Look at the championship table now, and the premier league, and ask yourself whether you'd rather be in the shoes of a Millwall fan sitting 7th with a real chance of the play offs or promotion, or a saints fan with a real chance of relegation. I suspect many people will be reluctant to give the honest answer.

Edited 9 December, 2022 by egg

[wild-saint]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

On your last bit, yes, there are massive financial impacts of relegation to include for staff etc. However, the discussion (I assumed) was from a football perspective only. For me, on that front, relegation ain't an issue. 

Personally I want my team to compete. I also want to see them achieve something positive at the season end, or at least have a chance to. Playing for mid table nothingness does nothing for me, and fighting to stay up is shit.

Look at the championship table now, and the premier league, and ask yourself whether you'd rather be in the shoes of a Millwall fan sitting 7th with a real chance of the play offs or promotion, or a saints fan with a real chance of relegation. I suspect many people will be reluctant to give the honest answer.

I can 100% answer that I would prefer to be where we are after 15 odd games of the season with a have decent side and the chance (and money ) to sign a badly needed striker in January. 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, wild-saint said:

I can 100% answer that I would prefer to be where we are after 15 odd games of the season with a have decent side and the chance (and money ) to sign a badly needed striker in January. 

Having the money to buy a much needed striker in January doesn't necessarily equate to buying one.  Especially a good one that doesn't really fancy joining a side in the bottom three staring relegation in the face.  

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Look at the championship table now, and the premier league, and ask yourself whether you'd rather be in the shoes of a Millwall fan sitting 7th with a real chance of the play offs or promotion, or a saints fan with a real chance of relegation. I suspect many people will be reluctant to give the honest answer.

I can categorically say I’d rather be in our position than Millwall, who according to Wiki are competing in their 94th season outside the top flight, in the last 96 years. They might make the playoffs, they might even win them, or they might fade away and finish 14th whilst we comfortably avoid the drop. Personally I’d rather have been saints over the last five years than even Norwich/WBA/Fulham, finishing top two in the Championship. Winning the league just because you were relegated last year has a faint whiff of being held back a year at school. You might be one of the smarter kids in your class all of a sudden but it’s not much to brag about.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, egg said:

ask yourself whether you'd rather be in the shoes of a Millwall fan sitting 7th with a real chance of the play offs or promotion, or a saints fan with a real chance of relegation. I suspect many people will be reluctant to give the honest answer.

Another vote for Saints fan from me

(surprising number of 'dishonest' people on this forum... )

Edited 9 December, 2022 by trousers

[Dellman]

12 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

There were 7 years between those two relegations.

Seven dreadful years, never again please. Let Pompey suffer that

[egg]

27 minutes ago, trousers said:

Another vote for Saints fan from me

(surprising number of 'dishonest' people on this forum... )

Genuine question - What's the appeal of never having a chance of success compared to having a chance of promotion, and competing well at the top end of the table? Other than the better league and watching us getting beaten by really good players, the appeal isn't obvious. 

[egg]

40 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I can categorically say I’d rather be in our position than Millwall, who according to Wiki are competing in their 94th season outside the top flight, in the last 96 years. They might make the playoffs, they might even win them, or they might fade away and finish 14th whilst we comfortably avoid the drop. Personally I’d rather have been saints over the last five years than even Norwich/WBA/Fulham, finishing top two in the Championship. Winning the league just because you were relegated last year has a faint whiff of being held back a year at school. You might be one of the smarter kids in your class all of a sudden but it’s not much to brag about.

Given the option of the thrill of the chase to avoid relegation, or the thrill of the chase to gain promotion, I'd prefer the latter personally. Different perspectives I guess. 

[trousers]

13 minutes ago, egg said:

Genuine question - What's the appeal of never having a chance of success compared to having a chance of promotion, and competing well at the top end of the table? Other than the better league and watching us getting beaten by really good players, the appeal isn't obvious. 

If you get promoted from the championship don't you end up back where you don't want to be...?

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Given the option of the thrill of the chase to avoid relegation, or the thrill of the chase to gain promotion, I'd prefer the latter personally. Different perspectives I guess. 

I'd quite happily compete to win the championship every season and when we do refuse promotion.

I know many fans are sold on the Sky, Premier league best league in the world horseshit, but it's only best league in the world if you're one of the best teams in it, for those outside the top 6 or so without billionaire or country owners it's pretty shit. Starting every season with the main aim being to scramble together enough wins to stay up to do it again next season, having the media and pundit fawn over how brilliant all the big clubs are when they beat a team where their bench cost more than the entire squad of the opposition, it's shite if you support a smaller club. The championship is far more competitive, lots of clubs of similar size with most having something to play for and none of the wig, facepaint, tourist helmets or I want to be entertained, match day experience bellends.

 

[saintant]

3 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Exactly. I'm kind of missing the point that dribbling out 9 wins a season to scrape through in 16th to another season where we dribble out another 9 wins is the greatest experience a football fan can ever have. 

The pity is that the Super League didn't happen so we're stuck with picking crumbs off the table to try to compete. As we comparatively spend such a small amount it is inevitable that our turn for relegation will come and, unless Jones is a miracle worker, it will likely happen this season. Probably best to just sit back, strap in and enjoy the ride because there are sure to be twists and turns from Boxing Day until the last game of the season.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

If you get promoted from the championship don't you end up back where you don't want to be...?

Yep. I could live with that. I find the notion of being happy with being a shit team in a great league bizarre. It'd be like being content with celibacy. I'd rather a year of decent sex followed by a barren year personally. 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I'd quite happily compete to win the championship every season and when we do refuse promotion.

I know many fans are sold on the Sky, Premier league best league in the world horseshit, but it's only best league in the world if you're one of the best teams in it, for those outside the top 6 or so without billionaire or country owners it's pretty shit. Starting every season with the main aim being to scramble together enough wins to stay up to do it again next season, having the media and pundit fawn over how brilliant all the big clubs are when they beat a team where their bench cost more than the entire squad of the opposition, it's shite if you support a smaller club. The championship is far more competitive, lots of clubs of similar size with most having something to play for and none of the wig, facepaint, tourist helmets or I want to be entertained, match day experience bellends.

 

100% agreed. I get the impression that some "fans" will lose interest if we're relegated. It's almost like the premier league is a bigger appeal than Saints. I find that genuinely sad. 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, egg said:

100% agreed. I get the impression that some "fans" will lose interest if we're relegated. It's almost like the premier league is a bigger appeal than Saints. I find that genuinely sad. 

It did last time and does for most clubs, When we went down last time out attendances dropped from 31,000 to about 22,000, the year we came back up it was better think we averaged around 26,000, which is by no means bad for that league, but we were top two all season and playing some of the best football in years. I've said many times over the years that a large percentage of our "fans" are premier league consumers, not fans of Southampton FC.

[Manuel]

1 minute ago, egg said:

100% agreed. I get the impression that some "fans" will lose interest if we're relegated. It's almost like the premier league is a bigger appeal than Saints. I find that genuinely sad. 

Some of the best times I had as a supporter is when we were in league 1 and the championship.  Went to more games then than ever.  The atmosphere was different, better, despite probably close to half the amount of supporters for some games.  Cheaper tickets, kids for a quid for cup games, no problem getting a ticket for where you want to be.  I think this forum benefited to.  Less of the armchair supporters watching it on streams or MOTD (which is exactly what I have become).  You can't get a decent perspective of a game without being there.  

[Lighthouse]

15 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It did last time and does for most clubs, When we went down last time out attendances dropped from 31,000 to about 22,000, the year we came back up it was better think we averaged around 26,000, which is by no means bad for that league, but we were top two all season and playing some of the best football in years. I've said many times over the years that a large percentage of our "fans" are premier league consumers, not fans of Southampton FC.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-southampton/besucherzahlenentwicklung/verein/180

According to this, our average attendances are around 30,500 in a PL year, compared to 26,400 when we were promoted. The main difference there being away fans; any of the ‘big six’, plus Leeds, Newcastle, West Ham and a few others will easily bring 3,000 down here. This compares to sub-1000 for an average Championship club.

If we’re talking just the home end, it’s probably 27,500 now compared to 25,500 in the Championship. Then there might be 500 away fans in the home end because they couldn’t get tickets, so the difference could be as few as 1-2,000 Saints fans over a season. 2,000 fans out of 27,000 is 7% and even that is eroded by the fact that some fans will make a bit more effort to go more often in the PL.

[Charlie Wayman]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

 I find the notion of being happy with being a shit team in a great league bizarre. 

Not bizarre at all. Being a (Saints) fan is not a choice, it is part of your life.  Once indoctrinated by guileless parents when you were too young to know the difference, there was never any other choice in the matter. Standing outside looking in it can all seem to be highly irrational but viewed from within we accept what it is and try to make the best of it.

The thrill and expectation of a Saturday afternoon walking up to the Dell or St Mary's never dulls come rain or shine, glory or humiliation. The illusion is built on hope and I wouldn't swap that for anything.

Edited 9 December, 2022 by Charlie Wayman

[John Boy Saint]

25 minutes ago, egg said:

100% agreed. I get the impression that some "fans" will lose interest if we're relegated. It's almost like the premier league is a bigger appeal than Saints. I find that genuinely sad. 

Living in north Ampshoire a great example of that scenario was nipping into Tesco on a Saturday morning and it being very notable how many people in Reading shirts were doing a shop before making the easy 10 mile trip up the A33 (they were plentiful in other parts of town too). When they got relegated from the PL it was equally notable that Reading shirts seemed to vanish from view. 
 

On the other side of the coin;
4 of us “old” boys use to sit together in the Chapel and go away too, it was great fun as going through the turnstiles was like a time machine and we were 14 again in the 70’s, down the Saints (except the banter and ribbing was more sophisticated. Returning to the Premier League broke the spell, one by one my 3 pals packed up going purely down to the PL product making going a chore and not a pleasure.

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Not bizarre at all. Being a (Saints) fan is not a choice, it is part of your life.  Once indoctrinated by guileless parents when you were too young to know the difference, there was never any other choice in the matter. Standing outside looking in it can all seem to be highly irrational but viewed from within we accept what it is and try to make the best of it.

The thrill of a Saturday afternoon walking up to the Dell or St Mary's never dulls come rain or shine, glory or humiliation. The illusion is built on hope and I wouldn't swap that for anything. 

I agree entirely that we can only accept our lot as we can't change it. That's altogether different though to my preference being to compete rather than struggle, even in in a lower league. I'm with you on hope too, but I'm not one of those who comes away happy with a hard fought 2 nil defeat. 

[Turkish]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-southampton/besucherzahlenentwicklung/verein/180

According to this, our average attendances are around 30,500 in a PL year, compared to 26,400 when we were promoted. The main difference there being away fans; any of the ‘big six’, plus Leeds, Newcastle, West Ham and a few others will easily bring 3,000 down here. This compares to sub-1000 for an average Championship club.

If we’re talking just the home end, it’s probably 27,500 now compared to 25,500 in the Championship. Then there might be 500 away fans in the home end because they couldn’t get tickets, so the difference could be as few as 1-2,000 Saints fans over a season. 2,000 fans out of 27,000 is 7% and even that is eroded by the fact that some fans will make a bit more effort to go more often in the PL.

Not true. that season we had big away followings for the games against Pompey, West Ham, Reading, Brighton, Leeds who all sold out their ends. IIRC Derby, Forest, Birmingham, Leicester, Cardiff, Bristol City, Watford, Burnley and Palace all brought large away followings of at least 2000. The only really small away followings were clubs like Doncaster, HUll, Blackpool and Peterborough. 

You're making out all clubs in the championship are tiny with small away followings, this is nonsense. There are some big clubs in that league trival well and amusing that 2 of the 3 outside of the big six you list as bring 3000 were in the championship with us and did bring that many fans.

In the championship we probably had about 20000 every weekers, of which i was one, then another 6-8,000 who'd turn up for a big game. Whereas now we've got about 26,000 who go every week and a few thousand more who will turn up for a big game, so in a crowd of that size it's a significant amount who are there to watch the other team. 

[Manuel]

The one thing I won't miss is the uncertainty that surrounded the club at that time.  I remember standing at one game, before Marcus took over, genuinely thinking that this might be the last time I ever see SFC play.  Sounds hysterical to say it now but it was real at the time. 

[SotonianWill]

14 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-southampton/besucherzahlenentwicklung/verein/180

According to this, our average attendances are around 30,500 in a PL year, compared to 26,400 when we were promoted. The main difference there being away fans; any of the ‘big six’, plus Leeds, Newcastle, West Ham and a few others will easily bring 3,000 down here. This compares to sub-1000 for an average Championship club.

If we’re talking just the home end, it’s probably 27,500 now compared to 25,500 in the Championship. Then there might be 500 away fans in the home end because they couldn’t get tickets, so the difference could be as few as 1-2,000 Saints fans over a season. 2,000 fans out of 27,000 is 7% and even that is eroded by the fact that some fans will make a bit more effort to go more often in the PL.

I think it’s more appropriate to look at the 23,000 of 2005/06 to be more realistic. we’ll lose a good 5-8k supporters overnight.

The support losing plastic prem atmosphere would be a benefit imo, also I prefer the football. the only downside is a lack of enjoyment if you do a forest/birmingham/Ipswich style relegation with staying in the championship seemingly forever. 

we were lucky last time for only 7 years, if you take pompey we laugh at them for being stuck in league one but that could be us in the champ, it’s changed now for us we can’t bankroll our way through leagues spending more than everyone else ie Lambert 1 million in lg 1. near enough everyone has a couple prem quality players in the championship which is why it’s so good.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Manuel said:

The one thing I won't miss is the uncertainty that surrounded the club at that time.  I remember standing at one game, before Marcus took over, genuinely thinking that this might be the last time I ever see SFC play.  Sounds hysterical to say it now but it was real at the time. 

That was probably the Burnley game. we'd just been given the ruling by the Football league that if we stayed up we'd be deducted 10 points and go down anyway or if we went down we'd start next season on -10 points. Still pisses me off they were able to do that. We drew which meant we went down anyway at the final whistle but there was a general feeling of doom around the place. A fews before we'd lost 2-3 at home to Charlton who were bottom and we'd just announced he company was going into administration, remember them trying to claim a loophole to say the parent company not the club was in admin but that was never going to wash. 

[SotonianWill]

13 hours ago, CB Fry said:

I think one of my favourite things about this forum is how many people are unable to contemplate relegation to the Championship without deciding that means immediate and definite relegation to League One as well.

Not being in the Premier League caps our Youth Academy. Whilst we still bring through good players, top players - I was watching Musiala documentary and he said he left for Chelsea as they were Prem at the time - leave us and we have to rebuild again. We are just approaching 10 years in the prem which means we are starting to see players come through who joined us in the Prem

[Lighthouse]

9 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Not true. that season we had big away followings for the games against Pompey, West Ham, Reading, Brighton, Leeds who all sold out their ends. IIRC Derby, Forest, Birmingham, Leicester, Cardiff, Bristol City, Watford, Burnley and Palace all brought large away followings of at least 2000. The only really small away followings were clubs like Doncaster, HUll, Blackpool and Peterborough. 

You're making out all clubs in the championship are tiny with small away followings, this is nonsense. There are some big clubs in that league trival well and amusing that 2 of the 3 outside of the big six you list as bring 3000 were in the championship with us and did bring that many fans.

In the championship we probably had about 20000 every weekers, of which i was one, then another 6-8,000 who'd turn up for a big game. Whereas now we've got about 26,000 who go every week and a few thousand more who will turn up for a big game, so in a crowd of that size it's a significant amount who are there to watch the other team. 

Some of the big teams had big followings, others not so much but point taken, let’s say the average away following was 1,500 instead. That still leaves an average home attendance of just under 25,000 in the Championship and 27,500 in the PL. So a difference of 9% on average.

The BIB just doesn’t work, you’d need over 8,000 ‘big gamers’ to turn up for more than half our games for everything to even out.

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, SotonianWill said:

Not being in the Premier League caps our Youth Academy. Whilst we still bring through good players, top players - I was watching Musiala documentary and he said he left for Chelsea as they were Prem at the time - leave us and we have to rebuild again. We are just approaching 10 years in the prem which means we are starting to see players come through who joined us in the Prem

The flip side of looking at it that way though is that Walcott, Lallana, Schniderlin, Bale and Oxlainde Chamberlain wouldn't have come through like they did if we'd still been in the premier league all that time. They got their chance because we were in the championship and league one, They were obviously all very good players but they would have been playing B team football for a lot longer, were they better players because they played regular football for us rather than B team games until their early 20s? Impossible to say but cant deny it any of them would have been playing regular first team football in their teens if the were in the premier league.

[Turkish]

16 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Some of the big teams had big followings, others not so much but point taken, let’s say the average away following was 1,500 instead. That still leaves an average home attendance of just under 25,000 in the Championship and 27,500 in the PL. So a difference of 9% on average.

The BIB just doesn’t work, you’d need over 8,000 ‘big gamers’ to turn up for more than half our games for everything to even out.

But you're not comparing like for like, as someone else said a better gauge would be not when we went up when we had momentum, a good team and optimism, but what happened last time we went down, when we went from 31,000 to 23,000. Even the following season when we got to the play offs the average was still only 23,000. 9,000 empty seats at St Marys that were full when we were in the premier league. Even using your average of 1500 away fans, that league 21,500 Saints fans, thats a big drop. 

Edited 9 December, 2022 by Turkish

[SotonianWill]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

The flip side of looking at it that way though is that Walcott, Lallana, Schniderlin, Bale and Oxlainde Chamberlain wouldn't have come through like they did if we'd still been in the premier league all that time. They got their chance because we were in the championship and league one, They were obviously all very good players but they would have been playing B team football for a lot longer, were they better players because they played regular football for us rather than B team games until their early 20s? Impossible to say but cant deny it any of them would have been playing regular first team football in their teens if the were in the premier league.

I agree with you. i’m not sure obviously under Jones, but it depends on the manager. if we had ralph or even Koeman/Poch if a young player was decent enough they’d have still given a teenager a go. see Gallagher, Shaw, Chambers, Gape, Reed, Hesketh, Tino, Stephens, Lavia, Nlundulu, Tella etc. 

If the likes of Hesketh, now playing for Eastleigh, gets a chance in European games, surely someone of the quality of Bale or Chamberlain would be given a chance at this level despite being young. I mean some of the players mentioned are pretty shit and didn’t take their slim chances, but surely the fact they got one in the first place is proof. 

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

But you're not comparing like for like, as someone else said a better gauge would be what happened last time we went down, when we went from 31,000 to 23,000. Even the following season when we got to the play offs the average was still only 23,000. 9,000 empty seats at St Marys that were full when we were in the premier league. Even using your average of 1500 away fans, that league 21,500 Saints fans, thats a big drop. 

And then in the Poortvliet season we were about 13,000 home fans on average, which is a massive difference from 25,000. So all we’ve really proven is that attendances will vary, depending on multiple factors and isn’t necessarily tied to the league we’re in. Having Lowe in charge, Poortvliet as manager and playing a bunch of kids, in administration turned away a much greater number of fans than simply the brand of the PL.

[alehouseboys]

Best solution for me is Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs,Liverpool and Newcastle all fuck off and set up some European Super League. They can then take the obscene TV money with them and level off the playing field for the rest of us. And no need for relegation for us to get ‘better’ matchdays.

[trousers]

15 hours ago, CB Fry said:

I think one of my favourite things about this forum is how many people are unable to contemplate relegation to the Championship without deciding that means immediate and definite relegation to League One as well.

I may have missed it but I've never seen anyone say that. I've always said successive relegations is a possibility that needs to be contemplated when considering the implications of relegation from the premier league. Of course, it's equally possible that we could bounce straight back up again. Or settle in as a top half championship side for the foreseeable future. Many potential outcomes, all of which are possible but none of which are certain.

Edited 9 December, 2022 by trousers

[Turkish]

16 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

And then in the Poortvliet season we were about 13,000 home fans on average, which is a massive difference from 25,000. So all we’ve really proven is that attendances will vary, depending on multiple factors and isn’t necessarily tied to the league we’re in. Having Lowe in charge, Poortvliet as manager and playing a bunch of kids, in administration turned away a much greater number of fans than simply the brand of the PL.

16,500 actually, 18000 average attendance less the agreed average of 1,5k away fans. So in the championship a drop of 5k home fans from our first two championship seasons to when we were relegated with a truly awful team. 

[100%Red&White]

Looks like the lowest average attendance since we moved to St Mary's was 17,849 the year we were relegated to League One coinciding with all the unrest with Lowe et al. That's the only season we averaged under 20k. Other than that, our attendances in the lower leagues were very good.

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/soto.htm

Edited 9 December, 2022 by 100%Red&White
amended link

[Dellman]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

That was probably the Burnley game. we'd just been given the ruling by the Football league that if we stayed up we'd be deducted 10 points and go down anyway or if we went down we'd start next season on -10 points. Still pisses me off they were able to do that. We drew which meant we went down anyway at the final whistle but there was a general feeling of doom around the place. A fews before we'd lost 2-3 at home to Charlton who were bottom and we'd just announced he company was going into administration, remember them trying to claim a loophole to say the parent company not the club was in admin but that was never going to wash. 

I remember that Charlton game. Lawrie McM was going round the ground appealing for funds to save the Club. It was a low point.

[Micky]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

I'd quite happily compete to win the championship every season and when we do refuse promotion.

I know many fans are sold on the Sky, Premier league best league in the world horseshit, but it's only best league in the world if you're one of the best teams in it, for those outside the top 6 or so without billionaire or country owners it's pretty shit. Starting every season with the main aim being to scramble together enough wins to stay up to do it again next season, having the media and pundit fawn over how brilliant all the big clubs are when they beat a team where their bench cost more than the entire squad of the opposition, it's shite if you support a smaller club. The championship is far more competitive, lots of clubs of similar size with most having something to play for and none of the wig, facepaint, tourist helmets or I want to be entertained, match day experience bellends.

 

Absolutely this.  For what it's worth I was absolutely gutted that the proposed European Super League (or whatever they called it) was dropped so quickly - I would've loved it had the big clubs pissed off to their own league, which would've leveled the playing field somewhat.  Most teams in the Premier League are simply making up the numbers - playing for nothing (other than Sky money of course).  The Championship is a decent standard across the board - I  have no problems if that's where we end up.