Tottenham 4-1 Saints - Match Thread

[ecurnew02]

As others have said above Ralph loves to play players out of position and it is reality that some players are not utility players and can play multiple positions. I think at this point it is simple, we need a change of scenario and a fresh face. I’ve been willing to give Ralph a long look and defended him longer than others but even with today being an expected loss the same problems arose again.

Edited 6 August, 2022 by ecurnew02

[OttawaSaint]

Can't see where our first point is coming from under RH. 

He's affectively killed the confidence or the team and a number of players. He looks like he hasn't got a clue.

[Baird of the land]

1 minute ago, OttawaSaint said:

Can't see where our first point is coming from under RH. 

He's affectively killed the confidence or the team and a number of players. He looks like he hasn't got a clue.

A buoyant Leeds after an opening win with Saints coming off a shambolic defeat isn't ideal.

[OttawaSaint]

Had we had a balanced formation and lineup and put in a decent shift but still lost I think we'd all be feeling quite optimistic. 

But the mess that we witnessed today leaves us knowing that all the "on the beach" etc. excuses from the end of last season were shite. A slow motion car crash.

Nothing has been learned, we're now trying to race that badly beaten up car missing a wheel and with badly duct taped on second hand components in this season's race...

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

I told you we'd get thrashed

I did not say otherwise 

[OttawaSaint]

Oh FFS , if this day wasn't bad enough, the forum jester is now awake...

[Wade Garrett]

The longer Wreck-It stays, the more likely we are to get relegated.

 

[whelk]

Horse racing result half an hour ago. Had I seen this was running I probably would have bet on it

 

[sadoldgit]

38 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

I don’t think you can hold up our defensive performance today as a positive benchmark of anything.

What made it more surprising was that Ketchup played so many minutes in pre season. He’s clearly got a long way to go but he’s also clearly not as horrendous as Valery. He would have had to have had a disaster to not be an improvement in Valery or Stephens.

As for Perraud, if he’s not fit he wouldn’t be in the bench and wouldn’t have come on.

There is a difference to being fit enough to come off the bench and fit enough to start. From what Ralph had been saying he is still building up to match fitness. As for Djnepo, he made our only goal and I didn’t think he played too badly. Spurs are a decent side. We are an average side. I don’t think anyone expected us to get a result today and hopefully, once we have concluded our transfer dealings, I think we will have enough to stay up. Not many pluses today but Lavia looks ok and Aribo will be a good player for us. 

[SaintZamboni]

Go back to the 4222 and let’s get playing again.

Put some pressure onto other teams and get our identity back. Otherwise, what’s the point in Hassenhuttl?

 

[Convict Colony]

If Ralph picks same team formations next game and gets no result them he should be on thin thin ice. I think he tried today's shit show to minimize goals v top teams which didn't factor in our fuckstick defence.

Next game I want 4-1-2-3 at least or 4-2-2-2 with the extra bodies attacking. 

I want Adams as the main CF, I want Stu and Mr tickle off the wings and I want Mara on the bench Incase we need to go 2 up top.

I of course want salisu and BK as CB monsters with KWP and Perraud on the flanks.

[saintant]

25 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said:

Can't see where our first point is coming from under RH. 

He's affectively killed the confidence or the team and a number of players. He looks like he hasn't got a clue.

Agree, he's turned us into a team that other sides look forward to playing against. I'm sure Leeds, Leicester, Chelsea and Man Utd will already be licking their lips.

[OttawaSaint]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

Agree, he's turned us into a team that other sides look forward to playing against. I'm sure Leeds, Leicester, Chelsea and Man Utd will already be licking their lips.

Players of other teams must have us circled on their calendars.

[saintant]

4 minutes ago, SaintZamboni said:

Go back to the 4222 and let’s get playing again.

Put some pressure onto other teams and get our identity back. Otherwise, what’s the point in Hassenhuttl?

 

I think the word 'otherwise' was superfluous.  

[kyle04]

Dear me, this happened last season after a poor start, Ralph out, relegation etc. A bottom 6 team beaten away  by a top 4/6 team, it's not like Saints often get anything from the first game anyway. Our only hope is we go on a good streak at some point, as last season when we did just enough to avoid being sucked in to the relegation dogfight.

We are a poor side with an indifferent manager, it's going to be a long season.

[Badger]

44 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

All summer to plan for it and almost a full squad to choose from, and he comes up with that absolute mess of a side. 

This is the most galling thing above the result as it offers little to be confident about over the next few months.

Not sure the "full squad" is anything to write home about, striker wise we're threadbare ( not even down to the "bare bones" as another manager used to say). 

To start the season seeing the names Stephens, Valery, Bednarek, Djenepo  involved is a piss poor reflection of recruitment policy. We simply don't recruit to enhance the starting eleven, just a collection of talented youngsters who might shine individually enough to sell on. Relegation in the process clearly doesn't register with the board.

Rasmus and SR come into this it seems with good reputation and ambition it seems. Wonder if the know how steep the challenge ahead is. 

29 minutes ago, Ivan Katalinic's 'tache said:

New coaching staff, new system, (some) new players, same manager, same comedy defending and poor overall team performance. Hmmm...

Always going to be a tough ask to go to Spurs and get something but why does it always have to end in a hiding?

Wasn't it one recruit, Ruben Selles,  plus a couple of internal promotions, Fleming being one. Promotion of the internal coaches worked well before with Gray and Wigley I recall.

 

At least as a positive this season, thanks to the dreadful kits some cretin has signed us up to, you'd be forgiven for thinking it doersn't look like Saints looking woeful. 

[saint michael]

41 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Christ, how did you feel under Branfoot and the second reign of Lowe then?

Some perspective please.

There was a lot more honesty that they were shit days… the overdrive today of spin where everything is going in the right direction when the football is complete shit. We’ve also got fans believing it…. Are you one of those?

[Badger]

In the dark days of Branfoot, we had MLT, Dodd and a few who gave a shit. 

We also had Monkou in the centre of defence. Flowers in goal. There were some positives to cling on to.

[SOTONSEASTSIDE]

Like Ralph, his teams are one dimensional. So they are easy to work out (last 3 years), just get infront. And you'll win easy.

While Ralph is still here, I refuse to renew my ST!!

Edited 6 August, 2022 by SOTONSEASTSIDE

[Rebel]

The only possible reason not to start with Adams today is surely because he is off - no other reason is acceptable. He’s our best striker of the 3 by some way right now. 

But if we are selling him we better have an incredible replacement - or 2 - lined up!

Ralph seems scared of losing which means we play defensively with players out of position and we end up losing because the defence can’t handle the constant pressure and collapse

Does he get the best out of the players we have? or the make the team greater than the sum of its parts?

the simple answer to both those questions is no

And why does he keep playing players our of position? it just doesn’t work for us

if it wasn’t for the 2 years left on his £7M a year contract I am pretty sure the new owners would have sacked him by now

It should have been 4-3-2-1 today with the players in their right positions

Bazunu

KWP  ABK Salisu Perraud

JWP  Romeu Lavia

Aribo Stu

Adams 

A strong midfield  to protect the defence  - and allow the full backs to get forward when attacking - a striker who can hold the ball and bring others in to play - and our 2 best AMs in their best positions 

 

 

 

[The Kraken]

27 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

There is a difference to being fit enough to come off the bench and fit enough to start. From what Ralph had been saying he is still building up to match fitness. As for Djnepo, he made our only goal and I didn’t think he played too badly. Spurs are a decent side. We are an average side. I don’t think anyone expected us to get a result today and hopefully, once we have concluded our transfer dealings, I think we will have enough to stay up. Not many pluses today but Lavia looks ok and Aribo will be a good player for us. 

We can have our own opinions of course, but Djenepo today IMO was very much below par. Yes, he made the goal for us, all credit to him for that. But that’s him in an attacking position. Playing as a wing back I feel he is a huge liability. His performance in the fourth goal conceded was abject. The second goal came from a big gap on our left flank, maybe not directly his fault but he was in part complicit.

As for Perraud, he has played in pre season. It’s not like he has just came back. He started against Monaco, which was two weeks ago, so your ‘not fit to start’ comment doesn’t really work as far as I’m concerned. I understand why Ralph feels he might have to go with Djenepo as Perraud is definitely on a route of recovery, but I’d have a half fit Perraud any day and let Djenepo come on as needs be. Aside from the goal I though Djenepo was what you’d expect, massively below average in defence and a bit of a maverick figure anywhere else. If he’s starting in this team in 3-4 weeks time, we’ve massively messed things up.

[woodsaint1]

A team consisting of Valery, Bednarek, Djenepo and Adam Armstrong....cant really expect anything other than a defeat. Theres 4 players who arent good enough at this level, nearly half our team

[The Cat]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Do you find our form from we tailed off last season to now, the humiliating nine nils, the bonkers team selections, etc, any less painful than the Branfoot days? 

Yes, definitely.

No one is protesting on the pitch, people aren't saying they want Hasenhuttl dead.

[beatlesaint]

Three of the four outfield players I never wanted to see in a Saints shirt again after last season made it onto the pitch today - Valery, Stephens and Redmond. The other one is injured. 
 

Depressing.

[Pamplemousse]

The performance was dreadful. The fourth goal in particular summed it up.

 

I'll be honest, I wasn't impressed with Bazunu. His kicking at times was pretty poor and McCarthy saves those first two goals.

 

Huge improvement needed, if we play like that against Leeds then we're in big, big trouble this season.

Edited 6 August, 2022 by Pamplemousse

[Cabrone]

No attack and the defence always has at least 1 howler in them every game.

Sorry to say but barring some inspired transfers this may be the season we go down.

Been circling for a while now. 

Where is the energy?

[Norm]

Just watched the 4 we conceded again, a third time. I’m lost for words how shocking the defence was. As for the OG🙄

[St. Ciervo]

August has a brutal lineup for us. I tend to be an optimist, but I foresee dropping the first 5 games. I expect many of you will get your manager change at that point. It is tough to argue against it.

[The Cat]

44 minutes ago, saint michael said:

There was a lot more honesty that they were shit days… the overdrive today of spin where everything is going in the right direction when the football is complete shit. We’ve also got fans believing it…. Are you one of those?

All clubs dress up performances or runs of poor form over social media. I don't pay much attention to it, just make my mind up from watching what I see.

[egg]

11 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Yes, definitely.

No one is protesting on the pitch, people aren't saying they want Hasenhuttl dead.

Cumulatively, the Ralph various Ralph debacles aren't far off it for me. The only bonus is that Ralph's brand of football isn't as soul destroying, although the results are. 

[Nemi]

We were always gonna lose the first game no matter who we played. Can’t just throw in a load of (promising, at least) youngsters into a pretty dire squad and expect instant improvements. 
 

I’ll wait to see how it plays out, but I really do worry about our approach this season. I feel like the owners, coaches think they’re playing Football Manager and they’re good enough and clever enough to compete in the Premier League with such a young squad with such a weak core of experienced players. I honestly don’t think Hasenhuttl's a terrible manager but I certainly don’t think he’s good enough to manage this squad to safety.

And that seems to be his key problem. He thinks he can nurture these talents and play in a way smart enough we outperform the quality of the squad, but he can’t. So every transfer window he wastes time barely improving the squad then acts surprised when we’re close to being relegated. He needs to realise he ain’t a terrible manager but he’s definitely not capable of improving players and getting the squad to play better than they are.
 

I reckon we probably have the 18th best squad and I think we’ll probably end up there.

[Dman]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

I reckon he’s had a fall out with Ralph, maybe he has asked to leave and been told no / not yet.

To not get on the pitch at all today is a joke. Definitely more to it than Ralph has said.

Ralph has a habit of falling out with players, especially strikers. So I wouldn’t at all be surprised. 

[AlexLaw76]

Not about the shape....

 

[Suhari]

I'm trying to be positive: we never win our opening match and Spurs will be pushing for top 4.

The lack of a proper striker really showed today: AA was hopeless: no movement and zero ability to hold up the ball. Powder puff upfront. Guess Adams is off? Why else wouldn't he have been picked (plus the few pre-season run outs).

Still have work to do with the squad: how can Bednarek, Valery and Stephens still be getting game time? With that defence, it was never going to be tight. Guess ABK isn't up to speed yet. And Djenepo instead of Perraud?!

No need to push the panic button quite yet. Just the first game of the season. I'm still pro Ralph.

But can we sign Coady please?

And a proven striker? Preferably one who's a bit of a beast.

Oh, and another creative player.

And while we're at it, how about shifting Djenepo, Bednarek, Stephens, Valery, Redmond and AA?

[Baird of the land]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

Not about the shape....

 

So happy to be conceding the first two. Wonderful!

[The Cat]

2 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

So happy to be conceding the first two. Wonderful!

I heard him on 5Live basically saying that the first 2 goals were due to defenders not doing their job properly.

The first goal reminded me of the goals we used to let in at that back post when Cedric was defending. Short player out jumped and out muscled by taller player who wanted it more.

Edited 6 August, 2022 by The Cat

[Dman]

1 minute ago, The Cat said:

I heard him on 5Live basically saying that the first 2 goals were due to defenders not doing their job properly.

The first goal reminded me of the goals we used to let in at that back post when Cedric was defending. Short player out jumped and out muscled by taller player who wanted it more.

Still banging this drum then is he. Continuously throwing his players under the bus is old Ralph. 

he’s had 4 years to teach them how to do their job properly. If he can’t, then let’s get someone in who can then please 👍

[vectraman]

I expected us to lose, no surprise there. Spurs are a very decent side, will I’m sure be top four again. 
 

However the concern for me was Spurs didn’t need to play well to beat us. They didn’t get out of third gear, got to 4 up and eased off (thankfully). 
We went 2-1 down, came out at half time and instantly conceded again (offside) thankfully. 
Heads went down at 3-1 and sat there I was convinced 6 or 7 were going past us. Luckily Spurs were done with us, but my word we were so open at the back. Kane was fortunately crap and Son not at his best. 
Could have been so much worse….
 

[Fitzhugh Fella]

10 minutes ago, Suhari said:

I'm trying to be positive: we never win our opening match and Spurs will be pushing for top 4.

The lack of a proper striker really showed today: AA was hopeless: no movement and zero ability to hold up the ball. Powder puff upfront. Guess Adams is off? Why else wouldn't he have been picked (plus the few pre-season run outs).

Still have work to do with the squad: how can Bednarek, Valery and Stephens still be getting game time? With that defence, it was never going to be tight. Guess ABK isn't up to speed yet. And Djenepo instead of Perraud?!

No need to push the panic button quite yet. Just the first game of the season. I'm still pro Ralph.

But can we sign Coady please?

And a proven striker? Preferably one who's a bit of a beast.

Oh, and another creative player.

And while we're at it, how about shifting Djenepo, Bednarek, Stephens, Valery, Redmond and AA?

You are still "pro Ralph"? Crikey. Yes it is the first game of the season but have you forgotten the utter dross we exhibited in the final third of last season? Fans like you worry me. Yes positivity is good and loyalty too, but the writing has been on the wall for a long time now and the longer we ignore it (because Ralph is a nice bloke etc), the deeper the hole we will find ourselves when we finally wake up and smell the roses.

[HarvSFC]

That was pretty miserable, Saints are well and truly back. I feel that the main objectives for the summer transfer window were to sign a starting goalkeeper, a starting centre-back who's ready to come into the first eleven straight away and a quality striker. We've arguably only met the goalkeeper objective and even he struggled to get anywhere close to the Tottenham goals today, not that they were his fault. We've been signing squad centre-backs for years and that's left us with crap like Bednarek and Lyanco filling up the squad alongside the long-serving Stephens. All of which we can't get rid of, and then signing potential like Salisu, who is very much still learning based on all of his performances since January, or is he doing a year long Ramadan?  We needed a Lovren, Alderweireld, Van Dijk this summer. Proven quality, but again we've gone down the potential route who can't get in the team ahead of Valery, or Stephens. Then our sole striker signing, who we've still paid good money for, despite his age couldn't even get in the match squad, unless he's injured? I also think it's fair to say that while Aribo could get away with playing as a striker in Scotland, that it isn't his position in a higher quality league. Too often he was playing with his back to goal, when his best attributes are picking up the ball deep and then running at the defence, which he couldn't do today. It would be like asking Lallana to play as a striker. Lavia did look very good though. Really hard to believe he's only 18, as playing in central midfield in the Premier League as he did today usually takes years of experience. Hopefully he keeps it up.

My biggest defence of Hasenhuttl was that while we weren't winning matches and going on poor runs, for the most part we were still playing well and causing teams issues with our press. It was just crap defending, mistakes that let us down. But, I know that hasn't been the case for most of this year and it's worrying that it's crept into this season, especially with a new coaching team, which I thought could make a difference. The days where we were dominating matches for 45 minutes and then not turning up for the second half were better than this, as at least we got some entertainment for 45 minutes. Today and most of this year, it has been a chore to watch Saints. Passing it around in defence until we give up possession, allowing the opposition to regroup and not having any quality to break them down, only managing two shots on target, while Tottenham had eight. I remember when we were full of energy, forced the opposition into mistakes and didn't give them any room to breathe, Bertrand taking a quick free-kick against Arsenal, passing to Ings and getting a goal from it. But, for some reason those days have gone and we're slow and laborious now. That's when it becomes difficult to support the manager. It's becoming, or has even became what it was like supporting the club under Pellegrino and Hughes. The 4-2-2-2 formation has seen us go on some miserable runs, but it's also seen us go top of the league for the first time and flirt with a European place for a period last season. I would like to largely put the poor runs to a lack of squad depth/quality, and I'm not sure why we've just discarded it and gone to a pretty stale formation that was as dull as dishwater throughout pre-season and now sees us getting pummelled in the Premier League, while we've hardly laid a glove on the opposition. Forster must have been sat on the bench in glee this afternoon. Additionally, our strongest line-up consists of S. Armstrong and Adams. Lord knows what they were doing on the bench today, or why Adams was left as an unused substitute, while we brought five others on instead of him. Crap decisions. We MUST do better next week.

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, OttawaSaint said:

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, egg said:

Do you seriously disagree with him?

I can't imagine you'd have much support in arguing against a CB at CB and a LB at LB rather than the mess we had this afternoon.

So four debutants in the same team and Perraud blowing out of his arse after 55 minutes. Then what, we bring on Djenepo in a back four or change the system completely mid game?

We've gone for a policy of talented but unproven youngsters because it seems to be all we can afford. It could pay off but it’s going to take time and it won’t always be pretty. Two of the goals today came from direct, individual errors from our stalwart players who everyone wanted to start - KWP and Salisu. Nobody was insisting they shouldn’t play before the game and we still concede those goals in a back four or any other system.

[Suhari]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The reason Adams never got on the pitch

 

Nope. I'm not buying that.

 

[Saints foreva]

16 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Not about the shape....

 

Clueless. The shape was shite just as it was in pre-season, 4-1 flattered us. 

There is absolutely no way we should be playing 5 at the back in a winnable home game against Leeds but I suspect we will and it will hinder us going forward massively. 

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, Convict Colony said:

If Ralph picks same team formations next game and gets no result them he should be on thin thin ice. I think he tried today's shit show to minimize goals v top teams which didn't factor in our fuckstick defence.

Next game I want 4-1-2-3 at least or 4-2-2-2 with the extra bodies attacking. 

I want Adams as the main CF, I want Stu and Mr tickle off the wings and I want Mara on the bench Incase we need to go 2 up top.

I of course want salisu and BK as CB monsters with KWP and Perraud on the flanks.

I do think our best 4 is KWP - ABK - Salisu - Perruad.  Stick Lavia and JWP in front of them, Aribo and Armstrong in the 10's and then a toss up of who partners Adams. 

I think Ralph is onto a hiding to nothing if he keeps trying to persist with the same old failures. Moussa, Valery, Bednarek, Armstrong, Redmond etc. We've done a lot this summer but looking at the team we still have to put out, we do still have some significant work to do.

But Ralph needs to stop making it harder for himself than it already is. Some of his decisions in game are baffling and they're getting worse. Sometimes the best rule is to keep it simple, especially when some of the players at your disposal are so incredibly limited.

Edited 6 August, 2022 by S-Clarke

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

Was today a wake-up call to some of our fans that Salisu is not yet all that some of our fans think that he is? Yes, he has potential, but once again he was at the heart of our collapse! Criticise what Ralph says as much as you like (and he clearly needs to accept a significant amount of the blame for what happened today), but in this one area he is right - if Salisu had not been so abject defensively for that goal we would still have been in with a chance in this game.

I really think Salisu can become a quality player and I really hope he will, but he has got to improve sooner rather than later!

Firstly, he must improve his discipline and stay in defence - he is not a makeshift extra striker who can abandon his duties to stroll upfield when he feels like it!

Secondly, he needs to improve his concentration.

Thirdly, he has got to sort his feet out - what a mess he made for that own goal!

Fourth, he must improve his positioning.

It is all very well for him to show skill in the tackle in crisis situations, but too often those crisis situations come as a result of his many other short-comings! Fortunately, these are mostly things that should improve with coaching, training, experience, etc. but it does concern me that other players are being criticised when they are having to cover for him and his failings. Bednarek, Stephens, Valery, maybe even Bella-Kotchap have all had to suffer playing alongside him and have been criticised, yet at times the difficulties they have had have been compounded by having to cover for him. Maybe if Salisu could improve then those other players too could have the freedom to improve themselves and get the fans off their backs.

[The Kraken]

18 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

 

So four debutants in the same team and Perraud blowing out of his arse after 55 minutes. Then what, we bring on Djenepo in a back four or change the system completely mid game?

We were 4-1 down after 63 minutes, so I’m not sure your refusal to look at other options as perhaps being slightly better holds any weight at all.

 

Edited 6 August, 2022 by The Kraken

[egg]

8 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

 

So four debutants in the same team and Perraud blowing out of his arse after 55 minutes. Then what, we bring on Djenepo in a back four or change the system completely mid game?

We've gone for a policy of talented but unproven youngsters because it seems to be all we can afford. It could pay off but it’s going to take time and it won’t always be pretty. Two of the goals today came from direct, individual errors from our stalwart players who everyone wanted to start - KWP and Salisu. Nobody was insisting they shouldn’t play before the game and we still concede those goals in a back four or any other system.

Play your best team.

Players in position.

Bollox to excuses.

The too many debutants line is bullshit...play your best team.

 

[Baird of the land]

10 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I do think our best 4 is KWP - ABK - Salisu - Perruad.  Stick Lavia and JWP in front of them, Aribo and Armstrong in the 10's and then a toss up of who partners Adams. 

I think Ralph is onto a hiding to nothing if he keeps trying to persist with the same old failures. Moussa, Valery, Bednarek, Armstrong, Redmond etc. We've done a lot this summer but looking at the team we still have to put out, we do still have some significant work to do.

But Ralph needs to stop making it harder for himself than it already is. Some of his decisions in game are baffling and they're getting worse. Sometimes the best rule is to keep it simple, especially when some of the players at your disposal are so incredibly limited.

Right now i'd prefer to see Lyanco in the team.

For the moment Up front we should be playing adams and A.Armstrong as a pair.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Baird of the land said:

Right now i'd prefer to see Lyanco in the team.

For the moment Up front we should be playing adams and A.Armstrong as a pair.

I think we need to bring some calmness into our game, not sure Lyanco brings that. 

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Play your best team.

Players in position.

Bollox to excuses.

The too many debutants line is bullshit...play your best team.

 

So who’s missing from our ‘best team’? A CB who’s never played in England before and an unfit LB who’s probably good for an hour, max?

Who was out of position, aside from a LWB when we had no fully fit LBs?