Abuse of refs

[sydney_saint]

I think we all agree that there is an enormous issue with the standard of refereeing. There are a few issues around this. One is, imo, Mike Riley who has only been utterly incompetent in the top role, and was never a very good ref himself. Then there has been the issue of some grossly incompetent refs (Mason) and some power and attention seeking (Mike Dean). However none of this really gets down to the real issue is that the standards of refs are just not good enough, and no amount of getting red faced and bellowing into a tv screen is going to change that.

I notice today that there has been a report into the high levels of abuse that refs receive at grassroots level. To me, this is where the real issue is. We don't have the talent pool of refs, because far too many talented refs quit before they even get going. When I was much younger, I was fast tracked to officiate higher level games, along with a cohort of 4 others. Within 2-3 years, all but one had not just quit the program, but had quit refereeing altogether. The one who continued was a power driven utter ego-maniac who seemed to relish being the pantomime villain, who seemed to have very little love or understanding of the game like the rest of us. 

I get frustrated at all the anger directed at refs, when in many cases their incompetence is not their fault. Because they shouldn't even be there in the first place. It's like getting angry at our bunch of youngsters that got relegated from the Championship. Those youngsters shouldn't even have been in the squad , let alone the first team, and note how the fans rightfully turned their anger towards the way we were managed at the time, particularly Lowe. 

I get pissed off at the pundits who lay into the officials every week. Not only are they not suggesting any solutions to the problems (which they are paid to be as pundits), but they are normalising that it is okay to abuse refs. For the life of me I will never know what possesses a full grown adult to yell at a 16 year old doing their best as they referee their 9 year old. But it absolutely happens. And it is impacting our game, because I do not believe that until it stops that standards will improve. We need the biggest catchment of refs we possibly can, and the current standards are harming the game.

So I guess I just wanted to open a thread where people can discuss options to improve ref standards, rather than just saying they are all a bunch of corrupt wankers. Cos I don't see how that shit improves anything. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61425471

[Toussaint]

I am always dismayed at how the 4th official has to deal with managers screaming in their ears, that should be stopped for starters. Secondly, I think there needs to be a punishment between a yellow and a red, such as a 10 minute sin bin. Yellow is too soft for a professional foul breaking up an attack in my opinion, it would also be a good cool down for anyone chasing the ref around the pitch screaming in his ear. Just a couple of thoughts, if we got it right at the top you hope the rest would follow.

We could learn a lot form rugby where dissent is not tolerated and "penalties" are given. As for kids football, god knows, some of he parents are utter yobs, but they are probably think they are justified as that is how some of their bratty heros behave. 

[jawillwill]

43 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

When I was much younger, I was fast tracked to officiate higher level games, along with a cohort of 4 others. Within 2-3 years, all but one had not just quit the program, but had quit refereeing altogether. The one who continued was a power driven utter ego-maniac who seemed to relish being the pantomime villain, who seemed to have very little love or understanding of the game like the rest of us. 

I think part of the issue at grass roots level, is attitudes like this. There's a lot of players /parents who seem to think they know best.

Whilst I don't know the exact details of this particular person, I suspect,  rather than being an ego-maniac, he was probably just somebody who was applying the rules of the game to his best ability. I doubt many referees get in to the job purely to piss people off.

As a player/spectator/fan, try not to take refereeing decisions so personally and/or seriously.

Having said all that, there is occasionally justification for calling the ref a wanker. 

[jawillwill]

Also, at professional level, put mics on the refs (and make public) and retrospectively ban for any abuse recorded. Probably will be solved within a few weeks.

[stevegrant]

I find all the talk about radical new ideas pretty frustrating - the Laws of the Game already cover all of this, but they are never enforced by referees in the professional game. That has a drip-down effect where players in semi-pro and amateur football see pro players hurling all sorts of abuse at officials unchallenged and they think it gives them carte blanche to do the same.

If officials in the professional game started enforcing the laws when it comes to abuse and dissent, the grassroots game would soon improve.

The FA keeps trying things like their Respect campaign, but the framework already exists to fix the problem. They just have to have the will to use the powers they already possess. Unfortunately the PL and PGMOL issues guidance to referees every year that there's to be a "light touch" approach as they want the star players to be on the pitch as much as possible for the "brand" 

[Piran]

Well said sydney-saint!

I played local football (Hampshire League and Southampton Senior League, as they were then) until the early '80s, and then started watching local football after a decade or so break, when I moved into a house overlooking the local playing fields. Two things really struck me about the games - one was the number of young men running around with beer bellies, and the other was the amount of abuse that the refs were receiving from the players. My belief is that it was players copying what they saw on the tele. My overriding feeling was "Why on earth do the refs do the job?". I know I wouldn't!

[sydney_saint]

21 minutes ago, jawillwill said:

I think part of the issue at grass roots level, is attitudes like this. There's a lot of players /parents who seem to think they know best.

Whilst I don't know the exact details of this particular person, I suspect,  rather than being an ego-maniac, he was probably just somebody who was applying the rules of the game to his best ability. I doubt many referees get in to the job purely to piss people off.

As a player/spectator/fan, try not to take refereeing decisions so personally and/or seriously.

Having said all that, there is occasionally justification for calling the ref a wanker. 

Fair point. This person in particular ended up in jail for abusing women, so he was a proper wanker. I just always found it interesting how he was the only one of our cohort who managed to stick with the reffing, when the rest of us just quit. For me and two others, it was simply cos we were fed up of the abuse. 

[sydney_saint]

19 minutes ago, stevegrant said:

I find all the talk about radical new ideas pretty frustrating - the Laws of the Game already cover all of this, but they are never enforced by referees in the professional game. That has a drip-down effect where players in semi-pro and amateur football see pro players hurling all sorts of abuse at officials unchallenged and they think it gives them carte blanche to do the same.

If officials in the professional game started enforcing the laws when it comes to abuse and dissent, the grassroots game would soon improve.

The FA keeps trying things like their Respect campaign, but the framework already exists to fix the problem. They just have to have the will to use the powers they already possess. Unfortunately the PL and PGMOL issues guidance to referees every year that there's to be a "light touch" approach as they want the star players to be on the pitch as much as possible for the "brand" 

This is a really interesting point, and I have always been curious why it isn't enforced much at the top level. I would love to know why. Is it because they feel that pissing off the players and managers would have too heavy an impact on the EPL 'brand'? Is it because they don't feel they have the support from the media and FA if they do? I would love to know why.

Although it only helps to a certain extent. The Laws of the Game would help with onfield abuse. But if pundits, fans and the media continue to hurl out abuse, then that behaviour will still continue to the grassroots. It still won't stop old Joe on the touchline hurling abuse at a 17 year old for making a wrong decision (and refs are allowed to make mistakes).

[Ted Bates Statue]

Many sports have trouble with poor decision-making at umpiring level but it seems only football tolerates tantrums at the ref. Rugby draws the most comparisons, although I have a suspicion that this has a lot to do with the referee being the only one on the pitch who has a genuine grasp as to what the hell is going on during a rugby match, so in those circumstances the players are more predisposed to defer to the man in the middle. Conversely you have football where every idiot has a different opinion and is confident enough to be vocal about it.

The attitudes to football refereeing are determined at the top. There is too much leniency towards poor behaviour, which forms a vicious circle with incompetence as they know on some level that the anger is warranted. I remember there was talk of tightening standards in the PL at the start of a season around 15 years ago but nothing came of it. An image of a young Rooney going berserk at the ref springs to mind. It all trickles down the pyramid and grassroots, as shown in the article and sydney_saint's observations.

If there was serious will to change things, I reckon it would change pretty fast. I'm aware that sin bins were being trialled at grassroots level before the pandemic but haven't heard much since then. Guessing that we are still some way off from using them in the professional game.

Even without resorting to orange cards, if the PL really wanted to elevate its image beyond the occasional 'best league in the world' taglines, then an overhaul of refereeing talent followed by a zero tolerance stance could really shake the sport up for the better.

 

[John D]

Some of the abuse is horrific.  I've seen grown men swearing and threatening 14/15 year kids who are starting out as refs.  This was at an U12 girls match. 

At a game last week a 12 year old swore and threatened the ref after he told the coach to remove them from play for a two footed lunge on another player.

The FA needs to take firm action against the clubs and put it on them to enforce discipline. At grassroots level if one player / coach or supporter steps out of line then the entire club (all their teams)  should be banned for next weeks matches.  

[Lord Duckhunter]

The problem with local refs is most of them are fucking pony. They clearly don’t deserve to be abused physically or verbally, but fuck me some of them are right planks. Wanting to be a ref should automatically ban you from being one, as nobody with any sense would do it. 

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The problem with local refs is most of them are fucking pony. They clearly don’t deserve to be abused physically or verbally, but fuck me some of them are right planks. Wanting to be a ref should automatically ban you from being one, as nobody with any sense would do it. 

So what? This is only a matter of your opinion. Most players haven't got a clue about the Laws of the Game and if they win a free kick it's the only thing they're going to get going for them all weekend.

[Turkish]

13 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The problem with local refs is most of them are fucking pony. They clearly don’t deserve to be abused physically or verbally, but fuck me some of them are right planks. Wanting to be a ref should automatically ban you from being one, as nobody with any sense would do it. 

I have to ref kids football, kids of 9 and 10 years old at the moment. I've not had any abuse probably because i'm a 6 foot 15 stone skinhead that would be able to snap most of the snobby parents where we live in half. The kids are fine as long as you're firm and consistent, some refs have got abuse and been called names but i stamp any aruging back out straight away with a point at the whistle and a glare. Maybe we should look to get more decent lads that wont stand for any abuse as refs than people that look like accountants and moderators on football forums?

[Dman]

8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I have to ref kids football, kids of 9 and 10 years old at the moment. I've not had any abuse probably because i'm a 6 foot 15 stone skinhead that would be able to snap most of the snobby parents where we live in half. The kids are fine as long as you're firm and consistent, some refs have got abuse and been called names but i stamp any aruging back out straight away with a point at the whistle and a glare. Maybe we should look to get more decent lads that wont stand for any abuse as refs than people that look like accountants and moderators on football forums?

It’s like the police, when the law is no longer feared, the respect is gone. 

You need to have a bit about you to be a ref, either in chat or physique. When you’ve got neither, you’re in for a hiding.. sometimes literally. 

[CWD]

I played hockey to a fairly high youth level. Any dissent, and the umpire would simply and silently move the free hit 10 yards closer to your goal. Stopped the mouthy little shits pretty quickly.

[sydney_saint]

40 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I have to ref kids football, kids of 9 and 10 years old at the moment. I've not had any abuse probably because i'm a 6 foot 15 stone skinhead that would be able to snap most of the snobby parents where we live in half. The kids are fine as long as you're firm and consistent, some refs have got abuse and been called names but i stamp any aruging back out straight away with a point at the whistle and a glare. Maybe we should look to get more decent lads that wont stand for any abuse as refs than people that look like accountants and moderators on football forums?

Well um, thanks for the contribution i guess. So your answer is to get people over 6ft tall, who are already fully grown adults, who can intimidate children into not arguing back? So shrink the reffing pool into an even tinier amount?

The point is that it is many young referees who are getting abused and quitting. These are the refs that we want to encourage, as they are the ones who could make the top level. Not you picking up the whistle later on in life. And yeah, they may not have your 'life experience' to be able to handle it that well. But also, why should they?

 

 

 

[sydney_saint]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

So what? This is only a matter of your opinion. Most players haven't got a clue about the Laws of the Game and if they win a free kick it's the only thing they're going to get going for them all weekend.

Also, I don't understand why the players at that level expect perfect refs. Of course you are gonna make mistakes, in the same way that a player is gonna misplace a simple 5 yard pass or topple over their ass whilst running for the ball. 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, sydney_saint said:

Well um, thanks for the contribution i guess. So your answer is to get people over 6ft tall, who are already fully grown adults, who can intimidate children into not arguing back? So shrink the reffing pool into an even tinier amount?

The point is that it is many young referees who are getting abused and quitting. These are the refs that we want to encourage, as they are the ones who could make the top level. Not you picking up the whistle later on in life. And yeah, they may not have your 'life experience' to be able to handle it that well. But also, why should they?

 

 

 

It's not a question of intimidating children, stamp on the arguing back from the start and be firm and consistent but also fair and approachable. You dont have to be like a little hitler but that approach generally nips any on pitch aggro in the bud. 

At grass roots level it comes down to the leagues and the clubs to sort out the behaviour of their players, parents or supporters. At the club i coach at and in the league we are in we have very strict rules of what isnt acceptable. Parents have to agree to a code of conduct when they sign their kid up, have to stand behind respect barriers, not shout at the ref or players etc. We've had to tell a couple of parents they aren't welcome due to their behaviour, if they dont like it then we point to what they agreed to when they joined the club and if they dont like it then they are not welcome If that means they take their child to another club so be it. You tend to find that usually sorts out the issue. Unfortunately it seems a lot of clubs dont have the same set of rules. 

 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It's not a question of intimidating children, stamp on the arguing back from the start and be firm and consistent but also fair and approachable. You dont have to be like a little hitler but that approach generally nips any on pitch aggro in the bud. 

At grass roots level it comes down to the leagues and the clubs to sort out the behaviour of their players, parents or supporters. At the club i coach at and in the league we are in we have very strict rules of what isnt acceptable. Parents have to agree to a code of conduct when they sign their kid up, have to stand behind respect barriers, not shout at the ref or players etc. We've had to tell a couple of parents they aren't welcome due to their behaviour, if they dont like it then we point to what they agreed to when they joined the club and if they dont like it then they are not welcome If that means they take their child to another club so be it. You tend to find that usually sorts out the issue. Unfortunately it seems a lot of clubs dont have the same set of rules. 

 

My lad plays in the Eastleigh mini league, he's played since he was six and for the three clubs he's played for I've had to sign what they call the fair play charter, which is pretty much what you have described. I've heard of some clubs being threatened with being kicked out of the league because of parents behaviour 

[Whitey Grandad]

27 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It's not a question of intimidating children, stamp on the arguing back from the start and be firm and consistent but also fair and approachable. You dont have to be like a little hitler but that approach generally nips any on pitch aggro in the bud. 

At grass roots level it comes down to the leagues and the clubs to sort out the behaviour of their players, parents or supporters. At the club i coach at and in the league we are in we have very strict rules of what isnt acceptable. Parents have to agree to a code of conduct when they sign their kid up, have to stand behind respect barriers, not shout at the ref or players etc. We've had to tell a couple of parents they aren't welcome due to their behaviour, if they dont like it then we point to what they agreed to when they joined the club and if they dont like it then they are not welcome If that means they take their child to another club so be it. You tend to find that usually sorts out the issue. Unfortunately it seems a lot of clubs dont have the same set of rules. 

 

back in the days when I used to be still active I got chatting to a young mum who said that she really enjoyed having a go at the ref when her young lad was playing. I told her that her behaviour was shameful and she just said "It's all part of the fun innit?"

[Turkish]

15 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

My lad plays in the Eastleigh mini league, he's played since he was six and for the three clubs he's played for I've had to sign what they call the fair play charter, which is pretty much what you have described. I've heard of some clubs being threatened with being kicked out of the league because of parents behaviour 

Yep that’s it, all incidents are reported to the league who then notify the club secretary. Also clubs get random visits from the league and FA to make sure they have all the correct things in place, respect barriers etc and watch the behaviour of parents and kids. It’s all taken very seriously 

[East Kent Saint]

Make it at top level that only captains can question Ref , all other players to stay 10 yds away on pain of yellow or sin bin . Ref to be miked up to explain decision to crowd /coaches as per American football .

[Sunglasses Ron]

I remember when I was a (not very good) Sunday league player.  Regularly being named as a substitute, I had the "pleasure" of being linesman and the abuse I got was ridiculous (both from the opposition and my fellow teammates!). 

One game was so bad that this bunch of thugs wanted to beat the living hell out of me after the game because I had the audacity to flag one of them offside, which they clearly where, despite them being about 8-0 up at the time.  I ended up having to run into a shop and hide behind the counter whilst the owner phoned the Police.

In summary, I don't know whether to admire refs or think they are utterly bonkers as there are absolute animals out there masquerading as footballers.

[stevegrant]

4 hours ago, Turkish said:

Yep that’s it, all incidents are reported to the league who then notify the club secretary. Also clubs get random visits from the league and FA to make sure they have all the correct things in place, respect barriers etc and watch the behaviour of parents and kids. It’s all taken very seriously 

It seems as if things are getting much better in the small-sided games, but then anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that it all goes to pot when they get onto the full size pitch at U11/U12 level.

In every league there's always that one team who take it all far too seriously, with that one parent running the team who thinks he's the next Pep Guardiola, and a handful of parents on the sidelines who are living their own failed footballing dream vicariously through their child.

[Turkish]

28 minutes ago, stevegrant said:

It seems as if things are getting much better in the small-sided games, but then anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that it all goes to pot when they get onto the full size pitch at U11/U12 level.

In every league there's always that one team who take it all far too seriously, with that one parent running the team who thinks he's the next Pep Guardiola, and a handful of parents on the sidelines who are living their own failed footballing dream vicariously through their child.

Yep, mixture of testosterone with the kids, the ones who play actually want to be there now rather than because their parents make them or their friends play so it becomes much more competitive. We have that issue now with the U11s where probably only 3 or 4 will carry on, it’s the same every season. However we play in a district league at the moment which is all mainly village teams. At U12s when it goes to 11 a side the 8 teams in the league merge to become 2 U11 teams and go and play in the district league with lots of teams from Harrogate York and Leeds. There is one team in that league which is like what you describe, kids are cocky little shits and coaches think they are something special and a few ex Leeds players have had kids go through the team, plus they market themselves very well so get a lot of sponsorship from local business. 
 

I can’t really comment on the ref situation above U11s at the moment but a friend of mine who coaches U13s said on of his got booked recently for calling the ref a twat. 🤣

Edited 11 October, 2022 by Turkish

[Viking Saint]

6 hours ago, CWD said:

I played hockey to a fairly high youth level. Any dissent, and the umpire would simply and silently move the free hit 10 yards closer to your goal. Stopped the mouthy little shits pretty quickly.

Similarly, I played rugby to a high level and now referee it. The 10m advance for any dissent is priceless, and players tend to get more pissed off with their own team mates for conceding ground than they do with the referee. That said, touchline abuse is becoming more widespread and it's hard to police as it's very difficult to identify individual culprits. Thankfully, the RFU and County Unions are very supportive of referees and don't hesitate to sanction clubs as a whole if they don't control their spectators.

[John Boy Saint]

There was something on Radio 5 last night about this, and a Lady was talking about her son being a ref, I think in the Stockport area. She said that the local FA group gave good support to the young refs as they know without the refs they have no games.

The one thing she said I thought should be made more of at the younger age group games. She was at a game her son was reffing, a few of the parents of the lads playing we’re giving the her son abuse from the touch line. She walked up to the mouthiest one and confronted him, he spouted a few choice words at her,  then she said - You see that yellow armband on his arm, do you know what that means - No - it signals that the ref is a minor, he is underage himself. You shouting obscenities at him as an adult is actually you abusing a minor. 

I think if more parents were made aware of the yellow armbands significance they might just make them think. 

[benjii]

15 hours ago, Toussaint said:

I am always dismayed at how the 4th official has to deal with managers screaming in their ears, that should be stopped for starters. Secondly, I think there needs to be a punishment between a yellow and a red, such as a 10 minute sin bin. Yellow is too soft for a professional foul breaking up an attack in my opinion, it would also be a good cool down for anyone chasing the ref around the pitch screaming in his ear. Just a couple of thoughts, if we got it right at the top you hope the rest would follow.

We could learn a lot form rugby where dissent is not tolerated and "penalties" are given. As for kids football, god knows, some of he parents are utter yobs, but they are probably think they are justified as that is how some of their bratty heros behave. 

Indeed. The authorities could make their own jobs a lot easier by actually enforcing the rules.

Shout at the ref/4th official - yellow.

Delay a free kick - yellow.

Leave the technical area - yellow.

Keeper holding the ball too long - yellow.

There are rules governing all these yet they are virtually never applied but could easily improve the level of authority and respect for the officials.

As to grass roots - unfortunately there are just too many bellends involved.

 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

I was watching the Arsenal Liverpool game on Sunday. I think Arteta spent more time out of the technical area in the 90 minutes than actually in it/

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I was watching the Arsenal Liverpool game on Sunday. I think Arteta spent more time out of the technical area in the 90 minutes than actually in it/

That’s the responsibility of the fourth official. Sadly they have very little option for sanctions.