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SKD

SKD

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, saint lard said:

There was an interesting tweet by a pretty well respected  journo reporting Leeds were in for JWP for €40m…and yes, reported in Euros 

its  since been deleted. 
 

One suspects his agent is trying to get him a pay rise out of us. 

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ErwinK1961

ErwinK1961

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, saint lard said:

There was an interesting tweet by a pretty well respected  journo reporting Leeds were in for JWP for €40m…and yes, reported in Euros 

its  since been deleted. 
 

Why would he go there, Kalvin Phillips is a much better player than him 😉

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SuperSAINT

SuperSAINT

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Greenridge said:

Interest story being touted in The Daily Telegraph today.

Saw one yesterday about him being on the list to replace Douglas Luiz if he leaves?  Was that the one?

Villa eye midfield reinforcements as Roma target Douglas Luiz

Aston Villa have been one of the more active teams in the summer transfer window while many others are focused on the European Championship.

They have expressed an interest in James Ward-Prowse and have also been monitoring Harry Winks and Todd Cantwell in that central midfield position, while Dwight McNeil has also been looked at.

Villa midfielder Douglas Luiz, meanwhile, is wanted by Jose Mourinho at AS Roma after the buy-back option held by Manchester City expired.

 

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

Saw one yesterday about him being on the list to replace Douglas Luiz if he leaves?  Was that the one?

Villa eye midfield reinforcements as Roma target Douglas Luiz

Aston Villa have been one of the more active teams in the summer transfer window while many others are focused on the European Championship.

They have expressed an interest in James Ward-Prowse and have also been monitoring Harry Winks and Todd Cantwell in that central midfield position, while Dwight McNeil has also been looked at.

Villa midfielder Douglas Luiz, meanwhile, is wanted by Jose Mourinho at AS Roma after the buy-back option held by Manchester City expired.

 

Winks seems a far more appropriate signing for them. A level below JWP but perfectly acceptable midtable midfielder. Cantwell would be a poor buy.

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Micky

Micky

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

I heard Noel Whelan & Carlton Palmer were sent round to turn his head.

My theory is it's agent Targett leading the Villa charge, feeding JWP the Holt End propaganda....!

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Suhari

Suhari

Posted
Posted

Maybe an unpopular opinion but I wouldn't be too worried if he went for decent ££.

Yes, some decent free kicks and he plays every game, but is he a leader? How many goals and assists does he really provide? In the words of Adrian Durham: is he all that?

Romeu is a better DM, Armstrong a better AM.

Great if he stays a Saint. If he went for £40m and we spend £10m on someone like Delaney, I don't think we're weaker.

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Cartman

Cartman

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Suhari said:

Maybe an unpopular opinion but I wouldn't be too worried if he went for decent ££.

Yes, some decent free kicks and he plays every game, but is he a leader? How many goals and assists does he really provide? In the words of Adrian Durham: is he all that?

Romeu is a better DM, Armstrong a better AM.

Great if he stays a Saint. If he went for £40m and we spend £10m on someone like Delaney, I don't think we're weaker.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Suhari said:

Maybe an unpopular opinion but I wouldn't be too worried if he went for decent ££.

Yes, some decent free kicks and he plays every game, but is he a leader? How many goals and assists does he really provide? In the words of Adrian Durham: is he all that?

Romeu is a better DM, Armstrong a better AM.

Great if he stays a Saint. If he went for £40m and we spend £10m on someone like Delaney, I don't think we're weaker.

Good post 

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Suhari said:

How many goals and assists does he really provide?

15 last season.

He's one of our best players, significantly better than Romeu and Armstrong but plays different role to both. He is our pivot, our box to box, it all falls apart without him. We have described him as our most important player and that's bang on the money.

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

Agreed.

 

If only he’d played in the 9-0, the Spurs, Leeds, Newcastle & West Brom debacles. If only he’d been available for the pathetic semi final surrender. It all falls apart when he’s missing….

Oh great, your back to blame every one of our poor performances on the one guy you've decided you don't like. It'd been a while without that stupid point of view so I was worried you might have thought better of it. Glad you popped up to remind everyone.

Saying we fall apart without him doesn't mean we will always win with him, use your brain.

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'm not sure how anyone can make any comment about what we are like without JWP being that he's played every minute of every game for two years.

Whether people like it or not, he is us. And that includes the diabolical form since January.

Edited by CB Fry
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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, TWar said:

15 last season.

He's one of our best players, significantly better than Romeu and Armstrong but plays different role to both. He is our pivot, our box to box, it all falls apart without him. We have described him as our most important player and that's bang on the money.

We were a lot worse without Romeu than with him. 

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Mosin

Mosin

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Suhari said:

Maybe an unpopular opinion but I wouldn't be too worried if he went for decent ££.

Yes, some decent free kicks and he plays every game, but is he a leader? How many goals and assists does he really provide? In the words of Adrian Durham: is he all that?

Romeu is a better DM, Armstrong a better AM.

Great if he stays a Saint. If he went for £40m and we spend £10m on someone like Delaney, I don't think we're weaker.

Its been a long time since JWP has been given freedom to push forward, at the start of the season he was starting most of our attacks till OR got injured and Dailo hasnt got the concetration levels to play DM so JWP has had to play as DM ( ORs job ) while Armstrong and Dialo have been filling in for JWP's b2b role. we really did miss OR and if he never got injured, JWP would have got even more goals and assists.

is he not responsible for over 35 % of our goals? so surely with better players arond him he can do more? but still 35 % of our goals is a huge chunck to replace for a none attacking player that is full on Mr Saints, not to mention Ings more than likely to leave, 70 % of our goals last season gone...

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
Just now, egg said:

Eh? He's never missing, so I'm not sure what that's based on. 

He leads the team or is near the top in most of our important metrics. He has more attacking threat than every single one of our attacking mids (see key passes and chances created) and he puts in more defensive actions per game than every player except Romeu and Bednarek. He also has more progressive passes per 90 than everyone in our team. I'd like to think if he wasn't there someone else would step up and do all that but it just doesn't seem very likely.

He is only topped in goal contributions by our CF and is only topped in defensive actions by one of our CBs and our DM, I don't see how we would do without those attributes.

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egg

egg

Posted
Posted
Just now, TWar said:

He leads the team or is near the top in most of our important metrics. He has more attacking threat than every single one of our attacking mids (see key passes and chances created) and he puts in more defensive actions per game than every player except Romeu and Bednarek. He also has more progressive passes per 90 than everyone in our team. I'd like to think if he wasn't there someone else would step up and do all that but it just doesn't seem very likely.

He is only topped in goal contributions by our CF and is only topped in defensive actions by one of our CBs and our DM, I don't see how we would do without those attributes.

You said that it all falls apart without him. It does not as we're never without him, he's played every minute. 

What he does defensively could be done better by Romeu. 

What he does offensively could be done better by Armstrong.

I'm in the he's neat, tidy, great at free kicks, but replaceable camp. I appreciate that's the minority view which is fine with me. 

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, egg said:

You said that it all falls apart without him. It does not as we're never without him, he's played every minute. 

What he does defensively could be done better by Romeu. 

What he does offensively could be done better by Armstrong.

I'm in the he's neat, tidy, great at free kicks, but replaceable camp. I appreciate that's the minority view which is fine with me. 

Well, for starters offensively he has 15 goal contributions to Armstrong's 9 and has created almost double the chances so he can do quite a lot better than Armstrong in that regard. But the point is, he does both. He is slightly worse than Romeu defensively but has almost three times more goal contributions than him this season than Romeu has in literally his entire southampton career (six seasons).

He is valuable because he does everything. He might not be the very best attacking (Ings) or the very best defensively (Romeu) but the fact he is second place at both shows how incredibly valuable he really is.

Edited by TWar
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Mosin

Mosin

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, egg said:

You said that it all falls apart without him. It does not as we're never without him, he's played every minute. 

What he does defensively could be done better by Romeu. 

What he does offensively could be done better by Armstrong.

I'm in the he's neat, tidy, great at free kicks, but replaceable camp. I appreciate that's the minority view which is fine with me. 

But he does create more than Armstrong in open play, not to mention has a far better shot, Armstrong can just dribble far better which is why he normaly plays in one of the driving roles normaly filled by Walcott and Redmond and probs Tella, TBF with a fully fit team, Armstrong wont make the first 11

Easy going to be

OR JWP
Tella Theo / Redders
Adams Ings

No room for Armstrong unless we switch to 433 but then we drop ings or adams.. so not likely

Edited by Mosin
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egg

egg

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, TWar said:

Well, for starters offensively he has 15 goal contributions to Armstrong's 9 and has created almost double the chances so he can do quite a lot better than Armstrong in that regard. But the point is, he does both. He is slightly worse than Romeu defensively but has almost three times more goal contributions than him this season than Romeu has in literally his entire southampton career (six seasons).

He is valuable because he does everything. He might not be the very best attacking (Ings) or the very best defensively (Romeu) but the fact he is second place at both shows how incredibly valuable he really is.

You think he's a better player than I do, that's cool. Watch Armstrong with the ball at his feet running at the opposition. JWP can't do that. That's attacking play where Armstrong is better. Judging players on stats alone isn't the way to judge a player. 

As I say, we have different views. Mine is that he ain't all that. 

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That’s all well and good. Please give us some examples of when it’s all fallen apart without him. That was what you claim.

One can predict an outcome with data and reasoning. It isn't proven, and it wouldn't be from a couple of anecdotal circumstances either, but it is a perfectly valid way to construct a hypothesis. For example, if I told you you would die if you jumped off a cliff and gave you a bunch of reasons the retort "well, have I ever actually died from jumping off a cliff?" would be a very silly one to prove you wouldn't.

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egg

egg

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Mosin said:

But he does create more than Armstrong in open play, not to mention has a far better shot, Armstrong can just dribble far better which is why he normaly plays in one of the driving roles normaly filled by Walcott and Redmond and probs Tella, TBF with a fully fit team, Armstrong wont make the first 11

Easy going to be

OR JWP
Tella Theo / Redders
Adams Ings

No room for Armstrong unless we switch to 433 but then we drop ings or adams.. so not likely

Stick Armstrong in the middle with Romeu holding, and a fit and on form Ings up top, I'd be very happy that we'll lose no creativity from open play. We'll also have running between the lines which JWP doesn't give us. 

Talk of Armstrong not making our first eleven is crazy. 

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Mosin

Mosin

Posted
Posted
Just now, egg said:

You think he's a better player than I do, that's cool. Watch Armstrong with the ball at his feet running at the opposition. JWP can't do that. That's attacking play where Armstrong is better. Judging players on stats alone isn't the way to judge a player. 

As I say, we have different views. Mine is that he ain't all that. 

i already said Armstrong dribbles better ( But that is it ), But armstrong dont play dm or CM does he? only as back up to back up to back up... he is 4th choice behind OR JWP, Dan and Jenk in those roles, he is also not first choice over Redders / Walcott / Tella ( Who will likely be our best attacking mid next year ) Armstrong is behind them 3 and he isnt kicking Adams or Ings out either...

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Mosin said:

TBF with a fully fit team, Armstrong wont make the first 11

I disagree with this too, for the record. Armstrong is a very capable midtable AM and literally everyone else we have in that role is shite. JWP is better than Armstrong in an attacking sense but Redmond, Tella, Djenepo, Walcott sure as hell aren't.

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egg

egg

Posted
Posted
Just now, Mosin said:

i already said Armstrong dribbles better ( But that is it ), But armstrong dont play dm or CM does he? only as back up to back up to back up... he is 4th choice behind OR JWP, Dan and Jenk in those roles, he is also not first choice over Redders / Walcott / Tella ( Who will likely be our best attacking mid next year ) Armstrong is behind them 3 and he isnt kicking Adams or Ings out either...

We'll have to agree to differ pal. Armstrong will be in our starting eleven when fit. 

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, egg said:

You think he's a better player than I do, that's cool. Watch Armstrong with the ball at his feet running at the opposition. JWP can't do that. That's attacking play where Armstrong is better. Judging players on stats alone isn't the way to judge a player. 

As I say, we have different views. Mine is that he ain't all that. 

Running at people isn't everything. JWP passes a lot better. But yeah, different views are fine. JWP is a great passer and a pretty average dribbler, it's probably his biggest weakness due to his lack of acceleration. We should set up in a way that allows him to splay passes about and lads like Armstrong to dribble too. They both have their role and both are really important, JWP is moreso imo as the end product he provides is better and he is very good defensively whereas Armstrong is only ok against the ball.

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, TWar said:

Running at people isn't everything. JWP passes a lot better. But yeah, different views are fine. JWP is a great passer and a pretty average dribbler, it's probably his biggest weakness due to his lack of acceleration. We should set up in a way that allows him to splay passes about and lads like Armstrong to dribble too. They both have their role and both are really important, JWP is moreso imo as the end product he provides is better and he is very good defensively whereas Armstrong is only ok against the ball.

I guess that’s what happens when you look at a game from. Statistics level to a what’s actually happening level

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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, TWar said:

One can predict an outcome with data and reasoning. It isn't proven, and it wouldn't be from a couple of anecdotal circumstances either, but it is a perfectly valid way to construct a hypothesis. For example, if I told you you would die if you jumped off a cliff and gave you a bunch of reasons the retort "well, have I ever actually died from jumping off a cliff?" would be a very silly one to prove you wouldn't.

Nope.

Had you meant that, you’d have written “we will fall apart without him”. 
 

 

 

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Nope.

Had you meant that, you’d have written “we will fall apart without him”. 
 

 

 

"It all falls apart without him" is what I wrote, which is, for me, synonymous with "without him it would all fall apart" not "It has fallen apart in the past when he was not present".

You could, at best, argue that both interpretations are valid, but there is certainly not a world where you can say yours is and mine isn't. For instance, if I were to say "if you remove the screws from your bed it all falls apart" that doesn't insist that that thing has already happened. This is a boring semantic debate but you seem to be deadset on engaging in a boring semantic debate.

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

But what about the stats?

Armstrongs stats are better than all our other attacking mids, they also agree that he should be one of our first names on the team sheet, along with JWP.

Edited by TWar
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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, TWar said:

"It all falls apart without him" is what I wrote, which is, for me, synonymous with "without him it would all fall apart" not "It has fallen apart in the past when he was not present".

You could, at best, argue that both interpretations are valid, but there is certainly not a world where you can say yours is and mine isn't. For instance, if I were to say "if you remove the screws from your bed it all falls apart" that doesn't insist that that thing has already happened. This is a boring semantic debate but you seem to be deadset on engaging in a boring semantic debate.

That’s assuming the other screws did nothing and the screw brought in to replace the main screw did nothing too

Absolutely terrible analogy

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

That’s assuming the other screws did nothing and the screw brought in to replace the main screw did nothing too

Absolutely terrible analogy

The analogy had nothing to do with football, it was designed to argue the semantic point that "It all falls apart without JWP" means "If JWP wasn't in the team it would all fall apart" and not "It has in the past fallen apart when JWP wasn't present".

We moved off football and into Duckhunter trying to claim strange semantic pedantry (incorrectly) because he knows little about football and couldn't argue against the actual points being made. I could have used the analogy "If you jump off the cliff you die" to prove it (in that that phrase is still valid if you have yet to fall off a cliff), but I wanted to use the same phrasing.

Edited by TWar
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egg

egg

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, TWar said:

The analogy had nothing to do with football, it was designed to argue the semantic point that "It all falls apart without JWP" means "If JWP wasn't in the team it would all fall apart" and not "It has in the past fallen apart when JWP wasn't present".

We moved off football and into Duckhunter trying to claim strange semantic pedantry (incorrectly) because he knows little about football and couldn't argue against the actual points being made. I could have used the analogy "If you jump off the cliff you'd die" to prove it (in that that phrase is still valid if you have yet to fall off a cliff), but I wanted to use the same phrasing.

Two points :

1. Duck interpreted your words correctly. I appreciate that you meant something else, but his interpretation of your words was correct. 

2. To be fair to Duck, he argues the merits of a footballer based on what he sees on a pitch rather than stats focusing on a few select figures. 

 

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TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, egg said:

Two points :

1. Duck interpreted your words correctly. I appreciate that you meant something else, but his interpretation of your words was correct. 

2. To be fair to Duck, he argues the merits of a footballer based on what he sees on a pitch rather than stats focusing on a few select figures. 

 

 

In what way is his interpretation correct, just out of interest? I don't think "We fall apart without JWP" necessarily means I am guaranteeing that has already happened. Either way I don't think it is a particularly interesting conversation anyway to have in depth, just curious.

And I don't think Duck argues based off what he sees on the pitch, I think he dislikes Ward-Prowse because he ducked out the way of a shot once and Duckhunter has a strange outdated sense of the "manly footballer" being the best footballer as well as a stubbornness that once he has made his mind up on someone that is that. There are a lot of people on here who don't use stats and use the eye test who I respect very much but Duck is not one of them.

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted

It is interesting that the same person saying "we fall apart without JWP" is the same person when reaching for an analogy goes for all the screws holding a bed together. And then on further clarification goes for fall off a cliff and dying.

It all points to an almost unbelievable level of belief in JWP.

Without him we fall apart, the entire bed collapses, we fall off a cliff, we die.

I'm not sure its just semantics when what is being reached for is apocalyptic over and over again.

JWP is not that irreplaceable mate.

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