Defending under Ralph

[Mr Nimbus]

With the focus on the 3-5-2 formation at the start of the season, I have been thinking about our defending quite a lot over the last few days. It has been a real issue for us under Ralph and I was interested as to why people thought that was?

In the three full seasons under Ralph we have conceded 68,67 & 60 goals.

That shows no sign of stopping as we are at 6 already this season. Something he said at the forum was "it is becoming increasingly harder to keep clean sheets in the PL"

Whilst I agree with that, we seem to look like conceding in every game. I would never have us down to keep a clean sheet. So what is it?

Is it the quality of the defenders? The shape by having the full backs pushing on? Can Ralph just not organise a defence? A combination of it all?

For context when Sheffield United were relegated recently, we actually conceded more than them. On the flip side Wolves finished tenth last season and we outscored them. 

 

Edited 15 August, 2022 by Mr Nimbus
grammer

[Sarisbury Saint]

The problem is , no one knows what formation defensively we are playing, with or without the ball.

That goes for players, fans and more worryingly the manager.

[Danbert]

Lurch and McCarthy are now looking at finishing their careers as back-up keepers. None of the players we've moved on from our defence, The Great Dane, Cedric or Bertrand have done well at their new clubs, though to be fair to Bertrand, that's an age issue in his case. I think they've been a major reason we've conceded so many.

[Bad Wolf]

The last manager whom we were defensively sound under was sacked for that exact reason...

[Diabolus Ex Machina]

1 hour ago, Mr Nimbus said:

Is it the quality of the defenders? The shape by having the full backs pushing on? Can Ralph just not organise a defence? A combination of it all?

Simple answer, yes it's a combination of all these things. His preferred formation with fullbacks pushing forward and a high press from the midfield leaves easily exploitable gaps that end up regularly leaving the other team one-on-one with the CB's. That's ok if you have VVD back there, not so much if you have Bednarek. Also less of a problem if you're getting plenty of goals up the other end to cover for this but as time has gone on other teams seem to have cottoned on to our tactics and we seem to be pushed out to the wings more where it's difficult for us to produce chances as we don't have a dedicated target man up front for crosses.

Any alternative tactics attempted in the 3 1/2 seasons Ralph has been here have also been inconsistent at best. We're able to get some individual good results but never anything effective over a longer period. Add in our horrible record against set pieces as well and I genuinely think Ralph doesn't really know how to coach a defense properly - I think the press had been so successful before for him that he never had to divert from it and now that he's had to try he's been a bit lost. You'd think he'd had long enough to show some improvement but it just doesn't seem to be happening.

Perhaps the likes of Bazunu, ABK and Lavia will help (GK in particular has been a particularly weak area for us ever since we returned to the Prem) and I suppose we'll find out soon if we move back to that preferred 4-2-2-2 formation. My worry is that with the focus still being on the press rather than creating a solid backline that we'll still leave lots of gaps or be caught on the counter a lot (not to mention the set piece weakness could still very much be present).

Will just have to wait and see how it goes I suppose.

[Saint_clark]

Lack of quality in goal and at centreback, it's that simple. Give us Boruc, Fonte at 30 and even someone like Yoshida and we would have conceded far less. 

[Appy]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

Lack of quality in goal and at centreback, it's that simple. Give us Boruc, Fonte at 30 and even someone like Yoshida and we would have conceded far less. 

Yoshida who was a disgrace in the first 9-0? No thanks, don’t understand why he’s so fondly remembered, his presence was indicative of how we went downhill defensively

[Saint_clark]

3 hours ago, Appy said:

Yoshida who was a disgrace in the first 9-0? No thanks, don’t understand why he’s so fondly remembered, his presence was indicative of how we went downhill defensively

Still better than anything we have at CB now, not including ABKs potential.

 

[Charlie Wayman]

3 hours ago, Appy said:

Yoshida who was a disgrace in the first 9-0? No thanks, don’t understand why he’s so fondly remembered, his presence was indicative of how we went downhill defensively

You should have gone to Specsavers mate!  Maya was an outstanding leader on the field and was Japan Captain. Yes he was in the team that lost 9-0 but he was also in our successful teams under previous managers and served us well for many years.

JWP was in the 9-0 thrashings yet he is revered, would you say that he was a disgrace and that his presence is indicative of how we have gone downhill?

[Appy]

Just now, Charlie Wayman said:

You should have gone to Specsavers mate!  Maya was an outstanding leader on the field and was Japan Captain. Yes he was in the team that lost 9-0 but he was also in our successful teams under previous managers and served us well for many years.

JWP was in the 9-0 thrashings yet he is revered, would you say that he was a disgrace and that his presence is indicative of how we have gone downhill?

No because I rate JWP highly. 
 

I didn’t rate Yoshida from the time he arrived to when he left, he served us well because no one else wanted him. 
 

[StrangelyBrown]

4 hours ago, Mr Nimbus said:

With the focus on the 3-5-2 formation at the start of the season, I have been thinking about our defending quite a lot over the last few days. It has been a real issue for us under Ralph and I was interested as to why people thought that was?

In the three full seasons under Ralph we have conceded 68,67 & 60 goals.

That shows no sign of stopping as we are at 6 already this season. Something he said at the forum was "it is becoming increasingly harder to keep clean sheets in the PL"

Whilst I agree with that, we seem to look like conceding in every game. I would never have us down to keep a clean sheet. So what is it?

Is it the quality of the defenders? The shape by having the full backs pushing on? Can Ralph just not organise a defence? A combination of it all?

For context when Sheffield United were relegated recently, we actually conceded more than them. On the flip side Wolves finished tenth last season and we outscored them. 

 

At times we've been really hard to beat and have defended very well - the problem seems to me that we are really streaky and things either click or fail spectacularly. What I can't work out is whether Ralph comes up with something clever, it works for a bit until someone works us out and then he stubbornly sticks to the "winning" formula or just simply that our players are collectively prone to massive swings in confidence/form.

[Pilchards]

Any team that had Bednarek for 3 seasons would of conceded many too.

Watch his defending on Saturday and that explains it. Many others in the current team are not too sharp as they don’t watch runners. 
Only Everton have conceded more than us from corners last season and already we are off and running by leading the EPL.

 

PS Ralph tried to solve it on Saturday by playing defensive but it resulted in us having 9 (NINE) touches in the Leeds penalty area by time they scored a second. Glad we changed the formation because it don’t work. 

Edited 16 August, 2022 by Pilchards

[derry]

Football is a simple game overcomplicated by coaches with lesser teams trying to copy the more successful top teams. There is a very good reason this doesn't work, the superior quality and quantity of the expensive players in these teams against the poorer quality in the lower teams.

Firstly we have to recognise this and stop trying to play in a way we can't immitate which doesn't work. Secondly we should go back to the 4-2-2-2  (4-4-2) game we are familiar with with important exceptions. Dispense with the possession for possession sake passing around at the back, it doesn't work and exposes us more than it achieves. pass the ball forwards quickly. Be less adventurous with the full backs, if one goes forward it needs JWP to fill in behind, Lavia is perfect as he is and the other full back stays defensive. That gives us a decent foundation. The other four players are attackers.

Personally I'd like to see them try Adam Armstrong left and Joe Aribo right with Adams and Mara up front. The fundamental principal applies win the ball and get it to the forwards quickly, either a couple of passes forward, a long ball into space or over the top. These four can all get goals and Adams is a hard worker helping the others.We have to reward their runs so they need the ball quickly.  If we lose the ball we press to get it back. Possession for it's own sake is nonsense. The team can then move forward, Bella-Kotcha and Salisu are raw but quick and robust defenders helped by three defensively minded full backs and midfielders would be less exposed. 

It is also the job of the four forwards to close down defenders quickly and try and win the ball back. Defenders have to realise that if forwards make runs then give them the ball immediately or at worst the opportunity to win it. If they don't the forwards will stop making the runs. Which is happening all the time with the rediculous backwards possession.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, derry said:

Football is a simple game overcomplicated by coaches with lesser teams trying to copy the more successful top teams. There is a very good reason this doesn't work, the superior quality and quantity of the expensive players in these teams against the poorer quality in the lower teams.

Firstly we have to recognise this and stop trying to play in a way we can't immitate which doesn't work. Secondly we should go back to the 4-2-2-2  (4-4-2) game we are familiar with with important exceptions. Dispense with the possession for possession sake passing around at the back, it doesn't work and exposes us more than it achieves. pass the ball forwards quickly. Be less adventurous with the full backs, if one goes forward it needs JWP to fill in behind, Lavia is perfect as he is and the other full back stays defensive. That gives us a decent foundation. The other four players are attackers.

Personally I'd like to see them try Adam Armstrong left and Joe Aribo right with Adams and Mara up front. The fundamental principal applies win the ball and get it to the forwards quickly, either a couple of passes forward, a long ball into space or over the top. These four can all get goals and Adams is a hard worker helping the others.We have to reward their runs so they need the ball quickly.  If we lose the ball we press to get it back. Possession for it's own sake is nonsense. The team can then move forward, Bella-Kotcha and Salisu are raw but quick and robust defenders helped by three defensively minded full backs and midfielders would be less exposed. 

It is also the job of the four forwards to close down defenders quickly and try and win the ball back. Defenders have to realise that if forwards make runs then give them the ball immediately or at worst the opportunity to win it. If they don't the forwards will stop making the runs. Which is happening all the time with the rediculous backwards possession.

Agree with lots of this but the problem is that Ralph doesn't.