James Ward-Prowse

[egg]

1 hour ago, austsaint said:

Very good assessment Clarkey.     I am one of those posters who up until 18 months ago couldn't see the fuss that was made about JWP outside of his corners and free kicks.    Through a succession of Managers he never seemed to find a position nor a consistent quality in his general play - at least in my eyes he couldn't.      But I have reassessed my opinion, and it is wrong to compare the pre-Ralph version of JWP with the current player.   I would still argue that his outfield game is way below the quality of his dead ball delivery - he has however narrowed the gap by making the CM position his own and building on his energy and work rate with pressing, tackling, interceptions and a better range of passing.

Long may it continue, and as you hint at, it's going to be interesting to see whether "big club" offers come in.

Good post, as was the post from S-Clarke you replied to. 

I also couldn't see the fuss about Prowse for ages. Not fast enough to play wide, not skilful enough as a 10, not strong enough as a CM. Over the last 18 months - 2 years he's become a superb CM player. As you say, his work rate is phenomenal and my criticism is that he rarely plays the killer ball. I think he has it in his locker though, and whether it's confidence, the runs not being made, or being told to keep it simple I'm not sure. 

On the "best" at this or that point, I'm not sure who's better at free kicks out there at the moment. 

My instinct is that he's played himself into a big move this summer. 

[captainchris]

This forum has become a bit of a joke.

Comparing JWP with Ronaldo unless you are on a substance of kind is beyond any stretch of any sane imagination... 

[S-Clarke]

36 minutes ago, captainchris said:

This forum has become a bit of a joke.

Comparing JWP with Ronaldo unless you are on a substance of kind is beyond any stretch of any sane imagination... 

That hasn't happened though. Read the posts and the context around them rather than jumping up and down to try and troll.

[Lord Duckhunter]

7 hours ago, captainchris said:

This forum has become a bit of a joke.

Comparing JWP with Ronaldo unless you are on a substance of kind is beyond any stretch of any sane imagination... 

The  hyperbole is ridiculous right across the board. We top the league for all of about 20mins and it starts, the over exaggeration of Ralph is bizarre, a few pages of the Ings thread had some claiming he was one of our best ever strikers and now we have JWP being called superb, the best in the world at free kicks, and deserving of a massive move. It’s a wonder that we’re in the bottom half of the table with such great talents at the club.

 How often does he play a killer pass, it’s sideways backwards all the time. Stats don’t tell the story, the reason he doesn’t give the ball away is he never takes a risk and therefore never really creates anything away from free kicks. How often does he make a forward run behind the oppositions back 4. How often does he run with the ball and beat a man or get us quickly up the pitch. More importantly, how often does he disrupt play, stop the opposition from playing and smash a few. Without OR in there he looks like a little boy lost defensively and he’s a poor poor captain. He wouldn’t get anywhere near a “best side we’ve had since promotion”. He’s doing better than he ever has done before, but was starting from a low base. If you took Rickie Lambert or Matts free kicks away, they’d still get in the side, I doubt Prowse would, or if he did, we’d be in scapegoat territory. Nice lad, good son in law material, honest pro, but midtable player. 

[woodsaint1]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The  hyperbole is ridiculous right across the board. We top the league for all of about 20mins and it starts, the over exaggeration of Ralph is bizarre, a few pages of the Ings thread had some claiming he was one of our best ever strikers and now we have JWP being called superb, the best in the world at free kicks, and deserving of a massive move. It’s a wonder that we’re in the bottom half of the table with such great talents at the club.

 How often does he play a killer pass, it’s sideways backwards all the time. Stats don’t tell the story, the reason he doesn’t give the ball away is he never takes a risk and therefore never really creates anything away from free kicks. How often does he make a forward run behind the oppositions back 4. How often does he run with the ball and beat a man or get us quickly up the pitch. More importantly, how often does he disrupt play, stop the opposition from playing and smash a few. Without OR in there he looks like a little boy lost defensively and he’s a poor poor captain. He wouldn’t get anywhere near a “best side we’ve had since promotion”. He’s doing better than he ever has done before, but was starting from a low base. If you took Rickie Lambert or Matts free kicks away, they’d still get in the side, I doubt Prowse would, or if he did, we’d be in scapegoat territory. Nice lad, good son in law material, honest pro, but midtable player. 

Given what I've just read, he's already in your scapegoat territory, as are alot of our players if you read your miserable posts.

Of course hes a midtable player, thats why he plays for us. I'm not advocating him to be a world beater, nor are many on here, but he's a crucial player for us. Of those attributes you've described, theres been plenty of players who've had great careers at the top level doing exactly what hes doing. He maximises his ownpotential. Hes not the quickest, nor the most skillful, but hes one of our best players and his set plays are excellent.

And how do you know hes a poor, poor captain? You dont see what goes on in the dressing room or on the training ground. You're probably basing it some weird notion that all captains have to be Roy Keane-esque, running around booting people and giving other players bollockings. The games moved on, those players are a dying breed, if not dead already

[egg]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The  hyperbole is ridiculous right across the board. We top the league for all of about 20mins and it starts, the over exaggeration of Ralph is bizarre, a few pages of the Ings thread had some claiming he was one of our best ever strikers and now we have JWP being called superb, the best in the world at free kicks, and deserving of a massive move. It’s a wonder that we’re in the bottom half of the table with such great talents at the club.

 How often does he play a killer pass, it’s sideways backwards all the time. Stats don’t tell the story, the reason he doesn’t give the ball away is he never takes a risk and therefore never really creates anything away from free kicks. How often does he make a forward run behind the oppositions back 4. How often does he run with the ball and beat a man or get us quickly up the pitch. More importantly, how often does he disrupt play, stop the opposition from playing and smash a few. Without OR in there he looks like a little boy lost defensively and he’s a poor poor captain. He wouldn’t get anywhere near a “best side we’ve had since promotion”. He’s doing better than he ever has done before, but was starting from a low base. If you took Rickie Lambert or Matts free kicks away, they’d still get in the side, I doubt Prowse would, or if he did, we’d be in scapegoat territory. Nice lad, good son in law material, honest pro, but midtable player. 

You complain about hyperbole but you twist "playing himself into a big move" into "Deserving of a massive move". Let's see what happens in the summer, but I say he's put himself into the shop window for a big move. I could see him in much better teams than ours where he'd do well. 

"best in the world at free kicks". I say I don't see anyone better right bow. If you say it's not JWP at the moment, who is? 

I'm with you on his captaincy skills. All I see is a bloke who claps a bit. 

I'm also with you on the killer ball and the way he keeps the ball alive simply. I don't put that down to a lack of ability though. Have a look and tell me what runs he's not picking out. There aren't any. Moreover, I think it's Ralph's coaching - keep it simple, look for an opening, pass back, repeat. He's doing his job in a very simple system. 

 

[JustinSFC]

I'm done on this but I'll settle for:

Statistically he's the "best in the world" but global fan opinion of literally everyone except some Saints fans is he isn't and wouldn't even enter their heads without serious thought.

[TWar]

17 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

I'm done on this but I'll settle for:

Statistically he's the "best in the world" but global fan opinion of literally everyone except some Saints fans is he isn't and wouldn't even enter their heads without serious thought.

Some saints fans and Pep, possibly the best manager in world football. There are quite a few others too. 

[JustinSFC]

1 minute ago, TWar said:

Some saints fans and Pep, possibly the best manager in world football. There are quite a few others too. 

Some people would jump off the itchen bridge if the revered, do no wrong - say no wrong Pep Guardiola said it was safe to do it.

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I'm with you on his captaincy skills. All I see is a bloke who claps a bit. 

What do you think a captain should do, and how do you know Ward-Prowse isn't doing it?

This isn't the 1980s where a captain simply needed to shout the loudest!

Edited 27 March, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Moreover, I think it's Ralph's coaching - keep it simple, look for an opening, pass back, repeat. He's doing his job in a very simple system. 

It isn't a simple system in the slightest. It is tactically intricate with a large range of pressing triggers and plays in different situations.

[TWar]

12 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

Some people would jump off the itchen bridge if the revered, do no wrong - say no wrong Pep Guardiola said it was safe to do it.

Doesn't make Pep wrong though. I think statistically jwp is amongst the best in the world and people who have a knowledge of such things tend to hold him in high esteem. Pep is a very stats based, modern manager so it makes sense that he'd sit up and notice when someone performs so far above average at a given thing for so long. 

[egg]

48 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

It isn't a simple system in the slightest. It is tactically intricate with a large range of pressing triggers and plays in different situations.

It is simple, and I won't take this thread off topic talking about it. JWP plays to his role in that system. JWP is the topic. 

[egg]

54 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

What do you think a captain should do, and how do you know Ward-Prowse isn't doing it?

This isn't the 1980s where a captain simply needed to shout the loudest!

If you need to ask what a captain does and assume that people think that it involves lots of shouting, you plainly don't understand the role of a captain. On a computer screen you can't see the significance, but on a real footy pitch, it's very important. 

[Matthew Le God]

19 minutes ago, egg said:

If you need to ask what a captain does and assume that people think that it involves lots of shouting, you plainly don't understand the role of a captain. On a computer screen you can't see the significance, but on a real footy pitch, it's very important. 

I did not say it involved shouting. In any case he is clearly vocal. Just because he sounds like a choir boy in interviews it doesn't make him a bad captain.

[Matthew Le God]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

It is simple, and I won't take this thread off topic talking about it. JWP plays to his role in that system. JWP is the topic. 

If you think it is Hasenhuttl's tactics with multiple pressing triggers and switches depending on circumstances as they change during games are simple, what team do you consider to have a complicated system?

Edited 27 March, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[SKD]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

What do you think a captain should do, and how do you know Ward-Prowse isn't doing it?

This isn't the 1980s where a captain simply needed to shout the loudest!

Think a team with Roy Keane as captain loses 9-0... twice.....? 

[egg]

7 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

If you think it is Hasenhuttl's tactics with multiple pressing triggers and switches depending on circumstances as they change during games are simple, what team do you consider to have a complicated system?

I've said I'm not taking the thread off topic mate, and here you go wanting to talk about other teams tactics. Stick to JWP on a JWP thread. 

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, SKD said:

Think a team with Roy Keane as captain loses 9-0... twice.....? 

He played for better teams than us, so comparison falls down.

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

I've said I'm not taking the thread off topic mate, and here you go wanting to talk about other teams tactics. Stick to JWP on a JWP thread. 

This is about JWP, you think his role is simple. I was explaining how it isn't. And asked if his role is simple what players or teams you think use complicated roles?

[SKD]

1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

He played for better teams than us, so comparison falls down.

Debatable that the Republic of Ireland are better than us, to be fair.

It’s about leadership and authority. JWP sets a great example is a model professional but I doubt he has much authority in the dressing room. If he tried digging you out, you’d laugh at him. 

[Matthew Le God]

12 minutes ago, SKD said:

Think a team with Roy Keane as captain loses 9-0... twice.....? 

Roy Keane played in a team that lost 6-3 to Saints a league game after his club lost 5-0 the game before. He got himself sent off for being too aggresive, so hardly a great leadership!

Edited 27 March, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

This is about JWP, you think his role is simple. I was explaining how it isn't. And asked if his role is simple what players or teams you think use complicated roles?

You're a pain in the arse mate. Our tactics are simple. JWP role is simple. I couldn't give a monkeys about other teams or clubs, this thread isn't about them.

[Matthew Le God]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

You're a pain in the arse mate. Our tactics are simple. JWP role is simple. I couldn't give a monkeys about other teams or clubs, this thread isn't about them.

You made a claim they are simple, it is not unreasonable to ask what would count as complicated!? Have you seen our training pitches in a recent club video? They are covered in extra lines for the different roles, pressing triggers and situations we use. That is far from simple.

Edited 27 March, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

You made a claim they are simple, it is not unreasonable to ask what would count as complicated!? Have you seen our training pitches in a recent club video? They are covered in extra lines for the different roles, pressing triggers and situations we use. That is far from simple.

Bless. You'd have a row with a tree mate. 

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

You made a claim they are simple, it is not unreasonable to ask what would count as complicated!? Have you seen our training pitches in a recent club video? They are covered in extra lines for the different roles, pressing triggers and situations we use. That is far from simple.

You need to get laid.

[Matthew Le God]

Just now, egg said:

Bless. You'd have a row with a tree mate. 

A question is not a row.

[egg]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

You need to get laid.

Amen to that. 

[egg]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

A question is not a row.

But questions to people who have said they don't want to play are daft. Give it up mate and enjoy the weekend. 

[Verbal]

MLG winding people up who say dumbass things is the best entertainment on here. 

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, Verbal said:

MLG winding people up who say dumbass things is the best entertainment on here. 

Amen!

[SKD]

11 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Roy Keane played in a team that lost 6-3 to Saints a league game after his club lost 5-0 the game before. He got himself sent off for being too aggresive, so hardly a great leadership!

Not 9-0 though pal is it. 
 

Imagine trying to argue that Keane, who won it all at club level, wasnt a great leader and captain hahahahahaha

Edited 27 March, 2021 by SKD

[SKD]

4 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

You need to get laid.

And some Vitamin D wouldn’t go a miss. 

[Matthew Le God]

28 minutes ago, SKD said:

Think a team with Roy Keane as captain loses 9-0... twice.....? 

 

16 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Roy Keane played in a team that lost 6-3 to Saints a league game after his club lost 5-0 the game before. He got himself sent off for being too aggresive, so hardly a great leadership!

 

5 minutes ago, SKD said:

Not 9-0 though pal is it. 

A team with players of the quality of Man Utd at the time collapsing 5-0 and 6-3 a week later is comparable to us losing 9-0. Keane played the second game and led by example by getting sent off!

Edited 27 March, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Matthew Le God]

7 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

You need to get laid.

 

3 minutes ago, SKD said:

And some Vitamin D wouldn’t go a miss. 

Sex on a beach?

[SKD]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

 

 

A team with players of the quality of Man Utd at the time collapsing 5-0 and 6-3 is comparable to us losing 9-0. Keane played the second game and led by example by getting sent off!

No it’s absolutely not. 9-0 is a record defeat. It’s happened twice. Not even San Marino lost to England 9-0 and think of the gap in quality there. 

Plenty of teams lose 5/6-0, only 2 have ever lost 9-0 in the premier league. the reason it never happens it’s because it’s fucking appalling and most teams shut up shop about 5/6-0 down. 

[S-Clarke]

This was actually a decent debate until MLG got involved. Derailed it.

[Matthew Le God]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

This was actually a decent debate until MLG got involved. Derailed it.

Think you will find it was not me that resorted to petty personal insults. All I did was ask questions.

[Matthew Le God]

4 minutes ago, SKD said:

No it’s absolutely not. 9-0 is a record defeat. It’s happened twice. Not even San Marino lost to England 9-0 and think of the gap in quality there. 

Plenty of teams lose 5/6-0, only 2 have ever lost 9-0 in the premier league. the reason it never happens it’s because it’s fucking appalling and most teams shut up shop about 5/6-0 down. 

We we talking about leadership. Keane's team of superstars had lost 5-0 the previous match. He comes into the side, gets sent off and his team of winners loses 6-3 to a struggling team.

[S-Clarke]

6 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Think you will find it was not me that resorted to petty personal insults. All I did was ask questions.

A normal person would have said.

''I don't agree with your claim that he's not a captain. A captain for me is x, y z, and I think he has those attributes'.

All you did was attack the views of people who didn't feel he was a good captain. You didn't offer your own opinion as to what you feel a good captain is, you just keep asking others the question which wasn't actually adding to the debate. Your responses and questions are more often than not designed to antagonise people.

Back to the actual debate, I personally feel leadership is one area he struggles. I don't think you want captains to scream and shout per say, but what you want to see from a captain is someone who stands up and you notice them in the bad times - they lead by example through their ability and don't hide away into a box if the team is struggling etc.

That's my only criticism of JWP, like a lot of this squad, when the going gets tough they shrink away into their own little bubbles and you don't really notice them. I don't think that's amazing leadership.

Edited 27 March, 2021 by S-Clarke

[Mosin]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

You're a pain in the arse mate. Our tactics are simple. JWP role is simple. I couldn't give a monkeys about other teams or clubs, this thread isn't about them.

https://www.coachesvoice.com/james-ward-prowse-southampton-ralph-hasenhuttl/

 

 

[TWar]

It's not a very satisfying answer but I think a players leadership qualities isn't something that can be accurately discussed. Honestly I think the only people who know how much impact JWP has as a leader is the other players, it is almost impossible to parse out his impact on things, Ralphs impact on things, another particularly vocal player ect. Maybe he's great as a leader and was instrumental in our great run and the shit run now has nothing to do with him. Maybe he is a shit leader and the great run was in spite of him and his lack of leadership is whats hurting us right now. I don't think we will ever know.

One interesting thing I will say, I was listening to the Peter Crouch podcast (well worth a listen if you haven't yet) and he spoke a little on the changing role of a captain and he said that the "guy who yells a lot" captain is really going out of style and the best captains set an example with their actions and workrate, and JWP's workrate is phenomenal. The real yelling at the players role tends to come from the manager, generally. The other thing said on that podcast was that fans like it when players are very talkative on the pitch as it seems like leadership but from a players point of view if players are being super chatty then normally it's because something is going majorly wrong so players see a team talking a lot as a sign that they are on the ropes. Owing to this I wouldn't really hold the fact he isn't barking orders at our fullbacks as a massive negative either.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

He played for better teams than us, so comparison falls down.

He played for Forest when they  were relegated, so your post falls down. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Captains don’t duck out of the way when the ball is going to hit them in the face. I’d have stripped him of the honour after that. You can’t have a bottle job leading the troops. 

[Matthew Le God]

37 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

He played for Forest when they  were relegated, so your post falls down. 

Nope yours does! You have managed a self defeating post there. They were relegated! Plus he was also a youngster at the time, not the captain.

[Saint Garrett]

4 hours ago, JustinSFC said:

I'm done on this but I'll settle for:

Statistically he's the "best in the world" but global fan opinion of literally everyone except some Saints fans is he isn't and wouldn't even enter their heads without serious thought.

If I’m honest, actually I think he is getting to the point where people say, he is the best in the league at free kicks. And possibly up there with the best in the world. You can make a case for a bunch of players, though I wouldn’t put Ronaldo in that argument as I simply don’t think he’s that good at them. Messi however is much more comparable with his technique. 

[Matthew Le God]

7 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The  hyperbole is ridiculous right across the board. We top the league for all of about 20mins and it starts, the over exaggeration of Ralph is bizarre, a few pages of the Ings thread had some claiming he was one of our best ever strikers and now we have JWP being called superb, the best in the world at free kicks, and deserving of a massive move. It’s a wonder that we’re in the bottom half of the table with such great talents at the club.

 1) How often does he play a killer pass, it’s sideways backwards all the time. 2) Stats don’t tell the story, the reason he doesn’t give the ball away is he never takes a risk and therefore never really creates anything away from free kicks. How often does he make a forward run behind the oppositions back 4. How often does he run with the ball and beat a man or get us quickly up the pitch. More importantly, how often does he disrupt play, stop the opposition from playing and smash a few. 2) Without OR in there he looks like a little boy lost defensively and he’s a poor poor captain. He wouldn’t get anywhere near a “best side we’ve had since promotion”. He’s doing better than he ever has done before, but was starting from a low base. If you took Rickie Lambert or Matts free kicks away, they’d still get in the side, I doubt Prowse would, or if he did, we’d be in scapegoat territory. Nice lad, good son in law material, honest pro, but midtable player. 

1) His key pass stats are very good, as is the number of successful progressive passes. Bizarre you fixate on the other ones, which in any case don't automatically equal a negative. Recycling the ball until an opportunity arises is sensible.

2) Yes they do, and it is a very different one to your claims. Why are you dismissive of stats? Why do you value unsubstantiated judgements over stats?

3) That is nonsense, his defensive stats are superb for a central midfielder.

[Charlie Wayman]

On 26/03/2021 at 14:41, Barsiem said:

Is JWP a £50m player?  No

Should we be selling someone like JWP for less than £50m?  No!

JWP is great for teams like us.  He’s a very good Premier League player, but is not good enough to make the first team of the top 6/7.  We should never sell for anything other than a stupid offer, as for the money we raise from his sale otherwise won’t be enough to effectively replace him.

You should post more often. Succinct, nutshell, realistic, common sense - a most unusual recipe on here.

[Matthew Le God]

On 26/03/2021 at 14:41, Barsiem said:

Is JWP a £50m player?  No

Is not good enough to make the first team of the top 6/7.  

 

49 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

You should post more often. Succinct, nutshell, realistic, common sense - a most unusual recipe on here.

He is wrong though, Ward-Prowse in 2021 on a contract until 2025 is worth £50m+. We've seen fullbacks like Wan-Bissaka get sold by Crystal Palace for £50m. He would be an improvement on a number central midfielders for 'top 6/7' teams.

[JustinSFC]

1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

He is wrong though, Ward-Prowse in 2021 on a contract until 2025 is worth £50m+. We've seen fullbacks like Wan-Bissaka get sold by Crystal Palace for £50m. He would be an improvement on a number central midfielders for 'top 6/7' teams.

Nobody is paying £50m large for James Ward-Prowse 5 year contract or not.

He'll be looked at by the top 6 as a squad player and none of them outside of Manchester City are paying that and I doubt even City would.

For £50m quid, at that level, there'd be serious options beyond James Ward-Prowse.