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Midfield_General
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Serious question. Ralph’s under a lot of pressure at the moment for our poor form, but if you were him, what would you change to try and save your job? Has to be within the confines of what is actually possible given the players we have in the squad, Livramento and Lavia being out injured, the fact that the window is closed, etc. What do you think he could realistically do with the resources available to him that might help us get results against West Ham and Bournemouth? (And ‘resign’ doesn’t count!) 

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Stop trying to play Diallo as a '6' to start with, throw two players up top to provide Adams someone to 'support'. 

But most of all, just go back to basics. I know we have these 'principles' at the counter press, but if I'm honest this seems to have died a death - so if we're still trying to play that way then they're not listening, so just go back to basics.

 

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Think it starts by looking at what isn't working, and what is.

9 league games and we've conceded in all of them, so even if the actual individual defenders have improved from last season, clearly there is an issue with how the team is defending. Bazunu hasn't been brilliant but not sure changing the keeper helps, so the ideal is to limit the amount of clear chances we're conceding (which is high in my opinion). With Lavia out injured we don't have a capable midfield partner for JWP to do the defensive work that Romeu did and Romeo was doing this season, and we're so often leaving the centre backs exposed. 

I think the short-term answer is a move to a back 5 to shore up the defence. Without Lavia it seems the system that suits us best. One question is who you play at left back, where we seem to have no fixed option. I would argue Djenepo played the best so far this season, so either he or Larios. Perraud needs some time to get properly fit again.

Ahead of that you have JWP and AMN/Diallo as shuttling, progressive midfielders, with the instructions that they move the ball forward or wide where possible with the wing backs playing high in possession. Aribo then plays as a 10 with the ability to drift wide to get the ball. 

Up front you have Adams and A Armstrong, to hold the ball up and play on the line of the opposition defence respectively. 

When out of possession Aribo and Armstrong could split wide to mark full backs if needed, making it more a 5-4-1. 

Overall aims, get Aribo on the ball more, take defensive responsibility away from JWP so he can focus on his on the ball game, and stop conceding so many bloody goals.

In possesion:

-----------Bazunu-------------

-----ABK----DCC----Salisu-----

KWP----AMN----JWP---Djenepo

-------------Aribo-------------

----------Adams---Armstrong--

 

Out of possesion:

-----------Bazunu-------------

KWP-ABK--DCC--Salisu--Djenepo

Aribo----AMN----JWP---Armstrong

-------------Adams------------

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I'd play Lyanco at CDM, pring some aggression and ball winning capability to that position, I'm sure when he came here it was said he could play in defence or midfield? This would allow JWP to concentrate on what he does best, getting further forward and shooting from range or whipping in those deadly crosses. Maybe go 5 in mid with one up front, especially away or against the better sides, just until we can stop the rot. I'd play Che as lone striker with AA wide mid, Diallo would be nowhere near the starting lineup. 

 

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1 hour ago, Midfield_General said:

Serious question. Ralph’s under a lot of pressure at the moment for our poor form, but if you were him, what would you change to try and save your job? Has to be within the confines of what is actually possible given the players we have in the squad, Livramento and Lavia being out injured, the fact that the window is closed, etc. What do you think he could realistically do with the resources available to him that might help us get results against West Ham and Bournemouth? (And ‘resign’ doesn’t count!) 

Pick an 11 and stick with them for at least 2 or 3 games to give them a chance to gel. 

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It's an interesting question because I'm not sure Ralph can do anything now.  I get the feeling he could pick the perfect 11 and the perfect formation and the players still wouldn't perform because they're either not listening to him or so low on confidence (or a combination of both).  I'm not forgetting the squad isn't perfect BTW.

Restoring confidence and a winning mentality would make more of a difference than any formation or personnel changes.

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This is a good question as its easy to hate from the sidelines but what actually would we do.

Hmmm i think I would do this for next game given how often KWPs decided to stop blocking crosses and getting caught upfield the last 4 weeks but we need goals as well.

I want dynamic runners who can link up and be tricky in the midfield and fast runners ahead of them to work off che, I'd drop JWP as he's not been at it this season and I want to see Diallo pushing forward with Romeo behind.

                                 Gav

              ABK - Salisu - Caleta-Car 

KWP                     Lavia.                 Perraud

                  Diallo            Edozie

                         Che.  Mara

Benefit of this is as well 6 of the team were coached by someone else last season so know other ways to play

Edited by Convict Colony
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2 hours ago, Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan said:

Think it starts by looking at what isn't working, and what is.

9 league games and we've conceded in all of them, so even if the actual individual defenders have improved from last season, clearly there is an issue with how the team is defending. Bazunu hasn't been brilliant but not sure changing the keeper helps, so the ideal is to limit the amount of clear chances we're conceding (which is high in my opinion). With Lavia out injured we don't have a capable midfield partner for JWP to do the defensive work that Romeu did and Romeo was doing this season, and we're so often leaving the centre backs exposed. 

I think the short-term answer is a move to a back 5 to shore up the defence. Without Lavia it seems the system that suits us best. One question is who you play at left back, where we seem to have no fixed option. I would argue Djenepo played the best so far this season, so either he or Larios. Perraud needs some time to get properly fit again.

Ahead of that you have JWP and AMN/Diallo as shuttling, progressive midfielders, with the instructions that they move the ball forward or wide where possible with the wing backs playing high in possession. Aribo then plays as a 10 with the ability to drift wide to get the ball. 

Up front you have Adams and A Armstrong, to hold the ball up and play on the line of the opposition defence respectively. 

When out of possession Aribo and Armstrong could split wide to mark full backs if needed, making it more a 5-4-1. 

Overall aims, get Aribo on the ball more, take defensive responsibility away from JWP so he can focus on his on the ball game, and stop conceding so many bloody goals.

In possesion:

-----------Bazunu-------------

-----ABK----DCC----Salisu-----

KWP----AMN----JWP---Djenepo

-------------Aribo-------------

----------Adams---Armstrong--

 

Out of possesion:

-----------Bazunu-------------

KWP-ABK--DCC--Salisu--Djenepo

Aribo----AMN----JWP---Armstrong

-------------Adams------------

Didnt look at anyones team before I did mine and its funny we only agree on 5 players - i guess it shows how hard it is.

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And this thread highlights the biggest issue...different people want completely different things, but blame the manager for trying different things, because at the moment none of them work. 

He cannot win at the moment, because the players are simply not good enough, and we do not have a goal threat.

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Play 4231. Let S Armstrong play as an actual 10 instead of a Ralph 10, get two wide men alongside him and allow the full backs to overlap and overload, when sensible, instead of be our only width because the 10s are narrow. That way, should we get caught out, somebody is supporting the centre backs instead of us being wide open.

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13 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

And this thread highlights the biggest issue...different people want completely different things, but blame the manager for trying different things, because at the moment none of them work. 

He cannot win at the moment, because the players are simply not good enough, and we do not have a goal threat.

He’s not really trying anything though, just changes the lineup and hopes for the best, we haven’t had any clear cut tactics for a long time.

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14 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

And this thread highlights the biggest issue...different people want completely different things, but blame the manager for trying different things, because at the moment none of them work. 

He cannot win at the moment, because the players are simply not good enough, and we do not have a goal threat.

What are our tactics and game plan? How do 5 changes a game help players know what their partners are doing? 
Shouldn’t a top coach like Ralph find a formation and coach players to be better isn’t that what he is paid for?

Not having a go but the excuse of blaming players doesn’t sit with me.

Why drop Salisu v Everton? Then drops CC v City why? Perraud deemed not good enough to start v Everton and Larios was despite Moussa doing well then Perraud  starts v City.

AMN starts v Everton then not a minute at City if you were a player how would all that grab you?

Edited by Give it to Ron
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3 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

Why drop Salisu v Everton? Then drops CC v City why? Perraud deemed not good enough to start v Everton and Larios was despite Moussa doing well then Perraud  starts v City.

It seems to have escaped most people's attention that SR were present at the Everton match, so Ralph started with all of the summer signings except Lavia (injured) and Edozie. Whether that was because SR wanted to see them in action or whether Ralph wanted to put 2 fingers up at SR and say 'this is what you bought me & it isn't good enough" we'll never know. However, to me it is telling that it is the one and only time that they've all started a match.

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19 minutes ago, CamSaint said:

It seems to have escaped most people's attention that SR were present at the Everton match, so Ralph started with all of the summer signings except Lavia (injured) and Edozie. Whether that was because SR wanted to see them in action or whether Ralph wanted to put 2 fingers up at SR and say 'this is what you bought me & it isn't good enough" we'll never know. However, to me it is telling that it is the one and only time that they've all started a match.

If that is true (and we have no reason to believe it is) then it would be another reason to get rid. He is paid a lot of money to win football matches so I'm hoping he's not cutting off his nose to spite his face by not picking his strongest team to make some point to SR. Personally I don't think Ralph would be that stupid.

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5 hours ago, Brissysaint said:

He’s not really trying anything though, just changes the lineup and hopes for the best, we haven’t had any clear cut tactics for a long time.

How can you say he's not trying anything? 

We've played 4-2-2-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-5-2. He's tried Diallo and AMN at CM, he's tried Mara up front, he's tried Moi, Armstrong, Armstrong, Aribo in the attacking positions.  He's tried Larios instead of Perraud...you could argue he's tried too many different things. Nothing is working really, as the players are inferior to the oppositions on the whole.

 

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22 hours ago, Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan said:

Think it starts by looking at what isn't working, and what is.

9 league games and we've conceded in all of them, so even if the actual individual defenders have improved from last season, clearly there is an issue with how the team is defending. Bazunu hasn't been brilliant but not sure changing the keeper helps, so the ideal is to limit the amount of clear chances we're conceding (which is high in my opinion). With Lavia out injured we don't have a capable midfield partner for JWP to do the defensive work that Romeu did and Romeo was doing this season, and we're so often leaving the centre backs exposed. 

I think the short-term answer is a move to a back 5 to shore up the defence. Without Lavia it seems the system that suits us best. One question is who you play at left back, where we seem to have no fixed option. I would argue Djenepo played the best so far this season, so either he or Larios. Perraud needs some time to get properly fit again.

Ahead of that you have JWP and AMN/Diallo as shuttling, progressive midfielders, with the instructions that they move the ball forward or wide where possible with the wing backs playing high in possession. Aribo then plays as a 10 with the ability to drift wide to get the ball. 

Up front you have Adams and A Armstrong, to hold the ball up and play on the line of the opposition defence respectively. 

When out of possession Aribo and Armstrong could split wide to mark full backs if needed, making it more a 5-4-1. 

Overall aims, get Aribo on the ball more, take defensive responsibility away from JWP so he can focus on his on the ball game, and stop conceding so many bloody goals.

In possesion:

-----------Bazunu-------------

-----ABK----DCC----Salisu-----

KWP----AMN----JWP---Djenepo

-------------Aribo-------------

----------Adams---Armstrong--

 

Out of possesion:

-----------Bazunu-------------

KWP-ABK--DCC--Salisu--Djenepo

Aribo----AMN----JWP---Armstrong

-------------Adams------------

Our only fit comeptant defensive central midfielder is JWP. 

You won't stop conceded goals by taking him off defensive duties. ANM is currently a championship level central midfielder, and diallo is lower prem level. 

If you want saints to stop concededing, I actually think we have to deploy JWP as the anchor man until lavia is fit. We have no other viable options. 

Then play Armstrong and diallo in front of him in a three. I make no bones about it, this is an incredibly weak midfield for ball winning / possession football, but that is a clear and glaring recruitment failure. 

Then it's Adam Armstrong and aribo giving width, And che in the middle. 

Asking diallo to have the ball in the CDM spot is suicidal, he is too slow on the ball and gives it away in a key area. 

The failure to buy a good striker and cdm cover could well get us relegated. I have no faith that any other manager can come in and magically fix those issues as they stand. We need lavia back ASAP and for his return to be niggle free. 

Edited by Saint86
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10 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

How can you say he's not trying anything? 

We've played 4-2-2-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-5-2. He's tried Diallo and AMN at CM, he's tried Mara up front, he's tried Moi, Armstrong, Armstrong, Aribo in the attacking positions.  He's tried Larios instead of Perraud...you could argue he's tried too many different things. Nothing is working really, as the players are inferior to the oppositions on the whole.

 

Like I said, it’s mostly just shuffling people around, larios is a lb so it’s a natural replacement and the rest are all attackers so you’d hope they would get a chance playing an attacking role.
 

the tactics have stayed mostly the same, the 3 and the back was probably the only bold thing he’s tried and that was woeful and only lasted a game and a half.

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13 hours ago, Brissysaint said:

Like I said, it’s mostly just shuffling people around, larios is a lb so it’s a natural replacement and the rest are all attackers so you’d hope they would get a chance playing an attacking role.
 

the tactics have stayed mostly the same, the 3 and the back was probably the only bold thing he’s tried and that was woeful and only lasted a game and a half.

But the tactics haven't stayed the same? We've played at least 4 different formations so far this seasons. Some fans are having a go at him for changing too much.  The bottom line is we probably have the weakest squad in the league, with a big hole in a key position. (ST). 

Mara looks a million miles away from being a premier league starter right now.

Diallo & AMN look incapable of playing alongside JWP so far this season.

There isn't many of our team that would get in many other sides.

We've lost far too much experience from the squad, Romeu, Long, Redmond, Stephens, Bednarek, Forster all left this summer. (I'm not saying these players are good enough btw, it's just a huge amount of premier league experience out the door. Right now i'd probably put Long ahead of Mara and A Armstrong) 

There is no doubt that it's an incredibly tough job to be manager of Saints right now.

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23 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

The bottom line is we probably have the weakest squad in the league, 

Absolute nonsense.  You think our squad is weaker than Bournemouth's?  Fulham's? Brentford's? Leeds'? Forest's? All of those??

Yes we are missing a top striker but so are many teams in the PL.  It isn't an excuse for being utter dross every week. 

Brighton, who lets face it are a good model for us at the moment, last season had a top scorer of 8 goals.  Less than JWP and only one more than Che.  What's the difference? They had an effective manager who knew how to play to their strengths.  We have a manager who only knows how to play effectively one way, and it is a way we are largely ineffective at playing.  Yes he's trying other ways of playing, but he cannot actually access our team and consider how best to set them up, and then communicate that to the team. 

It's been 4 years, the buck stops with him, he needs to move on.  For both his & Saints sake.  I guess he's waiting for the payoff tbh, as it can't be any fun for him being at the club ATM.

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On 10/10/2022 at 14:54, Convict Colony said:

This is a good question as its easy to hate from the sidelines but what actually would we do.

Hmmm i think I would do this for next game given how often KWPs decided to stop blocking crosses and getting caught upfield the last 4 weeks but we need goals as well.

I want dynamic runners who can link up and be tricky in the midfield and fast runners ahead of them to work off che, I'd drop JWP as he's not been at it this season and I want to see Diallo pushing forward with Romeo behind.

                                 Gav

              ABK - Salisu - Caleta-Car 

KWP                     Lavia.                 Perraud

                  Diallo            Edozie

                         Che.  Mara

Benefit of this is as well 6 of the team were coached by someone else last season so know other ways to play

Lavia's injured, unfortunately...

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Put some money down in January and get minimum 3 signings to stand a chance of remaining in this league. 

 

Creative player 

Striker 

A Unit of a midfielder 

Looking at our squad and properly given it some thought. It's pretty lacklustre, lacking in experience, not cutting edge in attack or midfield is it anyone wonder we are where we are..... 

 

Wouldn't matter who we get in charge..... As I said squad needs additional strengthening..... 

People banging on about we had a great window..... What signing youth players that may potentially become better....

We need experienced heads to hit the ground running.... 

A striker should of been the 1st signing in......

Edited by ally_uk
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Based on current availability I'd go 4-3-3 as the biggest issue we have at the moment is the midfield being overrun.  My preference is Perraud at LB but the rest of the defence picks itself.  Midfield 3 of JWP, Diallo and AMN (get him fit quickly).  Attack of AA, Aribo and Adams.  Once Lavia is back he replaces AMN or Diallo, whichever isn't performing.  Go back to the high press with the front three plus one midfielder actively looking to keep that going until they get replaced with subs. A bench of McC, DCC, Lyanco, Larios, Moi, Stu, Mara, Walcott and whichever midfielder is dropped for Lavia should give us enough options depending on what is needed at that part of the game.

Obviously we need a striker who can actually put away chances and when we get him he will slot into the front three in place of either AA or Aribo, who will replace Walcott on the bench. but given what we have now I think that's the best option.

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FWIW I’d stick 3 up top and get them to cheat on (not) dropping back. Adams, Armstrong and AN Other from Aribo, Edozie and Mara. Quantity over quality so leave three threats up there.

Id have three in midfield; quantity over quality again until Lavia returns. JWP and two from Stu, Diallo and AMN.

Id rely on the full backs for width with cm to cover them when they attack. And should we somehow be winning with 20 minutes to go I’d replace a forward with a 3rd cb. 
Then come January I’d ask for the striker we all knew we needed in the summer and somehow missed.

 

Essentially I think we need to play some boring sh1t to try and sneak some unattractive points and get a bit of confidence. Won’t be pretty but until we have a holding midfielder, striker and creative player we're pretty hamstrung 

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On 10/10/2022 at 13:15, beatlesaint said:

Go back to the pressing game, be in the faces of the opposition, make it difficult for them. This tepid, ineffective style we are playing now makes us too easy to play against. 

I miss seeing the pressing game of earlier this year. Yes we got undone a few times, but we really managed to bully teams (particularly those around us) and even now, when we do press, we make opposition make mistakes. That press lead to goals.

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adapt a pressing game (not a lunatic 45 mins so knackered for the second half)

check player stats and if a forward player has not had one assist or goal for 9 games in a row - drop them

stop dropping players if doing well

stop playing around at the back until closed down and then hoof it to our 5'4 strikers

tell them to play through balls in final 3rd (sit them down and show them Mara's ball against leeds for 8 hrs solid on loop)

stop filling the bench with shit players that contribute nothing - give the space to Ballard etc

look at what worked in our periods when we done well and reintroduce the good bits

point out to JWP where the opposition goal is and tell him to pass that way (also show him endless vids of Bellingham and say if you pass forward like him you might start for England)

few for a start

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Positives - in all our home games so far this season, we've looked a decent attacking threat (in terms of creating chances). So whatever's happening there, don't change that

Defensively we've been poor. No clean sheets, avoidable goals being scored against us, it needs work. How I don't know, I'm not a tactician at all.

I don't think we're a million miles away from where we want to be - ignoring Spurs and Man City away, we've only lost by narrow margins, I don't think anything overly radical needs changing, just small things. Obviously confidence you have to assume is low so that's a factor - probably just need to start believing in ourselves again.

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Agree with most of the above - if Ralph is going down, surely he needs to do it based on his high press beliefs not the recent turgid nonsense. He’s bought a load of you’d presume full of energy nippers, has 5 subs in a big squad, and are coming up to a month off - but we don’t seem to be outrunning teams, no excuse there at all. The back line picks itself - no messing around with Caleta Car, Perraud at left back as best option. I’d go JWP and Armstrong mid two as the best duo of a bad bunch, then it gets very tough - I’d give Djenepo a go on the left and try AMN right (is it just me or do we seem to have 4 left sided wingers and one over the hill right sided one), both have played full back so should provide cover if the full backs want a rampage and have pace. Then I’d have Armstrong and Che up front.  Having to think about all that shows how weak the squad is - I’d rather not have Armstrong x2, AMN, Che, Djenepo in the 1st team - so half the side I’m picking I don’t really fancy !. Wonder if Ralf feels the same.

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14 hours ago, richardc said:

adapt a pressing game (not a lunatic 45 mins so knackered for the second half)

check player stats and if a forward player has not had one assist or goal for 9 games in a row - drop them

stop dropping players if doing well

stop playing around at the back until closed down and then hoof it to our 5'4 strikers

tell them to play through balls in final 3rd (sit them down and show them Mara's ball against leeds for 8 hrs solid on loop)

stop filling the bench with shit players that contribute nothing - give the space to Ballard etc

look at what worked in our periods when we done well and reintroduce the good bits

point out to JWP where the opposition goal is and tell him to pass that way (also show him endless vids of Bellingham and say if you pass forward like him you might start for England)

few for a start

you go get it girl GIF

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Probably all said above but we just don't hurt sides enough and we are so easy to play against. Very rarely do we see the ball played into the strikers feet and then offer a return, it either goes wide then back inside and start again. That's why for me we need a new coach and a new injection, i believe we have the players now to be a good side. I'm sure the owners know this, next two games are massive.   

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On 10/10/2022 at 15:13, Saint Garrett said:

And this thread highlights the biggest issue...different people want completely different things, but blame the manager for trying different things, because at the moment none of them work. 

He cannot win at the moment, because the players are simply not good enough, and we do not have a goal threat.

Have to disagree.

We all want fundamentally the same thing, to have a go, win the odd game, not get humiliating thrashings, to see some passion and have a bit of entertainment, or variations on those themes.

I largely blame the manager, why, because he is not us - mere fans from all walks of life, he is literally paid millions to solve these problems. I'm not going to repeat all of the crazy stuff he does as its been done to death. 

The squad isn't brilliant, but they could still achieve much more than they are with better coaching. As for the goal threat, if we could actually give our strikers a chance with a few decent balls into the box, stop fannying around until the opposition gets their whole team behind the ball, they may not be as bad as perceived.   

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On 10/10/2022 at 12:11, Midfield_General said:

Serious question. Ralph’s under a lot of pressure at the moment for our poor form, but if you were him, what would you change to try and save your job? Has to be within the confines of what is actually possible given the players we have in the squad, Livramento and Lavia being out injured, the fact that the window is closed, etc. What do you think he could realistically do with the resources available to him that might help us get results against West Ham and Bournemouth? (And ‘resign’ doesn’t count!) 

Serious reply... it's difficult to answer.    We failed to get an established striker in the summer, and clearly Mara isn't a quick fix and

for all their sweat and running  Adams ... and Adam still can't score in an empty net. Hopefully one of them can find some form PDQ.

 

Present alternatives?.....surely Theo Walcott must get some game time soon and knows how to score , and a few minutes of young Ballard

might not go amiss, (providing WHam don't scored too many ).  All stats. show that our losses are not due to bad defending, but a strike force

that has managed just 3 goals in 6 games, despite having had over 70 shots between them.

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On 10/10/2022 at 11:11, Midfield_General said:

Serious question. Ralph’s under a lot of pressure at the moment for our poor form, but if you were him, what would you change to try and save your job? Has to be within the confines of what is actually possible given the players we have in the squad, Livramento and Lavia being out injured, the fact that the window is closed, etc. What do you think he could realistically do with the resources available to him that might help us get results against West Ham and Bournemouth? (And ‘resign’ doesn’t count!) 

Stop playing his ridiculous 2 2 6 formation and let’s have some semblance of a midfield and defence!!!

The bloke is like an old record with the needle stuck - a tactical nutcase.

 

 

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